RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[The Big O]

Same story. You and the majority of us know the answer.

And to the person who's tempted to do the predictable quoting of my above sentence to state the wrong answer in an effort to be witty, well, you're wrong.

Let's just say this. Lebron came in at the perfect time, so that as he hit his prime, the rest of the few ATG superstars in the league were on the tail end of their career. For a stretch, were no superstars in the Eastern conference aside from Paul George and briefly, Derrick Rose and he even had more superstars on his own team than the entire conference. Even in the finals he won, he played a very old Spurs starting line up. Put him in a different era and he's not going to be able to gift himself championships in free agency.

Categorically false. The back end of the 90's was considerably weaker than the league during LeBron's era. Top-end talent was also better in LeBron's era. And ofc James' finals opponents were considerably stronger than Jordan's.

[One_and_Done]

Lebron would be higher, as he is in reality anyway.

[SlimShady83]

Always MJ

[Ainosterhaspie]

A bunch of guys in the top 10 played against other top 10 guys and still earned their spots despite losses to those guys and other teams, so LeBron and Jordan could certainly simultaneously climb the ATG ladder.

[Asianiac_24]

Depends on their H2H, but i'm picking Bron

[jerok]

In any draft, MJ, to me, will always better the better player. Even 100 years from now.

Only in the NBA where everything stalls after the 90s.

Imagine making this statement in any other sports, you'd sound pretty stupid .

[jerok]

MJ's stats would be even better with the faster pace league and rule changes that would help him. I think it would be an even bigger gap than what it is now.

Just tells us how much you know about defences played in 90s vs today.

[MavsDirk41]

MJ's stats would be even better with the faster pace league and rule changes that would help him. I think it would be an even bigger gap than what it is now.

Just tells us how much you know about defences played in 90s vs today.

Watching slow Luka scortch defenses today i forgot that any teams played much defense

[ScrantonBulls]

MJ's stats would be even better with the faster pace league and rule changes that would help him. I think it would be an even bigger gap than what it is now.

Just tells us how much you know about defences played in 90s vs today.

Watching slow Luka scortch defenses today i forgot that any teams played much defense

Because Magic and Larry were such lightening quick players in the 80s, right? Just such an unbelievably bad post per usual.

[SlimShady83]

Before quoting, watch the video first... Do you agree with this youtuber?

Watch on YouTube

[bledredwine]

How many different ways can this question be asked?

What's next?


"If Lebron and MJ switched bodies like Jamie Lee Curtis and Linsdey Lohan in the hit 2003 movie Freaky Friday, who would be the GOAT?"

If you gave Lebron jet wings and three championships, and Jordan roller blades, who would be better?

[bledredwine]

Same story. You and the majority of us know the answer.

And to the person who's tempted to do the predictable quoting of my above sentence to state the wrong answer in an effort to be witty, well, you're wrong.

Let's just say this. Lebron came in at the perfect time, so that as he hit his prime, the rest of the few ATG superstars in the league were on the tail end of their career. For a stretch, were no superstars in the Eastern conference aside from Paul George and briefly, Derrick Rose and he even had more superstars on his own team than the entire conference. Even in the finals he won, he played a very old Spurs starting line up. Put him in a different era and he's not going to be able to gift himself championships in free agency.

Categorically false. The back end of the 90's was considerably weaker than the league during LeBron's era. Top-end talent was also better in LeBron's era. And ofc James' finals opponents were considerably stronger than Jordan's.

Wrong, and why would cross era players say the opposite?
I've heard all of Kidd, Kobe and KG call it a tougher era.

And why were these players so successful after the 90s? You would think that just one of them would beast the 90s.
Even Shaq didn't truly shine until the 00s.

Name the prime superstars in the 2010's along the lines of Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Penny, Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Richmond, Miller, Ewing and so on.

[pepe1991]

Same story. You and the majority of us know the answer.

And to the person who's tempted to do the predictable quoting of my above sentence to state the wrong answer in an effort to be witty, well, you're wrong.

Let's just say this. Lebron came in at the perfect time, so that as he hit his prime, the rest of the few ATG superstars in the league were on the tail end of their career. For a stretch, were no superstars in the Eastern conference aside from Paul George and briefly, Derrick Rose and he even had more superstars on his own team than the entire conference. Even in the finals he won, he played a very old Spurs starting line up. Put him in a different era and he's not going to be able to gift himself championships in free agency.

Categorically false. The back end of the 90's was considerably weaker than the league during LeBron's era. Top-end talent was also better in LeBron's era. And ofc James' finals opponents were considerably stronger than Jordan's.

Wrong, and why would cross era players say the opposite?
I've heard all of Kidd, Kobe and KG call it a tougher era.

And why were these players so successful after the 90s? You would think that just one of them would beast the 90s.
Even Shaq didn't truly shine until the 00s.

Name the prime superstars in the 2010's along the lines of Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Penny, Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Richmond, Miller, Ewing and so on.

2010 for example had some of most random allstar selections possible
Starters:
Iverson (34) way passed his prime, traded around, averaged sub 15 ppg
KG (33), averaging 14 ppg

bench:
Gerald Wallace
David Lee
Jason Kidd (36, averaged 10 ppg )
Zach Randolph
Chris Kaman
Rondo (13,7 ppg, 9,8 apg)

20
2008 and 2009 allstar had even more random names. Davin Harris, Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson, Antawn Jamison, Carlos Boozer, Caron Butler, Rasheed Wallace (12 ppg , 6,6 rpg ).

Competition in late 2000s & early 2010s was nowhere near as elite as some people make it out to be.

[bledredwine]

Categorically false. The back end of the 90's was considerably weaker than the league during LeBron's era. Top-end talent was also better in LeBron's era. And ofc James' finals opponents were considerably stronger than Jordan's.

Wrong, and why would cross era players say the opposite?
I've heard all of Kidd, Kobe and KG call it a tougher era.

And why were these players so successful after the 90s? You would think that just one of them would beast the 90s.
Even Shaq didn't truly shine until the 00s.

Name the prime superstars in the 2010's along the lines of Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Penny, Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Richmond, Miller, Ewing and so on.

2010 for example had some of most random allstar selections possible
Starters:
Iverson (34) way passed his prime, traded around, averaged sub 15 ppg
KG (33), averaging 14 ppg

bench:
Gerald Wallace
David Lee
Jason Kidd (36, averaged 10 ppg )
Zach Randolph
Chris Kaman
Rondo (13,7 ppg, 9,8 apg)

20
2008 and 2009 allstar had even more random names. Davin Harris, Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson, Antawn Jamison, Carlos Boozer, Caron Butler, Rasheed Wallace (12 ppg , 6,6 rpg ).

Competition in late 2000s & early 2010s was nowhere near as elite as some people make it out to be.

Exactly. I totally forgot about that but you're spot on.
Didn't the dream team have Deandre Jordan of all people?

What about grandpa Kobe? He was killing it and scored 60 in his final game.
He states the 90s was the tough era himself, as did Kidd, as did Nash, who even stated "Then when they banned hand checking, I really took off" and credited a lot of his scoring to rule changes.

And then there are players like Ray Allen, KG, Horry, Artest, of course, all of who not only say Jordan was better, but use words like
"by far" or "definitely"

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

lol at the concept of 2010's being tough, when the 11 year old Spurs lineup absolutely dominated to win the chip, and would have had 2 if it wasn't for 90s player Ray Allen hitting that 3.

[The Big O]

Same story. You and the majority of us know the answer.

And to the person who's tempted to do the predictable quoting of my above sentence to state the wrong answer in an effort to be witty, well, you're wrong.

Let's just say this. Lebron came in at the perfect time, so that as he hit his prime, the rest of the few ATG superstars in the league were on the tail end of their career. For a stretch, were no superstars in the Eastern conference aside from Paul George and briefly, Derrick Rose and he even had more superstars on his own team than the entire conference. Even in the finals he won, he played a very old Spurs starting line up. Put him in a different era and he's not going to be able to gift himself championships in free agency.

Categorically false. The back end of the 90's was considerably weaker than the league during LeBron's era. Top-end talent was also better in LeBron's era. And ofc James' finals opponents were considerably stronger than Jordan's.

Wrong, and why would cross era players say the opposite?
I've heard all of Kidd, Kobe and KG call it a tougher era.

And why were these players so successful after the 90s? You would think that just one of them would beast the 90s.
Even Shaq didn't truly shine until the 00s.

Name the prime superstars in the 2010's along the lines of Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Penny, Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Richmond, Miller, Ewing and so on.

Because ex-players say random things all the time?

Shaq didn't truly shine until the 2000's? Are we talking about the same Shaq who came out of the gate as a 30/18 per 100 on 58 TS% as a 20 year old rookie in the 90's?

Prime superstars in the 2010's along those names? Kevin Durant, Steph Curry, LeBron James, James Harden, Anthony Davis, Kawhi Leonard, Chris Paul, Giannis Antetokounmpo, etc. etc. Top-end talent was easily better in the past decade. LOl@ throwing in Mitch Richmond and Reggie Miller.

[The Big O]

Categorically false. The back end of the 90's was considerably weaker than the league during LeBron's era. Top-end talent was also better in LeBron's era. And ofc James' finals opponents were considerably stronger than Jordan's.

Wrong, and why would cross era players say the opposite?
I've heard all of Kidd, Kobe and KG call it a tougher era.

And why were these players so successful after the 90s? You would think that just one of them would beast the 90s.
Even Shaq didn't truly shine until the 00s.

Name the prime superstars in the 2010's along the lines of Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Penny, Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Richmond, Miller, Ewing and so on.

2010 for example had some of most random allstar selections possible
Starters:
Iverson (34) way passed his prime, traded around, averaged sub 15 ppg
KG (33), averaging 14 ppg

bench:
Gerald Wallace
David Lee
Jason Kidd (36, averaged 10 ppg )
Zach Randolph
Chris Kaman
Rondo (13,7 ppg, 9,8 apg)

20
2008 and 2009 allstar had even more random names. Davin Harris, Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson, Antawn Jamison, Carlos Boozer, Caron Butler, Rasheed Wallace (12 ppg , 6,6 rpg ).

Competition in late 2000s & early 2010s was nowhere near as elite as some people make it out to be.

Weird argument, especially the inclusion of some popularity based all star inclusions.

Quick glance of some 1990's nba all-stars yields tons of hilarious names:

Hershey Hawkins
Ricky Pierce
BJ Armstrong
DAnny Manning
Cliff Robinson
Ced Ceballos

Good luck getting those guys to sniff the all star games in the 2010's.

[The Big O]

Wrong, and why would cross era players say the opposite?
I've heard all of Kidd, Kobe and KG call it a tougher era.

And why were these players so successful after the 90s? You would think that just one of them would beast the 90s.
Even Shaq didn't truly shine until the 00s.

Name the prime superstars in the 2010's along the lines of Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Penny, Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Richmond, Miller, Ewing and so on.

2010 for example had some of most random allstar selections possible
Starters:
Iverson (34) way passed his prime, traded around, averaged sub 15 ppg
KG (33), averaging 14 ppg

bench:
Gerald Wallace
David Lee
Jason Kidd (36, averaged 10 ppg )
Zach Randolph
Chris Kaman
Rondo (13,7 ppg, 9,8 apg)

20
2008 and 2009 allstar had even more random names. Davin Harris, Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson, Antawn Jamison, Carlos Boozer, Caron Butler, Rasheed Wallace (12 ppg , 6,6 rpg ).

Competition in late 2000s & early 2010s was nowhere near as elite as some people make it out to be.

Exactly. I totally forgot about that but you're spot on.
Didn't the dream team have Deandre Jordan of all people?

What about grandpa Kobe? He was killing it and scored 60 in his final game.
He states the 90s was the tough era himself, as did Kidd, as did Nash, who even stated "Then when they banned hand checking, I really took off" and credited a lot of his scoring to rule changes.

And then there are players like Ray Allen, KG, Horry, Artest, of course, all of who not only say Jordan was better, but use words like
"by far" or "definitely"

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

lol at the concept of 2010's being tough, when the 11 year old Spurs lineup absolutely dominated to win the chip, and would have had 2 if it wasn't for 90s player Ray Allen hitting that 3.

Another meaningless post, YouTube videos of ex-players saying things is baseless argument because there's equally absurd stuff being said on the other side.

Weird stance to demean the 2010 Spurs when they literally posted some of the best net ratings in NBA history.

[bledredwine]

2010 for example had some of most random allstar selections possible
Starters:
Iverson (34) way passed his prime, traded around, averaged sub 15 ppg
KG (33), averaging 14 ppg

bench:
Gerald Wallace
David Lee
Jason Kidd (36, averaged 10 ppg )
Zach Randolph
Chris Kaman
Rondo (13,7 ppg, 9,8 apg)

20
2008 and 2009 allstar had even more random names. Davin Harris, Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson, Antawn Jamison, Carlos Boozer, Caron Butler, Rasheed Wallace (12 ppg , 6,6 rpg ).

Competition in late 2000s & early 2010s was nowhere near as elite as some people make it out to be.

Exactly. I totally forgot about that but you're spot on.
Didn't the dream team have Deandre Jordan of all people?

What about grandpa Kobe? He was killing it and scored 60 in his final game.
He states the 90s was the tough era himself, as did Kidd, as did Nash, who even stated "Then when they banned hand checking, I really took off" and credited a lot of his scoring to rule changes.

And then there are players like Ray Allen, KG, Horry, Artest, of course, all of who not only say Jordan was better, but use words like
"by far" or "definitely"

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

lol at the concept of 2010's being tough, when the 11 year old Spurs lineup absolutely dominated to win the chip, and would have had 2 if it wasn't for 90s player Ray Allen hitting that 3.

Another meaningless post, YouTube videos of ex-players saying things is baseless argument because there's equally absurd stuff being said on the other side.

Weird stance to demean the 2010 Spurs when they literally posted some of the best net ratings in NBA history.

NBA players who played against. both, giving their take, meaningless?

Nah. Your (and my) posts on this forum are a lot more meaningless than Ray Allen's words.
And it would be one thing if it truly was equal on both sides, but nearly all players I've seen who actually played
against Jordan and Lebron say Jordan.

It's so lopsided. So no, not meaningless, though you want it to be.

[pepe1991]

Wrong, and why would cross era players say the opposite?
I've heard all of Kidd, Kobe and KG call it a tougher era.

And why were these players so successful after the 90s? You would think that just one of them would beast the 90s.
Even Shaq didn't truly shine until the 00s.

Name the prime superstars in the 2010's along the lines of Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Penny, Shaq, Drexler, Malone, Stockton, Richmond, Miller, Ewing and so on.

2010 for example had some of most random allstar selections possible
Starters:
Iverson (34) way passed his prime, traded around, averaged sub 15 ppg
KG (33), averaging 14 ppg

bench:
Gerald Wallace
David Lee
Jason Kidd (36, averaged 10 ppg )
Zach Randolph
Chris Kaman
Rondo (13,7 ppg, 9,8 apg)

20
2008 and 2009 allstar had even more random names. Davin Harris, Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson, Antawn Jamison, Carlos Boozer, Caron Butler, Rasheed Wallace (12 ppg , 6,6 rpg ).

Competition in late 2000s & early 2010s was nowhere near as elite as some people make it out to be.

Weird argument, especially the inclusion of some popularity based all star inclusions.

Quick glance of some 1990's nba all-stars yields tons of hilarious names:

Hershey Hawkins
Ricky Pierce
BJ Armstrong
DAnny Manning
Cliff Robinson
Ced Ceballos

Good luck getting those guys to sniff the all star games in the 2010's.

Your post just shows your ignorence and lack of basketball knowledge.

Hershey Hawkins in his *sophmore* year was second leading scorer of 53 wins team led by Barkley and went to second round of playoffs, in playoffs he averaged 23,5 ppg.
In his allstar season, he was 13# in scoring . Do you know who is 13# scorer in 2023-24. Lebron

RIcky Pierce was pretty much modern day Ginobili. Instant offense from bench and microvawe scorer.
At age of 33 he was *leading scorer of 55 wins team that went to nba Western Conference Finals* . Guy is one of best 6th men's in nba history.

Danny Manning - literally made allstar as 10th best scorer that year - 10th scorer this year, well that tall chubby guy named Nikola ( not Vučević lol )

Cliff Robinson , for start guy averaged 18 or more times - 8 seasons, 20 ppg - 3 seasons. Guy was all second nba team member, 6th man of a year, got DPOY votes and lasted 17 seasons, going from 1989 to late 2000s, crossing 3 decades, playing ECF and nba finals ( twice, once even as a rookie). Guy was 36 and started on 55 wins PIstons. You make it sound like guy is some random nobody.


Ced Ceballos was leading scorer on 1995 Lakers that went to second round and won 48 games. Always enough to be allstar

Non of this guy comes close as bad as allstar Cris Kaman, guy who was allstar by averaging 18 ppg on 29 wins team OR Gerald Wallace who played 33 playoff games in his entire career .
Only trully bad allstar you picked is BJ Armstrong, but even he was on Jordanless Bulls and won 55 games. Still not as bad as damn Kaman allstar.


Lebron also joined one of his biggest rivals , who already won championship without him.
Just year before Lebron joined Heat this is what Wade , individually achived :
- 5th in MVP votes
- all nba first team
- defensive second team
- all defensive second team
- 10th in DPOY

Heat won 47 games

Year BEFORE that, Wade was 3rd in MVP race

Lebron made GOAT race all about ring count, created player's movment, hooped from one team to another, 20 years later still can't catch Jordan's rings. Despite fact he played with multiple players who were considered top 10 ( or even top 5 ) in that moment.

[jerok]

MJ's stats would be even better with the faster pace league and rule changes that would help him. I think it would be an even bigger gap than what it is now.

Just tells us how much you know about defences played in 90s vs today.

Watching slow Luka scortch defenses today i forgot that any teams played much defense

Ya Luka ain't a plumber and you still don't know how what illegal defense is after all this time. Go watch some more VHS tapes.