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ScrantonBulls wrote:MavsDirk41 wrote:jerok wrote:
Just tells us how much you know about defences played in 90s vs today.
Watching slow Luka scortch defenses today i forgot that any teams played much defense
Because Magic and Larry were such lightening quick players in the 80s, right? Just such an unbelievably bad post per usual.
Code: Select all
Player All-Star Teammates All-Star Opponents Net
Steph Curry 83 34 +49
Shaquille O'Neal 93 54 +39
Kevin Durant 78 40 +38
Magic Johnson 101 58 +43
Larry Bird 75 42 +33
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 110 81 +29
Kobe Bryant 80 55 +25
LeBron James 109 89 +20
Bill Russell 86 72 +14
Karl Malone 60 51 +9
George Mikan 33 24 +9
Jerry West 72 63 +9
Kevin Garnett 49 42 +7
Julius Erving 80 74 +6
Wilt Chamberlain 75 69 +6
Tim Duncan 67 64 +3
Michael Jordan 56 58 -2
Oscar Robertson 38 42 -4
Hakeem Olajuwon 41 46 -5
Nikola Jokic 14 20 -6pepe1991 wrote:The Big O wrote:pepe1991 wrote:
2010 for example had some of most random allstar selections possible
Starters:
Iverson (34) way passed his prime, traded around, averaged sub 15 ppg
KG (33), averaging 14 ppg
bench:
Gerald Wallace
David Lee
Jason Kidd (36, averaged 10 ppg )
Zach Randolph
Chris Kaman
Rondo (13,7 ppg, 9,8 apg)
20
2008 and 2009 allstar had even more random names. Davin Harris, Mo Williams, Jameer Nelson, Antawn Jamison, Carlos Boozer, Caron Butler, Rasheed Wallace (12 ppg , 6,6 rpg ).
Competition in late 2000s & early 2010s was nowhere near as elite as some people make it out to be.
Weird argument, especially the inclusion of some popularity based all star inclusions.
Quick glance of some 1990's nba all-stars yields tons of hilarious names:
Hershey Hawkins
Ricky Pierce
BJ Armstrong
DAnny Manning
Cliff Robinson
Ced Ceballos
Good luck getting those guys to sniff the all star games in the 2010's.
Your post just shows your ignorence and lack of basketball knowledge.
Hershey Hawkins in his *sophmore* year was second leading scorer of 53 wins team led by Barkley and went to second round of playoffs, in playoffs he averaged 23,5 ppg.
In his allstar season, he was 13# in scoring . Do you know who is 13# scorer in 2023-24. Lebron
RIcky Pierce was pretty much modern day Ginobili. Instant offense from bench and microvawe scorer.
At age of 33 he was *leading scorer of 55 wins team that went to nba Western Conference Finals* . Guy is one of best 6th men's in nba history.
Danny Manning - literally made allstar as 10th best scorer that year - 10th scorer this year, well that tall chubby guy named Nikola ( not Vučević lol )
Cliff Robinson , for start guy averaged 18 or more times - 8 seasons, 20 ppg - 3 seasons. Guy was all second nba team member, 6th man of a year, got DPOY votes and lasted 17 seasons, going from 1989 to late 2000s, crossing 3 decades, playing ECF and nba finals ( twice, once even as a rookie). Guy was 36 and started on 55 wins PIstons. You make it sound like guy is some random nobody.
Ced Ceballos was leading scorer on 1995 Lakers that went to second round and won 48 games. Always enough to be allstar
Non of this guy comes close as bad as allstar Cris Kaman, guy who was allstar by averaging 18 ppg on 29 wins team OR Gerald Wallace who played 33 playoff games in his entire career .
Only trully bad allstar you picked is BJ Armstrong, but even he was on Jordanless Bulls and won 55 games. Still not as bad as damn Kaman allstar.
Lebron also joined one of his biggest rivals , who already won championship without him.
Just year before Lebron joined Heat this is what Wade , individually achived :
- 5th in MVP votes
- all nba first team
- defensive second team
- all defensive second team
- 10th in DPOY
Heat won 47 games
Year BEFORE that, Wade was 3rd in MVP race
Lebron made GOAT race all about ring count, created player's movment, hooped from one team to another, 20 years later still can't catch Jordan's rings. Despite fact he played with multiple players who were considered top 10 ( or even top 5 ) in that moment.
, then you had the audacity to assert that LeBron was playing with prime Wade his entire time in Miami (hint WAde was definitely not top 10 post 2011). What other top ten players had he played with outside of Anthony Davis in 2020? Please enlighten us.
The Big O wrote:pepe1991 wrote:The Big O wrote:
Weird argument, especially the inclusion of some popularity based all star inclusions.
Quick glance of some 1990's nba all-stars yields tons of hilarious names:
Hershey Hawkins
Ricky Pierce
BJ Armstrong
DAnny Manning
Cliff Robinson
Ced Ceballos
Good luck getting those guys to sniff the all star games in the 2010's.
Your post just shows your ignorence and lack of basketball knowledge.
Hershey Hawkins in his *sophmore* year was second leading scorer of 53 wins team led by Barkley and went to second round of playoffs, in playoffs he averaged 23,5 ppg.
In his allstar season, he was 13# in scoring . Do you know who is 13# scorer in 2023-24. Lebron
RIcky Pierce was pretty much modern day Ginobili. Instant offense from bench and microvawe scorer.
At age of 33 he was *leading scorer of 55 wins team that went to nba Western Conference Finals* . Guy is one of best 6th men's in nba history.
Danny Manning - literally made allstar as 10th best scorer that year - 10th scorer this year, well that tall chubby guy named Nikola ( not Vučević lol )
Cliff Robinson , for start guy averaged 18 or more times - 8 seasons, 20 ppg - 3 seasons. Guy was all second nba team member, 6th man of a year, got DPOY votes and lasted 17 seasons, going from 1989 to late 2000s, crossing 3 decades, playing ECF and nba finals ( twice, once even as a rookie). Guy was 36 and started on 55 wins PIstons. You make it sound like guy is some random nobody.
Ced Ceballos was leading scorer on 1995 Lakers that went to second round and won 48 games. Always enough to be allstar
Non of this guy comes close as bad as allstar Cris Kaman, guy who was allstar by averaging 18 ppg on 29 wins team OR Gerald Wallace who played 33 playoff games in his entire career .
Only trully bad allstar you picked is BJ Armstrong, but even he was on Jordanless Bulls and won 55 games. Still not as bad as damn Kaman allstar.
Lebron also joined one of his biggest rivals , who already won championship without him.
Just year before Lebron joined Heat this is what Wade , individually achived :
- 5th in MVP votes
- all nba first team
- defensive second team
- all defensive second team
- 10th in DPOY
Heat won 47 games
Year BEFORE that, Wade was 3rd in MVP race
Lebron made GOAT race all about ring count, created player's movment, hooped from one team to another, 20 years later still can't catch Jordan's rings. Despite fact he played with multiple players who were considered top 10 ( or even top 5 ) in that moment.
So much fail in your post. Comparing Ricky Pierce to Manu Ginobili is bad enough
Your propping up an era that had Vin Baker and Juwan Howard make all-nba teams and then call my basketball knowledge ignorant.
The High Cyde wrote:At this point, it’s obvious Bron is the GOAT to me. No one is matching 6/6 that Jordan did, it’ll never happen again, and there were unique circumstances that made it happen. If 6/6 is what tickles your fancy, then congrats Bill Russell is your GOAT.
Back then, Jordan was the unquestioned best player in the world, with the best coach in the league, a front office that put winning above Jordan’s wishes so the team was always a well oiled machine, they drafted Pippen who became one of the best defenders of all time, and the league due to expansion was weak. Given Jordan’s drive and the above, they were bound to win a ton. The league that Bron has played in has significantly more talent, teams are smarter, schemes are more intricate than just the simple triangle that the Bulls would spam, amount of area to cover on defense is a lot more, players today are replacing previous all time players on the list. Jordan would find it a lot harder to win the storybook 6/6 in todays league. Now, put Bron on those Bulls team and he probably decimates the league more than Jordan did, because he is easier to mold, he’s much more adaptable, and his drive to win is just as high as Jordans. LeBron would win like 8 rings if he played in the 90s in Jordans place, cause he wouldn’t quit the sport in the middle of his prime, he’d want more and more. Bron is now the all time leading scorer and he’s still adding to it, his peak is as good as Jordan’s and his prime is now like twice as long. He could legit play all five positions if needed. We all remember him handling a legit center in Pau Gasol, who was no slouch.
It’s not a crazy position anymore, Bron has a legit case for GOAT. But it’s perfectly fine if Jordan is your number 1, or Kareem, or whoever, it’s subjective. To me it’s Bron *shrug*
pepe1991 wrote:The High Cyde wrote:At this point, it’s obvious Bron is the GOAT to me. No one is matching 6/6 that Jordan did, it’ll never happen again, and there were unique circumstances that made it happen. If 6/6 is what tickles your fancy, then congrats Bill Russell is your GOAT.
Back then, Jordan was the unquestioned best player in the world, with the best coach in the league, a front office that put winning above Jordan’s wishes so the team was always a well oiled machine, they drafted Pippen who became one of the best defenders of all time, and the league due to expansion was weak. Given Jordan’s drive and the above, they were bound to win a ton. The league that Bron has played in has significantly more talent, teams are smarter, schemes are more intricate than just the simple triangle that the Bulls would spam, amount of area to cover on defense is a lot more, players today are replacing previous all time players on the list. Jordan would find it a lot harder to win the storybook 6/6 in todays league. Now, put Bron on those Bulls team and he probably decimates the league more than Jordan did, because he is easier to mold, he’s much more adaptable, and his drive to win is just as high as Jordans. LeBron would win like 8 rings if he played in the 90s in Jordans place, cause he wouldn’t quit the sport in the middle of his prime, he’d want more and more. Bron is now the all time leading scorer and he’s still adding to it, his peak is as good as Jordan’s and his prime is now like twice as long. He could legit play all five positions if needed. We all remember him handling a legit center in Pau Gasol, who was no slouch.
It’s not a crazy position anymore, Bron has a legit case for GOAT. But it’s perfectly fine if Jordan is your number 1, or Kareem, or whoever, it’s subjective. To me it’s Bron *shrug*
All things you said just makes even stronger case for Jordan.
Jordan played less. Won more championships.
Jordan played less- won more MVPs
Jordan played less- and is still bigger global name than Lebron.
Jordan retired in middle of his prime- because he had nothing to prove. Lebron is in his +20 years and he still can't prove he is GOAT, because he isn't and because he will never catch 6 rings nor had aura & magnitude of stardom that Jordan had. He is leading scorer mostly because he is one of few players that lasted +20 points a game ,and in his favor works fact that teams play no defense in regular season and 50 different players are nowdays +20 ppg scorers.
Difference between Jordan and Lebron is fact that Jordan was the most popular athlete in the world. Lebron is not even more popular than Messi, Ronaldo, and kind a never was. There was time where Federer was more popular than Lebron, actually so popular that they couldn't put him in Olympic village because other athletes just wanted to hang up with him.
When Jordan left , before that sorry Wizards years, league felt it.
Bulls last game in 1998 , game 6, was in US alone watched by whooping 35 000 000 (NBC).- the most watched nba game ever.
Year after, in finals of 1999, most watched nba finals game had- 17 000 000.
This downfall continued for years, including Cavs- Spurs 2007 , with young Lebron, that series had horrid viewership. Lebron-played finals only exploded in terms of viewership once, in that game 7 vs Warriors, but also reached it's all time lowest number in 2020 (ablet, nothing to do with Lebron, everything to do with global panic ).
League won't feel big loss in terms of popularity Lebron leaves, his current reign is way more similar to Wizard-Jordan, saving grace and difference only being one has Anthony Davis to at least be somewhat competitive in playoffs ( until great Serbian walks in) and other had... Rip Hamilton
And last aspect is simply that "myth " of Jordan. Teams , hall of famers were broken and went ringless because of Jordan.
Hakeem, one of most talented centers in history only menaged to win championship once Jordan retired.
Patrick Ewing probably still has nightmares from Jordan ( lost 68 out of 97 times he met him ).
Best pick&roll duo ever- Malone & Stockton never menaged to break through because of Jordan.
Charles Barkley , Kevin Johnson after winning 62 games, still lost to Jordan.
Reggie Miller, Pacers , win 58 games, lose in ECF in 1998.
Who execlly Lebron "ruined"?
Durant still won 2 rings.
Curry won as many rings as Lebron, actually beat him 3 times in 4 meetings.
Kawhi established himself as finals MVP - by beating him in 2014 ( won one more ring )
Jokic won first championship by sweeping old Lebron
Dirk won his by going through Lebron
Duncan beat him 2 times in 3 meetings
Who are we left with? Myth of Derrick Rose, who's career died at age of 23. Harden? Guy lost more times to Curry than Lebron in playoffs. Westbrook? Guy never passed first round of playoffs without Durant. Fluky P and Roy Hibbert in 2012?
For record sake, i have Lebron at 2#. Lebron would never even become global megastar if there wasn't Jordan who made NBA global sport.
Olympic Games 1992 changed NBA forever. Not just for Europien & international audience, but for US audience as well, to this date, it's still one of most watched event of all time (and most watched Olympics).
Even when Space Jam dropped it was massive hit, making x3 of orginal budget ( fun fact, it made more money, without adjusting to inflation than Lebron's one ).
10 years from now, people will still play in Jordan shoes. Lebron will be one of players who's name pops when they put comparisons for draft about 6'8 people who can handle the ball. Pretty much happend to Kobe, people forgot about him in 2 yeras ( until tragedy happend).
xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:This thread is the greatest thing to ever happen to RealGM.
Haven’t read any of it, but love that it’s all here instead of new threads every day about the same thing.
xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:This thread is the greatest thing to ever happen to RealGM.
Haven’t read any of it, but love that it’s all here instead of new threads every day about the same thing.
GSWFan1994 wrote:xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:This thread is the greatest thing to ever happen to RealGM.
Haven’t read any of it, but love that it’s all here instead of new threads every day about the same thing.
Those threads still keep happening... daily!
pepe1991 wrote:The High Cyde wrote:At this point, it’s obvious Bron is the GOAT to me. No one is matching 6/6 that Jordan did, it’ll never happen again, and there were unique circumstances that made it happen. If 6/6 is what tickles your fancy, then congrats Bill Russell is your GOAT.
Back then, Jordan was the unquestioned best player in the world, with the best coach in the league, a front office that put winning above Jordan’s wishes so the team was always a well oiled machine, they drafted Pippen who became one of the best defenders of all time, and the league due to expansion was weak. Given Jordan’s drive and the above, they were bound to win a ton. The league that Bron has played in has significantly more talent, teams are smarter, schemes are more intricate than just the simple triangle that the Bulls would spam, amount of area to cover on defense is a lot more, players today are replacing previous all time players on the list. Jordan would find it a lot harder to win the storybook 6/6 in todays league. Now, put Bron on those Bulls team and he probably decimates the league more than Jordan did, because he is easier to mold, he’s much more adaptable, and his drive to win is just as high as Jordans. LeBron would win like 8 rings if he played in the 90s in Jordans place, cause he wouldn’t quit the sport in the middle of his prime, he’d want more and more. Bron is now the all time leading scorer and he’s still adding to it, his peak is as good as Jordan’s and his prime is now like twice as long. He could legit play all five positions if needed. We all remember him handling a legit center in Pau Gasol, who was no slouch.
It’s not a crazy position anymore, Bron has a legit case for GOAT. But it’s perfectly fine if Jordan is your number 1, or Kareem, or whoever, it’s subjective. To me it’s Bron *shrug*
All things you said just makes even stronger case for Jordan.
Jordan played less. Won more championships.
Jordan played less- won more MVPs
Jordan played less- and is still bigger global name than Lebron.
Jordan retired in middle of his prime- because he had nothing to prove. Lebron is in his +20 years and he still can't prove he is GOAT, because he isn't and because he will never catch 6 rings nor had aura & magnitude of stardom that Jordan had. He is leading scorer mostly because he is one of few players that lasted +20 points a game ,and in his favor works fact that teams play no defense in regular season and 50 different players are nowdays +20 ppg scorers.
Difference between Jordan and Lebron is fact that Jordan was the most popular athlete in the world. Lebron is not even more popular than Messi, Ronaldo, and kind a never was. There was time where Federer was more popular than Lebron, actually so popular that they couldn't put him in Olympic village because other athletes just wanted to hang up with him.
When Jordan left , before that sorry Wizards years, league felt it.
Bulls last game in 1998 , game 6, was in US alone watched by whooping 35 000 000 (NBC).- the most watched nba game ever.
Year after, in finals of 1999, most watched nba finals game had- 17 000 000.
This downfall continued for years, including Cavs- Spurs 2007 , with young Lebron, that series had horrid viewership. Lebron-played finals only exploded in terms of viewership once, in that game 7 vs Warriors, but also reached it's all time lowest number in 2020 (ablet, nothing to do with Lebron, everything to do with global panic ).
League won't feel big loss in terms of popularity Lebron leaves, his current reign is way more similar to Wizard-Jordan, saving grace and difference only being one has Anthony Davis to at least be somewhat competitive in playoffs ( until great Serbian walks in) and other had... Rip Hamilton
And last aspect is simply that "myth " of Jordan. Teams , hall of famers were broken and went ringless because of Jordan.
Hakeem, one of most talented centers in history only menaged to win championship once Jordan retired.
Patrick Ewing probably still has nightmares from Jordan ( lost 68 out of 97 times he met him ).
Best pick&roll duo ever- Malone & Stockton never menaged to break through because of Jordan.
Charles Barkley , Kevin Johnson after winning 62 games, still lost to Jordan.
Reggie Miller, Pacers , win 58 games, lose in ECF in 1998.
Who execlly Lebron "ruined"?
Durant still won 2 rings.
Curry won as many rings as Lebron, actually beat him 3 times in 4 meetings.
Kawhi established himself as finals MVP - by beating him in 2014 ( won one more ring )
Jokic won first championship by sweeping old Lebron
Dirk won his by going through Lebron
Duncan beat him 2 times in 3 meetings
Who are we left with? Myth of Derrick Rose, who's career died at age of 23. Harden? Guy lost more times to Curry than Lebron in playoffs. Westbrook? Guy never passed first round of playoffs without Durant. Fluky P and Roy Hibbert in 2012?
For record sake, i have Lebron at 2#. Lebron would never even become global megastar if there wasn't Jordan who made NBA global sport.
Olympic Games 1992 changed NBA forever. Not just for Europien & international audience, but for US audience as well, to this date, it's still one of most watched event of all time (and most watched Olympics).
Even when Space Jam dropped it was massive hit, making x3 of orginal budget ( fun fact, it made more money, without adjusting to inflation than Lebron's one ).
10 years from now, people will still play in Jordan shoes. Lebron will be one of players who's name pops when they put comparisons for draft about 6'8 people who can handle the ball. Pretty much happend to Kobe, people forgot about him in 2 yeras ( until tragedy happend).
LeBron is 0-7 in game winning/tying FGs in the finals. And is 20/116 or 17% in game winning/tying FGs in the 4th/OT for his career. That's historically bad SlimShady83 wrote:GSWFan1994 wrote:xxSnEaKyPxx wrote:This thread is the greatest thing to ever happen to RealGM.
Haven’t read any of it, but love that it’s all here instead of new threads every day about the same thing.
Those threads still keep happening... daily!
I'm curious to know If anyone Is actually counting, I tried, but It's hard to keep up with lmao.
LeBron is 0-7 in game winning/tying FGs in the finals. And is 20/116 or 17% in game winning/tying FGs in the 4th/OT for his career. That's historically bad Effigy wrote:It’s Jordan for me, but Bron is RIGHT there. It’s not cut and dried at all, incredibly difficult to compare them because they are SO different! I have no problem with anyone picking Lebron and it’s not impossible could lean that way when he’s finished.
HOW can it be OK if someone picks the other player(s)? Teach us your ways