Varsho/Moreno/Kirk Discussion Thread

[s e n s i]

I’m more interested now in discussing whether moreno is even a better catcher than varsho at this point in time. obviously the latter hasn’t caught a game in years but you have to ask the question. this would be purely hypothetical of course but spitballing fantasy scenarios seem to be where we’re at now.

[Madvillainy2004]

at least we can all agree on something; it’s nice to have finally moved on from the moreno takes from last season:
- stud catcher
- superstar
- generational catcher
- carrying his team to World Series
- pudge 2.0
- arizona coaches telling him not to run hard on the basepaths as a possible reason for his poor baserunning ability
- comparable to yadier molina
- best catching prospect in the last 20 years
- dbacks legitimate contender for years to come because of moreno
- moulding himself into a HOF catcher

and that’s not even including some of the hilarious varsho or gurriel takes

instead the discourse is now focused on how moreno is comparable to alejandro kirk and some surreal chat about hypothetical scenarios where varsho hits so poorly for so long that he is eventually non-tendered.

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When Moreno is giving his what speech ?????????????????? Lmfaooooooo

Jays media was so insufferable last year about Moreno.

[Parataxis]

at least we can all agree on something; it’s nice to have finally moved on from the moreno takes from last season:
- stud catcher
- superstar
- generational catcher
- carrying his team to World Series
- pudge 2.0
- arizona coaches telling him not to run hard on the basepaths as a possible reason for his poor baserunning ability
- comparable to yadier molina
- best catching prospect in the last 20 years
- dbacks legitimate contender for years to come because of moreno
- moulding himself into a HOF catcher

and that’s not even including some of the hilarious varsho or gurriel takes

instead the discourse is now focused on how moreno is comparable to alejandro kirk and some surreal chat about hypothetical scenarios where varsho hits so poorly for so long that he is eventually non-tendered.

Read on Twitter

When Moreno is giving his what speech ?????????????????? Lmfaooooooo

Jays media was so insufferable last year about Moreno.

I assume that the speech will be when he's introducing Carroll? That must be what they're thinking, which still feels like a stretch.

[brwnman]

ooh I love this! After a 3 week hot stretch, all the Varsho apologists have come out of the woodwork. Like he hasn't been a below average hitter as a Jay.

But let's go through this! Besides the fact that none of you can trace back the original argument, and apparently teams are going to pay Varsho 35M-45M/AAV as a 5 WAR player (since we're just making up arguments) - let's see why that's NEVER going to happen.

Between April 26 - August 2nd (77 games, 265 ABs), Varsho hit .181/.259/.347.

His OPS+ in the following months:
May - 81
June - 60
July - 82

His OPS+ all of last year - 85

But we can pretend he's been a league average hitter all season, and his .367 BAbip in August is sustainable based on... Shoot, I had something for this!

Going to love watching Varsho hit at a .309/.385/.482 pace the rest of the year.

Since I keep reading this

Well if he hits for 70 wRC+ for nearly 2 straight seasons (something he has never done before, nor is there any reason to expect this as a likely outcome for him)

Varsho doesn't have to hit at a 77 wRC+ to be a NTC, he can simply be an 85 OPS+ hitter (what he did all of last year and was worse than this before his 3-week hot stretch) and he'd be a NTC after the 2025 season.

[Randle McMurphy]

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#JustaLeftFielder

[brwnman]

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#JustaLeftFielder

“Top 15”

LOL

[Fairview4Life]

“The best defensive player in baseball is going to be non tendered”

LOL

[Randle McMurphy]

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#JustaLeftFielder

“Top 15”

LOL

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/2024-standard-batting.shtml

Top 12 (4.9 WAR) would be more accurate, you’re right

[brwnman]

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#JustaLeftFielder

“Top 15”

LOL

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/2024-standard-batting.shtml

Top 12 (4.9 WAR) would be more accurate, you’re right

LOL

If only bWAR is how teams built their roster. You could have a world where teams valued Varsho, Turang, Wynn more than Yordan Alvarez.

#absurdhypotheitcals? Couldn’t be me.

[bartron_44]

Varsho is essentially a Kevin Kiermaier “mini-me “. His best role is as an everyday CF that hits 9th. He likely gets paid about what KK did as well unless he has a massive season next year at the dish. I doubt they non tender him, but he isnt getting paid like a top 15 player by anyone..

People need to remember how much easier it is for a CF to post a high WAR due to the nature of that stat. There are great defenders throughout the minors and major league benches every year. Its what you can do to help the team score runs that gets you paid the big money for position players.

[Randle McMurphy]

“Top 15”

LOL

https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/2024-standard-batting.shtml

Top 12 (4.9 WAR) would be more accurate, you’re right

LOL

If only bWAR is how teams built their roster. You could have a world where teams valued Varsho, Turang, Wynn more than Yordan Alvarez.

#absurdhypotheitcals? Couldn’t be me.

All teams should build teams based on the eye test rather than how much value they provide is the argument you’re going with now?

LOL

[Randle McMurphy]

Varsho is about to post a 6 WAR year for the Jays and this guy is absolutely stewing over it.

[Randle McMurphy]

Varsho doesn't have to hit at a 77 wRC+ to be a NTC, he can simply be an 85 OPS+ hitter (what he did all of last year and was worse than this before his 3-week hot stretch) and he'd be a NTC after the 2025 season.

Varsho has a 103 wRC+ on the season and had 100
wRC+ and 107 wRC+ in his two seasons prior to being acquired by the Jays. Every projection system on FGs also has him doing better than 103 wRC+ for the remainder of the season but one (https://www.fangraphs.com/players/daulton-varsho/19918/stats?position=OF).

It’s really not a mystery as to which offensive season is the aberration in his career and pretending that it isn’t is yet another (bad) attempt by you at arguing in bad faith.

[Parataxis]

Varsho is essentially a Kevin Kiermaier “mini-me “. His best role is as an everyday CF that hits 9th. He likely gets paid about what KK did as well unless he has a massive season next year at the dish. I doubt they non tender him, but he isnt getting paid like a top 15 player by anyone..

While that sucks for Varsho, that's good for us, right? Getting a player who adds a bunch of wins cheaply seems like a good thing for the Jays.

[bartron_44]

Varsho is essentially a Kevin Kiermaier “mini-me “. His best role is as an everyday CF that hits 9th. He likely gets paid about what KK did as well unless he has a massive season next year at the dish. I doubt they non tender him, but he isnt getting paid like a top 15 player by anyone..

While that sucks for Varsho, that's good for us, right? Getting a player who adds a bunch of wins cheaply seems like a good thing for the Jays.

In a vacuum, sure. A cheap player that helps you win is great. But you traded a guy that is also going to be cheap and help you win games, has won a gold glove behind the plate, and was hitting 3rd in a world series lineup last year… AS A 23 YEAR OLD ROOKIE!! So while having Varsho is nice, I would trade him in a heartbeat for Gabriel Moreno.

[Randle McMurphy]

Varsho is essentially a Kevin Kiermaier “mini-me “. His best role is as an everyday CF that hits 9th. He likely gets paid about what KK did as well unless he has a massive season next year at the dish. I doubt they non tender him, but he isnt getting paid like a top 15 player by anyone..

While that sucks for Varsho, that's good for us, right? Getting a player who adds a bunch of wins cheaply seems like a good thing for the Jays.

In a vacuum, sure. A cheap player that helps you win is great. But you traded a guy that is also going to be cheap and help you win games, has won a gold glove behind the plate, and was hitting 3rd in a world series lineup last year… AS A 23 YEAR OLD ROOKIE!! So while having Varsho is nice, I would trade him in a heartbeat for Gabriel Moreno.

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[Mehar]

Varsho is essentially a Kevin Kiermaier “mini-me “. His best role is as an everyday CF that hits 9th. He likely gets paid about what KK did as well unless he has a massive season next year at the dish. I doubt they non tender him, but he isnt getting paid like a top 15 player by anyone..

While that sucks for Varsho, that's good for us, right? Getting a player who adds a bunch of wins cheaply seems like a good thing for the Jays.

In a vacuum, sure. A cheap player that helps you win is great. But you traded a guy that is also going to be cheap and help you win games, has won a gold glove behind the plate, and was hitting 3rd in a world series lineup last year… AS A 23 YEAR OLD ROOKIE!! So while having Varsho is nice, I would trade him in a heartbeat for Gabriel Moreno.

The trade was Varsho for Moreno and Gurriel, and Gurriel is having a fine season overall (hitting well over .300) for the months of June, July, and August. Moreno had an excellent 5 weeks before being unfortunately injured in early August.

Varsho also had a good 10 day span this month (just like he did in April/May) and now he is back to cooling off hitting wise like the previous 4 months. I agree that Varsho should be hitting 9th, but this manager had him hitting lead off today and he was terrible at the plate. I do not understand the logic of moving Varsho all over the lineup. He should be like KK and hitting 9th.

[linery88]

While that sucks for Varsho, that's good for us, right? Getting a player who adds a bunch of wins cheaply seems like a good thing for the Jays.

In a vacuum, sure. A cheap player that helps you win is great. But you traded a guy that is also going to be cheap and help you win games, has won a gold glove behind the plate, and was hitting 3rd in a world series lineup last year… AS A 23 YEAR OLD ROOKIE!! So while having Varsho is nice, I would trade him in a heartbeat for Gabriel Moreno.

The trade was Varsho for Moreno and Gurriel, and Gurriel is having a fine season overall (hitting well over .300) for the months of June, July, and August. Moreno had an excellent 5 weeks before being unfortunately injured in early August.

Varsho also had a good Game span this month (just like he did in April/May) and now he is back to cooling off hitting wise like the previous 4 months. I agree that Varsho should be hitting 9th, but this manager had him hitting lead off today and he was terrible at the plate. I do not understand the logic of moving Varsho all over the lineup. He should be like KK and hitting 9th.

I look at it this way.Arizona is in the playoff hunt,and we are not,even with Moreno sucking like he has.If he gets healthy in time for the playoffs he could do what he did last season.Would be nice to see ARZ beat LA in the playoffs.

[Mehar]

Moreno was hitting .262 with an OPS of .729 for the year before he got hurt in early August. If that is sucking offensively, what do you call Kirk with his .238 BA and .650 OPS? Moreno also has a higher OPS than the supposed team MVP Varsho.

Moreno was having an excellent month of July, before he got injured. The Diamondbacks would not even trade Gurriel straight up for Varsho, based on the solid season Gurriel is having (especially hitting well over .300 the last 3 months). Hopefully, this organization can acquire another legitimate Solid Starting Catcher for 2025, since Kirk is not the answer based on his pathetic offensive numbers since the second half of 2022.

[Madvillainy2004]

In a vacuum, sure. A cheap player that helps you win is great. But you traded a guy that is also going to be cheap and help you win games, has won a gold glove behind the plate, and was hitting 3rd in a world series lineup last year… AS A 23 YEAR OLD ROOKIE!! So while having Varsho is nice, I would trade him in a heartbeat for Gabriel Moreno.

The trade was Varsho for Moreno and Gurriel, and Gurriel is having a fine season overall (hitting well over .300) for the months of June, July, and August. Moreno had an excellent 5 weeks before being unfortunately injured in early August.

Varsho also had a good Game span this month (just like he did in April/May) and now he is back to cooling off hitting wise like the previous 4 months. I agree that Varsho should be hitting 9th, but this manager had him hitting lead off today and he was terrible at the plate. I do not understand the logic of moving Varsho all over the lineup. He should be like KK and hitting 9th.

I look at it this way.Arizona is in the playoff hunt,and we are not,even with Moreno sucking like he has.If he gets healthy in time for the playoffs he could do what he did last season.Would be nice to see ARZ beat LA in the playoffs.

Arizona is in the playoff hunt because of Caroll, Marte, Gallen, Walker, Pederson and Mccarthy lmao they also don't have a terrible bullpen. Swap Kirk for Moreno the past 2 seasons and the Jays are essentially the same team.