Official Summer 2024 Magic Free Agency and Trade Ideas Thread 8.0: A Forum Divided

[Skybox]

They had every opportunity in the world to make moves this summer and last. They chose not to...they have either:
1) Doubled down on Suggs (and Cole, to a lesser extent) being good enough at a limited PG role and brought in a consummate SG to cement this lineup

or, 2) they believe AB is going to be that guy and they're willing to either pray for a development miracle this summer or wait until it happens

or, 3) they think putting all of the playmaking on the shoulders of 2 very young 6'10 forwards is a workable plan

*If they make a trade (for an offensive backcourt creator) in the near future, it means, imo, they f**ked up and they're finally fixing it, despite skipping two summers of tremendous flexibility.

I think almost 100% of us here wanted the front office to bring in a star caliber player to facilitate the offense this last off-season. It didn't happen. We got KCP instead and brought back GH. Nothing for us to do but see how it works out or just complain

Nah, the slow cooker crowd is more than 1%

Yep...I was just listing the possible interpretations. Not even sure which I believe to be the reality or how it will turn out. I suppose #1, but they're all possible...my whole point is their actions do NOT point to another action - and if they do, it's a pivot.

[JF5]

Now the opportunity is open for someone on this roster to step up. If that doesn't happen someone else needs to be brought in. It's up to the front office to decide who goes and who stays. Of course they will need to evaluate some more. They have built a roster that can play competitive basketball games and has a pretty solid foundation and plenty of moveable contracts. That's on them and if they don't capitalize on the chance to add this year the window of financial flexibility closes shut next off-season. Should be a very interesting season.

They had every opportunity in the world to make moves this summer and last. They chose not to...they have either:
1) Doubled down on Suggs (and Cole, to a lesser extent) being good enough at a limited PG role and brought in a consummate SG to cement this lineup

or, 2) they believe AB is going to be that guy and they're willing to either pray for a development miracle this summer or wait until it happens

or, 3) they think putting all of the playmaking on the shoulders of 2 very young 6'10 forwards is a workable plan

*If they make a trade (for an offensive backcourt creator) in the near future, it means, imo, they f**ked up and they're finally fixing it, despite skipping two summers of tremendous flexibility.

I think almost 100% of us here wanted the front office to bring in a star caliber player to facilitate the offense this last off-season. It didn't happen. We got KCP instead and brought back GH. Nothing for us to do but see how it works out or just complain

TBH, I think it was a vocal minority... This team is one of the youngest teams in the league. They're nowhere near competing and they still have to focus on developing on what they have. If this was a situation where the core was in the tail end of their second contracts and reach this success it would've made sense to make a big move. But they're waaaaaay ahead of schedule.

When your team is already having success with their current core 1st year after the rebuild, you stay the course. There wouldn't have been another move outside of getting a Haliburton (who is offlimits at this point) that would've helped this team long term. This team is capped by how much better Paolo and Franz become over the next few seasons.

[anothermagicfan]

They had every opportunity in the world to make moves this summer and last. They chose not to...they have either:
1) Doubled down on Suggs (and Cole, to a lesser extent) being good enough at a limited PG role and brought in a consummate SG to cement this lineup

or, 2) they believe AB is going to be that guy and they're willing to either pray for a development miracle this summer or wait until it happens

or, 3) they think putting all of the playmaking on the shoulders of 2 very young 6'10 forwards is a workable plan

*If they make a trade (for an offensive backcourt creator) in the near future, it means, imo, they f**ked up and they're finally fixing it, despite skipping two summers of tremendous flexibility.

I think almost 100% of us here wanted the front office to bring in a star caliber player to facilitate the offense this last off-season. It didn't happen. We got KCP instead and brought back GH. Nothing for us to do but see how it works out or just complain

TBH, I think it was a vocal minority... This team is one of the youngest teams in the league. They're nowhere near competing and they still have to focus on developing on what they have. If this was a situation where the core was in the tail end of their second contracts and reach this success it would've made sense to make a big move. But they're waaaaaay ahead of schedule.

When your team is already having success with their current core 1st year after the rebuild, you stay the course. There wouldn't have been another move outside of getting a Haliburton (who is offlimits at this point) that would've helped this team long term. This team is capped by how much better Paolo and Franz become over the next few seasons.

Just to be clear I agree that they're not near competing for a title. I was simply saying that they're a team now that can play competitive basketball day in and day out. Gotta play competitive basketball first and then adjust the team to take the next step. We have a pretty solid young core, moveable contracts and own all of our picks. Eventually there will have to be some players moved to bring in a more impactful player to add to this core. It will happen

[J the Drafter]

Oden could play, like for real. He demonstrated that in games where he was healthy. Other guys on that list are just....really bad.

And Fultz could play. One cannot exclude injuries in this overall-#1 woat discussion. Oden's per36 stats were not very good in the games he did play. He was a bust.

So, in my knowledge, Fultz didn't have a single NBA game where he wasn't impacted by TOS - thus I have no data to declare him as 'could play'. You may argue that he could play even though he couldn't shoot, with occasional transition dunk or at time midrange jumpshot (before he was relegated to strictly dunker spot), which may be fair.

However, I disagree. In my opinion, while Fultz was somewhat effective at other parts of the game, as non-shooter (let alone being a non-shooting guard) he was detrimental to modern offense. Having him on the floor allowed opposing defense to simplify defensive strategy. They were not pressed into switches, rotations or closeouts which allowed them to deploy deep drop coverage and double teams.

The modern NBA has just as much a need for attacking the basket as it does three-point shooting. Attacking the basket draws help defenders, which gets spot-up shooters open shots. With Fultz, you got the trade off between not shooting threes and the presence of a midrange game, post play, cutting to the rim, finishing at the rim, passing, and defense—at which point you need to wonder if shooting is really worth pursuing at all costs. Three-point shooting is an advantage, but it’s only one aspect of basketball. In 2024 Fultz didn’t have the same burst, which hurt his game, and people who hate his lack of shooting took the opportunity to dump on him and dismiss how well he played when his knee was healthy. His detractors don’t even seem to realize Fultz was hurt in the first place.

The FO were probably hoping Fultz’s knee would recover, but aren’t willing to gamble on that happening.

[VFX]

Some of these responses are comical. Fultz hasn’t been good ever except for a small stretch two seasons ago. There’s a reason he isn’t being called.

So people will justify that Orlando shouldn’t have moved on from Fultz OR acquired a better point guard for the inevitable playoff situation last season even if not contending.

Then they’ll also say their top lotto pick shouldn’t have been developed at the same time and was better off being buried on the bench for reasons…

Hilarious.

Yes, it’s a FO issue not making a consolidation trade. However, AB is worth developing instead of playing Fultz to split minutes between 3 players inefficiently. That’s on Mosely.

Weltman could sell some of you anything and you’d eat it up and call it delicious.

[J the Drafter]

Some of these responses are comical. Fultz hasn’t been good ever except for a small stretch two seasons ago. There’s a reason he isn’t being called.

So people will justify that Orlando shouldn’t have moved on from Fultz OR acquired a better point guard for the inevitable playoff situation last season even if not contending.

Then they’ll also say their top lotto pick shouldn’t have been developed at the same time and was better off being buried on the bench for reasons…

Hilarious.

Yes, it’s a FO issue not making a consolidation trade. However, AB is worth developing instead of playing Fultz to split minutes between 3 players inefficiently. That’s on Mosely.

Weltman could sell some of you anything and you’d eat it up and call it delicious.

When Fultz is healthy he is, in fact, good. His health simply doesn’t seem to be something the FO is willing to bank on. Anthony Black has his own weaknesses as a scorer, which is why he didn’t get playoff minutes. And while we need a good point guard, there’s no particular rush to get one. The FO can afford to wait, see if a good opportunity becomes available or Suggs/Black develops into a player who can handle that spot.

Frankly, shooting isn’t the top skill you want from a playmaker anyway. Ball-handling, passing and finishing at the rim are all more important, in no particular order imo. You can’t collapse defenses by standing around waiting for teammates to pass to you. So it’s no surprise that if an organization has to make tradeoffs, the playstyle of the “modern NBA” won’t come first.

[VFX]

Some of these responses are comical. Fultz hasn’t been good ever except for a small stretch two seasons ago. There’s a reason he isn’t being called.

So people will justify that Orlando shouldn’t have moved on from Fultz OR acquired a better point guard for the inevitable playoff situation last season even if not contending.

Then they’ll also say their top lotto pick shouldn’t have been developed at the same time and was better off being buried on the bench for reasons…

Hilarious.

Yes, it’s a FO issue not making a consolidation trade. However, AB is worth developing instead of playing Fultz to split minutes between 3 players inefficiently. That’s on Mosely.

Weltman could sell some of you anything and you’d eat it up and call it delicious.

When Fultz is healthy he is, in fact, good. His health simply doesn’t seem to be something the FO is willing to bank on. Anthony Black has his own weaknesses as a scorer, which is why he didn’t get playoff minutes. And while we need a good point guard, there’s no particular rush to get one. The FO can afford to wait, see if a good opportunity becomes available or Suggs/Black develops into a player who can handle that spot.

Frankly, shooting isn’t the top skill you want from a playmaker anyway. Ball-handling, passing and finishing at the rim are all more important, in no particular order imo. You can’t collapse defenses by standing around waiting for teammates to pass to you. So it’s no surprise that if an organization has to make tradeoffs, the playstyle of the “modern NBA” won’t come first.

Fultz wasn’t good last season.
Anthony Black was the 6th pick.

The FO didn’t get a better point guard so the hypotheticals don’t matter. He wasn’t unhealthy and was trash. Also, Fultz wasn’t going to be on the roster after last season. Therefore AB shouldn’t have been behind him in the rotation.

Again, you aren’t developing Paolo and Franz in half a season with barely competent Fultz attempting to run the show. Mosely believed as much starting Suggs and Gary Harris.

The 15mpg we are arguing about should have absolutely without a doubt have been awarded to Anthony Black after the win streak they accrued AND the fact he was part of the future plans for this team. There is no argument otherwise if anyone is being honest.

Mosely chose to use those minutes playing Fultz over developing AB during crucial playoff experience. He didn’t and failed that test despite the FO best efforts to provide nothing better for Paolo and Franz.

[pepe1991]

Some of these responses are comical. Fultz hasn’t been good ever except for a small stretch two seasons ago. There’s a reason he isn’t being called.

So people will justify that Orlando shouldn’t have moved on from Fultz OR acquired a better point guard for the inevitable playoff situation last season even if not contending.

Then they’ll also say their top lotto pick shouldn’t have been developed at the same time and was better off being buried on the bench for reasons…

Hilarious.

Yes, it’s a FO issue not making a consolidation trade. However, AB is worth developing instead of playing Fultz to split minutes between 3 players inefficiently. That’s on Mosely.

Weltman could sell some of you anything and you’d eat it up and call it delicious.

When Fultz is healthy he is, in fact, good. His health simply doesn’t seem to be something the FO is willing to bank on. Anthony Black has his own weaknesses as a scorer, which is why he didn’t get playoff minutes. And while we need a good point guard, there’s no particular rush to get one. The FO can afford to wait, see if a good opportunity becomes available or Suggs/Black develops into a player who can handle that spot.

Frankly, shooting isn’t the top skill you want from a playmaker anyway. Ball-handling, passing and finishing at the rim are all more important, in no particular order imo. You can’t collapse defenses by standing around waiting for teammates to pass to you. So it’s no surprise that if an organization has to make tradeoffs, the playstyle of the “modern NBA” won’t come first.

Frankly, shooting isn’t the top skill you want from a playmaker anyway.

Hello Marty McFly, you went from 1985 to 2024, shooting is apsolute *need* for ANY guard in nba. Matter of fact cuttrent top 5 NBA PGs:
Curry- just best shooter ever
SGA - 35% for 3
Lillard- one of better shooters in history ( with several shooting records)
Haliburton - 40% for 3 for career
Doncic - 38% for 3 on 10 attemps a game last year

Pick any other ( Brunson, Jrue, Kyrie, Trae, Murray, Fox etc ) all of them are massive shooting treats.



Also "no particular rush to get PG" is another false information that continues to be repeated over and over again.
Magic already used one Max Contract Slot. This is last season of cap flexibility. Next summer, Banchero will fit into second one. Magic will soon have near $100 M tied with two players. Getting "good PG" isn't and will never will be cheap addition. With so much money tied into top players, Magic will sooner or later become top heavy team ( and lose depth eventually ).
There is also Suggs exstension that has been swept under the rug, that's probably additional $25-30M a year tied.


But back to Fultz and "good when healthy". He is career, 11 ppg player , net negative, BPM negative, horrid 51% TS player, for career he added - 218,5 points by shooting. That's minus two hundred eighteen point five points by shooting, because his shots bring negative value to a team.
As playmaker, he only has 4,6 apg on 2,00 turnovers. So he isn't even good at setting teammates.

His teams preform historically better when he is on bench.

Play it simple- Fultz is out of nba at age of 26 , despite being 1# pick because he is not good at basketball, at least not for this level. He neither is: creative playmaker, self creator, shot maker nor defender.
For crying out loud, it's September and he is without basketball contract. Pretty much sesons start everywhere so he will end up where execlly ? G league? Ask Elfrid Payton how that worked out for him.

[drsd]

To add to this Fultz discussion, I would add that managment expected him to transform the PnR opportunities. And advanced metric revealed he was actually below average in that.

The PnR is the league's most efficient play. And on this roster, it is run by F-Wagner and Banchero.

As to PG needs, what Orlando needs is guard shooting, not playmaking. There is every reason to think that Suggs and Caldwell-Pope will transform the backcourt together. Related, higher percentages of made-three balls will open up the post improving efficient stats for both F-Wagner and Banchero.

All of last season half of this board was screaming for PG playmaking. On a roster that was dead last in made threes. I am glad WePark is not listening to the vibe of RealGM fans.

[p0peye]

And Fultz could play. One cannot exclude injuries in this overall-#1 woat discussion. Oden's per36 stats were not very good in the games he did play. He was a bust.

So, in my knowledge, Fultz didn't have a single NBA game where he wasn't impacted by TOS - thus I have no data to declare him as 'could play'. You may argue that he could play even though he couldn't shoot, with occasional transition dunk or at time midrange jumpshot (before he was relegated to strictly dunker spot), which may be fair.

However, I disagree. In my opinion, while Fultz was somewhat effective at other parts of the game, as non-shooter (let alone being a non-shooting guard) he was detrimental to modern offense. Having him on the floor allowed opposing defense to simplify defensive strategy. They were not pressed into switches, rotations or closeouts which allowed them to deploy deep drop coverage and double teams.

The modern NBA has just as much a need for attacking the basket as it does three-point shooting.

Yeah. A walking requires a left leg as much as right, innit?

[Bergmaniac]

To add to this Fultz discussion, I would add that managment expected him to transform the PnR opportunities. And advanced metric revealed he was actually below average in that.

You really shouldn't need advanced stats to realise this, it was blatantly obvious even during Fultz's strongest periods. I hope it didn't take our management 5 years to realise something which was clear from the start. Not taking any 3s makes the ballhandler in pick and roll a lot easier to defend but also Fultz's passing in pick and roll situations was never more than adequate. Especially passing to the roll man, that's something he is just not good at.

As to PG needs, what Orlando needs is guard shooting, not playmaking. There is every reason to think that Suggs and Caldwell-Pope will transform the backcourt together. Related, higher percentages of made-three balls will open up the post improving efficient stats for both F-Wagner and Banchero.

You need both things unless you have a wing who does most of the actual playmaking and really good at it (LeBron, Luka, etc.) and neither Paolo nor Franz are anywhere near that level yet. In the playoffs in particular more playmaking almost always come in handy.

[drsd]

You need both things unless you have a wing who does most of the actual playmaking and really good at it (LeBron, Luka, etc.) and neither Paolo nor Franz are anywhere near that level yet. In the playoffs in particular more playmaking almost always come in handy.

Half of the RealGMers came to this point all of last season. And for me it is either i) not true or ii) cannot become true.

For i): I truly believe that a solid threeball will open up the post.

For ii): if it doesn't, well, Orlando has all their money tied into F-Wagner and Banchero. If they do not both become elite playmakers, then it will simply be another reset. That's just how it is.

Either way, it is "in F-Wagner and Banchero we trust".

[drsd]

Yeah. A walking requires a left leg as much as right, innit?

If the point is that the three ball opens up the driving lanes, I cannot more emphatically agree.

Caldwell-Pope might transform this team's offense!
$22 million could be a bargain.

[fendilim]

Some of these responses are comical. Fultz hasn’t been good ever except for a small stretch two seasons ago. There’s a reason he isn’t being called.

So people will justify that Orlando shouldn’t have moved on from Fultz OR acquired a better point guard for the inevitable playoff situation last season even if not contending.

Then they’ll also say their top lotto pick shouldn’t have been developed at the same time and was better off being buried on the bench for reasons…

Hilarious.

Yes, it’s a FO issue not making a consolidation trade. However, AB is worth developing instead of playing Fultz to split minutes between 3 players inefficiently. That’s on Mosely.

Weltman could sell some of you anything and you’d eat it up and call it delicious.

When Fultz is healthy he is, in fact, good. His health simply doesn’t seem to be something the FO is willing to bank on. Anthony Black has his own weaknesses as a scorer, which is why he didn’t get playoff minutes. And while we need a good point guard, there’s no particular rush to get one. The FO can afford to wait, see if a good opportunity becomes available or Suggs/Black develops into a player who can handle that spot.

Frankly, shooting isn’t the top skill you want from a playmaker anyway. Ball-handling, passing and finishing at the rim are all more important, in no particular order imo. You can’t collapse defenses by standing around waiting for teammates to pass to you. So it’s no surprise that if an organization has to make tradeoffs, the playstyle of the “modern NBA” won’t come first.

How do you know Fultz is good in the NBA when healthy? What’s your basis?

[eyriq]

It's a myth that the Magic haven't TRIED addressing the need at point guard. They used lottery picks in two out of the last four drafts to draft a point guard.

Point guards take time to develop.

[anothermagicfan]

I was pulling for Fultz to step up and prove himself to be the player worthy of the #1 pick. It didn't happen. Now he's gone. No need in beating a dead horse here.

I agree totally with drsd about the KCP Suggs backcourt. KCP isn't just a slight upgrade over Gary. The thing with Gary is somehow with minimal impact stats wise we won more games when he played. KCP starting in his place and Gary in the second unit should be a decent upgrade.

The guys we lost from last season are all addition by subtraction with the exception of Joe.

We've got 2 big questions to get answered first. 1) how does the starting 5 look with KCP added? And 2) how do we replace what Joe did for the second unit?

[jezzerinho]

It's a myth that the Magic haven't TRIED addressing the need at point guard. They used lottery picks in two out of the last four drafts to draft a point guard.

Point guards take time to develop.

And because teenage point guards take time to develop, you should sign a solid starter calibre PG to help develop the other starters while the kids learn the ropes.

Or, as the Magic are doing, you can retain 7 or 8 perimeter players and zero guard initiators. Who knows, it might somehow work. But on the face of it, theres not a ton of sense behind it.

[p0peye]

Yeah. A walking requires a left leg as much as right, innit?

If the point is that the three ball opens up the driving lanes, I cannot more emphatically agree.

Caldwell-Pope might transform this team's offense!
$22 million could be a bargain.

Yep, that's what 3&D players do. Add one, and it's a whole different ball game.

[eyriq]

It's a myth that the Magic haven't TRIED addressing the need at point guard. They used lottery picks in two out of the last four drafts to draft a point guard.

Point guards take time to develop.

And because teenage point guards take time to develop, you should sign a solid starter calibre PG to help develop the other starters while the kids learn the ropes.

Or, as the Magic are doing, you can retain 7 or 8 perimeter players and zero guard initiators. Who knows, it might somehow work. But on the face of it, theres not a ton of sense behind it.

My read on it is that the logic, or sense, behind it is to clear a path for AB and give a majority of playmaking reps to Franz and Paolo.

There is a lot of "what works" involved as well, given the strength of the Suggs/Harris/Franz/Paolo/WCJ lineup. Having a backcourt with an all-around contributor in Suggs and a defense oriented spot-up shooter like KCP/Harris/Black is a proven recipe if you will.

[VFX]

People aren’t getting it.

The argument isn’t about Fultz vs Black based on history.

The argument is about Orlando’s 2023 #6 lotto pick point guard against a 26 year old player that isn’t technically in the league anymore.

Obviously you play the #6 lotto pick because he’s your long term investment for **** sake and not the team-less scrub looking for a job after half a season.

The Front Office was dumb enough not to move him earlier (which was about 100 pages of arguments here last offseason), so naturally the decision fell on Mosely.

Mosely dropped the ball and couldn’t figure that out either unfortunately.

People here argue all the time about how important “playoff experience” is to young players as an anti tank talking point for a decade. Then they tell me with a straight face that playing a broken guy with half a season left on his contract was a better decision than their lotto pick rookie or the guy they just signed to a long extension. That’s very funny. At least be consistent in your bad faith arguments.