Retro Player of the Year 1965-66 UPDATE — Bill Russell

[trex_8063]

Player of the Year
1. Wilt Chamberlain - Well, as AEnigma predicted, Wilt is going to get some #1 votes, and I'm one of them. Leads the league in ppg and rpg, while also being tied for 4th in the league [best on his team] in TS% and 7th in league [again 1st on his team] in apg?......that's insane. That team was one of the two best teams in the league, too, and 2nd-best defense behind Boston.
Lost soundly to Russell and the Celtics in the playoffs, though Wilt averaged 28.0/30.2 [series best in both] on 50% TS against Russell, while most of his teammates were even "more tightly contained": Greer averaged 16.4 ppg @ 40.5% TS, Walker averaged 14.6 ppg @ 47.0% TS, Wali Jones averaged 13.0 ppg @ 37.5% TS, and rookie Billy Cunningham is partly injured, btw, and averages just 5.3 ppg [in 4 games played] @ 28.6% TS. Luke Jackson looks like the ONLY teammate who really came through.

2. Jerry West - Tied for 2nd in scoring while leading the league in TS%, and 5th in apg, all for the league's best offense. Solid two-way player as we know, too, and he had an excellent playoff showing in a Finals run. They go the distance against Boston, loosing another heart-breaker game 7 by just two points (West scored a game-high 36 pts, while most of his teammates vanished).

3. Bill Russell - Past his peak, though still solidly in his prime. Still comfortably the DPOY, imo [though I don't know if I'll get O and D POY ballots in this time]. Once again massively increases his offensive output and efficiency in the playoffs, too, winning an eight title in a row.

4. Oscar Robertson - The slight slump in the Royals' ORtg, combined with Oscar's slight slump in their playoff series is just enough to put him below West and Russell for me [though tentatively] (well, West I also consider the superior defender, which is a factor). Still another remarkable season from prime Oscar, though.

5. Sam Jones - Near his peak here, excellent scorer in both rs and ps for best team in league. A number of clutch performances in the series against Cincy (who really gave them a challenge); one or two in the Finals, too.


Defensive Player of the Year
1. Bill Russell - Most dominant defense by a country mile [again], and Russell is Russell.
2. Wilt Chamberlain - League-leader in rpg, anchor of league's 2nd-best defense (well behind Boston, though also well ahead of 3rd).
3. Nate Thurmond - Anchor of 3rd-best defense, known rim-deterrent, also averaging 18 rpg (something like 4th in league, I think).


I'll try to get around to OPOY ballot later.

[eminence]

Player of the Year
1. Bill Russell
I can't think of anything that'd make me pick against the guy who was winning his 8th straight title as the man on his squad. I won't be picking Karl over MJ and I'm not picking anybody here over Bill in the seasons he gets it done (hint hint for next season).

2. Wilt Chamberlain
Close discussion with 3/4, a bit more faith in Wilt as a defensive anchor who was productive on offense. Still don't fully buy into his offense until Hannum returns and turns him into primarily a passer.

3. Oscar Robertson
Through Oscar's prime I generally have him as a half step ahead of Jerry in the impact department. Most differences in achievement in this period trace back to severe conference imbalance (Celtics/Sixers were clearly the top 2 and the Royals stack up fine vs the West broadly). In a 9 team league having the top 2.5 teams is a lot (consider the modern equivalent, that'd be the top ~8 teams being in a given conference).

4. Jerry West
Very talented scorer, good all around game, playmaking gap to Oscar just a tad too large to overcome. Really really wish we'd seen them play one another in a playoffs series in prime.

5. Zelmo Beatty
Good all around big man, not particularly close to the top 4, but a guy I'm fine taking this season. Think he would've functioned well off either of the two big guards of the era (more concerned a Bellamy wouldn't fit well).

[trex_8063]

Player of the Year


4. Jerry West
Very talented scorer, good all around game, playmaking gap to Oscar just a tad too large to overcome. Really really wish we'd seen them play one another in a playoffs series in prime.
.

Idk, the fact that West’s a better scorer (this year), a notably better defender, has a better playoff run (from both individual and team perspective), leads a better team offence (more successful team all-around by any measure)..…for me, that’s too much of a gap for Oscar’s playmaking edge to overcome.

[eminence]

Player of the Year


4. Jerry West
Very talented scorer, good all around game, playmaking gap to Oscar just a tad too large to overcome. Really really wish we'd seen them play one another in a playoffs series in prime.
.

Idk, the fact that West’s a better scorer (this year), a notably better defender, has a better playoff run (from both individual and team perspective), leads a better team offence (more successful team all-around by any measure)..…for me, that’s too much of a gap for Oscar’s playmaking edge to overcome.

Things I agree with but that you may rate more highly than I do:
-Scoring gap, marginal
-Defensive gap, small
-Better team/offense, small gap (games won is also a pretty important measure)

Things I disagree on:
-Better playoff run, equal run both individual/team, terrible conference

[ardee]

PoY

1. Jerry West

Bit of a surprise pick, actually had Wilt no. 1 first but when you consider the fact that West had the Lakers as the no. 1 offense even while carrying the hobbled Baylor, it was enough to be a tiebreaker for me. Ridiculous statistical year, 840 FT made is still an all-time record I believe. Then he led the league in TS% as a 6'2 guard, both in the RS and the Playoffs, the latter for which half his games were against the Celtics.

This is his peak imo. He had better short stretches, but for an entire season, West was never better than in 1966. I really thought pretty hard about giving him the no. 1 spot, really came down to RS vs PS here.

2. Wilt Chamberlain

Like trex said, he was severely let down by his teammates this year, which really wasn't the first time this happened in his career. The Sixers finished 55-25, but started 26-17, meaning they went on a 29-8 run to finish the season, during which Wilt raised his game and averaged 32.5/23.8/6.0 on 57.6% from the field (57% TS).

Had him no. 1 first, but the tiebreaker for me was the Playoffs. West was simply too good there, while the RS is close enough.

3. Bill Russell

Definitely took a step back in the RS this year, enough to the point where Wilt surpasses him again. But his Playoff performance, especially when you take into account that he had to play 3 series for the first time in his career, remains very impressive in my mind. 24/24/4 on 54% from the field in the Finals (coupled with his usual defense) is just legendary.

4. Oscar Robertson

I think it's like what, the 4th straight year with these 4 guys trading the top spots? I don't know how people can rank him over West, especially given the Playoff gap as well as the fact that the Lakers with a hobbled Baylor had the best offense in the league, but it's pretty clear that no one else in the league can approach him for the 4th spot.

5. Zelmo Beaty

Default pick, no. 1 guy on a team that made the final four, but as others have said, significantly worse than the top 4.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Bill Russell

Honestly it feels wrong people are voting him 2nd or even 3rd. If the only reason the Sixers finished ahead was Russell's teammates being more injured then why say its Russell slipping. And even if he did, Russell then beats Wilt in 5 and even the people voting him 3rd are saying he stepped up so this looks pretty desperate to me no offense.

2 - Oscar

Maybe the one guy who actually didn't have alot of help and almost pulled the upset averaging like 30/11. Seems he was also the second or third best regular season guy.

3 - West

Looks like he did the best against Boston and almost won. Its a pretty good point to me that Baylor did just as well vs Boston.

4 - Wilt

Won an MVP. Might not have been deserved but whatever. He did alot worse Boston it looks like but he's also a great defender.

5 - Beaty.

Honestly kind of just going with everyone else. made the top 4 and is leading the team in different stats and no one thinks they weren't the best player so I'm giving him a vote.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Bill Russell - 2nd Team All-NBA. Anchored a historic defense. Team had a ton of injuries so ended up winning 1 fewer game than the Sixers but still a slightly higher SRS and won the title. Not an easy choice by any means given the seasons #2 and #3 on this list had but I'll go with the guy who won the championship for an 8th year in a row and had massive impact that isn't captured by the box score. Averaged 12.9/22.8/4.8 on 44.8 %TS (-3.9 rTS) in the RS then 19.1/25.2/5.0 on 51.4 %TS (+2.7 rTS). Scoring was quite good in the PS as well.

2. Jerry West - 1st Team All-NBA. Huge playoffs. Top 2 offensive player in the league while also being a really good perimeter defender. Teammate Baylor took it up a notch in the PS but West clearly led the way and led the Lakers within a hair of a title. 31.3/7.1/6.1 on 57.3 %TS (+8.6 rTS) in the RS then 34.2/6.3/5.6 on 58.1 %TS (+9.4 rTS) in the PS. Had a huge series against the defensive juggernaut Celtics putting up 33.9/6.4/5.1 on 58.7 %TS (+10.0 rTS).

3. Wilt Chamberlain - 1st Team All-NBA. MVP. Had a disappointing playoff series against the Celtics, arguably the worst of his career against his archrival. He could go higher given that his RS was the best of anyone but I feel good about him here. 33.5/24.6/5.2 on 54.7 %TS (+6.0 rTS) then 28.0/30.2/3.0 on 50.0 %TS (+1.3 rTS) in the PS against the Celtics. Both scoring and creation way down as well as his averages being heavily boosted by Game 5.

4. Oscar Robertson - 1st Team All-NBA. Still arguably the best offensive engine in the game although Cincinnati is down to #3 in rORtg this season. 31.3/7.7/11.1 on 56.3 %TS (+7.6 rTS) in the RS then 31.8/7.6/7.8 on 53.0 %TS (+4.3 rTS) in the PS against the Celtics. I like him more than Wilt offensively but Wilt's two-way impact puts him ahead. The defensive gap is huge in favour of the Stilt.

5. Rick Barry - 1st Team All-NBA as a rookie. Averaged 25.7/10.6/2.2 on 51.8 %TS (+3.1 rTS). Not the all-around player he would become in latter years but still an elite performer for an improving Warriors team post-Wilt. His teammate Thurmond was also growing into his role but was quite poor as an offensive player at this stage.

OPOY

1. Jerry West - Huge playoffs.

2. Oscar Robertson - Best combo of scoring and playmaking but PS lagging behind West.

3. Wilt Chamberlain - Excellent scorer with improved passing since 1964.

DPOY

1. Bill Russell

2. Wilt Chamberlain

3. Nate Thurmond

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Not a good series against the Celtics, arguably the worst of his career apart from 1969. He won't be my #1 but West could.

What way was it bad? Wilt had a 50FG% against the Celtics. His terrible free throw shooting is why his TS% was so bad

Isn't that part of the game too?

Yeah if Wilt shot bad because of his free-throws then he still shot bad. I'm not an expert or anything but it feels like people really just want to give Wilt a vote

[OhayoKD]

What way was it bad? Wilt had a 50FG% against the Celtics. His terrible free throw shooting is why his TS% was so bad

Isn't that part of the game too?

Yeah if Wilt shot bad because of his free-throws then he still shot bad. I'm not an expert or anything but it feels like people really just want to give Wilt a vote

Eh...Russell looks headed for another comfortable win. That said, Wilt's argument vs Russell this year is probably a weaker version of what Russell's argument against Wilt would be next year...

[penbeast0]

Well, Russell couldn't shoot FTs either, just a lesser part of his game than it is for Wilt.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 15 voters: Djoker, AEnigma, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, penbeast0, Ardee, LA Bird, eminence, One_and_Done, Narigo, trex, ShaqAttac, OhayoKD, IlikeShaiGuys, and trelos. Djoker, AEnigma, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, OhayoKD, and trelos also voted for both Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year, and Trex voted for Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1965-66 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Oscar Robertson (6) and Jerry West

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Oscar Robertson    3   3   0    24     0.800
1. Jerry West   3    3    0     24    0.800
3. Wilt Chamberlain   0   0   6    6    0.200

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Bill Russell (10) (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Bill Russell   7   0   0     35     1.000
2. Wilt Chamberlain    0   5   2    17    0.486
3. Nate Thurmond    0   2   4    10    0.286
4. Dave DeBusschere   0   0   1    1    0.029

Retro Player of the Year — Bill Russell (8)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Bill Russell  10  3  2  0  0   131    0.873
2. Wilt Chamberlain  3  6  3  3  0   96   0.640
3. Jerry West   2  5  6  2  0   91   0.607
4. Oscar Robertson   0  1  4  10  0   57   0.380
5. Zelmo Beaty  0  0  0  0  8   8   0.053
6. Sam Jones    0  0  0  0  3   3    0.020
7. Rick Barry    0  0  0  0  1   1    0.007
7. John Havlicek    0  0  0  0  1   1    0.007
7. Gus Johnson    0  0  0  0  1   1    0.007
7. Jerry Lucas    0  0  0  0  1   1    0.007

In the prior project, there were 14 votes, with Dr. Positivity and penbeast overlapping. With those two prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 27 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Bill Russell  14  11  2  0  0   227    0.841
2. Wilt Chamberlain  10  10  4  3  0   199   0.737
3. Jerry West   3  5  15  4  0   152   0.563
4. Oscar Robertson  0  1  6  20  0   97   0.359
5. Sam Jones  0  0  0  0  15   15   0.056
6. Zelmo Beaty    0  0  0  0  8   8    0.030
7. Rick Barry    0  0  0  0  1   1    0.004
7. John Havlicek    0  0  0  0  1   1    0.004
7. Gus Johnson    0  0  0  0  1   1    0.004
7. Jerry Lucas    0  0  0  0  1   1    0.004

1967 thread will open shortly.

[tsherkin]

Well, Russell couldn't shoot FTs either, just a lesser part of his game than it is for Wilt.

And it does bear mention that despite his FT woes, Wilt was routinely among the most efficient scorers in the game, and that on mega volume. He has 3 seasons under 110 TS+ in his entire career. And from 67 onward, he'd have been efficient any time from the 80s forward until the mega jump in efficiency the past couple seasons. He led the league in FG% 9 times, and 6 of those happened from his rookie season through his final MVP award in 68. Between that and his Embiid-like FTr all throughout his career, he ended up doing just fine in the efficiency department overall. He dropped off a lot in the playoffs during his mega-efficiency seasons, but that's another story.

66 was not a banner year for Wilt in the playoffs, of course. That said, in the playoffs, he still shot 50.9% FG against Boston, which is roughly +7% rFG, though that still left him at +0.2% rTS. But that's still H2H with Bill Russell and the best defense in the league, so that's to be considered. All the great scorers suffered to one degree or another against titanic defenses. Jordan's last 3 titles were marked by some pretty dismal efficiency in the Finals compared to his RS and even playoff TS%, for example. It's just tough when you hit that in the first series of the playoffs, rather than 4 series in.

It's still a stark drop, but some context is required, particularly given how wretched his teammates were against the Celtics. Like, profoundly incompetent.

[ardee]

Russell getting it both in 1964 and this year is kind of ridiculous, but oh well.

[AEnigma]

Russell getting it both in 1964 and this year is kind of ridiculous, but oh well.

Best player on best team with that team consistently looking bad without him. Seems pretty easy. He was a better and more successful player than West, and neither year saw Wilt do enough in the postseason to convince that he merited higher assessment either.

[Doctor MJ]

Russell getting it both in 1964 and this year is kind of ridiculous, but oh well.

For the record, I'd side with Russell in both years, so I'm encouraged by what I see though I see arguments for Wilt both years and Oscar in 1964.

Where I've come to in looking at those players is that just in general, Russell had the edge to come out on top against all contemporaries more often than not.

[Top10alltime]

So I have tracked oscar robertson game 1966 ECSF game 4 second half

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1o4ceeHeIhWzKQ3d6iYuH4w7OMw7EAayfsObcUY0yEaE/edit?usp=drivesdk

Final tally -
7x doubled
7x creation
10 DTOs
4 EDTOs
38 possessions available