Sheryl Swoopes Saga

[MrDollarBills]

Two things are true here honestly

1) Sheryl Swoopes said some really unprofessional things about Clark. I'm not going to defend someone for saying things that aren't factual. I've seen people do it against Angel Reese, and here we have someone doing against Caitlin Clark. I don't like any of it and I wish it would stop. Leave the agendas out of it if you're in a position to offer analysis. It doesn't matter who you are, you have a responsibility to be honest. I don't care about your personal feelings towards these players, especially 22 year old kids who are just trying to figure it out.

2) Sheryl is 100% correct: the toxic segment of CC's fanbase is disgusting, toxic and racist/bigoted. I have zero issues with her calling it out and defending players who are on the receiving end of abuse from trolls. I think the WNBA and the WNBA fandom needs to rebuke this stuff loudly. Don't spew hate in anyone's name.

[og15]

Swoopes has said some disappointing things, and older players being jealous of some of the benefits younger ones receive has been a men's basketball issue too.

That said, fans......superfans you might say are very annoying.

They take on this persecution complex for their player and they defend them in ways the player doesn't even want to be defended, but are oblivious to the fact that they are doing this.

For example, Taurasi's 7th technical got rescinded because she argued she was talking to a teammate and the league agred. CC fans are then commenting saying, "would a CC theoretical 7th get rescinded too", and then talking about bias, etc

Wait, what did that have to do with CC? How did we now create a future hypothetical scenario where she's getting unfair treatment. Why are we assuming that if Clark got her 7th there would be a similar situation that the league agrees with to rescind it, but they would not?

That kind of stuff is super annoying, and sadly there's little we can do about it, some people are just wild.

[RSCD3_]

I'm so sick of this drama fueled garbage overshadowing good basketball.

Swoopes should be f*cking ashamed of herself. She's being messy and she is hurting the league with this stuff because then you have culture war trolls who don't watch or care about the WNBA rushing to come in and sat, "See? We told you [i]they all hate Caitlin" [/i]when it's the furthest thing from the truth.

CC has done nothing or said anything to warrant this behavior from her. It's absurd and embarrassing that this has happened. Especially coming from someone whose work in the sport is the very reason we're all talking about the league right now!

No one should have to kiss Caitlin Clark's ass. Let's be clear. If you have criticism of her game, say it and stand on it. Especially if you're supposed to be an analyst.

But all this nonsense going on? It adds nothing. It doesn't help the WNBA, it doesn't foster constructive discourse surrounding women's basketball, and worst of all it feeds the trolls who want nothing more than to watch the league implode because they hate women and minorities.

Good job Sheryl. The kid has done nothing to you and now you hurt yourself, her, and the league.

Yeah, it's not even a bit subtle, especially on Twiiter, people have been using this to say "the league hates Caitlin because she's a white girl and black women can't deal with that", a lot of misogyny and racism shaking hands here to try and paint this image of Caitlin as this weak white vulnerable maiden who must be protected. Anytime she gives a hard foul, it's a play on the ball, but if she gets hit, it's CRIMINAL ASSAULT. It's quite disgusting to see, I blame Elon for a lot of this as a decent chunk of these people would have been banned or had their bad behavior not incentive as much with blue checkmarks trolling for discourse back in the day.

It also really casts and ugly shadow on it and puts Caitlin in a terrible position where she has become an unwilling champion of hateful people who attack others in her name but she can't constantly engage, but when she doesn't people think she's not talking because it threatens her pocketbooks if speaks out on the matter. So she's in a no-win situation. She did previously address people using her name to push hateful agendas being something she didn't stand for so she's not been totally radio silent. But anyways I really hope a lot of this dies down soon because I love the product but there's just this unclean feeling I get whenever I see a reese vs clark debate that I never got with anything in the NBA

[cdubbz]

also I would think if Swoopes and whoever employs her wants to move on from this they would want her to publicly make a statement. not sure if it's to apologize but to address the whole thing - thhen she can disappear off air until next season & start fresh.

[Mephariel]

Caitlin Clark is probably already the 2nd best player in the league after A'ja Wilson. So her haters are just wrong. With that said, I seriously think Clark's fanbase is one of the most toxic in sports. Like a huge chunk of the controversy wouldn't exist if it wasn't for them white knighting her relentlessly. Can you imagine if Lonzo Ball had this many white knights protecting him in his rookie season? Beverly might not have made it out alive after the opening game. Clark isn't a damsel. She is a grown woman playing in a competitive sport. She can take a hit. She can take some trash talking. It is ok.

Honestly, a huge part of her fanbase are probably people who constantly called others "snowflakes," but they act like snowflakes around Clark. OMG, Reese talked trash to her!!! A huge part of her fanbase are saying "hire the most qualified person for the job" are now demanding the selection committee to put her on the Olympic team. Seriously, I think half of them don't even care about the WNBA. Just just care about defending their princess.

[zimpy27]

Swoopes has said some disappointing things, and older players being jealous of some of the benefits younger ones receive has been a men's basketball issue too.

That said, fans......superfans you might say are very annoying.

They take on this persecution complex for their player and they defend them in ways the player doesn't even want to be defended, but are oblivious to the fact that they are doing this.

For example, Taurasi's 7th technical got rescinded because she argued she was talking to a teammate and the league agred. CC fans are then commenting saying, "would a CC theoretical 7th get rescinded too", and then talking about bias, etc

Wait, what did that have to do with CC? How did we now create a future hypothetical scenario where she's getting unfair treatment. Why are we assuming that if Clark got her 7th there would be a similar situation that the league agrees with to rescind it, but they would not?

That kind of stuff is super annoying, and sadly there's little we can do about it, some people are just wild.

It's also super annoying to not be able to separate an opinion of players fans from your opinion of the player themself.

Like, that is odd but seemingly acceptable behavior.

Why even talk about the fans? Why even think of them? They're irrelevant, you're a WNBA analyst, not a WNBA fan analyst.

[zimpy27]

It must be super bizarre for Caitlin that 2 grown women (who are players you looked up to) have now ended their friendship over some disagreement about commentary on your game.

[LouisLitt]

She didn’t say those things in that way though. You stripped out the context completely. You’re also just being silly when you say she doesn’t know anything about her and she was using fabricated comments. I posted the link for a reason. Go listen to it, instead of just being mad about what you think she said. It’s all fairly reasonable stuff. She thinks records should be broken over the same period of time, to be considered legit. That’s a defensible position. She was just confused about how many years Clark had played because of COVID and apologized to her for getting that wrong. The 40 shots a game thing was hyperbole to make the point that she wouldn’t be the focal point in the W like she was in college so she didn’t think she’d be able to score in the pros like she did in college right away. Again, that’s not hating on her. She was less enthusiastic about Reese, but this turned into her somehow hating Caitlin Clark.

It’s kind of crazy to me that people can hear fairly normal commentary like that in a world where guys like SAS exist, or Skip Bayless yells about Lebron every 3 minutes, and call it hating.

I've watched it. Also, I'm not mad?

The logic of breaking the record in the same amount of games isn't an issue. But that's what CC did, she broke it in the same amount of games, so why even bring this up? If she wasn't confident about how many years CC played, why even make this point in the first place? She then carried that into her being 25 against 22 year olds. Sure she apologized, because it was completely made up.

When you're speaking about someone but you're unsure about their life, do you automatically take the most negative spin you can?

The 40 shots a game thing was hyperbole to make the point that she wouldn’t be the focal point in the W like she was in college so she didn’t think she’d be able to score in the pros like she did in college right away.

Again, why?

Over 4 years in NCAA she averaged 20 shots, she's shooting 14 right now (with more being taken recently, averaging 17 since the break).

Why do you need hyperbole in this situation that's double the amount of shots she took?

If you watched CC in college you could tell her game wasn't focused around being an inefficient volume shooter, so why even bring this up?

She was less enthusiastic about Reese, but this turned into her somehow hating Caitlin Clark.

Because this isn't an isolated incident with CC. If she said this, apologized, then pulled no nonsense towards CC again this wouldn't be a story right now.

It’s kind of crazy to me that people can hear fairly normal commentary like that in a world where guys like SAS exist, or Skip Bayless yells about Lebron every 3 minutes, and call it hating.

Are you saying people don't think SAS and Skip are clowns who hate on people?

Skips been called out on his Lebron hate for two decades now.

[Fairview4Life]

I am saying we hear actual hating every day from sports talking heads. We know what it sounds like. This isn’t it.

As for all the whys you asked, the answer is the same - because she was commenting on how she thinks these great college players would immediately transition to the pros. She is saying just because they did x in college doesn’t mean they’ll be able to do x right away in the WNBA because of all of these different reasons. That’s very basic sports commentary we hear every day about tons of players in different sports. Clark dominated basically every possession for Iowa in her senior year. She was almost their entire team. That’s one of the reasons their team results were so amazing. Saying she won’t be doing that right away in the WNBA is pretty normal commentary and not hating and also turned out to be correct.

We can talk about how poorly she handled the (imo) overreaction and backlash to that Arenas podcast appearance, but there was actually nothing really all that negative in what she said.

[Ice Man]

Wait, what did that have to do with CC? How did we now create a future hypothetical scenario where she's getting unfair treatment. Why are we assuming that if Clark got her 7th there would be a similar situation that the league agrees with to rescind it, but they would not?

Plus, she's not going to get a 7th technical, because she's fully under control out there. Ever since the 5th she has changed how she reacts to court disappointment and has stopped getting Ts. It's Clark. She has been a professional, in all senses of the word (including renumeration), for a long time now. She's not going to let her emotions get between her and a potential victory.

That kind of stuff is super annoying, and sadly there's little we can do about it, some people are just wild.

Yup.

[MrDollarBills]

Swoopes has said some disappointing things, and older players being jealous of some of the benefits younger ones receive has been a men's basketball issue too.

That said, fans......superfans you might say are very annoying.

They take on this persecution complex for their player and they defend them in ways the player doesn't even want to be defended, but are oblivious to the fact that they are doing this.

For example, Taurasi's 7th technical got rescinded because she argued she was talking to a teammate and the league agred. CC fans are then commenting saying, "would a CC theoretical 7th get rescinded too", and then talking about bias, etc

Wait, what did that have to do with CC? How did we now create a future hypothetical scenario where she's getting unfair treatment. Why are we assuming that if Clark got her 7th there would be a similar situation that the league agrees with to rescind it, but they would not?

That kind of stuff is super annoying, and sadly there's little we can do about it, some people are just wild.

Yeah unfortunately there's going to be weirdos in every fandom. The persecution complex is really bizarre.

There is no conspiracy against Caitlin Clark. I wish the onus was on the fact that she's literally a generational talent doing things we've never seen instead of this irrelevant nonsense.

[mattg]

She didn’t say those things in that way though. You stripped out the context completely. You’re also just being silly when you say she doesn’t know anything about her and she was using fabricated comments. I posted the link for a reason. Go listen to it, instead of just being mad about what you think she said. It’s all fairly reasonable stuff. She thinks records should be broken over the same period of time, to be considered legit. That’s a defensible position. She was just confused about how many years Clark had played because of COVID and apologized to her for getting that wrong. The 40 shots a game thing was hyperbole to make the point that she wouldn’t be the focal point in the W like she was in college so she didn’t think she’d be able to score in the pros like she did in college right away. Again, that’s not hating on her. She was less enthusiastic about Reese, but this turned into her somehow hating Caitlin Clark.

It’s kind of crazy to me that people can hear fairly normal commentary like that in a world where guys like SAS exist, or Skip Bayless yells about Lebron every 3 minutes, and call it hating.

This is such a bad take. Plenty of us listened to that podcast live as it aired months ago and it comes across as hardcore hate AND total ignorance of the facts. If you're an all time great player who goes on a show to provide "analysis" under the guise of your basketball experience and knowledge, and then you come out and literally are completely incorrect AND ignorant of the facts while downplaying a record breaking generational player, there is no other way for it to be interpreted except as hardcore hate because otherwise what are you doing? Also, since I can tell you don't regularly see Swoopes on Gil's Arena, she has numerous appearances and she is negative in the same kind of way in all of them except for the one where she explicity praises EVERY fever player aside from Clark post all star break when clark starting going berserk. No one is saying not mention how well Lexi Hull is playing as a 3+D player, or how on fire Kelsey Mitchell has been shooting the ball or anything, but you'd have to be completely brain dead dumb or intentionally intellectually dishonest to not bring up Clark and her play with how Indiana has performed post All-Star. It's a conscious choice. It's like if Sheryl Swoopes is going to be the Skip Bayless to Caitlin Clark's Lebron James, that's fine, just own it. It's the fact that Sheryl plays stupid with this crap when it's soooooo obvious is the ridiculous part. Just embrace the fact that you don't like Clark at all, everyone knows she doesn't anyway and you can see it plain as day.

With regards to Swoopes, she's just a bitter lady at this point in life. Just a miserable person. It says it all that she ended a friendship with Nancy Lieberman to defend a literal POS person like Chennedy Carter over Nancy saying she'd punch Carter in the face retaliating over a cheap shot...when Carter has literally the most trash attitude in the entire WNBA and constantly is trying to fight even her own teammates and had to miss an entire season due to her attitude. Like it says so much more about Swoopes and her morals and her character that she would sever a friendship of any kind in order to defend trash Chennedy Carter.

There's also obviously a racial component to all of this where SOME of these older black players feel it's unfair that a suburban white girl is the player who elevates women's basketball when many of them clearly feel the game was built off the backs of black players. Even though there's been numerous absolute superstar white women's players before, none of them elevated the profile of the WNBA like Clark and obviously that is where the racial divide occurs.

[MrDollarBills]

It must be super bizarre for Caitlin that 2 grown women (who are players you looked up to) have now ended their friendship over some disagreement about commentary on your game.

This is absolutely insane.

Whatever was being said during those conversations, I don't wanna know. Keep that to yourselves

I would be weirded out by this if I was CC. Grown ass women

[Fairview4Life]

This is such a bad take. Plenty of us listened to that podcast live as it aired months ago and it comes across as hardcore hate AND total ignorance of the facts.

I don't believe you. I would absolutely believe you watched some clips of that on youtube with other people commenting about it, but I absolutely cannot believe anyone actually watched that live and thought it was hardcore hating. Are you kidding?

[zimpy27]

It must be super bizarre for Caitlin that 2 grown women (who are players you looked up to) have now ended their friendship over some disagreement about commentary on your game.

This is absolutely insane.

Whatever was being said during those conversations, I don't wanna know. Keep that to yourselves

I would be weirded out by this if I was CC. Grown ass women

Imagine this happening in the NBA. It is embarrassing.

[mattg]

This is such a bad take. Plenty of us listened to that podcast live as it aired months ago and it comes across as hardcore hate AND total ignorance of the facts.

I don't believe you. I would absolutely believe you watched some clips of that on youtube with other people commenting about it, but I absolutely cannot believe anyone actually watched that live and thought it was hardcore hating. Are you kidding?

That episode aired literally during the height of the end of women's college basketball season. So yes, when Swoopes comes on to Gil's Arena for the first time ever specifically to talk women's college basketball around the time of the final 4, and then is not only completely ignorant of what is and has been happening in current women's games, but then she uses over the top hyperbole to discredit the record breaking performances, how else can it possibly be taken? Why else does Swoopes specifically choose to go on a basketball podcast to specifically talk women's college hoops and then specifically has ALL of the facts regarding Clark wrong AND ALL OF THE FACTS THAT SHE GOT WRONG HAPPEN TO BE NEGATIVE?

[ellobo]

I'm really, really trying to avoid all the she said/she said mess surrounding women's basketball and just enjoy watching and analyzing the players and games on the court.

Here and there I do get drawn into reading about it and even commenting on it, but I pretty much 100% regret it when I do.

Just saying...

[Fairview4Life]

What am I missing here? All negative?

https://youtu.be/gp1sdiGlBuM?t=7120

Swoopes brought up Clark and said her and Reese's personalities are good for the game and Clark is one of the best shooters she's ever seen in college. They went into women not showing personality or going at each other like men do, and that it would be good if they did and talked about Reese and Clark in college going at each other like that and how that's great for getting people to tune in which is then sustained by the great basketball.

Then she's specifically asked about Clark's breaking the scoring record and then how she thinks she will translate to the WNBA. This is the part she got wrong initially. She was wrong about the number of years, which she apologized for to Clark, but they actually figured that out a few mins later anyway on the podcast that the stats were all in 4 years. But also...that isn't hating someone. She messed up the Covid year stuff and thought Clark was in her 5th year. That isn't some giant scandal.

Talking about how she thinks Reese and Clark will translate to the WNBA right away is not hating at all. She says they will both absolutely be good pros, but they won't be able to come in and dominate the WNBA right away. Clark is having one of the best rookie seasons ever but she started shooting pretty poorly and is still averaging under 20ppg, taking a lot less shots than in college and her efficiency is a bit lower...which is hardly surprising and I cannot for the life of me see how that's hating on her to suggest she might not be as dominant as a rookie in the WNBA as she was in college. Saying she won't be able to do what she did in college in the WNBA is hardly hating on her. This is something that commenters basically say about almost every draft pick in every sport. This is bog standard sports commentary but is even more relevant in a league with very few teams and roster spots. She was clearly defending the talent level in the WNBA and suggesting that Clark won't be able to come in and dominate like she did at Iowa right away isn't hating. Her USG%'s at Iowa were 37%, 37%, 37% and 40% in her senior year. It's 27% in the WNBA. Swoopes correctly saying that there is a whole lot of veteran talent in the WNBA that will be taking some of those shots isn't hating on Clark.

Swoopes' only real mistake/problem is letting the insane online attacks about these fairly anodyne comments get to her and she's gotten seemingly pretty stubborn and defensive about it all.

[DOT]

Swoopes has said some disappointing things, and older players being jealous of some of the benefits younger ones receive has been a men's basketball issue too.

That said, fans......superfans you might say are very annoying.

They take on this persecution complex for their player and they defend them in ways the player doesn't even want to be defended, but are oblivious to the fact that they are doing this.

For example, Taurasi's 7th technical got rescinded because she argued she was talking to a teammate and the league agred. CC fans are then commenting saying, "would a CC theoretical 7th get rescinded too", and then talking about bias, etc

Wait, what did that have to do with CC? How did we now create a future hypothetical scenario where she's getting unfair treatment. Why are we assuming that if Clark got her 7th there would be a similar situation that the league agrees with to rescind it, but they would not?

That kind of stuff is super annoying, and sadly there's little we can do about it, some people are just wild.

Yeah unfortunately there's going to be weirdos in every fandom. The persecution complex is really bizarre.

There is no conspiracy against Caitlin Clark. I wish the onus was on the fact that she's literally a generational talent doing things we've never seen instead of this irrelevant nonsense.

r/WNBA has become almost unbearable lol

I know it's Reddit, but still. There's multiple posts on the front page today about Barkley saying the WNBA "couldn't have messed up the Caitlin Clark situation more if they tried" and every one of them has people keep bringing up Chennedy Carter's flagrant on her earlier in the season

Part of me realizes though, this just means the WNBA's made it, cause we got the talking heads who don't watch a single game talking like they watch every minute

[Fairview4Life]

There's multiple posts on the front page today about Barkley saying the WNBA "couldn't have messed up the Caitlin Clark situation more if they tried" and every one of them has people keep bringing up Chennedy Carter's flagrant on her earlier in the season

Someone overcoming adversity and succeeding is not something people want to watch. That's definitely not the plot of every sports movie ever made. Chuck needs to explain what he's talking about, after checking in on ratings too maybe.