Ingram/Ayton/Okoro solutions in one trade

[RollingWave]

What's the current rule on S&T again? In previous CBAs I thought you couldn't aggregate it in trades that involve multiple players going out from the team with the guy that the player was on or something, also, for this to work, the S&T # has to be pretty high, can they do 1-2 year deals in S&Ts?

For example the Klay Thompson trade the Warriors only send out one player, and it was a 3 year deal.

You could always aggregate sign and trades in previous cba’s, and still can, but you have to deal with the possibility of a player being base year compensation, and the difficulties that might bring with it. Sign and trades require at least a 3 year deal, but only the first year has to be guaranteed. Player involved has to agree to the contract and trade as well.


Mostly though, this deal seems to put Portland into the tax unless Okoro signs for something like $7m or less (which, why would he if he can sign a QO for $11.8m in Cleveland right now?)

well There’s the part where Cleveland might just pull the QO, what’s the rule on that again? It seems to me that actually the team can pull the QO pretty much whenever so if a guy signs it it’s kinda on the team agreeing to it anyway

[Scoot McGroot]

What's the current rule on S&T again? In previous CBAs I thought you couldn't aggregate it in trades that involve multiple players going out from the team with the guy that the player was on or something, also, for this to work, the S&T # has to be pretty high, can they do 1-2 year deals in S&Ts?

For example the Klay Thompson trade the Warriors only send out one player, and it was a 3 year deal.

You could always aggregate sign and trades in previous cba’s, and still can, but you have to deal with the possibility of a player being base year compensation, and the difficulties that might bring with it. Sign and trades require at least a 3 year deal, but only the first year has to be guaranteed. Player involved has to agree to the contract and trade as well.


Mostly though, this deal seems to put Portland into the tax unless Okoro signs for something like $7m or less (which, why would he if he can sign a QO for $11.8m in Cleveland right now?)

well There’s the part where Cleveland might just pull the QO, what’s the rule on that again? It seems to me that actually the team can pull the QO pretty much whenever so if a guy signs it it’s kinda on the team agreeing to it anyway

It’s past the deadline for Cleveland to unilaterally decide to revoke the QO. At this point, Okoro would have to agree to the revocation of the QO.

[louc1970]

The big issue for me is the NOP part of the trade. Ayton is not capable of stretching the defense at all, not even to the free throw line. Pairing him with Williamson creates area of 2 negative shooters.

That is just not true.

Ayton has plenty of flaws without having to make up more but he is an adequate mid range shooter.

Sure, but to be fair, that doesn't really "stretch the floor", in practice. Hitting the mid range effectively is probably still a shot the defense would love to yield while allowing Ayton's defender to sag more into the paint and lessening the risk of attacks at the rim? Like, I think you're both right?

But I am more righter right?

[toooskies]

I don't want to add Ingram to the Cavs' starting lineup without sending Garland out. (And I don't want to send Garland out for Ingram with Ingram only under contract for a year.)

Mobley needs touches to ascend to a higher level and to get those touches he needs to not be the 4th option in the offense. Sending out role players like Okoro and Strus for Ingram just takes the ball away from Mobley. (I'm okay with trading LeVert as he's a low-efficiency, high-usage guy.)

The end result here is a super-top-heavy team with little bench depth (Jerome, Merrill, Tyson, Wade, Niang-- not a reliable playoff performer in the group) and no assets, and next year that team might have to replace its starting SF if they don't want a fourth max contract. (There are much cheaper ways to turn Max Strus into an expiring contract.)

[louc1970]

That is just not true.

Ayton has plenty of flaws without having to make up more but he is an adequate mid range shooter.

Sure, but to be fair, that doesn't really "stretch the floor", in practice. Hitting the mid range effectively is probably still a shot the defense would love to yield while allowing Ayton's defender to sag more into the paint and lessening the risk of attacks at the rim? Like, I think you're both right?

Sure, but to be fair, Ayton can shoot with some accuracy to the FT line and beyond, not extending to the 3 point line.

Which is what I said. He is good to the free throw line.
Ayton shot 1/10 on 3s last year. Putting him with Zion clogs the lane. That is my point.
The returns for each time are fine, especially if Portland's goal is to allow Henderson/Sharpe/Avdija/Clingan the chance to play (and lose for the draft).
Like many have said, the next moves are to jettison Simons/Grant.

[slos]

You could always aggregate sign and trades in previous cba’s, and still can, but you have to deal with the possibility of a player being base year compensation, and the difficulties that might bring with it. Sign and trades require at least a 3 year deal, but only the first year has to be guaranteed. Player involved has to agree to the contract and trade as well.


Mostly though, this deal seems to put Portland into the tax unless Okoro signs for something like $7m or less (which, why would he if he can sign a QO for $11.8m in Cleveland right now?)

Did the math and Portland can give up to 11,5 mil starting salary to Okoro in this deal (which is enough for a 4/50) without paying the tax.

Im being rough with the math, but I have the deal (with no fillers) putting them around $5-6m into the tax before accounting for any fillers. If it’s Banton and Reath, they’d still be $1-2m over the tax? Are you including the Bledsoe and Louzada dead salaries?

Yes I missed Portland’s dead money. Still not a deal breaker here. They can send an additional filler to Cleveland. Walker, Rupert, Camara, whoever they value less.

[JRoy]

Sure, but to be fair, that doesn't really "stretch the floor", in practice. Hitting the mid range effectively is probably still a shot the defense would love to yield while allowing Ayton's defender to sag more into the paint and lessening the risk of attacks at the rim? Like, I think you're both right?

Sure, but to be fair, Ayton can shoot with some accuracy to the FT line and beyond, not extending to the 3 point line.

Which is what I said. He is good to the free throw line.
Ayton shot 1/10 on 3s last year. Putting him with Zion clogs the lane. That is my point.
The returns for each time are fine, especially if Portland's goal is to allow Henderson/Sharpe/Avdija/Clingan the chance to play (and lose for the draft).
Like many have said, the next moves are to jettison Simons/Grant.

No, that is not what you said. You said Ayton is incapable of stretching the defense even to the free throw line, which is untrue.

I get the hate for Ayton, but there no need to invent flaws, he has plenty already.

[jbk1234]

Did the math and Portland can give up to 11,5 mil starting salary to Okoro in this deal (which is enough for a 4/50) without paying the tax.

Im being rough with the math, but I have the deal (with no fillers) putting them around $5-6m into the tax before accounting for any fillers. If it’s Banton and Reath, they’d still be $1-2m over the tax? Are you including the Bledsoe and Louzada dead salaries?

Yes I missed Portland’s dead money. Still not a deal breaker here. They can send an additional filler to Cleveland. Walker, Rupert, Camara, whoever they value less.

The Cavs, like every other team in the NBA, don't want to give value for the privilege of having to max Ingram. The fit is questionable with Allen and Mobley given Ingram's shot chart and his love for the midrange shot.

But even if you got past all of that, why do the Pelicans allow the Blazers to walk away with the value you have the Cavs offering as far as Strus, Okoro (who suddenly agrees to sign a team-friendly deal), an unprotected 1st, and swap rights for a player who might have, at best, nuetral value?

This is wildly unrealistic.

[louc1970]

Sure, but to be fair, Ayton can shoot with some accuracy to the FT line and beyond, not extending to the 3 point line.

Which is what I said. He is good to the free throw line.
Ayton shot 1/10 on 3s last year. Putting him with Zion clogs the lane. That is my point.
The returns for each time are fine, especially if Portland's goal is to allow Henderson/Sharpe/Avdija/Clingan the chance to play (and lose for the draft).
Like many have said, the next moves are to jettison Simons/Grant.

No, that is not what you said. You said Ayton is incapable of stretching the defense even to the free throw line, which is untrue.

I get the hate for Ayton, but there no need to invent flaws, he has plenty already.

I don't dislike Ayton. I think he is used in a completely wrong way. He has to buy into it but his usefulness is different than how is used.

[JRoy]

Which is what I said. He is good to the free throw line.
Ayton shot 1/10 on 3s last year. Putting him with Zion clogs the lane. That is my point.
The returns for each time are fine, especially if Portland's goal is to allow Henderson/Sharpe/Avdija/Clingan the chance to play (and lose for the draft).
Like many have said, the next moves are to jettison Simons/Grant.

No, that is not what you said. You said Ayton is incapable of stretching the defense even to the free throw line, which is untrue.

I get the hate for Ayton, but there no need to invent flaws, he has plenty already.

I don't dislike Ayton. I think he is used in a completely wrong way. He has to buy into it but his usefulness is different than how is used.

I happen to agree. He has an unfortunate combination of laziness and unearned pride.

If Chris Paul couldn’t unlock Ayton, I don’t think anyone can.

[Scoot McGroot]

Did the math and Portland can give up to 11,5 mil starting salary to Okoro in this deal (which is enough for a 4/50) without paying the tax.

Im being rough with the math, but I have the deal (with no fillers) putting them around $5-6m into the tax before accounting for any fillers. If it’s Banton and Reath, they’d still be $1-2m over the tax? Are you including the Bledsoe and Louzada dead salaries?

Yes I missed Portland’s dead money. Still not a deal breaker here. They can send an additional filler to Cleveland. Walker, Rupert, Camara, whoever they value less.

Those 3 are specifically well valued young players for a Portland. They’d probably rather keep them than take on all 3 of Strus, Okoro, and Levert, while also putting themselves precariously close to the tax and unable to fill their 15th roster spot?

[brackdan70]

I kind of like it but seems too easy for Portland. I think we need to mess around with the compensation a bit.

[brackdan70]

Yeah remove the outgoing Cavs picks pick (2031).
The 2030 swap goes to NOP. Portland sends a second to Cavs and a protected first to NOP

[cucad8]

Yeah remove the outgoing Cavs picks pick (2031).
The 2030 swap goes to NOP. Portland sends a second to Cavs and a protected first to NOP

And you've lost Portland. There's no chance we send out a 1st and a 2nd to turn Ayton in to Okoro. We're out of the tax. His deal is only 2 years. I get other teams not wanting to fit him in, but he's not some huge albatross on the books for Portland.

[BlazersBroncos]

Yeah remove the outgoing Cavs picks pick (2031).
The 2030 swap goes to NOP. Portland sends a second to Cavs and a protected first to NOP

Portland ain’t paying to move Ayton. There is zero reason to do that.

[JRoy]

Yeah remove the outgoing Cavs picks pick (2031).
The 2030 swap goes to NOP. Portland sends a second to Cavs and a protected first to NOP

LOL.

POR is not sending a FRP of any kind for this deal.

What rebuilding team is sending an unprotected FRP for a mediocre role player?

[brackdan70]

Yeah remove the outgoing Cavs picks pick (2031).
The 2030 swap goes to NOP. Portland sends a second to Cavs and a protected first to NOP

LOL.

POR is not sending a FRP of any kind for this deal.

What rebuilding team is sending an unprotected FRP for a mediocre role player?

I did say protected pick.
I hear ya. I don’t think a deal gets done then though.

[brackdan70]

Yeah remove the outgoing Cavs picks pick (2031).
The 2030 swap goes to NOP. Portland sends a second to Cavs and a protected first to NOP

Portland ain’t paying to move Ayton. There is zero reason to do that.

Probably not good trade partners then for any Ayton trade.
This one is tough. Cleveland really isn’t getting the type of value for what they are sending that they should send out a pick, but NOP seem to deserve a pick, so it may be a deal that just doesn’t work for these teams.

[the_process]

If I'm NO, I trade Ingram for Ayton and a pick swap.

POR taking some contracts and getting a 1st for Ayton is good, too.

So it comes down to CLE paying two 1sts to turn scrubs into Ingram. That is questionable to me. It has merit, but is Ingram the final piece of a title team? Because the Cavs would essentially be out of assets.