RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[bledredwine]

Anybody remember the finals game when the Bulls were going down to certain defeat until Rodman stole the ball a couple of times and made some impossible shots? Not arguing that he’s worthy of GOAT consideration, even with all his rings, but for all his cloning around (who plays up to stinking North Korea dictators?) he was a guy who was tough enough and could read the court well enough to push a team to a title. No one is ever going to put Dennis Johnson on this list, but Seattle and the Bird teams would have been hard pressed without him seemingly occupying the right place at the right time. “Havlicek stole the ball.”, but in reality it looks like that inbound pass hit a wire, because you know who distracted at the perfect moment. No knock on Bron and Michael that Kyrie and Kerr hit series winning shots. It’s a team game, and both of them knew when to set up their mates. I’d say everybody on this list are rich in the intangibles that are oft overlooked, but cut to the core of team competition.

I do remember that.

I also remember when Lebron nearly had a failure just as bad as 2011, but then Chris Bosh got a rebound and Ray Allen forced OT from a loss with a 3 pointer at the buzzer. I also remember Kyrie averaging nearly 30 and coming through in the clutch over and over against the Warriors. It truly is a team game.

[NbaAllDay]

Anybody remember the finals game when the Bulls were going down to certain defeat until Rodman stole the ball a couple of times and made some impossible shots? Not arguing that he’s worthy of GOAT consideration, even with all his rings, but for all his cloning around (who plays up to stinking North Korea dictators?) he was a guy who was tough enough and could read the court well enough to push a team to a title. No one is ever going to put Dennis Johnson on this list, but Seattle and the Bird teams would have been hard pressed without him seemingly occupying the right place at the right time. “Havlicek stole the ball.”, but in reality it looks like that inbound pass hit a wire, because you know who distracted at the perfect moment. No knock on Bron and Michael that Kyrie and Kerr hit series winning shots. It’s a team game, and both of them knew when to set up their mates. I’d say everybody on this list are rich in the intangibles that are oft overlooked, but cut to the core of team competition.

I do remember that.

I also remember when Lebron nearly had a failure just as bad as 2011, but then Chris Bosh got a rebound and Ray Allen forced OT from a loss with a 3 pointer at the buzzer. I also remember Kyrie averaging nearly 30 and coming through in the clutch over and over against the Warriors. It truly is a team game.

If scoring 17 points in the final quarter is defined as 'nearly having a failure' then he really must be your GOAT.

[bledredwine]

Anybody remember the finals game when the Bulls were going down to certain defeat until Rodman stole the ball a couple of times and made some impossible shots? Not arguing that he’s worthy of GOAT consideration, even with all his rings, but for all his cloning around (who plays up to stinking North Korea dictators?) he was a guy who was tough enough and could read the court well enough to push a team to a title. No one is ever going to put Dennis Johnson on this list, but Seattle and the Bird teams would have been hard pressed without him seemingly occupying the right place at the right time. “Havlicek stole the ball.”, but in reality it looks like that inbound pass hit a wire, because you know who distracted at the perfect moment. No knock on Bron and Michael that Kyrie and Kerr hit series winning shots. It’s a team game, and both of them knew when to set up their mates. I’d say everybody on this list are rich in the intangibles that are oft overlooked, but cut to the core of team competition.

I do remember that.

I also remember when Lebron nearly had a failure just as bad as 2011, but then Chris Bosh got a rebound and Ray Allen forced OT from a loss with a 3 pointer at the buzzer. I also remember Kyrie averaging nearly 30 and coming through in the clutch over and over against the Warriors. It truly is a team game.

If scoring 17 points in the final quarter is defined as 'nearly having a failure' then he really must be your GOAT.

I remember his stats for that series, at that time, being abysmal. In all fairness, he went on and played great for the rest of the series, but it was 2011'eque until then.

So nope, not my goat!

[The Big O]

Your post just shows your ignorence and lack of basketball knowledge.

Hershey Hawkins in his *sophmore* year was second leading scorer of 53 wins team led by Barkley and went to second round of playoffs, in playoffs he averaged 23,5 ppg.
In his allstar season, he was 13# in scoring . Do you know who is 13# scorer in 2023-24. Lebron

RIcky Pierce was pretty much modern day Ginobili. Instant offense from bench and microvawe scorer.
At age of 33 he was *leading scorer of 55 wins team that went to nba Western Conference Finals* . Guy is one of best 6th men's in nba history.

Danny Manning - literally made allstar as 10th best scorer that year - 10th scorer this year, well that tall chubby guy named Nikola ( not Vučević lol )

Cliff Robinson , for start guy averaged 18 or more times - 8 seasons, 20 ppg - 3 seasons. Guy was all second nba team member, 6th man of a year, got DPOY votes and lasted 17 seasons, going from 1989 to late 2000s, crossing 3 decades, playing ECF and nba finals ( twice, once even as a rookie). Guy was 36 and started on 55 wins PIstons. You make it sound like guy is some random nobody.


Ced Ceballos was leading scorer on 1995 Lakers that went to second round and won 48 games. Always enough to be allstar

Non of this guy comes close as bad as allstar Cris Kaman, guy who was allstar by averaging 18 ppg on 29 wins team OR Gerald Wallace who played 33 playoff games in his entire career .
Only trully bad allstar you picked is BJ Armstrong, but even he was on Jordanless Bulls and won 55 games. Still not as bad as damn Kaman allstar.


Lebron also joined one of his biggest rivals , who already won championship without him.
Just year before Lebron joined Heat this is what Wade , individually achived :
- 5th in MVP votes
- all nba first team
- defensive second team
- all defensive second team
- 10th in DPOY

Heat won 47 games

Year BEFORE that, Wade was 3rd in MVP race

Lebron made GOAT race all about ring count, created player's movment, hooped from one team to another, 20 years later still can't catch Jordan's rings. Despite fact he played with multiple players who were considered top 10 ( or even top 5 ) in that moment.

So much fail in your post. Comparing Ricky Pierce to Manu Ginobili is bad enough , then you had the audacity to assert that LeBron was playing with prime Wade his entire time in Miami (hint WAde was definitely not top 10 post 2011). What other top ten players had he played with outside of Anthony Davis in 2020? Please enlighten us.

Your propping up an era that had Vin Baker and Juwan Howard make all-nba teams and then call my basketball knowledge ignorant.

nba allstar game 2010 had 5 out of 10 allstars STARTERS from 1990s:
Kobe
Duncan
Nash
Kevin Garnet
Iverson

But that's not all, in resevers there were : Kidd, Billups, Dirk, Pierce.
Pretty much 50% of allstar team was drafted in 1990s and were still dominating (at least) 10 years later.

Wade wasn't top 10 player in 2011?

7th in MVP race
allstar
all nba second team

25,5 ppg
6,4 rpg
4,6 apg
6,6 BPM
58% TS.
That's his playoff production in 2010-11 , yea, not top 10 at all, after all alleged Goat averaged all 1,2 ppg, 1,1 rpg and 2,4 apg more. What a pure domination

You are embarrassing yourself with Wade takes. Wade is easly top 5 SG of all time. And way better and more talented player than any teammate Jordan ever had.
Guy literally won championship with out of his prime Shaq and bunch of over a hill washed up stars. Was finals MVP, 13 times allstar, 8 times all nba teams member, 3 times all nba defensive teams, scoring champion etc.

NBA finals 2011
Wade 26 ppg, 7 rpg, 5,2 apg
Bosh 18,5 ppg, 8,5 rpg, 1,0 apg
Lebron : 17,8 ppg, 7,2 rpg, 7 apg

Tell me more about lockdown defense from DeShawn Stevenson and his stand for best defender in history

nba allstar game 2010 had 5 out of 10 allstars STARTERS from 1990s:
Kobe
Duncan
Nash
Kevin Garnet
Iverson

But that's not all, in resevers there were : Kidd, Billups, Dirk, Pierce.
Pretty much 50% of allstar team was drafted in 1990s and were still dominating (at least) 10 years later.

What's the argument here? All these guys were drafted in the late 90's and had no significant impact on the 90's decade itself. It makes sense that they were all-stars in their early 30's.

Wade wasn't top 10 player in 2011?

7th in MVP race
allstar
all nba second team

25,5 ppg
6,4 rpg
4,6 apg
6,6 BPM
58% TS.
That's his playoff production in 2010-11 , yea, not top 10 at all, after all alleged Goat averaged all 1,2 ppg, 1,1 rpg and 2,4 apg more. What a pure domination

Did you read what I wrote? I included 2011 Wade as a top ten player. But that was his last season as such, it's revisionist history to think that Wade didn't fall off a cliff after that season. But please do tell me how Wade's previous exploits added star value to the Heat after 2011

[The Big O]

Imagine leading the league in scoring with 35 ppg while winning DPOY. That's Jordan.

MJ's resume is overwhelming. I think Lebron is great, he's a legitimate generational player. The problem is it's not fair to compare Jordan to anyone, even Lebron. I'm going to leave just a little chunk of MJ's legacy here for anyone interested.

Jordan on Offense
30.1ppg for his career, most in NBA history
33.4ppg career playoffs average, most in NBA history
33.6ppg in 6 Finals appearances, most in NBA history
41.0ppg in a Finals series, most in NBA history
10 Scoring titles, most in NBA history
10 seasons with 2,000+ points, NBA record


Jordan with Analytics
PER (Player Efficiency Rating): Highest in history for both the regular season (27.91) and the playoffs. (28.6)
Win Shares per 48 (WS/48): Highest in history for both the regular season (.2505) and the playoffs (.2553)
Box plus Minus: Highest in history for both the regular season (9.22) and the playoffs (11.14)
VORP per Game: Highest in history for both the regular season (.1083) and the playoffs(.1382)


Jordan on Defense
He was the first player in history to be selected to 9 All Defensive First teams.
He was the first player in history to get 200 steals and 100 blocks in a season, it has still only been done by 3 players. (Michael did it twice).
He was the steals leader 3 times.
He's the only guard in history, relative to his position, both in the Top 5 for blocks and Top 5 for steals.
He was the defensive Player of the Year and Scoring Champion in the same year, the only player in history to accomplish this.
His 131 blocks for the 1988 season is still the most blocks in a season by a guard in NBA history.

(from YT comment, but all facts I'm familiar with)

Eh what is "VORP per game"? VORP is a cumulative metric that's derived from per 100 possession production rates. Makes no sense to turn it into a per game stat.

How exactly does Jordan have a clear edge over LeBron with analytics? LeBron has a higher peak BPM, higher peak WS/48, higher VORP, higher TS%, and is a clear winner in the RAPM/impact-based metrics. Jordan has miniscule advantage in career PER and career WS/48, but they both have shown to be neck and neck from the available metrics.

[CharityStripe34]

I accidentally clicked into this thread and I am shocked Garnett isn't one of the options, considering this is RealGM.

[NyKnicks1714]

Anybody remember the finals game when the Bulls were going down to certain defeat until Rodman stole the ball a couple of times and made some impossible shots? Not arguing that he’s worthy of GOAT consideration, even with all his rings, but for all his cloning around (who plays up to stinking North Korea dictators?) he was a guy who was tough enough and could read the court well enough to push a team to a title. No one is ever going to put Dennis Johnson on this list, but Seattle and the Bird teams would have been hard pressed without him seemingly occupying the right place at the right time. “Havlicek stole the ball.”, but in reality it looks like that inbound pass hit a wire, because you know who distracted at the perfect moment. No knock on Bron and Michael that Kyrie and Kerr hit series winning shots. It’s a team game, and both of them knew when to set up their mates. I’d say everybody on this list are rich in the intangibles that are oft overlooked, but cut to the core of team competition.

I do remember that.

I also remember when Lebron nearly had a failure just as bad as 2011, but then Chris Bosh got a rebound and Ray Allen forced OT from a loss with a 3 pointer at the buzzer. I also remember Kyrie averaging nearly 30 and coming through in the clutch over and over against the Warriors. It truly is a team game.

If scoring 17 points in the final quarter is defined as 'nearly having a failure' then he really must be your GOAT.

A bit of a tangent here, but people forget how dead the Heat looked towards the end of the third. The game and series just felt over. That's something you can't really capture watching highlights today. Ditto Game 6 vs Boston in 2012. You can watch a replay or highlights of the game and see a great performance, but what makes it one of the best ever playoff performances is how much that game felt like a formality going in. Everyone thought Miami lost the series in Game 5.

[Rust_Cohle]

At this point, it’s obvious Bron is the GOAT to me. No one is matching 6/6 that Jordan did, it’ll never happen again, and there were unique circumstances that made it happen. If 6/6 is what tickles your fancy, then congrats Bill Russell is your GOAT.

Back then, Jordan was the unquestioned best player in the world, with the best coach in the league, a front office that put winning above Jordan’s wishes so the team was always a well oiled machine, they drafted Pippen who became one of the best defenders of all time, and the league due to expansion was weak. Given Jordan’s drive and the above, they were bound to win a ton. The league that Bron has played in has significantly more talent, teams are smarter, schemes are more intricate than just the simple triangle that the Bulls would spam, amount of area to cover on defense is a lot more, players today are replacing previous all time players on the list. Jordan would find it a lot harder to win the storybook 6/6 in todays league. Now, put Bron on those Bulls team and he probably decimates the league more than Jordan did, because he is easier to mold, he’s much more adaptable, and his drive to win is just as high as Jordans. LeBron would win like 8 rings if he played in the 90s in Jordans place, cause he wouldn’t quit the sport in the middle of his prime, he’d want more and more. Bron is now the all time leading scorer and he’s still adding to it, his peak is as good as Jordan’s and his prime is now like twice as long. He could legit play all five positions if needed. We all remember him handling a legit center in Pau Gasol, who was no slouch.

It’s not a crazy position anymore, Bron has a legit case for GOAT. But it’s perfectly fine if Jordan is your number 1, or Kareem, or whoever, it’s subjective. To me it’s Bron *shrug*

Put MJ on 2011 and they win the title. Lebron played in a terrible eastern conference in his second Cavs stint compared to MJ in the 90’s. Lebron had tougher finals opponents but Jordan prevented so many other legends from winning the title while Lebron was the opposite. Many of his peers won titles at his expense

And yes, he’s obviously still a brilliant player

[Kobe187]

In Michael Jordan's final game with the Chicago Bulls, MJ scored 45 of the team's 87 points in Game 6 of the 1998 NBA Finals. He scored 51.7% of his team’s points winning the game (and championship) which is crazy.

[The4thHorseman]

In Michael Jordan's final game with the Chicago Bulls, MJ scored 45 of the team's 87 points in Game 6 of the 1998 NBA Finals. He scored 51.7% of his team’s points winning the game (and championship) which is crazy.

On 35fga (15-35) and 15fta (12-15)

[MavsDirk41]

In Michael Jordan's final game with the Chicago Bulls, MJ scored 45 of the team's 87 points in Game 6 of the 1998 NBA Finals. He scored 51.7% of his team’s points winning the game (and championship) which is crazy.

On 35fga (15-35) and 15fta (12-15)

Pippen reinjured his back during that game and finished with 25 minutes of game action scoring 8 points. Only other Bull in double figures was Kukoc with 15 points. Maybe do some research next time?

[The4thHorseman]

What's that have to do with missing 20 of his 35fga? His teammates were the reason for having a bad shooting night?

[MavsDirk41]

What's that have to do with missing 20 of his 35fga? His teammates were the reason for having a bad shooting night?

Imagine clowning on the guy for having a bad shooting night when he steals the ball from Malone and goes down and drills a 20 footer with 5 seconds left in the game to win the championship. I know you are just a salty James stan but you cant come up with anything better than a bad shooting night lol?

Bulls are the oldest team to win a championship also.

[Rust_Cohle]

What's that have to do with missing 20 of his 35fga? His teammates were the reason for having a bad shooting night?

What was James excuse in 2011?

[mdonnelly1989]

I don't see any serious consideration for anyone else in this debate THB

Bill Russell most rings but played in a league with way less overall talent and less team.

Same with Wilt and only 2 rings (And did played with HOFs)

Magic had Kareem. And also speaking of Kareems longevity simply isn't a match to Lebron who's playing more seasons but clearly far and a way playing better than Old Kareem did. Plus Kareem had 1980s Magic to help him win. Lebron has had nobody near that level on his team. Imagine Lebron with Prime Curry for a whole decade!? not the mention the other All star caliber players that they had.

Bird is not simply in the discussion. Nobody would say Lebron is a greater Small Forward or forward in general than Lebron. Lebrons longevity is too long. And has more MVPs and more titles. Bird played with many HOFs too.

Duncan although the greatest PF of all time, simply wasn't as dominant as either MJ or Lebron. Nowhere near as offensively gifted as either. Still a top 10 lock and borderline top 5 but not even greater than Kareem who's probably #3 on my all time list with a clear gap.

What I'm trying to say is Lebron and MJ are in their own tier now. It's those two pretty decent gap then everyone else.

[jojo4341]

I somewhat agree with that, but I have no problem someone claiming Kareem the goat. Remember he still got a "late" start having to stain college for 4 years. When I was growing up, he was considered the goat until MJ came along. Now there's the debate between MJ and LeBron. I think Kareems biggest knock that he was 2nd fiddle to magic through most of his 30s.

Sent from my NX729J using RealGM mobile app

[Cavsfansince84]

The only real knock on Kareem is the lack of team success from 75-79. Plus 73. Those are 6 of his best prime seasons with pretty little to show for it and Kareem's quiet style of leadership can be brought into question for it(he also had other issues going on but its part of how his career is looked at in retrospect). That's the primary reason I have him at 3rd or 4th but also still within the goat tier. At the same time though I think he had much more consistent defensive impact in his prime than MJ or LeBron did. Russell deserves to be in that tier imo. There's no perfect way to do it but if a guy wins 11 titles in 13 years with two very different rosters he is doing something right. While also being player/coach for two of them.

[bledredwine]

Found this on a YouTube comment - checks out but haven't checked every stat (someone go ahead)

To add more to the mountain of stats we've already established

Jordan carried the scoring every playoff series for his entire career and especially in the Finals.
No other player has had to do this.

1991 120/416 pts (28.8%) in wins 30.0 ppg
1992 144/432 pts (33.3%) in wins 36.0 ppg
1993 161/421 pts (38.2%) in wins 40.25ppg
1996 115/394 pts(29.2%) in wins 28.75ppg
1997 146/361 pts(40.4%) in wins 36.5 ppg
1998 140/362 pts(38.7%) in wins 35.0 ppg

Teammates with double digit scoring averages in Finals series wins:

LeBron
2012 = 22.6, 14.6, 11.6, 10.4
2013 = 19.6, 11.9, 10.6, 10.6
2016 = 27.1, 10.6, 10.3
2020 = 25.0, 12.8

Michael
1991 = 20.8, 14.6, 13.4
1992 = 20.8, 10.3
1993 = 21.2, 13.5, 11.2
1996 = 15.7, 13.0, 11.7
1997 = 20.0
1998 = 15.7, 15.2

James had 13 teammates with double digits in 4 series
Jordan had 14 with double digits in 6 series
Lebron had 3 average +22 pts
Michael never had any average 22 pts
Kyrie averaged not far from 30 PPG with constant clutch shots against GS.
No Bull ever did that other than Mike.

Scottie cost the Bulls game 5 in 1998 (6 pts) and was a non-factor in game 6 (8 pts).
Real super team stuff there. SMH.

[rzzzzz]

Bill Russell most rings but played in a league with way less overall talent and less team.

Yeah, and HE had Meadowlark Lemon and Curley Neal. Plus every game was fixed. Actually kind of a disgrace that the Washington Generals somehow beat him out of a title under the circumstances.

[bledredwine]

In Michael Jordan's final game with the Chicago Bulls, MJ scored 45 of the team's 87 points in Game 6 of the 1998 NBA Finals. He scored 51.7% of his team’s points winning the game (and championship) which is crazy.

On 35fga (15-35) and 15fta (12-15)

Which is an awesome stat line if you watched the defensive series and dry spell the Bulls were in. How many TO’s steals btw? You also forgot to mention the consecutive clutch layup, steal from Karl Malone, crossover and championship winning shot, one of the best finals sequences of all time.