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Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October

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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#541 » by eyriq » Wed Sep 4, 2024 6:16 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Getting lucky and drafting good AND running team are two separated things you should judge GM on.

At the end of a day more often than not GMs faith and perception is viewed through things he hardly ever had much control over ( draft lottery) but good teams leveradge other paths and not just rely on one strategy to save them.
Nuggets won championship with 1 lottery pick selected by them- Murray. They "won" Porter by missing playoffs with 46 wins and selecting last in lottery.
Celtics won title by benefiting from Billy King's epic blunder but also by taking massive risks with whole bunch of trades over years.
Bucks main core was made out of non lottery selected players etc.


My critique isn't with the draft picks. I remember quite clearly that those were underwhelming drafts at the time. EVERYTHING hinged on Porzingis and we barely missed it. I remember feeling devastated.

My critique is that he pivoted to win-now without a franchise player in place. It was foolish and short-sighted. You tank for a franchise player and focus on player-development with a young core. He got desperate and panicked.
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#542 » by jonbob17 » Wed Sep 4, 2024 7:25 pm

The funny thing about the desperation of Hennigan is how quickly the trade values of the Magic players were revealed.
Magic trade Harris for expirings, Pistons trade Harris for a still in his prime Blake Griffin 23/8/5 (granted Griffin’s peak only lasted another year and half due to injury)

Oladipo/Sabonis pick for Ibaka, Oladipo and Sabonis for 26 year old Paul George. Ibaka for Terrence Ross

So the guys the Magic traded turned into peak Paul George and Blake Griffin, not to mention how good Oladipo was in Indy before he got hurt and Sabonis pretty good in his own right and then turned into Haliburton.

The Magic ended up with TRoss, and with the expirings/cap space signed Fournier(pretty good), Biyombo(awful) Augustin (not good), Jeff Green(good player but didn’t work out in Orl). Ironically the pick that came over from Toronto eventually turned into Maxey or Fultz…gulp

The assets were there for Hennigan to get a 1a and 1b. The conspiracy theories about Hennigan doing a favor to OKC probably have merit.

I really liked Ibaka in OKC but his defense was in steep decline for 2 years when the Magic acquired him.
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#543 » by eyriq » Wed Sep 4, 2024 8:12 pm

I think from a high level a rebuild focused on the draft has the following phases.

1. Tank (acquire franchise players)
2. Identity formation (identify winning formula)
3. Re-tool (optimize around that identity)
4. Contention

Hennigan never acquired a franchise player, never identified a winning identity, and just plunged ahead in desperation. Just insane when you think back on it.
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#544 » by eyriq » Thu Sep 5, 2024 1:20 am

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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#545 » by pepe1991 » Thu Sep 5, 2024 5:41 am

eyriq wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Getting lucky and drafting good AND running team are two separated things you should judge GM on.

At the end of a day more often than not GMs faith and perception is viewed through things he hardly ever had much control over ( draft lottery) but good teams leveradge other paths and not just rely on one strategy to save them.
Nuggets won championship with 1 lottery pick selected by them- Murray. They "won" Porter by missing playoffs with 46 wins and selecting last in lottery.
Celtics won title by benefiting from Billy King's epic blunder but also by taking massive risks with whole bunch of trades over years.
Bucks main core was made out of non lottery selected players etc.


My critique isn't with the draft picks. I remember quite clearly that those were underwhelming drafts at the time. EVERYTHING hinged on Porzingis and we barely missed it. I remember feeling devastated.

My critique is that he pivoted to win-now without a franchise player in place. It was foolish and short-sighted. You tank for a franchise player and focus on player-development with a young core. He got desperate and panicked.


By large part, 2014 was hyped to be one of best drafts since 2003, Hennigan went balls deep into that draft with two lottery picks.
Issue, however, was that 2014 was nowhere near as good draft as it was sold to be ( pretty much same as 2017 draft).

Issue with notion that he pivoted toward winning is not looking at bigger picture. You flat out can't be in lottery for more than 4-5 years because no matter how underwhelming your selections are, they will either:
1) padd some stats on bad team and get payed by you
2) lure attention from other teams in FA , and by default become expensive

Hennigan trades were fiasco, but what execlly he could do?
2014-15 season:
He had Vuc on somewhat okey contract but taking part of salary. Age 24.
Oladipo averaging 18-4-4 ( as one of like 20 players that year to do so ), at age of 22, asking for +$20M a year in years when salary cap was $64M
Evan Fournier averaging efficient 12-2-2. Age 22.
Toby Harris locked on big deal, averaging 17-6-2 (with solid efficiency)
Rookies Gordon, Payton

He couldn't continue to hold onto roster that is getting expensive by day , continue to burn $10-20M a year contracts on 35 wins team under $70M salary cap restriction, in same time there was no point of sucking for more, new picks because there was no space to ad more, young talent and actually play and develop them, and it's not like 2016 draft was viewed as good one, it was viewed as two persons deep- Simmons as generational talent, and Ingram ( in retrospective, it's draft where Brown was probably BPA, Sabonis and Murray were legit stars, Simmons is pretty much out of nba at this point and Ingram is fine allstar, but not somebody that alters your franchise, and 9 others are nameless scrubs, mostly already out of nba).
His trades were rushed, bad and panic-like. That's granted, that got him fired after all.

Today it's easier to have bit more flexibility because salary cap is pretty much x2 from what it was 8 years ago.

Again, difference between Hennigan and Weltman is starting position.
Hennigan was pretty much hired and told "oh now go and trade best player in our history, btw he is crybaby that asked trade in public and that killed his trade value, he also now has cronical back problems and will need surgery, we just fired best coach we ever had last month. ....oh...and we are $11M over salary cap, stuck with declining Nelson, Hedo who dropped off cliff. But hey, there is more, your highest payed player in books, Arenas, was waived by amnesty, so he only exists in your salary books". - Good luck boy.

His starting position was impossible.


What Weltman found when he got hired?
Bismack Biyombo as highest payed player, who btw didn't crack top 60 highest payed players that year. Vuc, Evan, Gordon, Ross on okey and tradable contracts. If he wanted to trade them.
He even had salary cap to add Jonathan Simmons and DJ Augustin on his own in FA.

Weltman made decision to run that roster, not because he needed to, but because he wanted to, where Hennigan was hired to make million trades from day one with bunch of overpayed old players who were salary burden.
Thing is, Weltman is running this team for 8 years now. I'm yet to see single Magic roster under him that makes funcional sense. Including current one.
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#546 » by eyriq » Thu Sep 5, 2024 11:54 am

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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#547 » by VFX » Thu Sep 5, 2024 1:30 pm

pepe1991 wrote:
Weltman made decision to run that roster, not because he needed to, but because he wanted to, where Hennigan was hired to make million trades from day one with bunch of overpayed old players who were salary burden.
Thing is, Weltman is running this team for 8 years now. I'm yet to see single Magic roster under him that makes funcional sense. Including current one.


I’ve only said it here a million times now. The thing that irks me about Weltman is that he drafted his core in Suggs, Franz, and Paolo BUT he willingly chose to surround those guys with players that were rostered here BEFORE he chose them.

Like… what are the chances realistically that Wendell Carter, Jonathan Isaac, Gary Harris, and Cole Anthony are actually the guys you want to spend the next large amounts of cap space on to place next to that core?

Is it out of convenience? Is it complete luck that Weltman acquired those players and they happen to make perfect sense next to them after the fact?

The answer is probably no. Why? Because it’s absurd to build a team that way, with role players first, without knowing the skill sets of guys you are paying max money.
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#548 » by eyriq » Thu Sep 5, 2024 2:06 pm

VFX wrote:
I’ve only said it here a million times now. The thing that irks me about Weltman is that he drafted his core in Suggs, Franz, and Paolo BUT he willingly chose to surround those guys with players that were rostered here BEFORE he chose them.


This is a great point. He's done nothing to optimize this build yet.
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#549 » by p0peye » Thu Sep 5, 2024 5:41 pm

eyriq wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Getting lucky and drafting good AND running team are two separated things you should judge GM on.

At the end of a day more often than not GMs faith and perception is viewed through things he hardly ever had much control over ( draft lottery) but good teams leveradge other paths and not just rely on one strategy to save them.
Nuggets won championship with 1 lottery pick selected by them- Murray. They "won" Porter by missing playoffs with 46 wins and selecting last in lottery.
Celtics won title by benefiting from Billy King's epic blunder but also by taking massive risks with whole bunch of trades over years.
Bucks main core was made out of non lottery selected players etc.


My critique isn't with the draft picks. I remember quite clearly that those were underwhelming drafts at the time. EVERYTHING hinged on Porzingis and we barely missed it. I remember feeling devastated.

My critique is that he pivoted to win-now without a franchise player in place. It was foolish and short-sighted. You tank for a franchise player and focus on player-development with a young core. He got desperate and panicked.


IIRC, Henny was on a tight timeline to start winning. He had his faults and good sides, but IMHO his crush on Elfrid was what costed him a job in the end.
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#550 » by eyriq » Thu Sep 5, 2024 6:06 pm

p0peye wrote:
eyriq wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:
Getting lucky and drafting good AND running team are two separated things you should judge GM on.

At the end of a day more often than not GMs faith and perception is viewed through things he hardly ever had much control over ( draft lottery) but good teams leveradge other paths and not just rely on one strategy to save them.
Nuggets won championship with 1 lottery pick selected by them- Murray. They "won" Porter by missing playoffs with 46 wins and selecting last in lottery.
Celtics won title by benefiting from Billy King's epic blunder but also by taking massive risks with whole bunch of trades over years.
Bucks main core was made out of non lottery selected players etc.


My critique isn't with the draft picks. I remember quite clearly that those were underwhelming drafts at the time. EVERYTHING hinged on Porzingis and we barely missed it. I remember feeling devastated.

My critique is that he pivoted to win-now without a franchise player in place. It was foolish and short-sighted. You tank for a franchise player and focus on player-development with a young core. He got desperate and panicked.


IIRC, Henny was on a tight timeline to start winning. He had his faults and good sides, but IMHO his crush on Elfrid was what costed him a job in the end.
No, I agree, I think his vision was undermined by pressures from ownership because of the health of Devos. But I think him being so young and inexperienced undermined his credibility and his ability to navigate political waters, which is important as a GM. His hand was forced and he was left with nothing.
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#551 » by pepe1991 » Fri Sep 6, 2024 5:35 am

Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#552 » by jezzerinho » Fri Sep 6, 2024 9:16 am

pepe1991 wrote:


Well they're easily pleased.
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#553 » by pepe1991 » Fri Sep 6, 2024 9:31 am

jezzerinho wrote:
pepe1991 wrote:


Well they're easily pleased.


Got his bank account fat, lasted +10 years in nba, won 2 olympic medals, 3 world cup medals, and now will go and play in one of most breathtaking, historic cities in the world, Athenas.

And for Euroleague he will be great addition, they already went on final 4 last year without him.

Probably better than just rott on bench.

Tbh he said that he admires Olympiacos and wants to play there two years ago, ofc fans are exited , they landed career 14 ppg nba player who is stil not that old ( 32 ).
Life is what happens when you're busy making other plans. -John Lennon
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#554 » by Knightro » Fri Sep 6, 2024 12:46 pm

I really disliked the way the Magic were using Fournier by the end of his tenure, but I never had a problem with him as a person.

He always played hard and actually hit a lot of big shots.
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#555 » by Skybox » Fri Sep 6, 2024 12:53 pm

Knightro wrote:I really disliked the way the Magic were using Fournier by the end of his tenure, but I never had a problem with him as a person.

He always played hard and actually hit a lot of big shots.


Absolutely agree...no one competed harder (at least on the offensive end). He was not only an exceptional shooter, but a big fast guard that would go strong to the rim too. I'm happy for him and I hope he lights it up. People being dismissive of his talent, particularly during his tenure in ORL, just have some kind of vendetta. He's certainly not a complete player or a "best guy on a good team", but he always came to play and it wasn't his fault (or Vuc's) that noone else on the team could make a shot.
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#556 » by drsd » Fri Sep 6, 2024 3:13 pm

Traveling for work to the far=off. Sorry for the delay in a cat video:

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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#557 » by eyriq » Fri Sep 6, 2024 3:56 pm

Calvin Booth referred to "overlap" as the "silent killer". We still have too much overlap. Moe and Cole can't defend, pick one. Harris and KCP are 3&D spot up shooters, pick one. What other overlap is there?
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#558 » by Skybox » Fri Sep 6, 2024 4:53 pm

eyriq wrote:Calvin Booth referred to "overlap" as the "silent killer". We still have too much overlap. Moe and Cole can't defend, pick one. Harris and KCP are 3&D spot up shooters, pick one. What other overlap is there?


Suggs is no different than KCP until he proves otherwise. I'm really excited about Suggs - but I'll feel a LOT more confident in his growth after he repeats his 40% from 3 season and shows it's not a fluke...lots of worse things to be "redundant" at than these two killers, but they are (so far :roll: ) essentially the same player.

Black, thus far, is a smaller Isaac...solid defender who will hit an occasional open 3

If Franz and Paolo don't up their 3pt efficiency, they are a bit redundant in the way they tend to attack the defense...NOT a problem to lose sleep over, in itself, but it does require adapting the rest of the lineup to complement them (with shooters).

Jett and Houstan are virtually identical...assuming Jett shows he's an NBA player this year. Hopefully, he's got more in his bag.

2 of a lot of things but still lacking one big role player who can run an offense off the bench...maybe it's CoJo or Cole this season.
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#559 » by eyriq » Fri Sep 6, 2024 5:04 pm

Skybox wrote:
eyriq wrote:Calvin Booth referred to "overlap" as the "silent killer". We still have too much overlap. Moe and Cole can't defend, pick one. Harris and KCP are 3&D spot up shooters, pick one. What other overlap is there?


Suggs is no different than KCP until he proves otherwise. I'm really excited about Suggs - but I'll feel a LOT more confident in his growth after he repeats his 40% from 3 season and shows it's not a fluke...lots of worse things to be "redundant" at than these two killers, but they are (so far :roll: ) essentially the same player.

Black, thus far, is a smaller Isaac...solid defender who will hit an occasional open 3

If Franz and Paolo don't up their 3pt efficiency, they are a bit redundant in the way they tend to attack the defense...NOT a problem to lose sleep over, in itself, but it does require adapting the rest of the lineup to complement them (with shooters).

Jett and Houstan are virtually identical...assuming Jett shows he's an NBA player this year. Hopefully, he's got more in his bag.

2 of a lot of things but still lacking one big role player who can run an offense off the bench...maybe it's CoJo or Cole this season.


I was thinking about the young guys, too. Suggs provides more across the board than KCP or Harris do, and he's still developing. AB as is would get clumped into the KCP/Harris group, but he's still developing. Caleb and Jett project as three-point specialists that don't defend, but they are still developing too.
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Re: Official Offseason Thread 9.0: The Long Road to October 

Post#560 » by jezzerinho » Fri Sep 6, 2024 5:50 pm

Skybox wrote:
eyriq wrote:Calvin Booth referred to "overlap" as the "silent killer". We still have too much overlap. Moe and Cole can't defend, pick one. Harris and KCP are 3&D spot up shooters, pick one. What other overlap is there?


Suggs is no different than KCP until he proves otherwise. I'm really excited about Suggs - but I'll feel a LOT more confident in his growth after he repeats his 40% from 3 season and shows it's not a fluke...lots of worse things to be "redundant" at than these two killers, but they are (so far :roll: ) essentially the same player.

Black, thus far, is a smaller Isaac...solid defender who will hit an occasional open 3

If Franz and Paolo don't up their 3pt efficiency, they are a bit redundant in the way they tend to attack the defense...NOT a problem to lose sleep over, in itself, but it does require adapting the rest of the lineup to complement them (with shooters).

Jett and Houstan are virtually identical...assuming Jett shows he's an NBA player this year. Hopefully, he's got more in his bag.

2 of a lot of things but still lacking one big role player who can run an offense off the bench...maybe it's CoJo or Cole this season.


Jett and Houstan are very different players.

Agree with pretty.much all of the rest tho.

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