Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE — Bill Russell

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Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE — Bill Russell 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Sat Sep 7, 2024 6:16 pm

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1968-69.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 11:30am PST on Tuesday, September 10th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#2 » by Dr Positivity » Sat Sep 7, 2024 6:40 pm

This year is a mess to vote for. Wilt will probably not be on my ballot. He is stuck trying to translate his high post passing game from the Sixers while Lakers coach wants him to be more aggressive and I don't think it really comes together. Russell is clearly aging but may to be #1 by default. West misses 20 games, Oscar seems to be on the downside. Frazier puts up 1970 level production after the Bellamy trade and in the playoffs but his overall regular season line isn't that great. Unseld wins MVP but seems like he shouldn't have. Reed is probably challenging #1 for me.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#3 » by penbeast0 » Sat Sep 7, 2024 6:43 pm

For regular season, Russell would have slid down my list, possibly out of the top 5, but with his taking that team with it's weak guard (and strong forward) play to yet another ring, he's number one for me again. Not sure the rest of my list but MVP and ROY and only ATG player that was likeable in all of Bullets/Wizards history Wes Unseld will be somewhere in the top 5. :-)
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#4 » by eminence » Sat Sep 7, 2024 6:57 pm

Probably won't vote for any ABA players with Hawkins/Barry both missing big time (both showing good impact), but shoutout to Hannum for some excellent work with the Oaks, throwing in a shout to Jabali for stepping up when Barry went down.

Daniels/Jonesx2/Brown and plenty of others could've been good NBA players at this point (those 4 the ones I'm thinking of as guys who would've been Allstars and maybe contended for 2nd Team All-NBA spots), it's a bit of a bummer to see the talent spread so thin.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#5 » by penbeast0 » Sat Sep 7, 2024 7:11 pm

Top Teams:

Bullets went from the worst team in the East to the best RS record in the league but were swept by the Knicks in the playoffs (in a preview of their later finals sweep from Milwaukee which is still a traumatic memory). Wes Unseld clearly the difference though Monroe was the primary scorer and Gus Johnson was a decent two way force.

Lakers added Wilt to West and Baylor plus had the previous year's coach of the year in Butch Van Breda Koff to be the prohibitive better favorite to dominate the year but Wilt and BvBK butted heads all year and Wilt had trouble with he and Baylor having the same sweet spots and they only tied Wilt's former team for 2nd best record then lost in an ugly manner in the last seconds of Game 7. They were below average defensively but 2nd in the league offensively so I'm probably going with West as the highest rated out of their big three.

Philly overachieved with their deep balanced scoring attack despite their presumptive top big man in Luke Jackson playing only 25 games but were easily taken down by Boston in the playoffs. Hard to choose but probably Cunninghame is my leading candidate from them.

The Knicks were only 1 game back from the Lakers and Philly and only 3 from Baltimore with the highest SRS in the league as the other strong regular season team. Boston beats them 4-2 in the ECF. Frazier and Reed compete for the key player on the team; Reed played center which is the most key defensive spot (4th in league), Frazier probably the most key on offense (3rd in league). Both play 80+ games and are strong candidates.

Atlanta and Boston are a few games further back in the regular season. Atlanta loses to LA 4-1 in the playoffs; Zelmo Beaty and Lou Hudson share their scoring honors, Z is probably their best defender as well though his assist are quite low (1.7/g). I'd favor him over Hudson or Bill Bridges as their top candidate but probably not top 5 for me.

Boston returns to its tradition of best defense in the league coupled with weak (10th best) offense. Havlicek is their leading scorer with an excellent defensive rep but only shoots .405, way below league average efficiency. Howell is their best offensive player, Russell is still the main man with his defensive impact and rebounding.

The main man of note in the rest of the league is Elvin Hayes who leads an expansion San Diego Rockets team to the playoffs in their first year and is in consideration for top 5 in the league as well. Oscar is his normal amazing self but even with Lucas, still can't turn that into a winning record. Thurmond is healthy and gets 1st team all-D but, like Oscar, isn't enough.

In the ABA, their two biggest talents, Connie Hawkins and Rick Barry, both are injured for half the year. Hawkins' Pipers fall out of contention but Barry's Oaks go on to win the title without him behind Doug Moe and Larry Brown (and others). The MVP is Mel Daniels who is a fierce scorer, rebounder, and tough guy but not good enough for me to put him above guys like Unseld or Hayes this year.

1. Bill Russell
2. Wes Unseld
3. Willis Reed
4. Walt Frazier
5. Elvin Hayes

Open to being pushed off these spots, just make a strong argument without being nasty about it and alienating me as your reader.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#6 » by AEnigma » Sat Sep 7, 2024 7:40 pm

I do not understand voting for rookie Hayes over Thurmond or West (or Cunningham for that matter, although he is more of an honourable mention for me). West I think is a little more self-evident, so with Thurmond I will just say he won more games than Hayes did and was a much more serious postseason threat, going up 2-0 (on the road!) over the Lakers before the Warriors’ only capable scorer suffered a severely hampering injury.

Oscar also won more games than Hayes did, but as always, he suffered from playing in the tougher conference. :-?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#7 » by eminence » Sat Sep 7, 2024 7:46 pm

Would someone mind posting the Knicks stats pre/post Bells/DeBusschere trade?

Rough win/loss Wowy stats for a couple of star names from the season (not all in contention for POY voting, but to give perspective on teams)
Thurmond: 38-33 with (44 win pace), 3-8 without (22 win pace)
West: 43-18 with (58 win pace), 12-9 without (47 win pace)
Zelmo: 43-29 with (49 win pace), 5-5 without (41 win pace)
Gus Johnson: 36-13 with (60 win pace), 21-12 without (52 win pace)
Hawkins: 24-23 with (42 win pace), 12-19 without (32 win pace)
Barry: 30-5 with (70 win pace), 30-13 without (57 win pace)
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#8 » by AEnigma » Sat Sep 7, 2024 7:58 pm

Knicks pre-trade: 18-17, average score 108.7-107.8 — slightly behind the pace of the previous season’s 43-39 (+1.8 SRS).

Knicks post-trade 36-11, average score 112.4-103.0 — slightly ahead of the pace of the subsequent season’s 60-22 (+8.42 SRS).
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#9 » by eminence » Sat Sep 7, 2024 8:03 pm

AEnigma wrote:Knicks pre-trade: 18-17, average score 108.7-107.8 — slightly behind the pace of the previous season’s 43-39 (+1.8 SRS).

Knicks post-trade 36-11, average score 112.4-103.0 — slightly ahead of the pace of the subsequent season’s 60-22 (+8.42 SRS).


Thanks, yep, the Knicks were killer after the trade.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#10 » by AEnigma » Sat Sep 7, 2024 8:33 pm

eminence wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Knicks pre-trade: 18-17, average score 108.7-107.8 — slightly behind the pace of the previous season’s 43-39 (+1.8 SRS).

Knicks post-trade 36-11, average score 112.4-103.0 — slightly ahead of the pace of the subsequent season’s 60-22 (+8.42 SRS).

Thanks, yep, the Knicks were killer after the trade.

Bonus per game star effect:

Reed
16.9/14.0/2.1 on 54.4% efficiency (35.1 minutes) before; 24.3/14.9/2.5 on 57.4% efficiency (40.0 minutes) after

Frazier
13.4/3.9/5.5 on 53.8% efficiency (29.1 minutes) before; 20.6/7.9/9.7 on ~56.6% efficiency (42.6 minutes) after
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#11 » by penbeast0 » Sat Sep 7, 2024 9:34 pm

AEnigma wrote:I do not understand voting for rookie Hayes over Thurmond or West (or Cunningham for that matter, although he is more of an honourable mention for me). West I think is a little more self-evident, so with Thurmond I will just say he won more games than Hayes did and was a much more serious postseason threat, going up 2-0 (on the road!) over the Lakers before the Warriors’ only capable scorer suffered a severely hampering injury.

Oscar also won more games than Hayes did, but as always, he suffered from playing in the tougher conference. :-?



Because I think doing it with an expansion team with very questionable talent around him and talent that hasn't played together or in a system is difficult. More difficult than what Thurmond faced. Not a huge Elvin Hayes fan; high volume low efficiency scorers are not something I favor, but I think he did a lot with a very shaky situation.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#12 » by One_and_Done » Sat Sep 7, 2024 9:42 pm

I'd be voting for Wilt, Zelmo, and even Frazier, over some of the names I'm seeing. It's an open secret that Frazier deserved more credit for the Knicks run than Reed did. Unseld's MVP this year is a candidate for worst MVP of all-time.

At least next vote my #1 is easy; Kareem.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#13 » by OhayoKD » Sat Sep 7, 2024 11:01 pm

penbeast0 wrote:For regular season, Russell would have slid down my list, possibly out of the top 5,

I'd say Russell has the strongest argument as the best regular season player that year though I imagine at this point you can guess what the key points of that argument would be
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#14 » by trelos6 » Sat Sep 7, 2024 11:20 pm

ElGee wrote:estimated team numbers for 1969:


Estimated Pace-Adjusted Numbers 1969

ORtg

Code: Select all

1.  Cincinnati   100.4
2.  Los Angeles   99.0
3.  New York     98.4
4.  Philadelphia  98.2
5.  Atlanta      97.6
6.  Detroit      97.3
LEAGUE AVG.      95.2
7.  Baltimore    94.8
8.  Seattle      94.3
9.  Phoenix      93.1
9.  Boston       93.1
9.  Milwaukee    93.1
12. San Diego    92.0
13. San Francisco 91.2
14. Chicago      91.0


DRtg

Code: Select all

1.  Boston       88.4
2.  Baltimore    91.3
3.  San Diego    92.2
4.  San Francisco 92.5
5.  Chicago      93.0
6.  New York     93.3
7.  Philadelphia  94.0
LEAGUE AVG.      95.2
8.  Los Angeles   95.4
9.  Atlanta      95.6
10. Milwaukee    97.5
11. Seattle      98.3
12. Detroit      100.0
13. Phoenix      100.5
14. Cincinnati   101.4


Code: Select all

        Pts/75  Reb/75 Ast/75 Rel TS%
======================================
West     21.0   3.5   5.6   5.9%
Monroe   19.7   1.9   3.7   0.2%
Baylor   19.6   8.4   4.3   0.9%
Billy C   18.1   9.3   2.6   0.1%
Oscar    17.8   4.6   7.1   8.8%
Reed     17.8   12.2   1.9   7.1%     
Frazier   15.2   5.4   6.8   6.9%
Wilt     14.4   14.8   3.2   7.3%
Thurmond  14.3   13.1   2.4   -3.4%
Unseld   11.2   14.7   2.1   2.4%
Russell   7.0   13.7   3.5   -2.4%


Cincinnati were the #1 offensive team, and this was due to Oscar. Throughout the 60’s, he’s been efficient, quite often +5 to +8 rTS%, and one of the top scorers per 75. On top of all this, he’s the best distributor in the league. Oscar ends the decade as the OPOY.

Jerry West is again very close, and ultimately, most years my OPOY came down to 2 fantastic and efficient scorers who are great distributors. West is still a great distributor, and the Lakers offense was fantastic. West’s efficiency dropped slightly in the playoffs, but his playmaking went up slightly also, and an increase in scoring output.

Frazier over Willis Reed for 3rd . Some great efficiency numbers and the team has a great offense. Walt gets the nod for playmaking.

OPOY
1.Oscar Robertson
2.Jerry West
3.Walt Frazier

HM:Willis Reed

The legend, in his final season, continues to anchor the leagues best defence. Bill Russell for DPOY is a no brainer. Thurmond for 2nd, but 3rd is a tough one. A few options. Unseld, Havlicek, Hayes, Reed, Wilt of course, and Walt / Debusschere combo. I think I'll go Unseld and Debusschere for now, but I can be swayed.

DPOY

1.Bill Russell
2.Nate Thurmond
3.Wes Unseld

HM: Dave DeBusschere

POY is a tough one. If you give me one player to build a team around, I'll go Jerry West. However, what Russell does on D and with his creation can't be denied also. Then we have other players to consider. Oscar is always present, but some new names, Reed, Unseld had strong seasons. Wilt was still around, and performing well offensively in the regular season, and Havlicek and Walt Frazier were coming into their own 2 way play. I'm going with the order below, but this year is an extremely difficult year to rank the top 5.

POY
1.Jerry West
2.Bill Russell
3.Walt Frazier
4.Willis Reed
5.Oscar Robertson

HM:John Havlicek
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#15 » by AEnigma » Sat Sep 7, 2024 11:30 pm

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Oscar Robertson
2. Jerry West
3. Warren Jabali


For a ninth consecutive season, Oscar finishes top five in scoring average and top three in scoring efficiency (among qualified players). For a third consecutive season, and fifth time overall, he leads the league in TS ADD (flawed as it is). For the seventh time overall, he leads the league in assists per game. Yet despite all that, Oscar again misses the playoffs with a winning record in games he played, simply because his team was in the superior conference. Meanwhile, Jerry West, now with two teammates more talented than any Royal who has ever played with Oscar, saunters back into the Finals. I continue to give West credit for being a consistently strong postseason performer, and this year for being able to accommodate the awkward Baylor/Wilt fit, but I refuse to disproportionately reward silver spoon environments.

However, I will take the opportunity to reward Jabali for leading his team to an ABA title over the team that would win three of the next four, all without the player who pre-injury had looked likely to win league MVP. Cunningham and Frazier are worthy candidates as well, but they had no standout achievements this year, and unlike Jabali, they will have future opportunities for acknowledgment.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell
2. Nate Thurmond
3. Wilt Chamberlain


13/13 for Russell (even if I thought it should have been 12/13). Thurmond gives him a good push though, and Wilt for all his offensive awkwardness next to Baylor does an excellent job elevating what had been regular defensive mediocrity for the Lakers.

Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell
2. Jerry West
3. Willis Reed
4. Nate Thurmond
5. Oscar Robertson


No better proof of the scoring blindness inherent to the media and audience that Russell was not essentially deified for winning three road series over the other three best teams in the league — one of them playing at an 8-SRS level and another the league’s first true “superteam” combination — before retiring and seeing his team drop to two seasons of total irrelevance (in direct contrast to what had consistently happened with his primary positional rival). And he did it all as a player-coach. This two-year run is one of the most impressive feats in team sport history. I know this vote will not be unanimous, but frankly it should be. No one else brought more success to their team.
drza wrote:Russell, I just don't see any way in the world he doesn't get the top slot. The one "argument" against him seems to be the one that still makes me grind my teeth often today...the thought that if your biggest impact is defensive, instead of offensive, you just can't make as big of an impact on a game as an offensive player. That's just incredibly wrong to me, and this seems to be the most glaring counter-example in NBA history. Russell was THE best player in the NBA for a full half of the game...and then he was also a good offensive player on top of that (good in total offense, if not obviously a great scorer). How can that not add up to a superstar? I don't care HOW the impact is made, if it's made than it is what it is. You can't just attenuate it because it happens to not fit the textbook of how it's supposed to be done.

Also, "intangibles" has always been a secretly dirty word in player evaluations because they connote a sense of mysticism with wiggle room. Because they weren't "provable", so therefore they may not be as strong as numbers in a boxscore that can be pointed out. One of the reasons that I really like the growing body of advanced stats is that, perfect or not, they shrink the working space of "intangible" because we are now able to measure things that weren't measured before. Bringing that to Russell, it seems to me that his "intangibles" were in fact very tangible and just weren't measured very well at the time. But again, things like ElGee's (and ThaRegul8ter's) numerical breakdowns show me that, even with the rudimentary data that we have access to, we can very clearly see some of Russell's direct impact. Not just in a "the team won, he was the best player so he must be great" kind of way, but in a way that isolates his huge impact even from his supporting cast's. Russell is a clear #1 to me this year.
ThaRegul8r wrote:
bastillon wrote:don't you think that Celtics winning the title because of Russell's dominating defense over West's offense, Russell having worse supporting cast out of the two, West missing a lot more games in the RS and, on top of all of this, Russell both playing AND coaching which makes his intangibles this year insane... don't you think that's enough to sway your opinion ?

This. A thousand times this. If after everything that's been posted in this thread regarding this season—by both myself and others—if none of that does it, then I'm afraid I just don't know what will. And regarding the last thing bastillon said, no other superstar in NBA history ever did that. People just aren't considering that—to do everything Russell did for the team and then coach it as well. Go out and guard Willis Reed and Wilt Chamberlain back-to-back, and then coach the team too. Are you serious?

And another thing to add to what bastillon said, Russell was 4th in the league in MVP voting, and West was unranked. Russell played in the toughest division in the league. The top records in the league all came from the Eastern Division. The top four SRS in the league came from the Eastern Division. Wilt said, “by all logic Boston shouldn't be in the finals.” But they were. Everyone knows why.
AEnigma wrote:[Russell] closed his career by serving as a player-coach and:
    - coming back 3-1 on the road against a [60-win, defending champion] 76ers team;
    - winning the title over a Lakers team that had generated an even higher MoV when West played than the MoV of those 76ers;
    - and then repeating as champions by winning three road series (only matched by the 1995 Rockets), including against the Wilt/West/Baylor super-team (three 10-time all-NBA players!) and a Knicks team that with DeBusschere had been even better than those 1968 76ers and Lakers teams.

I thought Reed should have won MVP, and voters evidently realised their mistake after the postseason. For me, this is Reed’s definite peak, and while he may not have been the third best player in the league, he was absolutely one of the three most significant to the season. The Knicks and Lakers were similarly competitive with the Celtics with similar calibre supporting casts and similar disputes over the team’s true best player. West takes second because I am confident enough in advantage in raw quality of play to forgive the twenty fewer games player, but Reed’s case was right there with him.

Thurmond is statistically one of the three most impactful players in the league. Lack of team success is enough to drag him down to fourth… but he had a conceivable path to second just like in 1967.
AEnigma wrote: Thurmond takes a lot of grief for his poor shot efficiency, and some have even unfairly maligned him as a chucker (he was not, he just played heavy minutes in a fast league). Look at those 1969 Warriors. Jeff Mullins is rightfully their leading scorer, although that year I think there around fifteen scorers I would take over him. Past Mullins, they have an inefficient Rudy LaRusso as their second option, and then by necessity Nate Thurmond is the third option. Thurmond is an ineffective scorer, do not get me wrong, and this is his biggest weakness relative to almost every other all-time centre. If you need Thurmond to be your third best scorer, it is pretty ugly… but man, not many teams would ever need Thurmond to handle the scoring load needed on the 1969 Warriors. The team also misses their best passer for 30 games, further exacerbating their offensive situation. Terrible offensive year, but the team structure makes him looks worse than he actually is, and I do not really believe that his 1967 self would do any better or that his 1969 self would do worse on the 1967 team.

The playoffs come around. The Warriors build a shocking 2-0 road lead against the Lakers. And then… Jeff Mullins gets hurt. He manages to be in half-decent playing shape by Game 6 (which turns into a brutal blow-out), but by then it is too late. Games 3-5, he averages 3 points in 18.7 minutes per game on 20% efficiency. The team’s only real scoring option, reduced to that. How many centres are winning in that circumstance? You look at what Russell did that year on the Celtics. Do team results change if you swap the two of them for the postseason? Margins were close in the Finals, but I am not sure the results do change (setting aside Russell’s unparalleled clutch factor). And what would we say if Jeff Mullins stays healthy, and the Lakers are pushed to seven games or possibly even lose?

Finally, Oscar beats out a strong group of alternatives — namely, Wilt, Frazier, and Cunningham — for reasons expressed in the OPoY section. Demonstrable top three player who was only kept out of the postseason because of severe conference imbalance and pitiful support.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#16 » by eminence » Sun Sep 8, 2024 12:10 am

Who/how did the Hawks defend West (or was there an injury issue), first glance, excellent work from them. Joe Caldwell scored over half of his series points in game 2 going for 34.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#17 » by penbeast0 » Sun Sep 8, 2024 1:00 am

AEnigma wrote:Offensive Player of the Year

1. Oscar Robertson
2. Jerry West
3. Warren Jabali


For a ninth consecutive season, Oscar finishes top five in scoring average and top three in scoring efficiency (among qualified players). For a third consecutive season, and fifth time overall, he leads the league in TS ADD (flawed as it is). For the seventh time overall, he leads the league in assists per game. Yet despite all that, Oscar again misses the playoffs with a winning record in games he played, simply because his team was in the superior conference. Meanwhile, Jerry West, now with two teammates more talented than any Royal who has ever played with Oscar, saunters back into the Finals. I continue to give West credit for being a consistently strong postseason performer, and this year for being able to accommodate the awkward Baylor/Wilt fit, but I refuse to disproportionately reward silver spoon environments.

However, I will take the opportunity to reward Jabali for leading his team to an ABA title over the team that would win three of the next four, all without the player who pre-injury had looked likely to win league MVP. Cunningham and Frazier are worthy candidates as well, but they had no standout achievements this year, and unlike Jabali, they will have future opportunities for acknowledgment.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell
2. Nate Thurmond
3. Wilt Chamberlain


13/13 for Russell (even if I thought it should have been 12/13). Thurmond gives him a good push though, and Wilt for all his offensive awkwardness next to Baylor does an excellent job elevating what had been regular defensive mediocrity for the Lakers.

Player of the Year

1. Bill Russell
2. Jerry West
3. Willis Reed
4. Nate Thurmond
5. Oscar Robertson


No better proof of the scoring blindness inherent to the media and audience that Russell was not essentially deified for winning three road series over the other three best teams in the league — one of them playing at an 8-SRS level and another the league’s first true “superteam” combination — before retiring and seeing his team drop to two seasons of total irrelevance (in direct contrast to what had consistently happened with his primary positional rival). And he did it all as a player-coach. This two-year run is one of the most impressive feats in team sport history. I know this vote will not be unanimous, but frankly it should be. No one else brought more success to their team.
AEnigma wrote:[Russell] closed his career by serving as a player-coach and:
    - coming back 3-1 on the road against a [60-win, defending champion] 76ers team;
    - winning the title over a Lakers team that had generated an even higher MoV when West played than the MoV of those 76ers;
    - and then repeating as champions by winning three road series (only matched by the 1995 Rockets), including against the Wilt/West/Baylor super-team (three 10-time all-NBA players!) and a Knicks team that with DeBusschere had been even better than those 1968 76ers and Lakers teams.

I thought Reed should have won MVP, and voters evidently realised their mistake after the postseason. For me, this is Reed’s definite peak, and while he may not have been the third best player in the league, he was absolutely one of the three most significant to the season. The Knicks and Lakers were similarly competitive with the Celtics with similar calibre supporting casts and similar disputes over the team’s true best player. West takes second because I am confident enough in advantage in raw quality of play to forgive the twenty fewer games player, but Reed’s case was right there with him.

Thurmond is statistically one of the three most impactful players in the league. Lack of team success is enough to drag him down to fourth… but he had a conceivable path to second just like in 1967.
AEnigma wrote: Thurmond takes a lot of grief for his poor shot efficiency, and some have even unfairly maligned him as a chucker (he was not, he just played heavy minutes in a fast league). Look at those 1969 Warriors. Jeff Mullins is rightfully their leading scorer, although that year I think there around fifteen scorers I would take over him. Past Mullins, they have an inefficient Rudy LaRusso as their second option, and then by necessity Nate Thurmond is the third option. Thurmond is an ineffective scorer, do not get me wrong, and this is his biggest weakness relative to almost every other all-time centre. If you need Thurmond to be your third best scorer, it is pretty ugly… but man, not many teams would ever need Thurmond to handle the scoring load needed on the 1969 Warriors. The team also misses their best passer for 30 games, further exacerbating their offensive situation. Terrible offensive year, but the team structure makes him looks worse than he actually is, and I do not really believe that his 1967 self would do any better or that his 1969 self would do worse on the 1967 team.

The playoffs come around. The Warriors build a shocking 2-0 road lead against the Lakers. And then… Jeff Mullins gets hurt. He manages to be in half-decent playing shape by Game 6 (which turns into a brutal blow-out), but by then it is too late. Games 3-5, he averages 3 points in 18.7 minutes per game on 20% efficiency. The team’s only real scoring option, reduced to that. How many centres are winning in that circumstance? You look at what Russell did that year on the Celtics. Do team results change if you swap the two of them for the postseason? Margins were close in the Finals, but I am not sure the results do change (setting aside Russell’s unparalleled clutch factor). And what would we say if Jeff Mullins stays healthy, and the Lakers are pushed to seven games or possibly even lose?

Finally, Oscar beats out a strong group of alternatives — namely, Wilt, Frazier, and Cunningham — for reasons expressed in the OPoY section. Demonstrable top three player who was only kept out of the postseason because of severe conference imbalance and pitiful support.


You put a lot of emphasis on team results for Oscar, Jabali, etc. but don't even mention Wes Unseld. It isn't hard to make a case against Unseld in this deep a year of candidates but the league MVP should at least earn a few words to explain why you don't have him top 5 with the type of criteria you seem to be using.
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#18 » by falcolombardi » Sun Sep 8, 2024 1:37 am

DPOY-
1-RUSSEL
2-THURMOND
3-UNSELD

OPOY-
1-WEST
2-OSCAR
3-WARREN JABALI

POY
1-RUSSEL
2-THURMOND
3-WEST
4- OSCAR
5-WARREN

dpoy goes without saying, russel led his team to a true underdog ring at 35 years old beating teams with more stars and talent than them at that point (knicks, lakers) and did it with his defense

Wilt is harshly punished for his messy performance with los angeles results wise but 4th/5th is the lowest i can justify to myself being open to voting unseld or reed above him even if they prolly sre not truly on his level defensively for the yesr i will trust opinions of the time and give unseld some love

Thurmond was just a DAWG and perennially led his teams to overperform their talent level

Offensively i prefer oscar slightly over west but through no fault of his own oscar team was just not relevant in the league picture.

Warren jabali is not someone i know much about but the title run even in a weaker aba league stands out

For POY i just think russel is in a league of his own, thurmond is the biggest overachiever after him and oscar is too good for me to rank anyone below

Wilt is the big missing piece from top 5, no way he is a worse player than jabali but he is harshly punished this year for injury/teamwork issues
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#19 » by AEnigma » Sun Sep 8, 2024 2:04 am

penbeast0 wrote:You put a lot of emphasis on team results for Oscar, Jabali, etc. but don't even mention Wes Unseld. It isn't hard to make a case against Unseld in this deep a year of candidates but the league MVP should at least earn a few words to explain why you don't have him top 5 with the type of criteria you seem to be using.

What team results? He was swept in the first round, and not even by the Celtics (although even if he had been, that would still qualify as a worse result than the three teams who actually faced the Celtics). If I were to list the teams closest to a title this year, they would be the Celtics, then the Lakers and Knicks, then the Warriors or 76ers in some order, then the Hawks, and then the Bullets. And the Hawks are the only team without a player I assess as significantly better and indeed “more valuable” than Unseld.

He was the league MVP, but I already said Reed should have won instead, and the subsequent pivot to Reed and West even though Kareem arrived, had an even more impressive rookie effect, and was far more apparently better signifies to me that voters realised Unseld should not have been their pick. Like Iverson and Rose after him, Unseld was a fringe top ten player who exploited a good record — but for (R)PoY purposes, at least those two had a reasonable title push in the postseason! And without a serious title push, I am never going to vote for a guy I think is the ~thirteenth best player in basketball (although injuries to Connie and Barry can bump him up to that top ten fringe). When it comes down to it, I think Hayes has a better impact case and postseason case than Unseld does, and Hayes won and impacted his team less than Oscar and Thurmond did.

You are already voting Unseld higher than anyone did in the prior project or will this project, but I have rarely cared about people letting a bit of personal bias colour their votes, and at least I can see you continuing to give him some voting attention in future years. However, everyone else who voted and potentially will vote for him is doing so because of what was essentially a fluke regular season result not inherently tied to his own quality of play, unless the argument is that outlier rebounding and free throw rate (but not scoring) meant he peaked to an outlier degree as a rookie. In 1970 he unexpectedly pushed the Knicks and thrice outplayed Reed, and in 1971 he won the conference (before being obliterated by the Bucks), yet the 2010 voters, including you, awarded him with… one fifth place vote total across both years. How can you go from saying this in the adjacent season:
penbeast0 wrote:Wes Unseld, great attitude and team play but not great numbers and surrounded by talent
… to ranking him #2 this season essentially because of heightened regular season win totals, all while also claiming your #1 is pretty much solely there because of the postseason.

And then the most truly baffling part is that you go on to imply a contradiction in the application of my criteria. :-?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1968-69 UPDATE 

Post#20 » by OhayoKD » Sun Sep 8, 2024 3:36 am

Vote

1. Bill Russell

What Russell achieved this year is likely the greatest feat in the history of sport. Accordingly, I think a unanimous ballot would be appropriate:

Spoiler:
MrLurker wrote:Well it is the combination of results when Russell played - as well as the results when Russell did not play. Were the Celtics a better roster than Jordan's Bulls or Kareem's Lakers or Lebron's Heat when they beat West and Wilt together following a victory over a very strong New York side?

That Cleveland championship comes closer - but despite the 73 wins I do not think the Warriors and Raptors really measure up as opponents and that still leaves a 7-championship gap unaccounted.

...

Hondo averaged 29/8/9 in 1971. The Celtics had also replaced Russell with a great coach and a great center in Cowens - the result was not awe inspiring. The team improved again in 1972 but I'd struggle to say they were legitimate title contenders. A similar story isn't there for the teams of the two players with 5 less championships. Neither can say they beat a team like the Wilt-West Lakers - not that the Knicks were scrubs.

I do not understand your point on Baylor. The fit was not great but that is a talented third-option. Better than anyone besides Hondo on Boston. Should we dismiss 1971 because the Lakers were injured? 91 for the Lakers being banged up. The Jazz for running an archaic offense? 2012 because the best team - by srs - in the league lost its best player??

AEnigma wrote:VOTE: Bill Russell
He closed his career by serving as a player-coach and was consequently one of the few players to be the best player on title teams with distinct rosters and head coaches. In that role, he:
    - came back 3-1 on the road against an 8-SRS defending champion 76ers team;
    - won the title over a Lakers team that had generated an even higher MoV when West played than the MoV of those 76ers;
    - and then repeated as champions by winning three road series (only matched by the 1995 Rockets), including series against the Wilt/West/Baylor super-team and against a Knicks team that with DeBusschere had been even better than those 1968 76ers and Lakers teams.
.

OhayoKD wrote:The [b]95 Bulls clearly lost more in Jordan and Grant. Why are you jumping to 99? The Jordan-less 95 Bulls posted a higher raw srs and significantly closer to the top opponents than the 71 Celtics who at that point had a better version of Hondo, a better coach, and a replacement for Bill Russell.

The 94 Bulls were a more legitimate contender than the 72 Celtics despite experiencing a roster drop-off more similar to the 70 Celtics.

We can also run this with Bird's Celtics, the KD-Curry Warriors, ect and ect, Dynastic teams are not supposed to turn average, below average, or slightly above average in the absence of a fire-sale. Not even when they lose top-10 calibre players. Just like they are not supposed to stay the best team in the league when a great's best teammates miss a sizable sample of games(Russell - hondo), or keep winning when their two best effectively join forces, or when the core of their inital superteam is gutted.

The greatest winner with the greatest resume also looks like a statistical outlier in all the facets he conceivably could with the data available in the time period. You can shout "variance" at the abyss, but all that does is call into question certainty. The evidence still flows in one direction, and there is very little flowing the other.
[.spoiler]


What is likely the weakest iteration of the Celtics are pretty close to being the best regular-season team by SRS and still pretty good going by record. They were 2-3 and -2 without Russell in 1969 itself. They were a 35-win team and -1.9 without Russell the next year(8-point healthy drop off in a period of low srs). And they were at 46-wins and +2 SRS(at this point SRS was actually higher than normal due to expansion) having replaced Russell adequately.

In the absence of real evidence Russell needed good offense to be very valuable, in addition to absence of real evidence someone else offered more to their team this season, in addition to Russell being his own coach and the most portable superstar in the league, I would have little reason to pick against Russell even just going of the regular season,

And then we get to the playoffs:
[[spoiler]quote]
ThaRegul8r wrote:
1969 Eastern Division Semifinals - Boston Celtics (48-34) vs. Philadelphia 76ers (54-28)

Boston “surprised” Philadelphia, winning Game 1 114-100. Havlicek scored a game-high 35 points, Sam Jones had 20, Bailey Howell and Larry Siegfried 16, and Russell “scored only two points, but he blocked 13 shots, rebounded 15 times, had eight assists, and intimidated the 76ers into one of their worst shooting nights of the season, 35.2% [38-for-108]” (The Milwaukee Journal, March 27, 1969).

If you look at the statistics, you have to wonder how the Celtics managed to win.

The 76ers out-rebounded the Celtics, 75-51, and took 108 shots to 91 for Boston. They out-hustled the winners off the offensive boards, 29-9.

How did they lose?

76ers’ Coach Jack Ramsey had the answer in two words — Bill Russell.


The 34-year old Russell scored only two points, but his 6-foot-10 frame was the difference as Boston took a 1-0 lead in the best-of-7 series.

Russell blocked 13 shots, took down 15 rebounds, handed out eight assists, and more importantly, intimidated the 76ers into one of their worst shooting nights of the season.

Philadelphia shot 35.2 per cent from the field.

Ramsay gave all the credit to Russell, the player-coach of the Celtics. “In my opinion, he was the difference. He’s always the difference when we play Boston.”


While Russell intimidated Philadelphia shooters, Boston shot 43-for-91 (47.3%) from the floor. Boston led 60-47 at the half, and the 76ers never got closer than five. Billy Cunningham led Philadelphia with 27. Hal Greer shot 3-for-21 (14.3%). Havlicek held Bill Bradley to 10 points, and Howell and Nelson held DeBusschere to nine (The Southeast Missourian, April 9, 1969).

Boston won Game 2 134-103 in Philadelphia, Bailey Howell with 29, John Havlicek with 24, Larry Siegfried with 20, Satch Sanders with 18 and Emmette Bryant with 15. Boston led 55-54 at the half, despite Russell picking up four fouls, and the ejection of Sam Jones, Red Auerbach, and publicist Howie McHugh during a first quarter argument.

Boston won Game 3 125-118 to take a 3-0 series lead. Sam Jones led Boston with 26 points, and John Havlicek scored 23, 19 in the first half. Russell warned, “I remember what happened last year,” referring to Boston coming back from a 3-1 deficit against Philadelphia last year.

Philadelphia won Game 4, 119-116, behind Archie Clark’s game-high 29 points on 13-for-18 shooting (72.2%), and Hal Greer’s 24 points (8-15 FG) and game-high seven assists. Darrell Imhoff scored 22 before fouling out, and Billy Cunningham had 19. Havlicek led Boston with 28, Bailey Howell scored 22, Sam Jones 19, and Russell scored 14 points and grabbed 29 rebounds, fouled Darrell Imhoff out of the game, and held reserve center George Wilson scoreless. “I've got to feel optimistic about our chances,” said coach Jack Ramsay. “That was the best game Russell has played in the series. And we still beat him. If that was his best game—and it was—and if we won, how can I but feel optimistic about our chances?” (Beaver County Times, April 2, 1969). Boston shot 46-for-113 from the floor (40.7%) and 24 of 41 from the line (58.5%) to Philadelphia's 46-for-90 from the floor (51.1%) and 27 of 38 from the line (71.1%). Larry Siegfried, who led the league in free throw percentage at 86.4 percent, was 4 of 9 (44.4%). “We got 23 more shots than they did and three more free throws,” Russell said. “You can't ask for any more than that” (Lewiston Evening Journal, April 2, 1969).

Boston won Game 5 93-90 to win the series 4-1.

1969 Eastern Division Semifinals - Boston Celtics (48-34) vs. New York Knicks (55-27)

Boston, an aging team troubled by injuries and the severe travel conditions of the NBA schedule, appears revitalized for the playoffs, which normally offer at least a day’s rest between games. As usual, center Bill Russell, their player-coach, holds the key to Boston’s success, and he dominated the Philadelphia series.


Boston won Game 1 108-100. John Havlicek led Boston with 25 points, Bailey Howell had 21, Sam Jones 18, and 6-foot guard Emmette Bryant played 40 minutes, scored 13 points, grabbed 11 rebounds and passed for eight assists. “Boston’s team defense was one of the best I’ve seen this year, but Emmette was the key to the game,” said Willis Reed (St. Petersburg Times, Apr. 7, 1969). Russell played the full 48 minutes and grabbed 16 rebounds. Walt Frazier led New York with a career-high 34 points. “Frazier can’t beat us by himself if we can hold the other guys down,” said Bailey Howell. Willis Reed had 24, “but was controlled by Russell.”

Like vintage wine, the Boston Celtics improve with age.

Spurred by 35-year-old player-coach Bill Russell, the Celtics, seeking their 11th National Basketball Association playoff championship in 13 years, took another step towards attaining that goal Sunday afternoon by beating the Knicks 108-100.

Unfortunately for the Knicks, who were coming off an impressive four-game sweep of Baltimore in their playoff opener, Russell wants another championship and he doesn’t intend to let New York stand in his way.


In Game 2, Russell grabbed 29 rebounds, scored 14 points and “was his usual intimidating self on defense” (The Southeast Missourian, Apr. 10, 1969) to lead Boston to a 112-97 win.

BOSTON — (AP) — The Boston Celtics, led by player-coach Bill Russell threw up a tight early defense and shackled ice-cold New York in the first half enroute to a 112-97 victory over the Knicks and a 2-0 lead in their Eastern Division final series in the National Basketball Association playoffs.

Russell, who has led the Celtics to 10 championships in 12 years,was the dominating factor as he virtually intimidated the New York sharpshooters.

Russell had 11 of his 14 points and 21 of his 29 rebounds in the first two periods. With the Celtics in front 95-69 and nearly 8½ minutes remaining Russell went to the bench for a well deserved rest as a capacity crowd of 14,933 gave him a standing ovation.


The Knicks shot 3-for-23 in the first quarter (13.0%), and were 9-for-47 at the half (19.1%). “Russell is a great defensive player—he’s the greatest defensive center who ever lived,” said Knicks coach Red Holzman.

New York won Game 3 101-91, Frazier leading the Knicks with 26 points, 15 in the first half. “We were embarrassed last night in Boston,” Frazier said. “If a guy has any pride at all, he’d be up for this one” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 11, 1969). Bill Bradley had 18 points and “did a fine defensive job on John Havlicek, holding him to eight points.” “Player-Coach Bill Russell […] did his best to bring Boston back with 10 of his 16 points in the final quarter and a total of 20 rebounds […].” The Knicks shot 50 percent from the field, “avoiding the shadow of Russell, who intimidated them terribly when he wasn’t blocking shots Wednesday night.” Frazier said, “The difference was we took our outside shots and didn’t challenge Russell” (The Tuscaloosa News, April 11, 1969). “It was a critical game,” said Willis Reed. “If we didn’t win, they’d be up 3-0. But now we’re right back in there” (The Rock Hill Herald, Apr. 3, 1969). Russell led Boston with 16, and Bailey Howell, Sam Jones and Emmette Bryant had 15 each.

Boston won Game 4 97-96 to go up 3-1, Russell leading the way with 21 points and 23 rebounds. Havlicek had 19 and Don Nelson 15. Russell scored a crucial basket with 1:45 left to give Boston a 95-92 lead, and two free throws by Willis Reed cut the margin to one. The Celtics committed a 24-second violation with 1:06 left, and both teams missed shots with the Knicks grabbing a rebound with 34 seconds left and calling timeout with 25 seconds left.

Boston’s mighty defense, led by Player-Coach Bill Russell, was the difference as the Celtics edged the Knicks 97-96 Sunday before a crowd of 13,506 and a national television audience.

[…]

Leading 95-94, the defending NBA champion Celtics threw up a tight defense in the last 25 seconds.

The Knicks brought the ball into play, intending to have Walt Frazier take a shot. However, Frazier, confronted by John Havlicek, couldn’t find shooting room and passed to big Willis Reed at the free throw line.

Reed didn’t have any room either as he turned to face Russell. His forced shot was short and the ball went out of bounds off a Knick.

“We expected the ball to go to Frazier,” Russell said. “We decided to take Sam Jones out, put Havlicek on Frazier and sent in Satch Sanders to cover Bradley. Havlicek did a tremendous job on Frazier. It was a key defensive play.”

New York then fouled former Knick Emmette Bryant with six seconds left. In an unusual move, the Celtics called time out to set up more strategy, the confidence showed.

“I didn’t know what to think when we called time,” Bryant said. “Usually, the other team does it, hoping to upset the shooter. Then all I hear was ‘After he makes his two free throws ... after he makes his two free throws.’ You know, something like that can become contagious.”

Bryant then cased free throws to nail down the decision. The Celtics let the Knicks have a basket with two seconds left.

“I don’t like these kind of games,” said Russell, who led the Celtics with 21 points and 23 rebounds in a duel spiced by 14 ties. “They’re aggravating. They’re the kind of games that can give you an ulcer.”


Willis Reed led New York with 22 points—12 in the first quarter, and Frazier and Dave DeBusschere had 21 apiece.

New York won Game 5 112-104 to cut the series to 3-2. Reed led New York with 24 points and 11 rebounds, Frazier had 23 points, a team-high 12 rebounds and nine assists, DeBusschere had 20, and Dick Barnett had 20. Havlicek led Boston with a game-high 29 points, Russell had 25 points, Bailey Howell had 22, and Don Nelson had 18. Boston outshot New York 52.5 percent to 44.3 percent (Toledo Blade, Apr. 14, 1969), but New York forced Boston into 17 turnovers at the half—leading 60-46—and 25 for the game. “Aggressive defense,” Frazier said. “We knew we had to go out and win and we knew we had to do it with defense” (Toledo Blade, Apr. 14, 1969). “Both Celtic losses have come in the second game of back-to-back contests on consecutive days” (The Pittsburgh Press, Apr. 14, 1969). “In the backcourt, the Celtics were really hurt. Sam Jones, retiring at the end of the series, played 23 minutes and scored just three points. Em Bryant, a former Knick lost in expansion, played 34 minutes and scored only four. The Knicks had a 42-7 edge in the backcourt since Walt Frazier scored 23 and Dick Barnett added 19” (The Deseret News, Apr. 15, 1969). “Walt Frazier was the only one who’d admit what the rest of the players tried to ignore after the game, He said, ‘Some of the players are beginning to show their age,’ but then he seemed to realize he’d said the wrong thing and quickly added, ‘but they still show a lot of fire out there and can run a lot’” (The Pittsburgh Press, Apr. 14, 1969).

Boston won Game 6 106-105 to eliminate the Knicks and advance to the NBA Finals. Sam Jones scored 29 on 13-for-31 shooting (41.9%)—“after being held to an 11-point average in the first five games” (Ellensburg Daily Record, Apr. 21, 1969), John Havlicek had 28, Emmette Bryant 19, and Russell had 12 points, 21 rebounds and six blocked shots despite picking up his fifth foul with three minutes left in the fourth quarter (Gettysburg Times, April 19, 1969). “I’m glad that’s over,” said Russell. “The Knicks were tough, a real good team. We had to go all out” (The Sumter Daily Item, Apr. 19, 1969).

BOSTON (AP) — The Boston Celtics, backed by old pros Sam Jones, John Havlicek and unheralded Emmette Bryant, charged into the championship round of the National Basketball Association playoffs with a 106-105 victory over the New York Knicks Friday night to take the Eastern Division finals 4-2.

Jones, humiliated as he managed just 12 points in the fourth and fifth games of the best-of-7 series, regained his old scoring touch, connecting for 29 points in a brilliant shooting exhibition.

Havlicek, going the entire distance, his for 28 points, including four on two crucial baskets in the closing seconds as the Celtics staved off a furious New York finish.

Bryant, a former Knick who spent most of the regular season as a reserve Boston backcourt specialist, came through in the clutch, hitting for 19 points.

[…]

Player-coach Bill Russell, who started the Celtics to their basketball dynasty, again turned in a magnificent performance, scoring 12 points and grabbing 21 rebounds in 48 minutes of action.


The United Press International wrote, “Knick Coach Red Holzman had to virtually fight his way into the Celtic dressing room to congratulate the Celtics and said to Russell, ‘You were great’” (The Bulletin, Apr. 18, 1969).

(cont.)


ThaRegul8r wrote:NBA Finals – Boston Celtics (48-34) vs. Los Angeles Lakers (55-27)

Going into the Finals, the Celtics faced the Los Angeles Lakers. Jerry West averaged 25.9 points, 4.3 rebounds and 6.9 assists in 39.2 minutes per game and was All-Star Game MVP, Second Team All-NBA and Second Team All-Defense; Elgin Baylor averaged 24.8 points [4th], 10.6 rebounds and 5.4 assists [10th] in 40.3 minutes per game, was First Team All-NBA and finished fifth in the MVP voting; Wilt Chamberlain averaged 20.5 points on 58.3 percent shooting, 21.1 rebounds and 4.5 assists in a league-leading 45.3 minutes per game. Chamberlain was coming off back-to-back MVP seasons, and Baylor finished third in the MVP voting in 1967-68.

April 28, 1969
...and That Old Celtics Wheel Rolls Again
Boston goes into the finals against Los Angeles graying with age, with no backup man for Russell and its best shooter ready to retire, but that was also the sad situation before the New York series

Frank Deford

They are always around at playoff time, the former Celtics, the alumni—back to visit. It seems almost the way it is when Tex Ritter calls the honor roll of oldtimers in Hillbilly Heaven, only with the Celtics, of course, this is invariably a happy time. After all the who-shot-John that goes on from October to March, the Celtics just go out and win the playoffs. So the old players come in and joke with Red Auerbach, the headmaster emeritus, and shake the few remaining familiar hands on the team. Every year, though, each alumnus appears as a somewhat hazier image—like hearing an old song that you know was very important to you at one time but now you can't remember precisely why. There are so many old Celtics who figured in so many old championships.

Bill Russell sits at his locker and tries to find new ways to explain the Celtics, because they have just beaten the New York Knicks for their 12th Eastern playoff title in 13 years. Russell goes along with the ritual, but the odd thing is that he best described what was to become the Celtic experience before he ever got to Boston. He was still at the University of San Francisco, and K.C. Jones had been lost to the team for the NCAA tournament. Someone asked what effect this would have on the team. "You change the spokes," Russell said, "but the wheel keeps rolling."

And that is the way it is. Some Celtics play alongside Russell, some sit on the bench, some retire and come back to shake hands. The spokes change. Each supporting star leaves, as Sam Jones will now and the soothsayers forecast doom. The wheel keeps rolling.

Win the playoffs? The Celtics are a fourth-place team that did not even play .500 ball the whole last half of the season. The Celtic regulars average over 31 years of age. That is about three years older than the world champion Detroit Tigers last year, six years older than the New York Jets. Of course, the Celtics will be younger next season since Sam, who is almost 36 and the oldest player in the league, will assume his duties as athletic director at Federal City College in Washington.

"Finis. End. Through. This is it," Sam says. Certainly he looks it. In a narrow-lapel, three-piece herringbone he moves through the mod Age of Aquarius like some fine old period piece. For diversion during the playoffs he has been studying Tommy Armour's golf tips for the middle-aged. His oldest of five children is Aubre, 11, who prefers hockey to basketball and roots for the Philadelphia 76ers. Never trust any team over 30.

Sam—the surname is seldom used except in box scores—has played old this year, too. He was injured, missed 12 games and did not come back fast enough to please Russell. He has had some good games in the playoffs, but he began to run down. The Celtics won the fourth game over the Knicks despite Sam—he shot 4 for 18—and then he was 1 for 8 when New York won to cut the Boston series lead to 3-2.

The Knicks had been putting pressure on the corners, so Russell decided that it was time his guards exploited the opening in the middle. Walt Frazier, just voted the best defensive player in the league, had pulled a groin muscle in the last seconds of the fifth game, and his lameness would make New York even more vulnerable. "I put myself into a higher pivot," Russell explained. "We would start our play like before, as if we were going to the corners, then turn them around and head things back to the middle, where the guards could use me as a pick."

Wasn't this a gamble—to have the offense depend on an old man who was shooting five for 26? Russell was pained. "That is two games," he said. "You know what Sam can do. I had to have him come out shooting."

Sam, in his stoical way, was ready. He has prospered in the league for so long, many think, in large measure because his attitude insulates him. He relaxes, away from the court, neither bugged by the last game nor anxious for the next one. "You get out there," he says, "and sometimes you have it, passing, shooting—sometimes you don't. It's all split seconds, and I just don't worry about it."

So Sam came out shooting—he was to put up 31 shots—and got free off Russell at the top of the key for the game's first basket. Frazier, pushing one hand against his sore muscle to try to still the pain, dogged Jones manfully, but Sam hit six baskets in the first half and Russell decided to start him in the third quarter, too, which he has seldom done lately. Sam broke it open with five baskets that put the Celtics 10 up. Moreover, the Knicks often double-teamed him, and this left Emmette Bryant wide open for 19 points. Sam had 29.

He was on the bench, though, when John Havlicek made the shot that won the series. New York had come back to two behind, and the teams traded baskets to 101-99. With 45 seconds left, Havlicek got the ball with only eight remaining on the 24-second clock. He cut left at the top of the key, but the Knicks were on him and no one was open.

Tom Sanders had been in the same predicament a minute before and had taken a desperation jumper that had gone in. Now Havlicek was obliged to try another. He was thinking that at least the Celtics might get the rebound. Willis Reed, under the basket, could see that Havlicek would have to take a bad shot, and when Havlicek went up at 0:40 Russell, standing by Reed, thought John was forced to jump sideways as he shot. The ball flew, just clearing the two hands in his face, and suddenly Havlicek was astonished to note that he actually felt it was on target. The ball hit the left side of the rim and banged back and forth, dropping in like a pinball. On the bench, Larry Siegfried turned to Sam. "Baby," he said. "I can't believe it."

"That's the ones that win ball games," Sam said.

The game, first ever on prime-time national TV, was followed by the Sunday contest in Los Angeles, which gave the West title to the Lakers, 4-1 over Atlanta. Thus the confrontation in the final that begins this week offers the ultimate in beat-Boston possibilities. Through the years the perennial Celtic playoff foes have been, first, Wilt Chamberlain teams (1-6 against Boston) and then the Lakers (0-6). Boston has usually handled them like taking a shot of whiskey and following it with a beer chaser. The mixture, in one gulp, may be somewhat tougher to manage.

Tactics start in the middle, as usual, where Russell must contain Wilt, who is playing extremely well. Last year in this endeavor Russell had help in the person of Wayne Embry (now commissioner of recreation for the city of Boston). He would relieve Bill for long stretches and lean on Wilt. This wore Chamberlain down and also made him mad as hell. Further, it convinced everyone that Russell could no longer go 48 minutes in the playoffs. So much for that notion. He went the route five times against Willis Reed, and worked even harder than usual on offense, since he found the middle open. Anyway, with Embry gone he will have to go all the way against Wilt, too. Bad News Barnes, the backup man, is so deep in Russell's doghouse that he may soon be waived to the American Kennel Club.

Elgin Baylor has not adjusted well to playing with Wilt and had only one good game, the last one, in the series with Atlanta. Any edge up front should go to the team whose reserve forward comes in with a hot hand—Celtic Don Nelson, an ex-Laker, or Laker Mel Counts, an ex-Celtic.
Jerry West gives the Lakers the better backcourt, even if the other L.A. guards do have a hard time getting the ball upcourt. West should have an easier time moving against the Boston man-to-man press than he did against Atlanta's double-teaming zone. Certainly if Sam wants to go out a winner he must offset West with some good-shooting games.

"Hey, you know what someone said?" Sam asked Russell. "They said the team wanted to win this year especially for me." Sam laughed. "I told them there was a certain amount of money involved, too."
Russell roared and struck a delicate pose. "What do they think we are now?" he said, waving limply. "Win thith one for Tham. Oh." They both laughed so loud that it was difficult to hear the sound of the wheel rolling.


The Lakers were 7-5 favorites to win the title. "Boston finished fourth in the East and we finished first in the West, and by all logic Boston shouldn't be in the finals," Chamberlain wrote. The Lakers won four of their six games against Boston in the regular season.

Los Angeles won Game 1 in LA 120-118 behind Jerry West's career playoff high of 53 points (20-41 FG, 11-13 FT) and 10 assists. “Jerry West was just great,” said John Havlicek. “With his 10 assists, that gives him 73 points” (Beaver Country Times, Apr. 24, 1969). “I suppose it’s one of the greatest games I’ve ever played,” said West. “However, there have been games when I’ve scored a lot fewer points and still felt I helped the team more with assists and playing defense” (The Rock Hill Herald, Apr. 17, 1969). Elgin Baylor had 24. John Havlicek led Boston with 37, Sam Jones had 21, and “Bill Russell of the Celtics won his personal battle with longtime rival Wilt Chamberlain, pulling down 27 rebounds and scoring 16 points to 22 and 15 for Chamberlain.”

LA won Game 2 118-112 to take a 2-0 lead. “Boston tried guarding West with three different men […] but failed to cork the flow. Russell had better luck with foe Wilt Chamberlain. The towering centers fought each other to a standoff. Russell had the statistical edge, 21-19 in rebounds and 9-4 in scoring” (The Palm Beach Post, Apr. 25, 1969).

Boston won Game 3 111-105, John Havlicek leading Boston with 34 points, and Larry Siegfried coming off the bench to score 28 points on 10-for-16 shooting (62.5%) from the floor and 8 of 9 free throws after averaging 5.5 points in the two losses in LA. “Siegfried was the difference,” said Laker coach Bill van Breda Kolff. Player-coach Russell said, “He gave us a big game offensively and defensively—and don’t forget he was hurting too.” Siegfried was hampered by a hamstring pull and hip injury “and had relinquished his starting guard to Emmette Bryant” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 28, 1969). “He hasn’t played very much,” West said of Siegfried, “so when he comes up with a ball game like that, it really hurts.” In the fourth quarter, Havlicek scored 13 and Siegfried 11. “Jerry West, who averaged 47 in the first two Laker victories in Los Angeles, again led the Western Division champions, but was held to 24 in the series opener in Boston before a crowd of 14,037 at Boston” (St. Petersburg Times, Apr. 28, 1969). Russell had 11 points and 18 rebounds, Chamberlain 16 points and 26 rebounds.

Boston won Game 4 to tie the series at 2-2. The Lakers led 88-87 with 15 seconds left, and Emmette Bryant stole the inbounds pass and passed to Jones, who missed the shot. Boston got the ball out of bounds with seven seconds left, and set up Jones for the last play. Jones stumbled and took an off-balance 15-footer, and the ball rolled around the rim and dropped through to give the Celtics a 89-88 win. “That’s the play we called,” Russell said. “He wasn’t supposed to stumble though. That was his own innovation.” Jones said, “I tried to get it high and get backspin. That way if I missed, I knew Russell had a chance for the rebound.” The only problem was that Russell had benched himself to put his best free throw shooters on the floor in case the Lakers fouled. John Havlicek led Boston with 21, Larry Siegfried had 20, and Sam Jones and Bailey Howell had 16. Russell had six points and 29 rebounds to Chamberlain’s eight points and 31 rebounds. Boston shot 32 percent, and the Lakers 39 percent. West had a game-high 40 points in the loss, and Keith Erickson was the only other Laker in double figures with 16.

As expected, the two giants, player-coach Bill Russell of Boston and Wilt Chamberlain, have nullified each other. Statistics for four games show Chamberlain with a slight edge. The 7-foot-2 veteran has 43 points and 99 rebounds to 42 points and 95 rebounds for his 35-year-old arch rival.

The big men as far as scoring is concerned have been West, the talented 6-foot-3 guard, and the Celtics John Havlicek, the tireless forward-guard. West is averaging 39.5 points in the four encounters including a career playoff high of 53 points while Havlicek has a 33.7 averaged with 43 points in one game for a personal playoff best.


The Lakers won Game 5 117-104 in LA to take a 3-2 series lead. West had 39 points, and Chamberlain had 13 points and 31 rebounds, out-playing Russell, who had seven points and 13 rebounds. West suffered a hamstring pull in his left leg.

The Celtics won Game 6 in Boston 99-90 to tie the series at 3-3. Don Nelson led Boston with 25, Havlicek scored 19, and Emmette Bryant 18. West and Baylor had a game-high 26 points. “Player-Coach Bill Russell of the Celtics again outplayed Wilt Chamberlain, with 9 points and 19 rebounds to Chamberlain’s 8 points and 18 rebounds” (The Milwaukee Journal, May 2, 1969). Robert Cherry wrote,

Los Angeles was up three games to two, and the main question for Game 6 was whether West would play and, if so, how well. With a heavily bandaged left thigh, he gutted out 26 points. Although Wilt had 18 rebounds (1 less than Russell), his eight points were not nearly enough to make up for West’s diminished offensive production. Baylor, after a horrible first half, ended up with 26 points. Wilt had one field goal on five shots and was 6 for 10 from the foul line—nothing to brag about. Would that Wilt had risen to greatness by scoring say, 30 points (an average night for him not that many seasons before). Coming up big is what the game’s highest-paid player, the game’s all-time leading scorer, and the game’s self-described greatest player would be expected to do. But Wilt failed and Boston won, 99–90.


The Celtics held the Lakers to three baskets in the second quarter, taking a 55-39 lead at the half.

The Celtics won Game 7 108-106 in LA before a Forum-record crowd of 17,568 to win their eleventh NBA championship. John Havlicek led Boston with 26 points on 11-for-19 shooting (57.9%), nine rebounds and five assists in the full 48 minutes, Sam Jones had 24 points on 10-for-16 shooting (62.5%) with seven rebounds before fouling out with 7:05 remaining (St. Petersburg Times, May 6, 1969) with 32 minutes played, Emmette Bryant had 20 points, five rebounds and three assists, Don Nelson had 16 points and six rebounds, and Bill Russell grabbed a team-high 21 rebounds, scored six points and had a team-high six assists in 48 minutes. LA trailed 59-56 at the half. Boston led 91-76 going into the fourth quarter. Jerry West had 42 points (14-29 FG), 13 rebounds and 12 assists in 48 minutes. West scored 14 points in five minutes to cut the lead to 103-100. Elgin Baylor had 20 points, 15 rebounds and seven assists, and Wilt Chamberlain' had 18 points and 27 rebounds.

“This is my most frustrating loss,” said Baylor (The Deseret News, May 6, 1969).

Jerry West won the first NBA Finals Most Valuable Player award, averaging 37.9 points. “The award should have gone to a player on the winning team,” said West. Associated Press sportswriter Bob Myers wrote, “The consensus: Havlicek” (Gettysburg Times, May 5, 1969).

INGLEWOOD, CALIF. (UPI) — Ageless Bill Russell gave no hint of when he would call it quits after leading the Boston Celtics to their 11th NBA title Monday night.

“I have four years left to go on my contract,” he said. “I wish people would stop asking me if I was going to retire.”

The 35-year-old defensive genius was relaxed and smiling after his club defeated the Los Angeles Lakers 108-106 in the final game of the championship series.

“What makes the Celtics great?” he asked no one in particular. “I could say me. . . but I won’t.”

Russell took a crack at Los Angeles’ talkative center, Wilt Chamberlain.

“I’ve been reading that the big center of the Los Angeles team said that we’ve been lucky. Now you can see that it just isn’t so.”

The bearded Boston center then said:

“This has to be one of my greatest thrills. It’s always tough to come back but we did. We’re not a one or two-man team. Everyone is good.

“Winning this isn’t unexpected. I never thought of losing. And this wasn’t the toughest playoff series I’ve ever been in. I’ve been in a lot of these games and they’ve all been exciting.”

Russell was asked about the Lakers’ comeback.

“We didn’t lose our poise. We just missed our shots. I didn’t think we’d be safe with a 17-point lead. The only time you’re safe with that kind of a lead is with 30 seconds to go.”

Russell paid tribute to the Lakers’ Jerry West and said he was “one of the greatest players ever . . . a world champion.”

John Havlicek, the Celtics’ leading scorer in the seven-game series, said, “This is the toughest series I’ve ever been in. And I savor this win above all the others. Russ should be given all the credit. We didn’t have a strong bench. But he knew just when to substitute. West’s injury was unfortunate for them.”

Sam Jones, who played his final game as a pro, looked like all the pressure in the world had been taken off his back. “I don’t think I made a bad shot all night,” he said in reference to his 10-for-16 night from the field. “I went out and practiced hard before the game, and when it started I just began finding the range.”

Chamberlain, who twisted his knee midway through the last quarter, was fuming in the Lakers’ dressing room and directed his ire at Laker coach Bill van Breda Kolff.

“I asked the coach five time to put me back in the game, but he didn’t,” Wilt said. “I felt I could have gotten the ball. But someone has to lose and it was us.”

Then he said: “I don’t really know how I feel at this point. I may never get into this position again. I still have two years on my contract.”


Los Angeles Times writer Charles Maher wrote,

Now that the seventh and perhaps pivotal game of the NBA Finals is in the can, it may be appropriate to pause and reflect for a while. Say five months.

Analysis of whatever technical errors the Lakers may have committed will be left to keener basketball minds. In this period of re-examination, I’d just like to raise one point, one I think can properly be raised by even a casual spectator.

The point is that the past season suggests, if it does not actually prove, that Wilt Chamberlain is not worth $250,000 a year. And if that’s what he’s really getting, his teammates are being insulted.

This is not the intemperate response of an embittered fan. A good friend of mine is connected with the Lakers, but I have had no real emotional attachment to the team, and never have had.

At any rate, the Lakers, with Chamberlain, lost the seventh playoff game by two points — on the Lakers’ floor. So they have come no closer with Wilt than they did without him.

But the intent here is not to charge Chamberlain with unsatisfactory performance. To be sure, there are some things he can’t do. His field goal average, on shots taken from more than a few feet from the hoop, is rotten. His free throw average, on the other hand, is even worse. Nor can he move with the ball the way Bill Russell can.

But you can’t fault a man for not doing things he is physically incapable of doing. Norm Van Brocklin was hardly a great scrambler. But you didn’t rap him for that. The man just couldn’t run. Chamberlain, from any distance, just can’t shoot.

But some say there are things Wilt is capable of doing that he does not do. They say he could play more evenly. They say he loafs.

Since I know nothing of the man’s exhaustion threshold and have not been given access to his mind, I have no business commenting on that.

Neither am I qualified to judge the effect of the animosity between Chamberlain and his coach, nor to say which party is more at fault.

But I can question Chamberlain’s salary. The man has scored 27,000 points and is certainly a considerable force on defense. But is he worth 2½ times as much as Jerry West? Is he worth 2½ times as much as Elgin Baylor (even when Baylor is in a slump)? The answer, of course, is hardly.

Viewed purely as a business investment, Wilt’s $250,000 salary may be defensible. Maybe the Lakers sold enough tickets this season to get their money back.

Further, their situation after eight seasons in Los Angeles was this: They had repeatedly fallen short, sometimes just short, of winning the NBA title. The reason, in the judgment of many, was that they lacked just one thing, a big man. Finally, they were given an opportunity to get him. The price was perhaps much higher than it should have been, but if this was the one piece without which the machine would not run right, should money be any object?

The trouble is there is another dimension to Chamberlain’s salary. When you announce you are giving a man $250,000 a year (or do not deny published reports that that’s what he’s getting), you are telling your fans, in effect, that you have acquired a super force. The magnitude of the sum almost suggests here is a man against whom there can be no defense.

But it can be seen now by every Laker fan that, while Chamberlain may be a great player, he is not the ultimate weapon. The same thing can be seen by his teammates. For the record, they may tell you, “more power to the guy. He’s entitled to anything he can get.” Privately, however, they must deeply resent the fact that Chamberlain is being paid five to 10 times as much as a lot of players he is not five to 10 times greater than. It would be irrational to believe this resentment has not adversely affected the team.

But as the other Lakers would say for publication, Chamberlain cannot be blamed for consenting to sign a $250,000 contract.

But if you can’t knock Chamberlain for taking the money, you can question the wisdom of the people who agreed to give it to him.


Now consider that the Celtics were the oldest team in the league. No one pegged them to win. Russell went down with an injury and missed five games, and the Celtics promptly when on a five-game losing streak, which was their longest losing streak in almost 20 years. Russell returns, and they win. For those who value home court advantage, the Celtics didn't have HCA for any round of the playoffs. Consider the impact Russell had in the Celtics beating teams they weren't supposed to beat. Consider the fact that he was coaching in addition to playing 46.1 minutes per game. This might just be the most impressive accomplishment of Russell's career. Now after reading all this and taking this into account, at least you'll be informed enough to make your decision for this season.
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Entering game 7 as heavy underdogs (so much so the Laker's owners ordered thousands of balloons in anticipation of an LA title), three quarters in, facing last thread's #1, #5, and #7, the Celtics were en route to blowing the favorites out. Then Russell picked up his 5th foul limiting how aggressively he coyld defend. Here's what followed:
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Russell gets rightly credited for his defense. What he probably doesn't get enough credit for is being the greatest floor-general ever. Perhaps that's why the perception does not line-up with the results for so many, much like it doesn't when people look at Lebron's 31 aged season (It's the one featuring a 3-1 comeback).

Regardless of perceptions, the Celtics won again, this time taking out the 1st, 3rd. and 5 best teams per SRS with teams 1 and 2 featuring cores that would combine for 3 titles and contest next year's championship over 7 games (it can reasonably be argued the iteration Boston faced was stronger). Their finals opponent effectively a merger between last year's 2nd and 3rd best team.

It was arguably the most difficult gauntlet any champion has faced. But it wasn't enough. Russell was just too good.

2. Nate Thurmond

Yet another year of seemingly monster impact only really answered with "defense alone is enough, in the 60's....how?". Again undermanned facing Wilt, and again playing him to 6 while holding his scoring way down. Prior to their lead scorer dropping out, Nate's Warriors were actually beating a team with Wilt, West, and Baylor. In a relative down year at the top, that seems enough for #2 for me.

3. Oscar Robertson

Screwed over by an unusually difficult conference again. Nonetheless, another year as the league's best offensive player on the league's best offense carrying a terrible team to mediocrity.

4. Willis Reed

The best player on the league's best regular-season team and third best playoff team. Was conflicted between him and West but in the era of defense, I should probably go towards the defensive anchor. 2nd in MVP voting this year, First the next, and centerpiece for a contender and then a champion in successive seasons.

5. Jerry West

A great scoring performance in the finals against the best defense and the best team. Unfortunately, this is the 60's. It's defense really that wins championships, a norm reflected in the Lakers being on-pace to lose to Nate Thurmond before an unfortunate injury, and then their actual loss in the finals to Russell again.
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL

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