[Wojnarowski]: Murray Extends In Denver (4/$208)

[zimpy27]

Never been an all-star. Is he even a top ten point guard? Under no scenario is this a "boom". If he stays healthy, it's still too generous. And obviously there's a good chance he won't be.

I love it for Murray. I think the Nuggets overpaid.

He's a top 5 PG in the league in terms of playoff performance

Has the same career playoff PER as Lillard, Kyrie, Mitchell. Only guys really ahead are Luka, Curry, Brunson. But PER is offense leaning and a Murray is more valuable on defense than these other names.

He is far worse in RS though and didn't get paid this contract for RS.

The minute requirement to qualify for career PER rankings may be excluding some guys. It requires 1500 minutes to qualify, so guys like Haliburton don’t qualify yet (only 15 gp and 1500 minutes) but outrank him too (22.0 PER).

Even then, it’s purely a past ranking with no guarantee of the future. I mean, I get why they gave him the contract, but sheesh, I don’t know if I like it. They could extend him at any point this season, so I don’t know if I get why they locked this in now?

Yes you're right, some excluded by minutes.

I also am not a fan of max deals being given before season starts unless you plan on giving him that deal even on a season ending injury next offseason.

I think this contract gets more scrutiny because of MPJ deal. Without MPJ deal you figure you can afford the risk.

[Mavrelous]

Yikes...
He did everything possible to make them doubt maxing him in the Wolves series, and then had a horrific Olympics, never had a max worthy RS, had 2 max worth PO runs in 8 years.
Maxed Murray twice and MPJ, gave a non NBA player 32/4 contract, while penny pinching KCP and scrapping value from the bottom of the draft...

[zimpy27]

Yikes...
He did everything possible to make them doubt maxing him in the Wolves series, and then had a horrific Olympics, never had a max worthy RS, had 2 max worth PO runs in 8 years.
Maxed Murray twice and MPJ, gave a non NBA player 32/4 contract, while penny pinching KCP and scrapping value from the bottom of the draft...

MPJ is a rough contract but yeah their cap planning has been poor. Not sure what they do but they did have to keep Murray

[Mavrelous]

Yikes...
He did everything possible to make them doubt maxing him in the Wolves series, and then had a horrific Olympics, never had a max worthy RS, had 2 max worth PO runs in 8 years.
Maxed Murray twice and MPJ, gave a non NBA player 32/4 contract, while penny pinching KCP and scrapping value from the bottom of the draft...

MPJ is a rough contract but yeah their cap planning has been poor. Not sure what they do but they did have to keep Murray

They didn't have to extend him.
On his max contract, Murray basically missed 2 seasons, played amazing one, absolutely max talent, and played poorly in PO series in the 4th year which resulted in them losing, you can demand he proves himself in his 5th max year, before handing him another 4...
Just like they didn't have to extend MPJ and didn't have to extend Naji...

[zimpy27]

Yikes...
He did everything possible to make them doubt maxing him in the Wolves series, and then had a horrific Olympics, never had a max worthy RS, had 2 max worth PO runs in 8 years.
Maxed Murray twice and MPJ, gave a non NBA player 32/4 contract, while penny pinching KCP and scrapping value from the bottom of the draft...

MPJ is a rough contract but yeah their cap planning has been poor. Not sure what they do but they did have to keep Murray

They didn't have to extend him.
On his max contract, Murray basically missed 2 seasons, played amazing one, absolutely max talent, and played poorly in PO series in the 4th year which resulted in them losing, you can demand he proves himself in his 5th max year, before handing him another 4...
Just like they didn't have to extend MPJ and didn't have to extend Naji...

Yeah but both MPJ and Nnaji were worse signings is all I'm saying. This one makes sense considering he is a great fit with Jokic.

[Mavrelous]

MPJ is a rough contract but yeah their cap planning has been poor. Not sure what they do but they did have to keep Murray

They didn't have to extend him.
On his max contract, Murray basically missed 2 seasons, played amazing one, absolutely max talent, and played poorly in PO series in the 4th year which resulted in them losing, you can demand he proves himself in his 5th max year, before handing him another 4...
Just like they didn't have to extend MPJ and didn't have to extend Naji...

Yeah but both MPJ and Nnaji were worse signings is all I'm saying. This one makes sense considering he is a great fit with Jokic.

Agreed, healthy and in shape Murray is worth a max to Denver

[TunaFish]

They extend him while still below the 2nd apron. This is a key that everyone seems to miss.

Teams currently over the 2nd apron have a two year window. The Nuggets stay under the apron but will start the two year window after this season.

Explained here:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/how-nbas-new-restrictive-cba-is-shaping-the-league-five-salary-cap-lessons-we-learned-this-summer/

[jbk1234]

Yikes...
He did everything possible to make them doubt maxing him in the Wolves series, and then had a horrific Olympics, never had a max worthy RS, had 2 max worth PO runs in 8 years.
Maxed Murray twice and MPJ, gave a non NBA player 32/4 contract, while penny pinching KCP and scrapping value from the bottom of the draft...

MPJ is a rough contract but yeah their cap planning has been poor. Not sure what they do but they did have to keep Murray

They didn't have to extend him.
On his max contract, Murray basically missed 2 seasons, played amazing one, absolutely max talent, and played poorly in PO series in the 4th year which resulted in them losing, you can demand he proves himself in his 5th max year, before handing him another 4...
Just like they didn't have to extend MPJ and didn't have to extend Naji...

So much this. If he wants the team to make that commitment before the season starts, and before the Nuggets have to make that decision, then I'd expect some consideration back in terms of a real discount.

I mean what did the Nuggets get here besides a whole lot of risk they didn't have to assume? If the answer is Murray's happiness, that's not worth $200+M.

[brackdan70]

He is right in that zone, where you kind of have to max him if you want to keep him, but maybe he is not quite worth it. Tricky for front offices for sure.
Like with most of these, in 2 years it won’t look that bad though, assuming he stays at this level of play.

[BelgradeNugget]

They extend him while still below the 2nd apron. This is a key that everyone seems to miss.

Teams currently over the 2nd apron have a two year window. The Nuggets stay under the apron but will start the two year window after this season.

Explained here:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/how-nbas-new-restrictive-cba-is-shaping-the-league-five-salary-cap-lessons-we-learned-this-summer/

This is the answer to all questions regarding Nuggets offseason. Problem with 2nd apron is when you stay there for 3 years. Nuggets decided resigning KCP is not worth entering 2nd apron. They will be in the second apron in 25/26, and after they resign AG in 26/27. After that MPJ's contract expires so they will have flexiblity to decided what to do with MPJ's contract, is he worth keeping and on what money, or they will try to do some other thing to get under 2nd apron then.

Just one reminder. Nnaji's contract is bad, but even if they didn't have him KCP's contract would put them over 2nd apron this season, which they didn't want to do.

[nate33]

Never been an all-star. Is he even a top ten point guard? Under no scenario is this a "boom". If he stays healthy, it's still too generous. And obviously there's a good chance he won't be.

I love it for Murray. I think the Nuggets overpaid.

He's a top 5 PG in the league in terms of playoff performance

Has the same career playoff PER as Lillard, Kyrie, Mitchell. Only guys really ahead are Luka, Curry, Brunson. But PER is offense leaning and a Murray is more valuable on defense than these other names.

He is far worse in RS though and didn't get paid this contract for RS.

So we're going to pick one stat, playoffs only, and still skew it toward him because it doesn't cover his strengths?

I'd have him below

SGA
Luka
Brunson
Hali
Steph
Kyrie
Trae
Dame
Mitchell (is he a point?)

Those guys are all offensive engines. Murry isn't, at least not to that extent. And the elephant in the room is his health. I'd like to see his contract a little more (not totally) like Zion's.

I have Murray ahead of Trae and Dame because of their team-wrecking horrific defense. I agree with the rest though. SGA, Luka, Brunson, Hali, Steph, Kyrie and Mitchell are better. Of course, all but Brunson are max contract guys too, so it's hard to bash Denver too much for the signing.

I do think they could have gotten him to take a little less money, though. Who else would have stepped up and offered him a max contract?

[Jadoogar]

If healthy, this is a fair contract given his playoff track record. But if he's the guy that played for team Canada this summer, this deal is going sink the Nuggets.
They already have a new unmovable deal in MPJ, hopefully Murray doesn't go that route. Plus Gordon's new deal is coming up soon.

[gswhoops]

He's a top 5 PG in the league in terms of playoff performance

Has the same career playoff PER as Lillard, Kyrie, Mitchell. Only guys really ahead are Luka, Curry, Brunson. But PER is offense leaning and a Murray is more valuable on defense than these other names.

He is far worse in RS though and didn't get paid this contract for RS.

So we're going to pick one stat, playoffs only, and still skew it toward him because it doesn't cover his strengths?

I'd have him below

SGA
Luka
Brunson
Hali
Steph
Kyrie
Trae
Dame
Mitchell (is he a point?)

Those guys are all offensive engines. Murry isn't, at least not to that extent. And the elephant in the room is his health. I'd like to see his contract a little more (not totally) like Zion's.

I have Murray ahead of Trae and Dame because of their team-wrecking horrific defense. I agree with the rest though. SGA, Luka, Brunson, Hali, Steph, Kyrie and Mitchell are better. Of course, all but Brunson are max contract guys too, so it's hard to bash Denver too much for the signing.

I do think they could have gotten him to take a little less money, though. Who else would have stepped up and offered him a max contract?

Brunson definitely could have gotten a max too if he wanted it.

I mean maybe they could have gotten Murray for a little less than the max? But at a certain point penny-pinching with your top guys isn't worth it.

[kobe_vs_jordan]

Murray requests a trade imo if the nuggets tried to wait to give the max. Some team out there would be willing to gamble on his health.

[shrink]

Murray requests a trade imo if the nuggets tried to wait to give the max. Some team out there would be willing to gamble on his health.

For me, it would be a gamble on his health and a gamble on his play. How much of Murray is Murray, and how much of Murray is the luxury of playing next to Jokic? Other teams don’t want to pay for the latter, even if they are willing to accept he health/financial risks. Finally, even his recent playoffs and Olympics drive further questions on his play.

I understand why DEN probably felt like they had to do this, but I’ve been disappointed in their front office/ownership for a number of years (which I know is an odd thing to say about a team that won a championship). The rich Walmart heir ownership has constantly been cheap, demanding for years that the team stay under the lux, and they have some of the most egregious history of selling picks. And while I think Tim Connelly did an excellent job finding talent in the draft, I always felt that he was too quick to overpay his guys, particularly MPJ. While ownership finally went into the lux after winning a ring, the loss of critical players like Bruce Brown and KCP seemed to be financial decisions by ownership, and were hastened by overpaying other players. I am curious whether they bite the bullet and pay Aaron Gordon, who is even more critical?

[Godaddycurse]

, the loss of critical players like Bruce Brown and KCP seemed to be financial decisions by ownership, and were hastened by overpaying other players. I am curious whether they bite the bullet and pay Aaron Gordon, who is even more critical?

they were limited by how much they could pay bruce brown; not that i think they would have matched his contract even if they could legally offer it.