Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

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Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Tue Sep 10, 2024 6:54 pm

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1969-70.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 12:00pm PST on Friday, September 13th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#2 » by Djoker » Tue Sep 10, 2024 8:27 pm

B-Ref only has defensive stats starting from the 1970-71 season which is going to be next but I came across the defensive numbers for this season in a Sixers Guide:

Image

It lets us calculate TS% allowed and get scoring efficiency relative to opponent defense. I'll post the Kareem numbers I calculated a bit later. Also I see rookie Kareem as #1 here. It might be a controversial opinion but he looks so darn dominant and almost everyone else has major cracks in their case. West is probably the best challenger.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#3 » by AEnigma » Tue Sep 10, 2024 8:51 pm

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Jerry West
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


Oscar has his worst season to date and plays less than West, finally opening up an opportunity for West to lead this award outright. Extremely competitive group behind him, with Oscar, Kareem, Cunningham, Frazier, Hawkins, and Hudson all mounting valid cases, and Bing and Wilkens worth mentioning too.

Ultimately I cannot see anyone on this list matching even a relative down-year Oscar season on offence specifically, and then I think Kareem elevating the Bucks from a below average offence to a top two offence is too large a signal to overlook. Their selections here also presage their team-up the following year, when they generate a record-high relative offensive rating which will not be met/exceeded until the 1987 Lakers.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Elvin Hayes
2. Willis Reed
3. Wes Unseld


Awkward year with Russell gone, Wilt and Thurmond injured, Hayes irrelevant, and the Knicks/Bullets dividing front-court responsibilities. Mel’s Pacers and Kareem’s Bucks are underwhelming on that end as well, and Paul Silas’s Suns are outright awful. My initial thought here was to reward the power forwards rather than the centres; however, upon further reflection, Reed and Unseld play enough extra minutes that any advantage for DeBusschere and Gus is likely offset. And then Hayes is a minute outlier beyond that. In the spirit of Wilt and Russell, who both rarely ever left the court, that seems like a suitable tiebreaker.

Player of the Year

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Jerry West
3. Willis Reed
4. Walt Frazier
5. Billy Cunningham


I have Kareem #1 too. Little odd in the sense that it is one of the “worst” years of his true prime (1970-80, with a nice extended prime 1981-86), but I think West (and Reed/Frazier) needed a lot more help to compete for a title; put Kareem on the Suns this year, and who knows, maybe he manages a rookie title of his own.
TrueLAfan wrote:I know this is going to sound horrible, but Lew Alcindor had announced he was Muslim in late 1968, aligned himself with Elijah Muhammed in 1969...and probably didn't do as well in MVP/All-NBA voting as he should have in 1969-70. (Compare how Wes Unseld—a quiet, Christian black man—did in MVP voting in 1969 to Kareem in 1970. Hmmm.) I also think this played a part in Reed outpointing Frazier in MVP voting. I don't think there was a huge group of voters who were racist in the NBA, and it's not that Willis Reed was anything other than a terrific ballplayer. But the undercurrents were there and expressed, if subtly, and I do think there was a large enough minority to make for some bad voting from the late 60s into the early 1970s.
drza wrote:Honestly, just from what I've seen in this thread, it seems to me that Alcindor was pretty solidly better than West even as a rookie. In the regular season their stats were relatively close, but when in doubt doesn't a big usually have a bigger non-statistical impact on a game than a wing? I recognize that West was a good perimeter defender, but big men defenders just have a bigger effect than wing defenders and Alcindor (even then) was recognized as an excellent defensive big that dominated the glass. Offensive impact is much better covered by the box score stats than individual defense, and since bigs tend to have a bigger defensive impact their advantages generally may not show up as clearly. I expect that this is a theme that will soon get a lot of run in the Russell years.

Also, I don't buy the intangible edge of veteran over rookie in this comparison, again, because Kareem's on-court impact was obvious and undeniable. He led the biggest turnaround in NBA history, taking a team from the basement to the penthouse. Then, he stepped up even further in the postseason. I would bow to a strong, supported argument from the old-heads that clearly demonstrates areas that Kareem just didn't have the impact that his numbers and the team's turnaround suggests. But so far I haven't seen that in this thread. I've seen several people allude to the fact that Kareem was a rookie, and just seemingly make the logic leap that therefore he couldn't have that huge of an impact. But so far I haven't seen anything convincing to corroborate that. I've also seen it said that rookie Kareem wasn't as good as prime Kareem... OK. I can buy that. The thing is, that isn't the standard. He doesn't have to be better than prime Kareem, he only has to be better than everyone else in 1970. And so far, I haven't seen anything to suggest that he wasn't.

Even if it we were just voting on the regular season I'd have Alcindor edging out West. But in the postseason, it seems like Alcindor blew West out of the water. Even if West was injured for a part of the Finals, his postseason just doesn't even look comparable to Alcindor's. In fact, Alcindor's postseason was up several notches even from West's regular season. Kareem took a team that was last place in the conference the previous year to the 2nd best record in the league, the (then) biggest turnaround in NBA history, and then carried that team to the Conference Finals where they lost to the only other team in the league with a better record then them. Kareem played 10 postseason games against 2 different teams, so it's not like his numbers were inflated from playing in 2 or 3 postseason games. After averaging 29 and 15 on 52% FG in the regular season, he averaged 36 and 16 on 58% FG over 5 games against the Sixers, then 34 and 18 on 55% FG against the Knicks. That postseason performance looks consistent against both teams, and both were a step up from what he did in the regular season.

Again, unless there is film showing that the Knicks completely ignored Kareem, even a "let him get his" strategy would suggest that Reed was still on Kareem just maybe without as much help as he might normally get (and again, as far as I know even this is speculation). Perhaps something like the '95 Spurs attempted with Robinson getting Hakeem primarily 1-on-1. The thing is, just like in '95, the Muslim center absolutely UNLOADED on the reigning MVP 1-on-1. Just because the Knicks had a strong enough team to win anyway while the Spurs didn't, I don't see how the individual performance by Kareem against Reed isn't similarly impressive as what Hakeem did to Robinson.

West had a fine case. I think the lift he provided to the Lakers absent Wilt is still substantially less than what Kareem provided to the Bucks, but with yet another Game 7 Finals loss, he has the postseason success to justify him as the defining player of the year. Win that overtime game three and it becomes a lot more difficult to back Kareem. But while I understand he was injured, West’s performances in Games 3, 5, and 7 were not typical PotY material to me regardless of whether they can be excused by sub-par health, and I doubt that the Knicks were forcing all those turnovers without significant fault from the primary ball-handler for the Lakers. Both he and Reed were better last season, and that largely contributes to both their teams being in slightly diminished postseason form from the previous year.

Reed wins a bit of a makeup MVP — and a “leadership” Finals MVP — despite a lesser season. Frazier maintains, although his scoring in the Bucks series is enough of an individual blemish that I will not definitively say he improves; nevertheless, he steps up and wins them two Finals games with Reed limited. I do probably lean toward Reed for the regular season though, and with Reed’s superior series against the Bucks and with him playing like an MVP in their first two wins against the Lakers, that secures a slight edge for him.

Decent rotation of options for fifth, although I ultimately sided with Cunningham for keeping the 76ers at a high level of play (if not a high wins total) despite what has now become both a replacement of Wilt with Clark and Imhoff, and an outright loss of Chet to the Bulls. Oscar is too deep into irrelevance this season, without his usual level of truly undeniable play. Wilt misses too much of the season to qualify, but I respect rushing back for the postseason, where he was an essential piece for the Lakers against the Suns and in that Game 6 Finals win. Haywood has an impressive ABA season, but fails to achieve anything, and I agree that his gaudy numbers are tempered by lacklustre league quality. Rick Barry looks better when he plays but misses a large chunk of the season and is even less relevant, losing his series against Haywood. Connie Hawkins has a nice first season, but ultimately his raw numbers are too similar to Billy Cunningham’s, and I think it reflects less well on Hawkins that the team improves the following two seasons even as he individually declines (also, Paul Silas likely deserves a fair amount of credit for their turnaround).

Finally, I am much more willing to consider Unseld this year, where he outplays Reed in three wins and ostensibly pushes the Knicks to the brink — although much like the Lakers against the Suns, the Knicks controlled every win, with the only reasonably close game being Game 2 where the Knicks needed to mount a five-point fourth quarter comeback to win by eight — but Earl, Gus, and Jack are all all-star talents, so team accomplishment will always be tempered. Individually, Unseld is a more serious competitor than he was last year now that Wilt and Thurmond are also injured, Hayes is out of the postseason, Oscar has slumped, etc.; however, that all brings him up to only ~eighth for me this year. In a series against the 76ers, I do not think Unseld would look like a superior player to Cunningham — and in fact we see exactly that next season.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#4 » by trelos6 » Tue Sep 10, 2024 10:57 pm

ElGee wrote:Estimated Pace Adjusted Satistics 1970

ORtg

Code: Select all

1.  Atlanta      103.0
2.  Milwaukee    102.9
3.  Phoenix      102.1
4.  New York     100.9
4.  Philadelphia  100.9
6.  Detroit      100.5
7.  Seattle      100.1
LEAGUE AVG.      99.2
8.  Baltimore    98.6
9.  Cincinnati   98.0
10. Los Angeles   97.6
11. Chicago      97.3
12. Boston       96.9
13. San Diego    95.7
14. San Francisco 94.1


DRtg

Code: Select all

1.  New York     92.9
2.  Baltimore    96.9
3.  San Francisco 97.4
4.  Philadelphia  98.0
5.  Boston       98.5
6.  Chicago      98.8
6.  San Diego    98.8
8.  Milwaukee    98.9
9.  Los Angeles   99.2
LEAGUE AVG.      99.2
10. Cincinnati   100.4
11. Seattle      102.4
12. Atlanta      102.6
13. Detroit      103.5
14. Phoenix      103.6


Code: Select all

        Pts/75  Reb/75 Ast/75 Rel TS%
======================================
West     23.3   3.4   5.6   6.1%
Alcindor  20.8   10.5   3.0   4.1%
Billy C   19.7   10.3   3.3   1.3%
Hawkins   18.5   7.8   3.6   5.2%
Oscar    18.3   4.4   5.9   6.6%
Reed     18.0   11.5   1.7   4.1%     
Havlicek  17.7   5.7   5.0   2.2%
Frazier   16.7   4.8   6.6   6.4%


Enter, Kareem. Wilt was injured and is out of contention. Oscar had a big decline this season, but can still be considered a fringe top 5 candidate. West was still one of the best players, and is in strong consideration for OPOY, POY. Frazier continues to improve, as does Havlicek, and then there's Kareem. In the ABA, we have Spencer Hayward and his terrific rookie season.

The Knicks are by far and away the best defensive team, and they were led by 3 strong defensive players. Reed, Frazier and DeBusschere. All 3 made first team all D. Wes Unseld and Gus Johnson had the Bullets as the second best D. Thurmond was injured for quite a lot of the year, so he misses out on the ballot. Hayward and Daniels deserve a mention in the ABA. I want to reward 2 Knicks players, since they were by far and away the best defense. Reed was strong, but not a real "rim protector", and I do like Frazier's value.

On offense, enter West the playmaker. He starts to ramp up his assists, now that he’s got Wilt. The Lakers offense in the regular season isn’t great, but they are the best offense in the playoffs. That’s just enough to give West the #1 OPOY. For the rest of the spots, there are a few names. Lou Hudson, Kareem, Frazier, and Connie Hawkins. Even Oscar’s individual numbers are pretty good, but I can’t justify him ahead of the names mentioned. It comes to down playoff performances to split hairs.

OPOY
1.Jerry West
2.Walt Frazier
3.Kareem Abdul Jabbar

HM:Connie Hawkins

DPOY

1.Dave DeBusschere
2.Willis Reed
3.Wes Unseld

HM: Walt Frazier

Finally, POY. The top 2 is close, and I’m going with West for his playmaking and great D. Walt Frazier 3rd for his efficient scoring, playmaking and D. Willis Reed at 4 for his all round game. I’ll give Oscar 5, and Havlicek 6. They are both relevant and still very good. I couldn’t get there with Hawkins and the Suns defense, or Wes Unseld and offense.

POY
1.Jerry West
2.Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3.Walt Frazier
4.Willis Reed
5.Oscar Robertson

HM:John Havlicek
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#5 » by penbeast0 » Wed Sep 11, 2024 12:31 am

There's no question that Kareem was the most exciting player in the league, I remember watching him in awe. It was like young Wilt all over again though more mobility in his game (not necessarily potentially but in terms of use) and less power. The Bucks had the second best record in the league and while Flynn Robinson was one of those scorers that had always seemed underutilized and Jon McGlocklin gave the team a pair of good offensive guards (and they had good defensive forwards), they don't compare to the level of talent around Reed (or Frazier if you consider him 1A) on the Knicks. I think I have to go with Kareem for POY.

The Knicks have Reed and Frazier and some solid players around them (Debusschere, Barnett, the Bradley/Cazzie Russell pairing at SF). I have Reed over Frazier, it's close except for the ECF where Reed carried the team while Frazier was very limited. He's an easy top 5, Frazier might slide in as well.

The Bullets were the 3rd best team in the RS; Unseld was probably again their best player though Monroe was the straw that stirred the drink offensively. They came up against the league champion and best record Knicks in the 1st round (how did that happen?) and took them to 7 with neither Reed nor Frazier that effective in game 7 but DeBusschere, Barnett, and Cazzie Russell stepped up in terms of scoring. Not sure how to rate Unseld v. Frazier (or for that matter Monroe).

The Hawks had the 4th best RS record with Lou Hudson and Joe Caldwell their prime scorers. Caldwell was also a strong defender, Hudson the extremely efficient floor spacer. The Lakers swept them in 4 and I don't think any Hawks make my top 5.

The Lakers were the only other real contender. They went all the way to the finals after a disappointing regular season where Wilt only played 12 games and both starting forwards only played 55. Strong carry job by West with them out; another fine playoff run, West is certainly in my top 5 this year, leaning to #2 for him.

Philly was the last team above .500. Cunningham had a fine statistical year, Greer and Clark played well at guard, weak inside.

Oscar did Oscar things, Hayes led the league in minutes, Connie Hawkins tried to come back from his brutal knee injury and was good enough to make 1st team All-NBA. Spencer Haywood had a monster stat year in the ABA though his immaturity level was apparently also quite high; that may have been overblown as he was the first undergraduate or "hardship" player to play in the pros.

1. Kareem
2. West
3. Reed
4. Unseld
5. Frazier
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#6 » by One_and_Done » Wed Sep 11, 2024 1:05 am

My #1 by far is Kareem.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#7 » by Dr Positivity » Wed Sep 11, 2024 1:49 am

The Bucks seem like they had no business getting to 56 W with that support cast. I’ll probably vote Kareem 1st.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#8 » by eminence » Wed Sep 11, 2024 2:09 am

General team commentary.

ABA - Haywood has a huge statistical year (shoutout to teammate Jones as well), while Brown/Daniels/crew win the most games and take home the title. With how strong Zelmo comes in next season (a guy I've generally seen ~10th in the NBA, managed to grab one 5th vote) I just can't see any of these guys seriously competing for my top 5 spots, maybe if we went out to 10.

Rockets - Hayes has another big statistical year, but team falls off too much to even consider him this season.

Warriors - Thurmond shows big impact, but misses too much time this go around.

Pistons - Bing leads a decent offense, not a POY contender.

Celtics - Didn't talk about it much last season, but others have, a big reason why I believe in late career Russell. Hondo is legit and it's mostly a bunch of role guys after that, and this is the result you get.

Sonics - Wilkens leads/coaches a decent squad, decent on O in particular, another good, but clearly sub contender level guy.

Royals - Oscar shows good impact, but misses some time, and it's probably his worst season to date even ignoring missed time. Decent chance he misses my ballot for the first time in his career.

Suns - Hawkins turns them around at least a bit, I'd probably narrowly take him over Oscar for this season. Not able to maintain defensive impact from the ABA into the big leagues. Go up 3-1 on the Lakers before West/Wilt remember they're supposed to be 2 of the best in the world. Decent contender for the back of my ballot.

Bulls - Decent impact signal from Sloan, but not really any guys I'd point to as clear All-NBA talents.

Sixers - Cunningham leads another decent Sixers squad, in contention for the back of the ballot. Greer a bit of a playoff faller through his career it seems to me.

Lakers - Wilt won't be making my top 5, despite a strong PO run. West on the other hand will easily be on the ballot, top guy discussed so far. Good job keeping the Lakers solidly in position without Wilt and some other injury issues. Good effort against the Knicks. Smacked the Hawks. Took a minute to wake up against Phoenix.

Hawks - Hudson shoots them to the #1 RS offense, but holy hell he better have been maimed to turn that performance in against the Lakers in the POs. 29.3% from the floor is not where you need to be. If that series had looked decent I'd have thought about him, but as is I just can't see it comparing him to Hawkins from the Lakers prior series.

Bullets - Good, balanced squad, Unseld their MVP imo. Much stronger PO outing this go around, pushed the Knicks hard. Unseld another guy that seems a reasonable pick for the back of the top 5.

Bucks - Dandridge is another good addition, but it's the arrival of KAJ that does it, huge impact from the jump. I generally like his defense in his younger years (much more mobile, and I don't think his defensive awareness progressed that much through his career). Strong contender for the #1 spot.

Knicks - Yo Walt, wtf was that Bucks series? If I could pretend that didn't happen you might be my #1 (or at least #2 to KAJ), but with that it opens me up to Reed as the top Knick and I can't see going Frazier over West. Both Knick stars will be on my ballot.

Guys I'm thinking about in tiers:
KAJ
Reed/West/Frazier
Unseld/Hawkins/Oscar/Cunningham
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#9 » by Djoker » Wed Sep 11, 2024 4:28 am

Kareem's rookie season is a tale of two halves.

First 41 games: 26.3/14.9/4.2 on 51.3 %TS (+0.2 rTS) - 27-14 record

Definitely some growing pains to start off. Even the great Kareem needed some time to adjust to the NBA. It didn't help that he played a few games against Wilt and Nate during the first half of the season as well before the two were forced out by injuries.

Last 41 games: 31.3/14.1/4.0 on 59.1 %TS (+8.0 rTS) -- 29-12 record

The second half of the season was just monstrous from Kareem as he put it into high gear and almost matched his second season output. As eminence said, even young Kareem was very active on defense too thanks to his fine motor and he had great length to contest and block shots. By the time the season ended, I think he already made a case for himself as potentially the best player in the world. But by the time the playoffs ended, he put himself in the driver's seat IMO. In fact, I also believe that Kareem is the greatest rookie in NBA history for the turnaround he orchestrated on the Bucks from the season prior and just how NBA ready he was. It took him half a rookie season to enter his prime! :lol:

EDSF vs. Sixers: 36.2/15.8/3.4 on 63.1 %TS (+12.4 rTS) -- 4-1

Huge 1st round series in which he didn't have a single bad game. Sixers had 3.32 SRS which was the third highest in the league so they were a solid opponent and they offered little resistance.

EDF vs. Knicks: 34.2/17.8/4.8 on 58.5 %TS (+8.8 rTS) -- 1-4

In a battle against by far the best team in the league with an 8.42 SRS, Kareem was again transcendent and outplayed peak league MVP Willis Reed who himself had a very good offensive series with 27.8/12.2/3.0 on 55.7 %TS (+6.9 rTS). Of course the Bucks lost the series but they were badly outgunned.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#10 » by eminence » Wed Sep 11, 2024 10:18 pm

I'm thinking my #5 spot will come down to Unseld vs Cunningham.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#11 » by OhayoKD » Wed Sep 11, 2024 10:21 pm

trelos6 wrote:Finally, POY. The top 2 is close, and I’m going with West for his playmaking and great D.


Kareem is a far better defender than West.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#12 » by trex_8063 » Thu Sep 12, 2024 1:53 am

Sorry I've missed a few. Will get in a quick tentative ballot this time....


Offensive Player of the Year
1. Jerry West - Their offense isn't great, but they were gutted by injuries, to a degree: Wilt basically misses the whole year, Hairston and Baylor each miss of a third of the year, Erickson misses 14 games. West was really carrying the load, and leads the league in scoring while still maintaining the [tied for] 6th-best TS%, and tied for 5th in apg. Oscar seems like the only one who closely approaches that output and efficiency, though their offense was even worse, and he missed five more games than West.
Helluva playoff run for West, too.

2. Oscar Robertson - I guess I'll lay out his numbers in terms relative to my #1 [West]: -5.9 ppg, +0.5% TS, +0.6 apg, for a team offense that was a little worse (lost Jerry Lucas, though fwiw did gain Johnny Green [who leads NBA in TS% playing next to Oscar]). And as mentioned, he did miss five more games than West, as far as that might be used as a tie-breaker.

3. Walt Frazier - 2nd in league in apg, >20 ppg @ TS% that's +0.3% relative to West. The Knick offense was 5th-rated in league. Granted he's got some nice offensive players next to him (Reed, Dick Barnett is still OK, Cazzie Russell is nice off the bench), though guys like DeBusschere and Bradley are not prizes on that end.

Top HM's: Kareem and Spencer Haywood. I'm gonna read some other responses, and may end up swapping one of them in for Frazier at #3.
Kareem is not far behind West in scoring, nor far behind in shooting effciency, for what was maybe the 2nd-best offense in the league. And he goes bonkers in the playoffs. Thinking about it, I REALLY might end up swapping him in at #3.
Spencer Haywood averaged 30 ppg on good shooting efficiency with >6 orpg for the ABA's best offense. I feel like that at least needs some consideration.
Lou Hudson also needs a shoutout: >25 ppg @ TS% that's +0.4% to West, and this for the league's best offense. He'd be a reasonable pick for #3, too.


Defensive Player of the Year
1. Elvin Hayes - He is anchoring the 2nd-best [albeit distantly; and they rank only a little above average in Elgee's estimated] defense in the league with not a lot of ancillary help. Solid shot-blocker, excellent rebounder; the kind of guy who erases a lot of sins.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - The addition of him [and rookie Bob Dandridge, who is <31 mpg this year] results in a -3.6 improvement to their rDRTG [ranked 5th of 14 teams]. Kareem was a long rim protector with formidable shot-block numbers (we know from later seasons) who was actually VERY mobile for his size, too. I remember being really impressed with his pnr defense in later seasons. Rebounding numbers are solid, and he's playing like 43 mpg.

3. Willis Reed - I feel like I need to include SOMEONE from the league's best [by far] defense; and I'd lean toward the big man, though this was definitely an ensemble effort, and the backcourt [Barnett, too; not just Frazier] deserve a lot of credit for the ball-pressure they apply and turnovers they generate. But ultimately Reed is the guy in the middle, contesting close shots, rebounding, I remember thinking he was an outstanding pnr defender (ahead of his time, a little); and he's also the team's "enforcer", to a degree. Giving him the nod.

Top HM's: Dave DeBusschere, Walt Frazier, Wes Unseld, Jerry West.


Player of the Year
1. Jerry West - My OPOY, HM defensively [if maybe 3rd among them]. 31/8 on good efficiency in the Finals, etc etc. idk, there are certainly other valid options, but I don't think his case is poor at all.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Has transformed the Bucks franchise. My runner-up for DPOY and possibly my top HM in OPOY [or even a swap for #3??] balloting. Monstrous playoff run.

3. Walt Frazier - Possibly 3rd [or top HM] in OPOY balloting, one of my top HM's in DPOY balloting. The true Finals MVP for the title-winning team.

4. Willis Reed - I just don't view the separation between him and Frazier to be all that large in this season (the small gap that does exist is largely due to playoff injury, in fact [and even there, there is his "heroics" to consider]). So wherever I have Frazier, I feel like Reed has to be right behind him.

5. Oscar Robertson - He's slipping by this point, but I did have him #2 in OPOY balloting, and the impact that we see on his departure (and arrival in Milwaukee) makes it apparent he's still a beast.

Top HM: Spencer Haywood, the ABA's MVP. I kinda hope someone gives him at least one 5th-place pick. Feel like he deserves to show up with at least a tiny share of the vote.
Lesser shout-outs to Lou Hudson, Wes Unseld, and maybe Billy Cunningham and John Havlicek.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#13 » by One_and_Done » Thu Sep 12, 2024 2:04 am

This is an easy vote for me.
1. Kareem. Not even close. Kareem turned a 27 win loser into a 56 win contender. The Bucks were probably the 2nd best team in the NBA this year, and probably win in 71 without Oscar given the Bucks won at the pace of a 60 win team without Oscar from 71-74. The engine of this Bucks juggernaut was all Kareem. He was indisputably the best player in the world from the get go. It was a travesty he didn’t win MVP this year. If MVP awards went to who deserved them, Kareem should have about 10.

2. Frazier. Reed has become extremely overrated over the years, in part due to his supposed “emotional leadership” and coming back to play token minutes in the finals one year when he was hurt. His finals MVP that year was a joke, as was his MVP this year. From 1971-74 the Knicks were 112-60 with Willis, but 94-62 without him. In other words he was a plus, but he wasn’t driving the success of the team. That was Frazier’s role. Before Frazier joined the team, the Knicks won 31, 30 and 36 games. It was only when Frazier arrived that the team vaulted to contention.

I think there’s a bit of a drop off after this, and I don’t feel too strongly about them, but I’d go:

3. Spencer Haywood
4. J.West
5. W.Reed

HM: Havlicek, C.Hawkins.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#14 » by Dr Positivity » Thu Sep 12, 2024 5:33 am

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Carried bad expansion team level roster to 56 Ws, plus was great in playoffs. He is not quite as good on offense as West but is a great defender.

2. Jerry West - Superior talent to the next fewer players at his best, had to carry his team without Wilt

3. Walt Frazier - Frazier is stronger offensive player and while I give Reed the edge on D since DeBusschere is the team's MVP on that end I limit the credit a bit, plus Frazier is also good.

4. Willis Reed - I might have given him the credit for playoffs over Frazier since he had great first two rounds and was dominating start of finals, though missed games at the end hurt a bit.

5. John Havlicek - Oscar slipped a bit so I'm going to give it to Havlicek for solid volume scoring, playmaking and defense combination.

Offensive player of the year

1. Jerry West
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Walt Frazier

Defensive player of the year

1. Dave DeBusschere
2. Elvin Hayes
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#15 » by OhayoKD » Thu Sep 12, 2024 5:50 am

trex_8063 wrote:5. Oscar Robertson - He's slipping by this point, but I did have him #2 in OPOY balloting, and the impact that we see on his departure (and arrival in Milwaukee) makes it apparent he's still a beast.

Hmm?

Not the cleanest sample but Cincinatti only get a little worse by SRS and 5-wins worse by record in 71. Bucks do take a big jump but about half of that comes on the defensive end with Kareem seeing a 2 point uptick in points and a massive uptick in fg%. Not sure how much credit Oscar warrants there, particularly considering the 5 point volume drop to go with a big drop in scoring efficiency.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#16 » by AEnigma » Thu Sep 12, 2024 5:53 am

Dr Positivity wrote:5. John Havlicek - Oscar slipped a bit so I'm going to give it to Havlicek for solid volume scoring, playmaking and defense combination.

Oscar was 32-37 this year. Havlicek was 33-48. Neither had a legitimate starting centre. Even a slipped Oscar is the more accomplished player.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#17 » by AEnigma » Thu Sep 12, 2024 6:03 am

OhayoKD wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:5. Oscar Robertson - He's slipping by this point, but I did have him #2 in OPOY balloting, and the impact that we see on his departure (and arrival in Milwaukee) makes it apparent he's still a beast.

Hmm?

Not the cleanest sample but Cincinatti only get a little worse by SRS and 5-wins worse by record in 71.

Replacing him with several young stars, yes. This is not particularly distinct from the circumstances for 1975 Kareem leaving the Bucks.

Bucks do take a big jump but about half of that comes on the defensive end with Kareem seeing a 2 point uptick in points and a massive uptick in fg%.

Do you think Kareem became something like 6 points better in one offseason.

Not sure how much credit Oscar warrants there, particularly considering the 5 point volume drop to go with a big drop in scoring efficiency.

No, the league became less efficient. His scoring efficiency maintained, and he was more valuable for his playmaking anyway.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#18 » by One_and_Done » Thu Sep 12, 2024 6:27 am

AEnigma wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:5. Oscar Robertson - He's slipping by this point, but I did have him #2 in OPOY balloting, and the impact that we see on his departure (and arrival in Milwaukee) makes it apparent he's still a beast.

Hmm?

Not the cleanest sample but Cincinatti only get a little worse by SRS and 5-wins worse by record in 71.

Replacing him with several young stars, yes. This is not particularly distinct from the circumstances for 1975 Kareem leaving the Bucks.

Bucks do take a big jump but about half of that comes on the defensive end with Kareem seeing a 2 point uptick in points and a massive uptick in fg%.

Do you think Kareem became something like 6 points better in one offseason.

Not sure how much credit Oscar warrants there, particularly considering the 5 point volume drop to go with a big drop in scoring efficiency.

No, the league became less efficient. His scoring efficiency maintained, and he was more valuable for his playmaking anyway.

It wouldn't be surprising to see a big leap from Kareem after his rookie season. That's normal for rookies
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#19 » by Dr Positivity » Thu Sep 12, 2024 6:48 am

AEnigma wrote:
Dr Positivity wrote:5. John Havlicek - Oscar slipped a bit so I'm going to give it to Havlicek for solid volume scoring, playmaking and defense combination.

Oscar was 32-37 this year. Havlicek was 33-48. Neither had a legitimate starting centre. Even a slipped Oscar is the more accomplished player.


It is close, Oscar is still better scorer/playmaker, but not as massively as previous seasons, then it just depends if Havlicek's defense makes up for it. I don't like Oscar's supporting cast though Green having random resurgance is at least an accomplished big to replace Lucas. Havlicek also has GP advantage.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1969-70 UPDATE 

Post#20 » by 70sFan » Thu Sep 12, 2024 6:56 am

This year is the first one when we can legitimately watch the video from the majority of the finals games, so if anyone is high on postseason success, it should be taken into consideration:

Game 1: no footage available, outside of few clips from documentaries

Game 2:: only a short news clip



Game 3:



Game 4:



Game 5:



Game 6:



Game 7:



I also have a significant part of the game 3 of 1970 ECF, for anyone willing to see how it worked out.

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