The Gradey Dick Thread Part 3

[ConSarnit]

:lol: bc

We would have the worst defensive back court in the NBA. Brown is miles ahead of Dick in that department. Then you would also eventually have to bench Gradey for a better talent after a terrible season. He should be coming off the bench until he can show a clear cut 2nd skill and passable POA defense.

Gradey isn't a defender and needs to get up to speed but his 3's and gravity will be more valuable with the starters. We are already behind in 3 point shooting than the rest of the league. Starting Bruce doesn't serve any purpose at this stage of our rebuild, even if he is a better defender

I Look at it this way; darkos job and the players job is to go out and do everything they can, even if the management doesn’t want to win. If darko thinks his best chance of winning is starting brown, then he is going to do it, unless there is some sort of interference from front office. Dwayne Casey who we can probably agree was a decent development coach, played Alan Anderson to try to win quite a bit of minutes even though everyone knew he wasn’t in the long term plans. But he played hard, played both ends and played to win, even though his overconfidence would usually hurt us down the stretch of games.

If darko wants another coaching job after us, the best way to do that is to get the most of his roster and get as many wins as possible. If we’re down 37-25 after every first quarter and we can’t stop anyone with dick in the line up might be common sense to move brown there, no? Part of development is also being in games. We all want Flagg, but some of the lengths teams will go to tank or in washingtons case just how poorly they’ve been run is pathetic and hard to watch. Makes me happy to see these lottery odds flatten out because it needed to happen.

The counter to this is Darko was brought in largely because Nurse wasn’t up to par as far as development goes. You’d have to figure there is some mandate of player development from the front office.

I’d also say this: if Dick tanks our defense (which is quite possible) then I’d put it equally likely that Brown tanks our offense in the same way. At least Dick has some upside as far as really helping this team goes (the benefits his shooting provides and the hope/prayer that his 2nd year brings some defensive improvement). I’m not really sure Darko is going to find any solutions as far as the 5th starter goes, at least not in the first half of the year. He’s a got a green 2nd year player or he’s got to slot in non-shooting guard/wing in a starting lineup already hard-up for shooting.

[Smalltown]

I’d also say this: if Dick tanks our defense (which is quite possible)

I think his defensive liabilities are overstated. I don't think he's ever going to be an elite or even good defender. But he's shown he can be at least good enough to not get played off the floor at times. Really we just need more consistency with his defence.

[Indeed]

You can cover defensive holes easier than you can cover offense. If we roll out one of the lowest volume, lowest fg% 3pt shooting lineups (as we would with Brown) this team has no chance. The only teams that are able to overcome that type of shooting are elite defensive teams (we are not one). Every other team ends up in the bottom of the league. Brown is not close to being enough of a defensive floor raiser to compensate for that lack of offense. I don’t think Dick is THE answer but if we’re going to want to compete he’s going to have to be.

For a bottom of the league defense (last year), how certain of you adding a negative (worst plus minus last year on the team) to the starting line up would result in positive?

Well, I would hope that like most young players Dick has improved from terrible to just bad/below average. You’d also be pairing him with a Barnes and Poeltl front court who you would hope could float the starting defense to an average level. I also think his shooting threat is enough to compensate for his defense.

You can put Dick on the others teams worst guard/wing. Teams can hide bad defenders. It much harder to hide next to zero shooting. That’s a better outcome than making everyone’s else life difficult because the paint is walled off 100% of the time.

As I’ve said, we have no great solution. Dick starting could easily fail. I’d rather take a chance on some upside with Dick than what I’d consider a doomed offensive lineup with Brown in it.

I don’t have much confidence in either Dick or Brown being the solution but if I squint I could maybe see a world where starting Dick works. This is a lesser of two evils choice.

Walter maybe closer to the solution, but personally, the expectation at the guards are high.
First, Quickley cannot defend the point of attack, meaning your other guard needs to do that.
Then it needs to be a shooting threat.
Lastly, he needs a handle.

Basically, if Quickley isn't a star level player, and Barnes isn't able to create for himself, we need at least one of our SG and SF to be a star player.

[ConSarnit]

For a bottom of the league defense (last year), how certain of you adding a negative (worst plus minus last year on the team) to the starting line up would result in positive?

Well, I would hope that like most young players Dick has improved from terrible to just bad/below average. You’d also be pairing him with a Barnes and Poeltl front court who you would hope could float the starting defense to an average level. I also think his shooting threat is enough to compensate for his defense.

You can put Dick on the others teams worst guard/wing. Teams can hide bad defenders. It much harder to hide next to zero shooting. That’s a better outcome than making everyone’s else life difficult because the paint is walled off 100% of the time.

As I’ve said, we have no great solution. Dick starting could easily fail. I’d rather take a chance on some upside with Dick than what I’d consider a doomed offensive lineup with Brown in it.

I don’t have much confidence in either Dick or Brown being the solution but if I squint I could maybe see a world where starting Dick works. This is a lesser of two evils choice.

Walter maybe closer to the solution, but personally, the expectation at the guards are high.
First, Quickley cannot defend the point of attack, meaning your other guard needs to do that.
Then it needs to be a shooting threat.
Lastly, he needs a handle.

Basically, if Quickley isn't a star level player, and Barnes isn't able to create for himself, we need at least one of our SG and SF to be a star player.

I think this is pretty much the main issue with the team (and the reason for the widespread “tank vs no tank” sentiment that permeates this board). We probably need a legit #1 if this team is going to go anywhere and that guy probably isn’t on the team currently. I think we have 2 solid sg’s with potential (Dick and JKW) but neither are ready yet. Hopefully one surprises but I’m not sure that’s even enough to get us to where we want to go. It’s definitely a transition year.

[ConSarnit]

I’d also say this: if Dick tanks our defense (which is quite possible)

I think his defensive liabilities are overstated. I don't think he's ever going to be an elite or even good defender. But he's shown he can be at least good enough to not get played off the floor at times. Really we just need more consistency with his defence.

He was pretty bad last year. Some advanced defensive stats (not that I give them much credence) had him as one of the worst defenders in the league. I do think he has a path to “above average” if he can get stronger. He’s smart, tries hard and has decent size. It’s just a question of Dick’s physicality at this point. He might need another year.

[Scase]

Well, I would hope that like most young players Dick has improved from terrible to just bad/below average. You’d also be pairing him with a Barnes and Poeltl front court who you would hope could float the starting defense to an average level. I also think his shooting threat is enough to compensate for his defense.

You can put Dick on the others teams worst guard/wing. Teams can hide bad defenders. It much harder to hide next to zero shooting. That’s a better outcome than making everyone’s else life difficult because the paint is walled off 100% of the time.

As I’ve said, we have no great solution. Dick starting could easily fail. I’d rather take a chance on some upside with Dick than what I’d consider a doomed offensive lineup with Brown in it.

I don’t have much confidence in either Dick or Brown being the solution but if I squint I could maybe see a world where starting Dick works. This is a lesser of two evils choice.

Walter maybe closer to the solution, but personally, the expectation at the guards are high.
First, Quickley cannot defend the point of attack, meaning your other guard needs to do that.
Then it needs to be a shooting threat.
Lastly, he needs a handle.

Basically, if Quickley isn't a star level player, and Barnes isn't able to create for himself, we need at least one of our SG and SF to be a star player.

I think this is pretty much the main issue with the team (and the reason for the widespread “tank vs no tank” sentiment that permeates this board). We probably need a legit #1 if this team is going to go anywhere and that guy probably isn’t on the team currently. I think we have 2 solid sg’s with potential (Dick and JKW) but neither are ready yet. Hopefully one surprises but I’m not sure that’s even enough to get us to where we want to go. It’s definitely a transition year.

Honestly, I don't even think the team "needs" a #1 option right now. If we are able to (or already were able to) snag another #2-ish Scottie level player, I would be 100% aboard the "push for wins" express. That team I could at least see a solid chance for being turned into a legit contender via trades, not quite the Kawhi trade situation, but definitely move some assets in a coupe years that push the team into legit contender status.

But pushing forward with this roster and trying to sacrifice draft slots for a couple wins and a play in experience? Nah that is just a fools errand. It's why it's so frustrating to hear talk about going for wins, this team isn't a 6 year tank job away from having a solid roster, it's like one top 5 pick away for being in a very good spot for years.

It's the whole "it's more expensive to be poor, than rich" thing. Someone without means has to buy a 25$ pair of boots every year, but a person with means can spend 50$ on a pair that will last 10 years. We have the situation where we can "save" up that extra 25$ to be set for years, but it looks like we're spending the 25$ we have to just make it through another year.


All that being said, tank or no tank, GD needs to be starting to get reps in. If this is what we are moving forward with, we need the young guys to get up to speed faster than normal. His defence is not atrocious, and for a 19 year old that was built like a 16 year old, that will only get better with time. Give him the starter spot, give JKW some serious bench minutes, and fire BB into the sun.

Lets go Raps etc.

[rapsincr]

ppl forget GTJ was a starter for us for the most part the past few years, gradey isnt replacing white or brooks defensively. heck we might even be slightly better defensively because dick is a better rebounder than trent.

[Smalltown]

I’d also say this: if Dick tanks our defense (which is quite possible)

I think his defensive liabilities are overstated. I don't think he's ever going to be an elite or even good defender. But he's shown he can be at least good enough to not get played off the floor at times. Really we just need more consistency with his defence.

He was pretty bad last year. Some advanced defensive stats (not that I give them much credence) had him as one of the worst defenders in the league. I do think he has a path to “above average” if he can get stronger. He’s smart, tries hard and has decent size. It’s just a question of Dick’s physicality at this point. He might need another year.

I mean yes. The stats aren't flattering. But you need to kinda look past the first half of the season with everything with him. He was clearly lost and adjusting. He also played in quite a bit garbage time level lineups which doesn't help either. But as you say - you can clearly see a path to where he's an average defender (above average would be a nice surprise).

[dagger]

I think the point that Trent didn't give us many assists or boards is significant. Gradey seems likely to give more of both. And when you are in the mix for boards, you will cause a few deflections as well. And while Gary had some steals, he also was a gambler who was exposed just as often. Just playing team defence conservatively would be helpful

[WuTang_CMB]

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[Raps in 4]

I think the point that Trent didn't give us many assists or boards is significant. Gradey seems likely to give more of both. And when you are in the mix for boards, you will cause a few deflections as well. And while Gary had some steals, he also was a gambler who was exposed just as often. Just playing team defence conservatively would be helpful

Gradey's basketball IQ is miles ahead of GTJ's.

[WuTang_CMB]

Watch on YouTube

[WuTang_CMB]

Watch on YouTube

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[Duffman100]

I won't say 15, but he has put on some muscle.

[DreamTeam09]

I hate his 1 foot take off package, generally I hate when players take off of 1, it screwed up a lot of his drives last year. The added strength is for not trying to beat ya man to the spot, but to initiate & absorb contact

[Scase]

I won't say 15, but he has put on some muscle.

Hard not to, he looked like a 16 year old last year I have some high expectations for him, I'm hoping for a good year!

[Thaddy]

Gradey needs to grow a beard. He looked like a 15 year old teenager last year. His physical growth should help his defense but I'm worried about his agility and athleticism taking a hit. Either way he's the starter and we will be tanking. If we're somehow a playoff team it'll be due to our core 4 of BBQ and Dick.

[HiJiNX]

I think the point that Trent didn't give us many assists or boards is significant. Gradey seems likely to give more of both. And when you are in the mix for boards, you will cause a few deflections as well. And while Gary had some steals, he also was a gambler who was exposed just as often. Just playing team defence conservatively would be helpful

When individual players rebound and hustle like Gradey does it leads to more luck with loose balls and offensive rebounds recovered for the entire team. When coaching, I love active players with a high motor because they occupy defenders and draw attention, which means other players on your team aren’t being paid attention to, and those players can then sneak in for cuts, putbacks, open threes, etc. It makes a huge difference.

[HiJiNX]

I hate his 1 foot take off package, generally I hate when players take off of 1, it screwed up a lot of his drives last year. The added strength is for not trying to beat ya man to the spot, but to initiate & absorb contact

I think players need to be able to take off one foot or two. A guy like Jason Richardson (remember him?) probably would have been a much better player if he was able to take off one foot. Two feet for power and absorbing contact, one foot for speed and agility.

[HiJiNX]

I won't say 15, but he has put on some muscle.

I don’t think 15 lbs is a stretch. His arms, shoulders, back, legs, backside are all noticeably larger.