Trades and Transactions Thread Cont'd - Where the Center At?

[moocow007]

You people still at the Towns thing lol?

The Knicks will end up with Nick Richards or Robert Williams (Ainge isn't trading Kessler to the Knicks).

Here's some highlight vids to artificially inflate expectations and their abilities. Just accept it.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

The Knicks don't have the assets to land Towns and Towns contract doesn't work with what this team has.

Robert Williams returning and playing (mostly) healthy then helping the Knicks take out his old team would be gold. More and more I'm more than ok with Nick Richards.

[spree2kawhi]

You people still at the Towns thing lol?

The Knicks will end up with Nick Richards or Robert Williams (don't have the assets for Kessler).

Here's some highlight vids to artificially inflate expectations and their abilities. Just accept it.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Good.

[Iron Mantis]

You people still at the Towns thing lol?

The Knicks will end up with Nick Richards or Robert Williams (don't have the assets for Kessler).

[JayTWill]

They are also failng to take into account KAT is a second option on the Timberwolves, while Julius is the first option and teams literally have to gameplan against him.

Opposing teams know KAT just wants to chuck up 3 pointers all game because he's too weak to score below the free throw line, so they just let him chuck up 3 pointers.

Also, KAT commits some of the dumbest fouls and he does them in bunches.

let me introduce to you: Jalen Brunson.

Randle is a turnover waiting to happen, so of course they are game planning precisely for him.

BTW you’re preaching to the choir. Towns is a perfect second option: possibly the best floor spacer in the NBA shooting 41.6 3P% last season at 7‘0“, willing passer, won’t stop the ball, very good screener, exploits mismatches, can guard the very big players, unreal efficiency and shooting splits, top level rebounding at 10.8 rpg over his career. Nothing to complain about.

I think you're misinterpreting.

Having Randle means JB isn't getting doubled at the half court line. If KAT's shot isn't falling, he isn't contributing in other areas aside from defensive rebounds that generally carry over to him. And having your 60 million dollar player be your 2nd option for jumpers is putrid. I honestly feel like people just watch highlight reels and don't watch T-Wolves game. I had the pleasure of watching more than a handful of T-Wolve games over the years.

And, let me know point out something that I think only a handful of people noticed, the "aggravators" on this alleged fit with JB and Randle are notable fans of a specific team. Want to guess who they are? Simmons and Lowe, i.e., Boston fans. They want a KAT trade to go down because it weakens the Knicks. Randle is far more versatile than KAT and requires a legitimate gameplan around him. I have no idea how you spun having 2 players that require double teaming that into a negative. A player like KAT plays into their defensive strength. You know how pissed off this fanbase would be when Derrick freakin' White or Jrue mother-freakin' Holiday shuts down KAT? Because that's going to happen. Hell, we seen it when KP was on this team when he was being locked down by Smart.

Just look at the 2 games KAT played against this current version of Boston. 11-27 FG, 3-17 3FG, 9 assist, 8 turnovers, and fouled out both games with a TS% of 48.65 since everyone loves to follow that stat. This version of the Knicks haven't played against Boston (OG, not Bridges), so I don't think it's a fair comparisons, but I'll throw these stats out anyway. Randle's numbers against this version of Boston were 14-34 FG, 5-12 3FG, 8 assist, 9 turnovers, and didn't foul out with a TS% of 56.05. While I find the TS% difference hilarious because that seems to be KAT desirers talking point, the numbers overall are not significantly better or worse. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say with OG on this team, those numbers are better.

I are we even calling a 3 Assist to 2.9 Turnovers a willing passer in KAT. At times, this dude is incredibly careless with the ball. I can't see anybody looking at Randle's 5.0 Assist to 3.5 Turnovers a negative. High risk, high rewards and it -- according to these numbers -- seems to be working.

I'm not a big fan of either KAT or Randle as the #2 option for the Knicks. As you mentioned paying 50-60 million for a jumpshooting big with limited playmaking and underwhelming defense while giving up multiple assets is not a gamble I would voluntarily want to make and I still see no reason for the Wolves to trade for the Knicks' pieces. I could see the appeal of having multiple shooters around JB but I just feel there are cheaper ways to create spacing on the court and i'm not a fan of KAT as the backline of the defense the same way I would not want to play Randle at center either.

I'm not sure if I agree with KAT making it easier to double Brunson. The Sixers gave Brunson a ton of attention for the first 2 games of the playoffs this year but they had to switch up their defense when Hart started making shots. Having the floor spread with multiple shooters in basically a 4 on 3 situation if Brunson gives up the ball is difficult to defend.

Having Randle on the floor is a much better option than a lineup such as the ones involving Hart, Precious and ihart or another non-shooting center where it just invited teams to trap Brunson. Randle also provides another ballhandler in the half court and someone who also likes to bring the ball up the court. You can't double Brunson if he doesn't have the ball but simply having Randle on the court with him doesn't prevent it.

We have seen teams double Brunson in big moments with Randle on the court. Randle's game winner against Miami came off of Brunson being doubled twice, Randle ending up with the ball, turning the ball over once and almost a second time before hitting a difficult shot. The Miami series ended with Brunson being doubled by Hart's man and Randle being left wide open at the 3 point line before Brunson turned it over trying to force it to Randle in a congested paint instead of making the simple pass back to Hart. Hart being a poor shooter may have discouraged him.

As far as Boston I just see it as a tough matchup for Randle. Defensively he and Mitch will have to guard and space which isn't their strength. Offensively the pairing makes it difficult for Randle too. Boston has multiple great individual defenders and KP will have the ability to roam freely at times to take away easier shots in the paint which is Randle's strength. Ideally you would surround Randle with shooters but when you speed him up and make him see multiple bodies things start to breakdown including his playmaking. He has a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio in the playoffs.

I'm not sure where you are getting Randle's numbers against Boston from. Maybe my numbers are wrong. I know the 2 teams played 3 times before the OG trade. Randle actually shot well from 3 in 2 of those games but struggled overall from 2 and the free throw line with a .455 TS% and the team was -13, -10 and -18 with him on the court in those 3 games. The team has improved since then imo but we still haven't solved the KP issue and pairing Randle with non-shooting bigs.

[Wildcat]

let me introduce to you: Jalen Brunson.

Randle is a turnover waiting to happen, so of course they are game planning precisely for him.

BTW you’re preaching to the choir. Towns is a perfect second option: possibly the best floor spacer in the NBA shooting 41.6 3P% last season at 7‘0“, willing passer, won’t stop the ball, very good screener, exploits mismatches, can guard the very big players, unreal efficiency and shooting splits, top level rebounding at 10.8 rpg over his career. Nothing to complain about.

I think you're misinterpreting.

Having Randle means JB isn't getting doubled at the half court line. If KAT's shot isn't falling, he isn't contributing in other areas aside from defensive rebounds that generally carry over to him. And having your 60 million dollar player be your 2nd option for jumpers is putrid. I honestly feel like people just watch highlight reels and don't watch T-Wolves game. I had the pleasure of watching more than a handful of T-Wolve games over the years.

And, let me know point out something that I think only a handful of people noticed, the "aggravators" on this alleged fit with JB and Randle are notable fans of a specific team. Want to guess who they are? Simmons and Lowe, i.e., Boston fans. They want a KAT trade to go down because it weakens the Knicks. Randle is far more versatile than KAT and requires a legitimate gameplan around him. I have no idea how you spun having 2 players that require double teaming that into a negative. A player like KAT plays into their defensive strength. You know how pissed off this fanbase would be when Derrick freakin' White or Jrue mother-freakin' Holiday shuts down KAT? Because that's going to happen. Hell, we seen it when KP was on this team when he was being locked down by Smart.

Just look at the 2 games KAT played against this current version of Boston. 11-27 FG, 3-17 3FG, 9 assist, 8 turnovers, and fouled out both games with a TS% of 48.65 since everyone loves to follow that stat. This version of the Knicks haven't played against Boston (OG, not Bridges), so I don't think it's a fair comparisons, but I'll throw these stats out anyway. Randle's numbers against this version of Boston were 14-34 FG, 5-12 3FG, 8 assist, 9 turnovers, and didn't foul out with a TS% of 56.05. While I find the TS% difference hilarious because that seems to be KAT desirers talking point, the numbers overall are not significantly better or worse. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say with OG on this team, those numbers are better.

I are we even calling a 3 Assist to 2.9 Turnovers a willing passer in KAT. At times, this dude is incredibly careless with the ball. I can't see anybody looking at Randle's 5.0 Assist to 3.5 Turnovers a negative. High risk, high rewards and it -- according to these numbers -- seems to be working.

I'm not a big fan of either KAT or Randle as the #2 option for the Knicks. As you mentioned paying 50-60 million for a jumpshooting big with limited playmaking and underwhelming defense while giving up multiple assets is not a gamble I would voluntarily want to make and I still see no reason for the Wolves to trade for the Knicks' pieces. I could see the appeal of having multiple shooters around JB but I just feel there are cheaper ways to create spacing on the court and i'm not a fan of KAT as the backline of the defense the same way I would not want to play Randle at center either.

I'm not sure if I agree with KAT making it easier to double Brunson. The Sixers gave Brunson a ton of attention for the first 2 games of the playoffs this year but they had to switch up their defense when Hart started making shots. Having the floor spread with multiple shooters in basically a 4 on 3 situation if Brunson gives up the ball is difficult to defend.

Having Randle on the floor is a much better option than a lineup such as the ones involving Hart, Precious and ihart or another non-shooting center where it just invited teams to trap Brunson. Randle also provides another ballhandler in the half court and someone who also likes to bring the ball up the court. You can't double Brunson if he doesn't have the ball but simply having Randle on the court with him doesn't prevent it.

We have seen teams double Brunson in big moments with Randle on the court. Randle's game winner against Miami came off of Brunson being doubled twice, Randle ending up with the ball, turning the ball over once and almost a second time before hitting a difficult shot. The Miami series ended with Brunson being doubled by Hart's man and Randle being left wide open at the 3 point line before Brunson turned it over trying to force it to Randle in a congested paint instead of making the simple pass back to Hart. Hart being a poor shooter may have discouraged him.

As far as Boston I just see it as a tough matchup for Randle. Defensively he and Mitch will have to guard and space which isn't their strength. Offensively the pairing makes it difficult for Randle too. Boston has multiple great individual defenders and KP will have the ability to roam freely at times to take away easier shots in the paint which is Randle's strength. Ideally you would surround Randle with shooters but when you speed him up and make him see multiple bodies things start to breakdown including his playmaking. He has a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio in the playoffs.

I'm not sure where you are getting Randle's numbers against Boston from. Maybe my numbers are wrong. I know the 2 teams played 3 times before the OG trade. Randle actually shot well from 3 in 2 of those games but struggled overall from 2 and the free throw line with a .455 TS% and the team was -13, -10 and -18 with him on the court in those 3 games. The team has improved since then imo but we still haven't solved the KP issue and pairing Randle with non-shooting bigs.

Yeah, you're right. For some reason I thought the October game was a preseason game.

But his TS% did improve each game (28.9, 52.4, 59.7 via Statmuse), FG% 22.7, 36.8, 46.7. In the last game, he took fewer 3's than the previous 2 games and started working the paint, JB was off, and I-Hart wasn't a starter, yet. Knicks couldn't stop a nose bleed that game. It was a very frustrating game. Also in that game, he took fewer 3's, and was 3-8 in the paint. He got the memo.

Context a bit different, but I still stand by Boston being more than capable of handling KAT over Randle. You're just not beating Boston on perimeter. Conversely, KAT interior play was a bit better, but if your whole schtick is stretching the D, that didn't happen since he went 3-14 from 3P.

Randle's AST/TO (0.965) in the playoffs is better than KAT's playoff career AST/TO (0.904). The difference might seem small, but it really isn't. And before this offseason, his numbers were even worse at 0.596. I find those numbers obviously ridiculous for a player that's not asked to create shots for others. Like I said, high risk, high rewards when it comes to what Randle can do off the dribble. But that's so much harder to guard than someone by large spotting up for 3's.

[Iron Mantis]

I think you're misinterpreting.

Having Randle means JB isn't getting doubled at the half court line. If KAT's shot isn't falling, he isn't contributing in other areas aside from defensive rebounds that generally carry over to him. And having your 60 million dollar player be your 2nd option for jumpers is putrid. I honestly feel like people just watch highlight reels and don't watch T-Wolves game. I had the pleasure of watching more than a handful of T-Wolve games over the years.

And, let me know point out something that I think only a handful of people noticed, the "aggravators" on this alleged fit with JB and Randle are notable fans of a specific team. Want to guess who they are? Simmons and Lowe, i.e., Boston fans. They want a KAT trade to go down because it weakens the Knicks. Randle is far more versatile than KAT and requires a legitimate gameplan around him. I have no idea how you spun having 2 players that require double teaming that into a negative. A player like KAT plays into their defensive strength. You know how pissed off this fanbase would be when Derrick freakin' White or Jrue mother-freakin' Holiday shuts down KAT? Because that's going to happen. Hell, we seen it when KP was on this team when he was being locked down by Smart.

Just look at the 2 games KAT played against this current version of Boston. 11-27 FG, 3-17 3FG, 9 assist, 8 turnovers, and fouled out both games with a TS% of 48.65 since everyone loves to follow that stat. This version of the Knicks haven't played against Boston (OG, not Bridges), so I don't think it's a fair comparisons, but I'll throw these stats out anyway. Randle's numbers against this version of Boston were 14-34 FG, 5-12 3FG, 8 assist, 9 turnovers, and didn't foul out with a TS% of 56.05. While I find the TS% difference hilarious because that seems to be KAT desirers talking point, the numbers overall are not significantly better or worse. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say with OG on this team, those numbers are better.

I are we even calling a 3 Assist to 2.9 Turnovers a willing passer in KAT. At times, this dude is incredibly careless with the ball. I can't see anybody looking at Randle's 5.0 Assist to 3.5 Turnovers a negative. High risk, high rewards and it -- according to these numbers -- seems to be working.

I'm not a big fan of either KAT or Randle as the #2 option for the Knicks. As you mentioned paying 50-60 million for a jumpshooting big with limited playmaking and underwhelming defense while giving up multiple assets is not a gamble I would voluntarily want to make and I still see no reason for the Wolves to trade for the Knicks' pieces. I could see the appeal of having multiple shooters around JB but I just feel there are cheaper ways to create spacing on the court and i'm not a fan of KAT as the backline of the defense the same way I would not want to play Randle at center either.

I'm not sure if I agree with KAT making it easier to double Brunson. The Sixers gave Brunson a ton of attention for the first 2 games of the playoffs this year but they had to switch up their defense when Hart started making shots. Having the floor spread with multiple shooters in basically a 4 on 3 situation if Brunson gives up the ball is difficult to defend.

Having Randle on the floor is a much better option than a lineup such as the ones involving Hart, Precious and ihart or another non-shooting center where it just invited teams to trap Brunson. Randle also provides another ballhandler in the half court and someone who also likes to bring the ball up the court. You can't double Brunson if he doesn't have the ball but simply having Randle on the court with him doesn't prevent it.

We have seen teams double Brunson in big moments with Randle on the court. Randle's game winner against Miami came off of Brunson being doubled twice, Randle ending up with the ball, turning the ball over once and almost a second time before hitting a difficult shot. The Miami series ended with Brunson being doubled by Hart's man and Randle being left wide open at the 3 point line before Brunson turned it over trying to force it to Randle in a congested paint instead of making the simple pass back to Hart. Hart being a poor shooter may have discouraged him.

As far as Boston I just see it as a tough matchup for Randle. Defensively he and Mitch will have to guard and space which isn't their strength. Offensively the pairing makes it difficult for Randle too. Boston has multiple great individual defenders and KP will have the ability to roam freely at times to take away easier shots in the paint which is Randle's strength. Ideally you would surround Randle with shooters but when you speed him up and make him see multiple bodies things start to breakdown including his playmaking. He has a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio in the playoffs.

I'm not sure where you are getting Randle's numbers against Boston from. Maybe my numbers are wrong. I know the 2 teams played 3 times before the OG trade. Randle actually shot well from 3 in 2 of those games but struggled overall from 2 and the free throw line with a .455 TS% and the team was -13, -10 and -18 with him on the court in those 3 games. The team has improved since then imo but we still haven't solved the KP issue and pairing Randle with non-shooting bigs.

Yeah, you're right. For some reason I thought the October game was a preseason game.

But his TS% did improve each game (28.9, 52.4, 59.7 via Statmuse), FG% 22.7, 36.8, 46.7. In the last game, he took fewer 3's than the previous 2 games and started working the paint, JB was off, and I-Hart wasn't a starter, yet. Knicks couldn't stop a nose bleed that game. It was a very frustrating game. Also in that game, he took fewer 3's, and was 3-8 in the paint. He got the memo.

Context a bit different, but I still stand by Boston being more than capable of handling KAT over Randle. You're just not beating Boston on perimeter. Conversely, KAT interior play was a bit better, but if your whole schtick is stretching the D, that didn't happen since he went 3-14 from 3P.

Randle's AST/TO (0.965) in the playoffs is better than KAT's playoff career AST/TO (0.904). The difference might seem small, but it really isn't. And before this offseason, his numbers were even worse at 0.596. I find those numbers obviously ridiculous for a player that's not asked to create shots for others. Like I said, high risk, high rewards when it comes to what Randle can do off the dribble. But that's so much harder to guard than someone by large spotting up for 3's.

What's Joel Embiid's AST/TO in the playoffs?

[thebuzzardman]

You people still at the Towns thing lol?

The Knicks will end up with Nick Richards or Robert Williams (Ainge isn't trading Kessler to the Knicks).

Here's some highlight vids to artificially inflate expectations and their abilities. Just accept it.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

The Knicks don't have the assets to land Towns and Towns contract doesn't work with what this team has.

Robert Williams returning and playing (mostly) healthy then helping the Knicks take out his old team would be gold. More and more I'm more than ok with Nick Richards.

I approve of the jersey

[JayTWill]

I think you're misinterpreting.

Having Randle means JB isn't getting doubled at the half court line. If KAT's shot isn't falling, he isn't contributing in other areas aside from defensive rebounds that generally carry over to him. And having your 60 million dollar player be your 2nd option for jumpers is putrid. I honestly feel like people just watch highlight reels and don't watch T-Wolves game. I had the pleasure of watching more than a handful of T-Wolve games over the years.

And, let me know point out something that I think only a handful of people noticed, the "aggravators" on this alleged fit with JB and Randle are notable fans of a specific team. Want to guess who they are? Simmons and Lowe, i.e., Boston fans. They want a KAT trade to go down because it weakens the Knicks. Randle is far more versatile than KAT and requires a legitimate gameplan around him. I have no idea how you spun having 2 players that require double teaming that into a negative. A player like KAT plays into their defensive strength. You know how pissed off this fanbase would be when Derrick freakin' White or Jrue mother-freakin' Holiday shuts down KAT? Because that's going to happen. Hell, we seen it when KP was on this team when he was being locked down by Smart.

Just look at the 2 games KAT played against this current version of Boston. 11-27 FG, 3-17 3FG, 9 assist, 8 turnovers, and fouled out both games with a TS% of 48.65 since everyone loves to follow that stat. This version of the Knicks haven't played against Boston (OG, not Bridges), so I don't think it's a fair comparisons, but I'll throw these stats out anyway. Randle's numbers against this version of Boston were 14-34 FG, 5-12 3FG, 8 assist, 9 turnovers, and didn't foul out with a TS% of 56.05. While I find the TS% difference hilarious because that seems to be KAT desirers talking point, the numbers overall are not significantly better or worse. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say with OG on this team, those numbers are better.

I are we even calling a 3 Assist to 2.9 Turnovers a willing passer in KAT. At times, this dude is incredibly careless with the ball. I can't see anybody looking at Randle's 5.0 Assist to 3.5 Turnovers a negative. High risk, high rewards and it -- according to these numbers -- seems to be working.

I'm not a big fan of either KAT or Randle as the #2 option for the Knicks. As you mentioned paying 50-60 million for a jumpshooting big with limited playmaking and underwhelming defense while giving up multiple assets is not a gamble I would voluntarily want to make and I still see no reason for the Wolves to trade for the Knicks' pieces. I could see the appeal of having multiple shooters around JB but I just feel there are cheaper ways to create spacing on the court and i'm not a fan of KAT as the backline of the defense the same way I would not want to play Randle at center either.

I'm not sure if I agree with KAT making it easier to double Brunson. The Sixers gave Brunson a ton of attention for the first 2 games of the playoffs this year but they had to switch up their defense when Hart started making shots. Having the floor spread with multiple shooters in basically a 4 on 3 situation if Brunson gives up the ball is difficult to defend.

Having Randle on the floor is a much better option than a lineup such as the ones involving Hart, Precious and ihart or another non-shooting center where it just invited teams to trap Brunson. Randle also provides another ballhandler in the half court and someone who also likes to bring the ball up the court. You can't double Brunson if he doesn't have the ball but simply having Randle on the court with him doesn't prevent it.

We have seen teams double Brunson in big moments with Randle on the court. Randle's game winner against Miami came off of Brunson being doubled twice, Randle ending up with the ball, turning the ball over once and almost a second time before hitting a difficult shot. The Miami series ended with Brunson being doubled by Hart's man and Randle being left wide open at the 3 point line before Brunson turned it over trying to force it to Randle in a congested paint instead of making the simple pass back to Hart. Hart being a poor shooter may have discouraged him.

As far as Boston I just see it as a tough matchup for Randle. Defensively he and Mitch will have to guard and space which isn't their strength. Offensively the pairing makes it difficult for Randle too. Boston has multiple great individual defenders and KP will have the ability to roam freely at times to take away easier shots in the paint which is Randle's strength. Ideally you would surround Randle with shooters but when you speed him up and make him see multiple bodies things start to breakdown including his playmaking. He has a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio in the playoffs.

I'm not sure where you are getting Randle's numbers against Boston from. Maybe my numbers are wrong. I know the 2 teams played 3 times before the OG trade. Randle actually shot well from 3 in 2 of those games but struggled overall from 2 and the free throw line with a .455 TS% and the team was -13, -10 and -18 with him on the court in those 3 games. The team has improved since then imo but we still haven't solved the KP issue and pairing Randle with non-shooting bigs.

Yeah, you're right. For some reason I thought the October game was a preseason game.

But his TS% did improve each game (28.9, 52.4, 59.7 via Statmuse), FG% 22.7, 36.8, 46.7. In the last game, he took fewer 3's than the previous 2 games and started working the paint, JB was off, and I-Hart wasn't a starter, yet. Knicks couldn't stop a nose bleed that game. It was a very frustrating game. Also in that game, he took fewer 3's, and was 3-8 in the paint. He got the memo.

Context a bit different, but I still stand by Boston being more than capable of handling KAT over Randle. You're just not beating Boston on perimeter. Conversely, KAT interior play was a bit better, but if your whole schtick is stretching the D, that didn't happen since he went 3-14 from 3P.

Randle's AST/TO (0.965) in the playoffs is better than KAT's playoff career AST/TO (0.904). The difference might seem small, but it really isn't. And before this offseason, his numbers were even worse at 0.596. I find those numbers obviously ridiculous for a player that's not asked to create shots for others. Like I said, high risk, high rewards when it comes to what Randle can do off the dribble. But that's so much harder to guard than someone by large spotting up for 3's.

I'm not Team KAT or Team Randle. I can see the value in both. KAT's shooting and spacing versus Randle's on ball scoring and playmaking. I just have concerns about how both of their strengths hold up under pressure and how they contribute to winning outside of that.

I said this before I would love to see the Randle paired with a Wemby, KP, Holmgren type or even Bam. Just someone that provides more spacing in the paint for him to operate while also protecting the rim behind him. Unfortunately the Knicks don't have those types of bigs. They also have an offense that always becomes stagnant under pressure that allows teams to load up their defense while 5 defenders focus on the ball handler and the other Knicks just stand and wait.

My question is what happens when teams inevitably take away the paint from Randle. How reliable is his shooting and playmaking under pressure. It's great that he can draw a double team but what happens next? Sometimes he can easily find the open man with a clear sight line. Sometimes he may fumble the ball or frantically jump up in the air to throw an off target missile. Sometimes he may find a gap in the defense and make a nice shot. Sometimes he may hold the ball too long or force up a terrible shot. His playmaking is a pretty mixed bag.

Some examples of his playmaking in January against Toronto. Not the toughest competition but shows some of his capabilities.
A)
https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=AST&GameID=0022300596&PlayerID=203944&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612752&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game
B)
https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=TOV&GameID=0022300596&PlayerID=203944&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612752&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game

There is more to playmaking than assists and turnovers. Not every good decision or pass leads to an assist. Not every poor decision or pass leads to a turnover. There is a very thin line between the two for Randle many times. These clips don't show all of Randles strengths and weaknesses as a playmaker but they do show the inconsistency. You never know how much A or B you will get from him. He can have some wild swings either direction.

I'm not looking to add KAT but I also don't want to be too reliant on Randle's playmaking.

[moocow007]

As far as playoff stats for Randle goes?

The numbers have been brutal. HOWEVER, I think you need to take it with a grain of salt. Not a lot of grains but some grains.

2021 Playoffs

Mind you the Knicks would not have sniffed anywhere near the playoffs much less end up 41-31 (72 game shortened season) if it wasn't for Randle. Randle carried an otherwise terrible and talent challenged team throughout the regular season. The post season? I remember the media interviewing then Hawks head coach Nate McMillan on what his teams plans were when it came to game planning the Knicks in that 1st round. He chuckled and without giving much though basically said throw everything at Randle and let someone else beat them. Now haters will take that as a slight on Randle but if you actually step back and think it was as much a compliment of Randle as it was an insult to the rest of the Knicks roster. The Hawks basically threw everything they had at Randle and watched as the rest of the Knicks did essentially nothing. Rose was already pretty much toast by the time the playoffs rolled by and that was their only other shot creator. Now sure there have been players that have taken the attention that Randle got and excelled. But before anyone goes "yeah, see, that's why Randle sucks!" think. Who were those types of guys? That were on otherwise surrounded by poop that managed to do that? Lebron early in his career with the Cavs? Hakeem and the role players he got in his prime in Houston? Doncic and the gaggle of mid role players he got? Who? See where this is going? Also while his shooting was putrid he still rebounded real well and got his limited talent teammates involved. Now absolutely he got completely taken out of his game by the Hawks swarming and shifting defense that was again focused to get the ball out of his hands and take away his comfort zones but I would not condemn Randle for a guaranteed playoff failure for this series. Very few people would have been able to get the Knicks a win with the crap on that roster.

2023 Playoffs

Randle suffered a bad ankle injury 2 weeks before the start of the playoffs. Many thought that he shouldn't play at all. He did. And he didn't look right. Again he was struggling with his shot and folks were panicking thinking that this was a repeat of the 2021 playoffs even though the situation was completely different. And I think folks either forgot and didn't realize that he reinjured his ankle in game 5 against the Cavs. Overall the numbers were still not good but if you look at the individual game stats they were uneven. Really good game sandwiched by several not good ones, followed by a good one, etc. That to me is a sign that he's not physically right than going Chuck Knoblauch come playoff time. And him coming in with a bad ankle injury and then reinjuring it would seem to support that notion.

2024 Playoffs

He didn't play cause that ugly shoulder injury. I'm hoping folks aren't holding that against him? Or folks expecting him to play with it just because?

At the end of the day, I think, as with so many other things, folks are getting carried away and overboard. He's on this team and I'm hoping that if he's still with this team that he heads into the playoffs healthy and get to show what he can do.

[spree2kawhi]

I'm not a big fan of either KAT or Randle as the #2 option for the Knicks. As you mentioned paying 50-60 million for a jumpshooting big with limited playmaking and underwhelming defense while giving up multiple assets is not a gamble I would voluntarily want to make and I still see no reason for the Wolves to trade for the Knicks' pieces. I could see the appeal of having multiple shooters around JB but I just feel there are cheaper ways to create spacing on the court and i'm not a fan of KAT as the backline of the defense the same way I would not want to play Randle at center either.

I'm not sure if I agree with KAT making it easier to double Brunson. The Sixers gave Brunson a ton of attention for the first 2 games of the playoffs this year but they had to switch up their defense when Hart started making shots. Having the floor spread with multiple shooters in basically a 4 on 3 situation if Brunson gives up the ball is difficult to defend.

Having Randle on the floor is a much better option than a lineup such as the ones involving Hart, Precious and ihart or another non-shooting center where it just invited teams to trap Brunson. Randle also provides another ballhandler in the half court and someone who also likes to bring the ball up the court. You can't double Brunson if he doesn't have the ball but simply having Randle on the court with him doesn't prevent it.

We have seen teams double Brunson in big moments with Randle on the court. Randle's game winner against Miami came off of Brunson being doubled twice, Randle ending up with the ball, turning the ball over once and almost a second time before hitting a difficult shot. The Miami series ended with Brunson being doubled by Hart's man and Randle being left wide open at the 3 point line before Brunson turned it over trying to force it to Randle in a congested paint instead of making the simple pass back to Hart. Hart being a poor shooter may have discouraged him.

As far as Boston I just see it as a tough matchup for Randle. Defensively he and Mitch will have to guard and space which isn't their strength. Offensively the pairing makes it difficult for Randle too. Boston has multiple great individual defenders and KP will have the ability to roam freely at times to take away easier shots in the paint which is Randle's strength. Ideally you would surround Randle with shooters but when you speed him up and make him see multiple bodies things start to breakdown including his playmaking. He has a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio in the playoffs.

I'm not sure where you are getting Randle's numbers against Boston from. Maybe my numbers are wrong. I know the 2 teams played 3 times before the OG trade. Randle actually shot well from 3 in 2 of those games but struggled overall from 2 and the free throw line with a .455 TS% and the team was -13, -10 and -18 with him on the court in those 3 games. The team has improved since then imo but we still haven't solved the KP issue and pairing Randle with non-shooting bigs.

Yeah, you're right. For some reason I thought the October game was a preseason game.

But his TS% did improve each game (28.9, 52.4, 59.7 via Statmuse), FG% 22.7, 36.8, 46.7. In the last game, he took fewer 3's than the previous 2 games and started working the paint, JB was off, and I-Hart wasn't a starter, yet. Knicks couldn't stop a nose bleed that game. It was a very frustrating game. Also in that game, he took fewer 3's, and was 3-8 in the paint. He got the memo.

Context a bit different, but I still stand by Boston being more than capable of handling KAT over Randle. You're just not beating Boston on perimeter. Conversely, KAT interior play was a bit better, but if your whole schtick is stretching the D, that didn't happen since he went 3-14 from 3P.

Randle's AST/TO (0.965) in the playoffs is better than KAT's playoff career AST/TO (0.904). The difference might seem small, but it really isn't. And before this offseason, his numbers were even worse at 0.596. I find those numbers obviously ridiculous for a player that's not asked to create shots for others. Like I said, high risk, high rewards when it comes to what Randle can do off the dribble. But that's so much harder to guard than someone by large spotting up for 3's.

I'm not Team KAT or Team Randle. I can see the value in both. KAT's shooting and spacing versus Randle's on ball scoring and playmaking. I just have concerns about how both of their strengths hold up under pressure and how they contribute to winning outside of that.

I said this before I would love to see the Randle paired with a Wemby, KP, Holmgren type or even Bam. Just someone that provides more spacing in the paint for him to operate while also protecting the rim behind him. Unfortunately the Knicks don't have those types of bigs. They also have an offense that always becomes stagnant under pressure that allows teams to load up their defense while 5 defenders focus on the ball handler and the other Knicks just stand and wait.

My question is what happens when teams inevitably take away the paint from Randle. How reliable is his shooting and playmaking under pressure. It's great that he can draw a double team but what happens next? Sometimes he can easily find the open man with a clear sight line. Sometimes he may fumble the ball or frantically jump up in the air to throw an off target missile. Sometimes he may find a gap in the defense and make a nice shot. Sometimes he may hold the ball too long or force up a terrible shot. His playmaking is a pretty mixed bag.

Some examples of his playmaking in January against Toronto. Not the toughest competition but shows some of his capabilities.
A)
https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=AST&GameID=0022300596&PlayerID=203944&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612752&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game
B)
https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=TOV&GameID=0022300596&PlayerID=203944&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612752&flag=1&sct=plot&section=game

There is more to playmaking than assists and turnovers. Not every good decision or pass leads to an assist. Not every poor decision or pass leads to a turnover. There is a very thin line between the two for Randle many times. These clips don't show all of Randles strengths and weaknesses as a playmaker but they do show the inconsistency. You never know how much A or B you will get from him. He can have some wild swings either direction.

I'm not looking to add KAT but I also don't want to be too reliant on Randle's playmaking.

Well, this is the truth.

[R-DAWG]

If NY decides to move on from Randle, why not Nikola Vucevic as part of a larger 3 team trade. Vic would be a place holder on a short term, reasonable deal to replace Randles scoring.

The ideal construction of the trade would be Randle to team X, 2nd rd picks from team X to CHI, and Vuc and a first from team X to NY.

If this team is built to win now, I don't see how a place holder like an older Vucevic is the answer. I like him, but he's never played winning basketball. I would prefer him with Randle, honestly. But again, I do like him. He's an upgraded I-Hart. I have no idea how a 3-team deal would look like.

I think it's a slight step back this year to give yourself a better shot at landing a 2nd star in the future.

My initial thought is some kind of 3 team deal with the Clippers
Randle to the Clippers
Vic, PJ Tucker (expiring contract) and LA's 2030 unprotected 1st to NY

Norman Powell would need to go to Chicago, who would need something lined up to flip him. I'd love him on the Knicks, just not sure how to make the math work

I see the Knicks rotation looking something like
Vucevic/Mitch
Precious/Hart
Anunoby/DDV
Bridges/McBride
Brunson/Kolek

The closing unit would have Brunson, Bridges and Anunoby mixing in two out of DDV, Hart, Mitch and Vuc.

You lose Randle's playmaking, which is concerning (which is why Norm Powell fits in), but this is all about teeing yourself up for the next move as opposed to doubling down on Randle.

[knicksstuff]

If NY decides to move on from Randle, why not Nikola Vucevic as part of a larger 3 team trade. Vic would be a place holder on a short term, reasonable deal to replace Randles scoring.

The ideal construction of the trade would be Randle to team X, 2nd rd picks from team X to CHI, and Vuc and a first from team X to NY.

If this team is built to win now, I don't see how a place holder like an older Vucevic is the answer. I like him, but he's never played winning basketball. I would prefer him with Randle, honestly. But again, I do like him. He's an upgraded I-Hart. I have no idea how a 3-team deal would look like.

I think it's a slight step back this year to give yourself a better shot at landing a 2nd star in the future.

My initial thought is some kind of 3 team deal with the Clippers
Randle to the Clippers
Vic, PJ Tucker (expiring contract) and LA's 2030 unprotected 1st to NY

Norman Powell would need to go to Chicago, who would need something lined up to flip him. I'd love him on the Knicks, just not sure how to make the math work

I see the Knicks rotation looking something like
Vucevic/Mitch
Precious/Hart
Anunoby/DDV
Bridges/McBride
Brunson/Kolek

The closing unit would have Brunson, Bridges and Anunoby mixing in two out of DDV, Hart, Mitch and Vuc.

You lose Randle's playmaking, which is concerning (which is why Norm Powell fits in), but this is all about teeing yourself up for the next move as opposed to doubling down on Randle.

How does replacing Juluis with Vucevic help this team win? And Precious as the starting PF spot come on. Thank god you guys don't run this franchise.

[Wildcat]

I'm not a big fan of either KAT or Randle as the #2 option for the Knicks. As you mentioned paying 50-60 million for a jumpshooting big with limited playmaking and underwhelming defense while giving up multiple assets is not a gamble I would voluntarily want to make and I still see no reason for the Wolves to trade for the Knicks' pieces. I could see the appeal of having multiple shooters around JB but I just feel there are cheaper ways to create spacing on the court and i'm not a fan of KAT as the backline of the defense the same way I would not want to play Randle at center either.

I'm not sure if I agree with KAT making it easier to double Brunson. The Sixers gave Brunson a ton of attention for the first 2 games of the playoffs this year but they had to switch up their defense when Hart started making shots. Having the floor spread with multiple shooters in basically a 4 on 3 situation if Brunson gives up the ball is difficult to defend.

Having Randle on the floor is a much better option than a lineup such as the ones involving Hart, Precious and ihart or another non-shooting center where it just invited teams to trap Brunson. Randle also provides another ballhandler in the half court and someone who also likes to bring the ball up the court. You can't double Brunson if he doesn't have the ball but simply having Randle on the court with him doesn't prevent it.

We have seen teams double Brunson in big moments with Randle on the court. Randle's game winner against Miami came off of Brunson being doubled twice, Randle ending up with the ball, turning the ball over once and almost a second time before hitting a difficult shot. The Miami series ended with Brunson being doubled by Hart's man and Randle being left wide open at the 3 point line before Brunson turned it over trying to force it to Randle in a congested paint instead of making the simple pass back to Hart. Hart being a poor shooter may have discouraged him.

As far as Boston I just see it as a tough matchup for Randle. Defensively he and Mitch will have to guard and space which isn't their strength. Offensively the pairing makes it difficult for Randle too. Boston has multiple great individual defenders and KP will have the ability to roam freely at times to take away easier shots in the paint which is Randle's strength. Ideally you would surround Randle with shooters but when you speed him up and make him see multiple bodies things start to breakdown including his playmaking. He has a 1:1 assist to turnover ratio in the playoffs.

I'm not sure where you are getting Randle's numbers against Boston from. Maybe my numbers are wrong. I know the 2 teams played 3 times before the OG trade. Randle actually shot well from 3 in 2 of those games but struggled overall from 2 and the free throw line with a .455 TS% and the team was -13, -10 and -18 with him on the court in those 3 games. The team has improved since then imo but we still haven't solved the KP issue and pairing Randle with non-shooting bigs.

Yeah, you're right. For some reason I thought the October game was a preseason game.

But his TS% did improve each game (28.9, 52.4, 59.7 via Statmuse), FG% 22.7, 36.8, 46.7. In the last game, he took fewer 3's than the previous 2 games and started working the paint, JB was off, and I-Hart wasn't a starter, yet. Knicks couldn't stop a nose bleed that game. It was a very frustrating game. Also in that game, he took fewer 3's, and was 3-8 in the paint. He got the memo.

Context a bit different, but I still stand by Boston being more than capable of handling KAT over Randle. You're just not beating Boston on perimeter. Conversely, KAT interior play was a bit better, but if your whole schtick is stretching the D, that didn't happen since he went 3-14 from 3P.

Randle's AST/TO (0.965) in the playoffs is better than KAT's playoff career AST/TO (0.904). The difference might seem small, but it really isn't. And before this offseason, his numbers were even worse at 0.596. I find those numbers obviously ridiculous for a player that's not asked to create shots for others. Like I said, high risk, high rewards when it comes to what Randle can do off the dribble. But that's so much harder to guard than someone by large spotting up for 3's.

What's Joel Embiid's AST/TO in the playoffs?

Worse. 0.8348. Ironically, he had his best post season ratio at 1.36.

[Iron Mantis]

Since we highly value Patrick Beverly's wise opinion around here when it comes to KAT.... It's critical to the team's success that we take his advice seriously as he weights in on Julius Randle.

Read on Twitter

[Wildcat]

Since we highly value Patrick Beverly's wise opinion around here when it comes to KAT.... It's critical to the team's success that we take his advice seriously as he weights in on Julius Randle.

Read on Twitter

A broken clock is right twice a day.

[god shammgod]

vuc and precious as starters.....dear lord

[spree2kawhi]

Since we highly value Patrick Beverly's wise opinion around here when it comes to KAT.... It's critical to the team's success that we take his advice seriously as he weights in on Julius Randle.

Read on Twitter

A broken clock is right twice a day.

And, paradoxically, everyone who sees the writing on the wall must be blind.

Randle for Sabonis does net us the smarter player, a top level center, better passer too but the spacing Towns would provide… invaluable imo. All three don’t provide anything defensively, and, granted, Randle is probably the best of them on that end. Can’t match him up with Jokic or Embiid though…

[Wildcat]

Since we highly value Patrick Beverly's wise opinion around here when it comes to KAT.... It's critical to the team's success that we take his advice seriously as he weights in on Julius Randle.

Read on Twitter

A broken clock is right twice a day.

And, paradoxically, everyone who sees the writing on the wall must be blind.

Randle for Sabonis does net us the smarter player, a top level center, better passer too but the spacing Towns would provide… invaluable imo. All three don’t provide anything defensively, and, granted, Randle is probably the best of them on that end. Can’t match him up with Jokic or Embiid though…

Just like the writing on the wall was there for Donovan? There's nothing on wall. Contract will get resolved when it gets resolved. Nobody is rushing to ink a deal. Both sides have subtlety shown that.

I don't know the context and I didn't watch the video. Heh, liking one thing Pat said isn't universal.

I like Sabonis on this team far more than I do KAT. Sabonis does what I-Hart did, but better with his passing and potential for range. Defensively, well not a stud,he's fine with a strong supporting cast in OG and Bridges. Like Randle, I know what I'm getting night in and night out from Sabonis. Can't say the same for KAT. Like I keep falling back on, if his shot isn't dropping, he's deadweight.

[Ray Williams]

Start Julius at C with Mitch backing him up
Randle
OG
Mikel
Dante
JB

[Guano]

this has gone too far - we're seeing dissertations on kat vs randle and critical responses.

hard to take jaytwill or wildcat serious when we aren't seeing an apa citation. maybe in the next 100 pages this critical topic will be given it's proper respect.