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[toooskies]

What is the QO deadline? I'm not seeing it on Google.

October 1st

Ah nice, just saw it. That deadline can be extended by the Cavs + Okoro though. If his reps are negotiating in good faith, even if they can't come to a deal, i assume the Cavs extend it.

The more pressing thing for Okoro is, if he's not in camp, he's not guaranteed a spot in the rotation. Two of the past three years he's had slow shooting starts to the season and missing camp won't help that either. Showing up late and taking the QO at the last second, or extending it as long as possible, is a really bad strategy on his part for growing his game.

[JonFromVA]

October 1st

Ah nice, just saw it. That deadline can be extended by the Cavs + Okoro though. If his reps are negotiating in good faith, even if they can't come to a deal, i assume the Cavs extend it.

The more pressing thing for Okoro is, if he's not in camp, he's not guaranteed a spot in the rotation. Two of the past three years he's had slow shooting starts to the season and missing camp won't help that either. Showing up late and taking the QO at the last second, or extending it as long as possible, is a really bad strategy on his part for growing his game.

That's my concern - to have everyone on board and coming up to speed with our new coaching staff - hopefully he's not trying to hold that over the team's head. Rather I expect his agent is telling him to give him more time, that there are trades still to go down, and it's possible Isaac might yet find his way in to one of them and get paid.

[toooskies]

Ah nice, just saw it. That deadline can be extended by the Cavs + Okoro though. If his reps are negotiating in good faith, even if they can't come to a deal, i assume the Cavs extend it.

The more pressing thing for Okoro is, if he's not in camp, he's not guaranteed a spot in the rotation. Two of the past three years he's had slow shooting starts to the season and missing camp won't help that either. Showing up late and taking the QO at the last second, or extending it as long as possible, is a really bad strategy on his part for growing his game.

That's my concern - to have everyone on board and coming up to speed with our new coaching staff - hopefully he's not trying to hold that over the team's head. Rather I expect his agent is telling him to give him more time, that there are trades still to go down, and it's possible Isaac might yet find his way in to one of them and get paid.

About the only reason I was holding out hope for Okoro to end up in a trade is when Nance's aggregation date passed in Atlanta, but that recently passed uneventfully. Atlanta could spare a big man from their rotation and Nance could fit with both of our bigs off the bench.

[JujitsuFlip]

October 1st

Ah nice, just saw it. That deadline can be extended by the Cavs + Okoro though. If his reps are negotiating in good faith, even if they can't come to a deal, i assume the Cavs extend it.

P
Did we extend it with TT? I don't think he's free to sign elsewhere if we decline to extend.

Idk, tbh. But that was so many CBAs ago, i do not recall there ever being a deadline to accept it, even with the McCaw situation.

TT held out until October 22nd and the season started October 27th.

The following season JR held out until October 15th and the season started October 25th.

[JujitsuFlip]

October 1st

Ah nice, just saw it. That deadline can be extended by the Cavs + Okoro though. If his reps are negotiating in good faith, even if they can't come to a deal, i assume the Cavs extend it.

The more pressing thing for Okoro is, if he's not in camp, he's not guaranteed a spot in the rotation. Two of the past three years he's had slow shooting starts to the season and missing camp won't help that either. Showing up late and taking the QO at the last second, or extending it as long as possible, is a really bad strategy on his part for growing his game.

I'm with jbk on this one, if Okoro hasn't developed his game in 4 seasons and 5 summers, not sure he will. If he misses a few weeks of camp he'll probably be ok.

He may not learn Kenny's system but that is part of the risk/reward assessment on holding out.

[jbk1234]

The more pressing thing for Okoro is, if he's not in camp, he's not guaranteed a spot in the rotation. Two of the past three years he's had slow shooting starts to the season and missing camp won't help that either. Showing up late and taking the QO at the last second, or extending it as long as possible, is a really bad strategy on his part for growing his game.

That's my concern - to have everyone on board and coming up to speed with our new coaching staff - hopefully he's not trying to hold that over the team's head. Rather I expect his agent is telling him to give him more time, that there are trades still to go down, and it's possible Isaac might yet find his way in to one of them and get paid.

About the only reason I was holding out hope for Okoro to end up in a trade is when Nance's aggregation date passed in Atlanta, but that recently passed uneventfully. Atlanta could spare a big man from their rotation and Nance could fit with both of our bigs off the bench.

The Hawks have one of the weakest frontcourts in the NBA and just traded for Daniels. While Nance's advanced numbers looked okay last season, I suspect that's a function of playing fewer minutes with JV and CJ than the starters did. He really looked as though injuries and Chron's had taken a toll. He's probably a better option than a disgruntled Okoro fighting for minutes, but barely.

[jbk1234]

Ah nice, just saw it. That deadline can be extended by the Cavs + Okoro though. If his reps are negotiating in good faith, even if they can't come to a deal, i assume the Cavs extend it.

The more pressing thing for Okoro is, if he's not in camp, he's not guaranteed a spot in the rotation. Two of the past three years he's had slow shooting starts to the season and missing camp won't help that either. Showing up late and taking the QO at the last second, or extending it as long as possible, is a really bad strategy on his part for growing his game.

I'm with jbk on this one, if Okoro hasn't developed his game in 4 seasons and 5 summers, not sure he will. If he misses a few weeks of camp he'll probably be ok.

He may not learn Kenny's system but that is part of the risk/reward assessment on holding out.

Tbc, Okoro seems to be hard worker who plays hard, but sometimes a player's limitations are just that. A concern I have, and I'm sure I'm not alone, is that the version of Okoro who plays within his game is better than the version who forces things. Lamar Stevens is no longer in the NBA.

[toooskies]

Ah nice, just saw it. That deadline can be extended by the Cavs + Okoro though. If his reps are negotiating in good faith, even if they can't come to a deal, i assume the Cavs extend it.

The more pressing thing for Okoro is, if he's not in camp, he's not guaranteed a spot in the rotation. Two of the past three years he's had slow shooting starts to the season and missing camp won't help that either. Showing up late and taking the QO at the last second, or extending it as long as possible, is a really bad strategy on his part for growing his game.

I'm with jbk on this one, if Okoro hasn't developed his game in 4 seasons and 5 summers, not sure he will. If he misses a few weeks of camp he'll probably be ok.

He may not learn Kenny's system but that is part of the risk/reward assessment on holding out.

Then forget the development part. You still have to show up to earn your job.

[JujitsuFlip]

That's my concern - to have everyone on board and coming up to speed with our new coaching staff - hopefully he's not trying to hold that over the team's head. Rather I expect his agent is telling him to give him more time, that there are trades still to go down, and it's possible Isaac might yet find his way in to one of them and get paid.

About the only reason I was holding out hope for Okoro to end up in a trade is when Nance's aggregation date passed in Atlanta, but that recently passed uneventfully. Atlanta could spare a big man from their rotation and Nance could fit with both of our bigs off the bench.

The Hawks have one of the weakest frontcourts in the NBA and just traded for Daniels. While Nance's advanced numbers looked okay last season, I suspect that's a function of playing fewer minutes with JV and CJ than the starters did. He really looked as though injuries and Chron's had taken a toll. He's probably a better option than a disgruntled Okoro fighting for minutes, but barely.

You think the Hawks have a weak front court? Maybe but they for sure have depth.

5: Capela/Okongwu/Cody Zeller
4: Johnson/Nance Jr/Roddy/Mo Gueye
3: Risacher (#1 pick)/Hunter

I'd say they're one of the deepest frontcourts in the NBA.

[JujitsuFlip]

The more pressing thing for Okoro is, if he's not in camp, he's not guaranteed a spot in the rotation. Two of the past three years he's had slow shooting starts to the season and missing camp won't help that either. Showing up late and taking the QO at the last second, or extending it as long as possible, is a really bad strategy on his part for growing his game.

I'm with jbk on this one, if Okoro hasn't developed his game in 4 seasons and 5 summers, not sure he will. If he misses a few weeks of camp he'll probably be ok.

He may not learn Kenny's system but that is part of the risk/reward assessment on holding out.

Then forget the development part. You still have to show up to earn your job.

What job is he earning? I don't have him listed very high on the depth chart.

Mitch and Strus are our 2 wing starters.

LeVert is our first wing off the bench.

Wade or Niang are our first "big" off the bench.

So is Okoro fighting with Merrill, Tyson, and maybe TJ for the 10th man minutes?

[toooskies]

I'm with jbk on this one, if Okoro hasn't developed his game in 4 seasons and 5 summers, not sure he will. If he misses a few weeks of camp he'll probably be ok.

He may not learn Kenny's system but that is part of the risk/reward assessment on holding out.

Then forget the development part. You still have to show up to earn your job.

What job is he earning? I don't have him listed very high on the depth chart.

Mitch and Strus are our 2 wing starters.

LeVert is our first wing off the bench.

Wade or Niang are our first "big" off the bench.

So is Okoro fighting with Merrill, Tyson, and maybe TJ for the 10th man minutes?

If he shows up at camp on day one you can make an argument that a point-of-attack defender with low volume and high efficiency is the best fit in the starting lineup, even if not the best player.

You can make an argument that bringing in both LeVert and Strus off the bench (for Okoro and one of the guards) keeps the playmaking on offense and defense at an even level throughout the game. Particularly if you want to run all-bench lineups like you typically need to do to run rotations of more than 10 guys like Atkinson has in the past. (Let Strus or LeVert finish games.)

But at the very least keep the edge over guys like Tyson, TJ, and Niang to be the #7 or #8 guy in the rotation.

[JujitsuFlip]

Then forget the development part. You still have to show up to earn your job.

What job is he earning? I don't have him listed very high on the depth chart.

Mitch and Strus are our 2 wing starters.

LeVert is our first wing off the bench.

Wade or Niang are our first "big" off the bench.

So is Okoro fighting with Merrill, Tyson, and maybe TJ for the 10th man minutes?

If he shows up at camp on day one you can make an argument that a point-of-attack defender with low volume and high efficiency is the best fit in the starting lineup, even if not the best player.

You can make an argument that bringing in both LeVert and Strus off the bench (for Okoro and one of the guards) keeps the playmaking on offense and defense at an even level throughout the game. Particularly if you want to run all-bench lineups like you typically need to do to run rotations of more than 10 guys like Atkinson has in the past. (Let Strus or LeVert finish games.)

But at the very least keep the edge over guys like Tyson, TJ, and Niang to be the #7 or #8 guy in the rotation.

Okoro isn't going to start. Strus already solidified himself as the starting SF. Atkinson is from the Kerr, MDA, and Bud coaching trees. Those guys value shooting, Okoro is allergic to shooting; not a fit.

Okoro could be a solid 3rd wing off the bench behind LeVert and either Wade/Niang.

[toooskies]

What job is he earning? I don't have him listed very high on the depth chart.

Mitch and Strus are our 2 wing starters.

LeVert is our first wing off the bench.

Wade or Niang are our first "big" off the bench.

So is Okoro fighting with Merrill, Tyson, and maybe TJ for the 10th man minutes?

If he shows up at camp on day one you can make an argument that a point-of-attack defender with low volume and high efficiency is the best fit in the starting lineup, even if not the best player.

You can make an argument that bringing in both LeVert and Strus off the bench (for Okoro and one of the guards) keeps the playmaking on offense and defense at an even level throughout the game. Particularly if you want to run all-bench lineups like you typically need to do to run rotations of more than 10 guys like Atkinson has in the past. (Let Strus or LeVert finish games.)

But at the very least keep the edge over guys like Tyson, TJ, and Niang to be the #7 or #8 guy in the rotation.

Okoro isn't going to start. Strus already solidified himself as the starting SF. Atkinson is from the Kerr, MDA, and Bud coaching trees. Those guys value shooting, Okoro is allergic to shooting; not a fit.

Okoro could be a solid 3rd wing off the bench behind LeVert and either Wade/Niang.

Strus was the ordained starter by the last coach, and the better player. Maybe by Altman too. But Kenny isn't here to follow in JBB's footsteps. Ultimately Okoro with the starters was a better lineup in 22-23 than Strus with the starters last year.

Wade is clearly the backup 4 given we only have TT around, and Niang was worse in just about every way than Okoro both in the playoffs and regular season. Him ahead of Okoro in the rotation is a joke, unless Okoro sets himself back by not signing before camp.

[jbk1234]

I'd be shocked if Strus isn't a starter simply because Allen and Mobley are going to start. It's why we traded for Strus. Mobley's development is a lot more important than Okoro's at this point.

[JujitsuFlip]

If he shows up at camp on day one you can make an argument that a point-of-attack defender with low volume and high efficiency is the best fit in the starting lineup, even if not the best player.

You can make an argument that bringing in both LeVert and Strus off the bench (for Okoro and one of the guards) keeps the playmaking on offense and defense at an even level throughout the game. Particularly if you want to run all-bench lineups like you typically need to do to run rotations of more than 10 guys like Atkinson has in the past. (Let Strus or LeVert finish games.)

But at the very least keep the edge over guys like Tyson, TJ, and Niang to be the #7 or #8 guy in the rotation.

Okoro isn't going to start. Strus already solidified himself as the starting SF. Atkinson is from the Kerr, MDA, and Bud coaching trees. Those guys value shooting, Okoro is allergic to shooting; not a fit.

Okoro could be a solid 3rd wing off the bench behind LeVert and either Wade/Niang.

Strus was the ordained starter by the last coach, and the better player. Maybe by Altman too. But Kenny isn't here to follow in JBB's footsteps. Ultimately Okoro with the starters was a better lineup in 22-23 than Strus with the starters last year.

Wade is clearly the backup 4 given we only have TT around, and Niang was worse in just about every way than Okoro both in the playoffs and regular season. Him ahead of Okoro in the rotation is a joke, unless Okoro sets himself back by not signing before camp.

You can pull all the advanced #s you want, a guy willing to shoot 7 three pointers per game is more valuable than a guy unwilling to do that, especially next to 2 non shooting bigs. Okoro being gifted the starter job went out the window after his 2nd season.

If goofball jb could figure that out, I'm confident Kenny knew that before he signed on the dotted line.

Is Wade the back-up 4? Idk that i would agree with that. Pretty sure it will probably be Niang. I'm fine with it being Wade but i just envision he will probably be playing more 3 than 4.

Again, Niang is more valuable to an offense than Okoro, because he's willing to shoot; regardless how trash he was for the 12 playoff games.

We signed a coach who values shooting and spacing. We didn't sign Lionel Hollins.

[toooskies]

Okoro isn't going to start. Strus already solidified himself as the starting SF. Atkinson is from the Kerr, MDA, and Bud coaching trees. Those guys value shooting, Okoro is allergic to shooting; not a fit.

Okoro could be a solid 3rd wing off the bench behind LeVert and either Wade/Niang.

Strus was the ordained starter by the last coach, and the better player. Maybe by Altman too. But Kenny isn't here to follow in JBB's footsteps. Ultimately Okoro with the starters was a better lineup in 22-23 than Strus with the starters last year.

Wade is clearly the backup 4 given we only have TT around, and Niang was worse in just about every way than Okoro both in the playoffs and regular season. Him ahead of Okoro in the rotation is a joke, unless Okoro sets himself back by not signing before camp.

You can pull all the advanced #s you want, a guy willing to shoot 7 three pointers per game is more valuable than a guy unwilling to do that, especially next to 2 non shooting bigs. Okoro being gifted the starter job went out the window after his 2nd season.

If goofball jb could figure that out, I'm confident Kenny knew that before he signed on the dotted line.

Is Wade the back-up 4? Idk that i would agree with that. Pretty sure it will probably be Niang. I'm fine with it being Wade but i just envision he will probably be playing more 3 than 4.

Again, Niang is more valuable to an offense than Okoro, because he's willing to shoot; regardless how trash he was for the 12 playoff games.

We signed a coach who values shooting and spacing. We didn't sign Lionel Hollins.

Is Max Strus taking shots away from Mitchell/Garland/Mobley/Allen better than him taking shots away from Caris LeVert? That's the question. Adding less efficient offensive capability to four capable offensive players is of minimal benefit. Adding a good point of attack defender to a lineup without one is a much bigger benefit to the lineup.

Coaches like Auerbach, Krzyzewski, Popovich, Kerr have brought one of their five best players off the bench on purpose to improve the team's overall fit. It's not a crazy idea.

[ijspeelman]

Strus was the ordained starter by the last coach, and the better player. Maybe by Altman too. But Kenny isn't here to follow in JBB's footsteps. Ultimately Okoro with the starters was a better lineup in 22-23 than Strus with the starters last year.

Wade is clearly the backup 4 given we only have TT around, and Niang was worse in just about every way than Okoro both in the playoffs and regular season. Him ahead of Okoro in the rotation is a joke, unless Okoro sets himself back by not signing before camp.

You can pull all the advanced #s you want, a guy willing to shoot 7 three pointers per game is more valuable than a guy unwilling to do that, especially next to 2 non shooting bigs. Okoro being gifted the starter job went out the window after his 2nd season.

If goofball jb could figure that out, I'm confident Kenny knew that before he signed on the dotted line.

Is Wade the back-up 4? Idk that i would agree with that. Pretty sure it will probably be Niang. I'm fine with it being Wade but i just envision he will probably be playing more 3 than 4.

Again, Niang is more valuable to an offense than Okoro, because he's willing to shoot; regardless how trash he was for the 12 playoff games.

We signed a coach who values shooting and spacing. We didn't sign Lionel Hollins.

Is Max Strus taking shots away from Mitchell/Garland/Mobley/Allen better than him taking shots away from Caris LeVert? That's the question. Adding less efficient offensive capability to four capable offensive players is of minimal benefit. Adding a good point of attack defender to a lineup without one is a much bigger benefit to the lineup.

Coaches like Auerbach, Krzyzewski, Popovich, Kerr have brought one of their five best players off the bench on purpose to improve the team's overall fit. It's not a crazy idea.

I think its less a problem of taking shots away from those guys and more likely synergy on the court together. The spacing should benefit those four over Okoro's current skills.

Lineup stats would indicate Okoro is better with the core four, but I am not entirely convinced. Last season, Okoro with those 4 only played 5 minutes together (according to nba.com), but did play 398 minutes in the season prior. In those around 400 minutes, the line-up is +6.8.

With Strus this season, they were +2.2 in 367 minutes. Would seem to indicate Okoro is the better fit. However, Okoro's minutes in 2022-23 were played with a much better Garland. LeVert in the same line-up in 2022-23 was +16.2 in 231 minutes.

To give a bit of a higher sample here is +/- for players playing with both Allen and Mobley last season

Okoro = -36 in 403 minutes
Strus = +24 in 677 minutes (though this probs is also benefited by playing half of those minutes with Garland and Mitchell as well)
LeVert = -39 in 363 minutes
Wade = -9 in 122

Ultimately, I want to trust Atkinson to find what to do either by the start of the season or with some experimenting before December.

[JujitsuFlip]

Strus was the ordained starter by the last coach, and the better player. Maybe by Altman too. But Kenny isn't here to follow in JBB's footsteps. Ultimately Okoro with the starters was a better lineup in 22-23 than Strus with the starters last year.

Wade is clearly the backup 4 given we only have TT around, and Niang was worse in just about every way than Okoro both in the playoffs and regular season. Him ahead of Okoro in the rotation is a joke, unless Okoro sets himself back by not signing before camp.

You can pull all the advanced #s you want, a guy willing to shoot 7 three pointers per game is more valuable than a guy unwilling to do that, especially next to 2 non shooting bigs. Okoro being gifted the starter job went out the window after his 2nd season.

If goofball jb could figure that out, I'm confident Kenny knew that before he signed on the dotted line.

Is Wade the back-up 4? Idk that i would agree with that. Pretty sure it will probably be Niang. I'm fine with it being Wade but i just envision he will probably be playing more 3 than 4.

Again, Niang is more valuable to an offense than Okoro, because he's willing to shoot; regardless how trash he was for the 12 playoff games.

We signed a coach who values shooting and spacing. We didn't sign Lionel Hollins.

Is Max Strus taking shots away from Mitchell/Garland/Mobley/Allen better than him taking shots away from Caris LeVert? That's the question. Adding less efficient offensive capability to four capable offensive players is of minimal benefit. Adding a good point of attack defender to a lineup without one is a much bigger benefit to the lineup.

Coaches like Auerbach, Krzyzewski, Popovich, Kerr have brought one of their five best players off the bench on purpose to improve the team's overall fit. It's not a crazy idea.

It's not about taking shots away, it's about 1. The willingness to shoot and 2. The space the threat of actually shooting unlocks the whole offense.

Also, Okoro is a very limited POA defender. If the guy could lock up anyone, he would be starting over someone, he's just not that. Guys bigger than him give him fits bc he's so little and guys faster than him give him fits because he's so blocky when he runs. The kind of player Okoro can lock up is VERY specific.

The best fit is Strus as a starter, what are you talking about? Also LeVert is a great 6th man.

I for real cannot wait until Okoro is no longer a Cav. The misguided love affair with this guy is unreal amongst Cavs fans.

[jbk1234]

The team's last playoff performances with Okoro starting, to say nothing of last March, really makes a path forward as a starter difficult to see. Okoro played a lot of minutes with one of Allen or Mobley off the floor and still was unable to make playoff-caliber teams pay for ignoring him. Before that, you could make the argument that starting two non-shooting bigs was unfair to a player like Okoro. But, none of the hoped-for improvement materialized with better spacing.

To the extent that he's better defensively than Strus, that margin isn't great enough to justify what you're giving up offensively.

As far as the depth chart, he's fine as the first guard/wing off the bench if the Cavs are rotating Mitchell and Garland. He can probably get some minutes ahead of Niang at PF in a small ball unit. LeVert has his own struggles against good defensive teams so I disagree he's a lock to be ahead of Okoro.

A lot is going to depend on Tyson though. If that young man can carry over his SL performance into the regular season, he's going to get real run.

[JonFromVA]

If he shows up at camp on day one you can make an argument that a point-of-attack defender with low volume and high efficiency is the best fit in the starting lineup, even if not the best player.

You can make an argument that bringing in both LeVert and Strus off the bench (for Okoro and one of the guards) keeps the playmaking on offense and defense at an even level throughout the game. Particularly if you want to run all-bench lineups like you typically need to do to run rotations of more than 10 guys like Atkinson has in the past. (Let Strus or LeVert finish games.)

But at the very least keep the edge over guys like Tyson, TJ, and Niang to be the #7 or #8 guy in the rotation.

Okoro isn't going to start. Strus already solidified himself as the starting SF. Atkinson is from the Kerr, MDA, and Bud coaching trees. Those guys value shooting, Okoro is allergic to shooting; not a fit.

Okoro could be a solid 3rd wing off the bench behind LeVert and either Wade/Niang.

Strus was the ordained starter by the last coach, and the better player. Maybe by Altman too. But Kenny isn't here to follow in JBB's footsteps. Ultimately Okoro with the starters was a better lineup in 22-23 than Strus with the starters last year.

Wade is clearly the backup 4 given we only have TT around, and Niang was worse in just about every way than Okoro both in the playoffs and regular season. Him ahead of Okoro in the rotation is a joke, unless Okoro sets himself back by not signing before camp.

And if I remember the data right, Strus was much better in other lineups. So, it's something that should be investigated by a coach who coaches with more than his gut.