Ingram for WCJ+Black

[orlando_joe]

this seems like magic make 3 holes to try and fill a hole that is not there...pretty easy pass

[zimpy27]

this seems like magic make 3 holes to try and fill a hole that is not there...pretty easy pass

This is a move towards improving their playoff 8 at the expense of their RS depth.

PG: Suggs (34) | Alvarado (14)
SG: Ingram (24) | KCP (20) | Alvarado (4)
SF: Wagner (36) | KCP (12)
PF: Paolo (36) | Ingram (12)
C : JI (30) | Goga (18)
Injury reserves: Cory, Harris, Howard, Mo

[vxmike]

I wonder if there is a three-way that makes sense:

Ingram > ???
WCJ + Black > NOP
??? > ORL

Some thoughts of player who could work as PART of a package:
Sexton
Anfernee Simons
Donte Divencenzo
MPJ
Devin Vassell (which is actually my favorite?)

Nobody wants Ingram with him wanting a max deal. Maybe if there’s a team with a competent but overpaid C they want to unload and are craving wing depth, but does this team exist?

[BlazersBroncos]

I am biased but I think if ORL struggles out the gate with scoring they should simply target Anfernee Simons who would cost less, and wont be due a gigantic deal. Also plays better off ball than BI which is a need w/ Paolo and Franz being ahead of both in any scenario in the pecking order.

Simons + filler guy for Cole + Jett + lower 25 FRP.

[Jody Smokz]

Simons is a dope fit in Orlando. Suggs/Simons/Franz/Paolo and any combo of Isaac/WCF can do some things.

I am biased but I think if ORL struggles out the gate with scoring they should simply target Anfernee Simons who would cost less, and wont be due a gigantic deal. Also plays better off ball than BI which is a need w/ Paolo and Franz being ahead of both in any scenario in the pecking order.

Simons + filler guy for Cole + Jett + lower 25 FRP.

[BlazersBroncos]

Simons is a dope fit in Orlando. Suggs/Simons/Franz/Paolo and any combo of Isaac/WCF can do some things.

I am biased but I think if ORL struggles out the gate with scoring they should simply target Anfernee Simons who would cost less, and wont be due a gigantic deal. Also plays better off ball than BI which is a need w/ Paolo and Franz being ahead of both in any scenario in the pecking order.

Simons + filler guy for Cole + Jett + lower 25 FRP.

He has warts, but his fit in ORL is pretty ideal and they could acquire him without impacting any of their core players.

I would assume that KCP is professional enough to take that 6th man role too FWIW.

G - Anfernee Simons / Jalen Suggs / Anthony Black / Corey Joseph
G - Jalen Suggs / Kentavious Caldwell-Pope / Anthony Black
F - Franz Wagner / Tristan da Silva / Gary Harris / Caleb Houstan
F - Paolo Banchero / Jonathan Isaac / Tristan da Silva / Franz Wagner
C - Wendell Carter JR / Mo Wagner / Goga Bitzade / Jonathan Isaac

Thats absolutely stacked even w/ the guys going out for Simons. And basically every player outside Simons is a plus on D.

[Residual-Heat]

I dont mind that trade, but Simons would need to accept a 6th man role IMO. KCP would still be the starter. They dont really want poor defenders in the starting line up, and the bench would be lacking some offense. The line ups would be more balanced with Simons as the 6th man. The issue is would Simons accept a 6th man role where he comes off the bench and will see a decrease in MPG? and do the Magic even want to pay 28 mill/yr for a 6th man?

[Walton1one]

Simons wants to win, he has been in the league for 7 years, I think he would accept a bench role going to a playoff team. He is best suited for a 6th man role IMO. Cole\Jett\25' 1st would be a fair return for him IMO.

[JRoy]

Do it.

[docholliday99]

Cole has averaged 14.2 ppg/4.7 rpg/ 4.1 apg as a starter with average or a bit below average defense, where Simons has averaged 21.6 ppg/ 3.0 rpg/ 4.8 apg with some....really poor defense. Not for the lack of effort but Simons has been rating down near the bottom of the league, if not absolute dead last, in defensive metrics since he became a rotation player - he would be really tough to hide defensively.
The Magic may have better results in the playoffs if they can get someone tough at the 5, it's pretty soft there when the game gets physical.

[BlazersBroncos]

Cole has averaged 14.2 ppg/4.7 rpg/ 4.1 apg as a starter with average or a bit below average defense, where Simons has averaged 21.6 ppg/ 3.0 rpg/ 4.8 apg with some....really poor defense. Not for the lack of effort but Simons has been rating down near the bottom of the league, if not absolute dead last, in defensive metrics since he became a rotation player - he would be really tough to hide defensively.
The Magic may have better results in the playoffs if they can get someone tough at the 5, it's pretty soft there when the game gets physical.

Simons will never be a great defender but Portland as a unit isnt helping him any. Cole for example has seen his defensive advanced metrics rise as ORL began to key on defensive players - its likely Simons moving to a team with such a stable of defensive talent would result in the same adjustment. Again, not saying he would be a better defender - just better hidden with so much defensive talent.

As for raw stats - Simons is clearly a more explosive scorer who, if allowed to concentrate on volume 3PT shooting, should be around 55-60% 3PTar for ORL IMO (He was 70 / 55 / 54 3PTar until last season when he fell to 48 due to being leaned on to be more than the player he actually is in PDX). I am not a Simons fan for Portland - but ORL is one of those destinations where he just fits as a designated 3PT bomber. He probably would be top 3-5 in the league in 3PT makes per game in ORL and I would argue with the defense less keyed in on him its likely that would come at 40%+ efficiency.

[Skybox]

Ingram should just NOT be mentioned in the same breath as ORL. It's true that ORL needs a boost to their offense...but a player who isn't an exceptional playmakers (for others too) AND a floor-spreading threat just isn't a fit...the contract expectation is substantially more than what ORL should be looking to spend for this role...CJ McCollum/Anfernee Simons/Tyus Jones all make much more sense fit-wise...without even getting into the crazy money Ingram thinks he will get.

any Ingram trade thread should start with "where will this guy fit AND make $45m+?"...certainly not ORL.

[Residual-Heat]

Cole has averaged 14.2 ppg/4.7 rpg/ 4.1 apg as a starter with average or a bit below average defense, where Simons has averaged 21.6 ppg/ 3.0 rpg/ 4.8 apg with some....really poor defense. Not for the lack of effort but Simons has been rating down near the bottom of the league, if not absolute dead last, in defensive metrics since he became a rotation player - he would be really tough to hide defensively.
The Magic may have better results in the playoffs if they can get someone tough at the 5, it's pretty soft there when the game gets physical.

Simons will never be a great defender but Portland as a unit isnt helping him any. Cole for example has seen his defensive advanced metrics rise as ORL began to key on defensive players - its likely Simons moving to a team with such a stable of defensive talent would result in the same adjustment. Again, not saying he would be a better defender - just better hidden with so much defensive talent.

As for raw stats - Simons is clearly a more explosive scorer who, if allowed to concentrate on volume 3PT shooting, should be around 55-60% 3PTar for ORL IMO (He was 70 / 55 / 54 3PTar until last season when he fell to 48 due to being leaned on to be more than the player he actually is in PDX). I am not a Simons fan for Portland - but ORL is one of those destinations where he just fits as a designated 3PT bomber. He probably would be top 3-5 in the league in 3PT makes per game in ORL and I would argue with the defense less keyed in on him its likely that would come at 40%+ efficiency.

Simons is clearly the better player overall. Cole isnt that much better on defense, where the defense will fall apart if the Magic replace Cole with Simons. With Black, KCP, Suggs I dont think it'll be a big issue. TBH though I really dont see the trade happening. I dont think the Magic are willing to pay a 6th man that type of money right now.

As for the center position, I think its fine. There's no need to make a move ATM. Mosley just needs to learn how and when to use Isaac, Goga, and WCJ more effectively. There are times when WCJ will have to sit for Goga and Isaac to take his place. There are other times where I felt Mosley could've given WCJ better scoring opportunities rather than just have him stand at the 3pt line.

[docholliday99]

Simons will never be a great defender but Portland as a unit isnt helping him any. Cole for example has seen his defensive advanced metrics rise as ORL began to key on defensive players - its likely Simons moving to a team with such a stable of defensive talent would result in the same adjustment. Again, not saying he would be a better defender - just better hidden with so much defensive talent.

As for raw stats - Simons is clearly a more explosive scorer who, if allowed to concentrate on volume 3PT shooting, should be around 55-60% 3PTar for ORL IMO (He was 70 / 55 / 54 3PTar until last season when he fell to 48 due to being leaned on to be more than the player he actually is in PDX). I am not a Simons fan for Portland - but ORL is one of those destinations where he just fits as a designated 3PT bomber. He probably would be top 3-5 in the league in 3PT makes per game in ORL and I would argue with the defense less keyed in on him its likely that would come at 40%+ efficiency

Defensively, I'm just not a fan of Simons' game on that end, not for lack of effort, he just can't defend well. I'm actually not quite sure how he rates at the bottom of the entire league in Def EPM and other advanced defensive metrics over the past few years, but he certainly finds a way, and that's despite 6 years in the league and several roster combinations. He just gives far more back on defense than what was gained on offense when he's on the floor- despite his dynamic ability to score. He also needs a high usage rate to score at the level he does, bring that usage rate down, he's even worse. I think the Magic can do far better with their assets.

One thing about Cole, he may be a streaky shooter, but he impacts winning more than Simons does - even Cole's WS is 50% higher than Simons. You could make an argument that Orlando could hide Simons on the defensive end, but why put that pressure on their centers, when they're not the greatest on that end when things get physical, especially in the playoffs?

Personally, I think the Magic did the right thing, they're so strong at the POA and their system, bringing in KCP allows them to stay tall and long, most likely better defensively than last year (which is a scary thought), and KCP has been shooting about 40% from 3 over the past 5 years. I think the player to keep an eye on is Turner, who I keep reading won't re-up and would like to be somewhere else (probably the Carlisle effect) - and is an UFA at the end of this season. Maybe WCJ, Howard, '25 Denver frp and have a line of Suggs, KCP, Wagner, Banchero, Turner - which I love far more than any line with Simons in it. I'm fairly certainly Allen will be on the move as well, when he becomes eligible right before the deadline, he would be a fit also (though I like the 5 out potential with Turner) - the Cavs will probably want the farm for him though.

[BlazersBroncos]

Personally, I think the Magic did the right thing, they're so strong at the POA and their system, bringing in KCP allows them to stay tall and long, most likely better defensively than last year (which is a scary thought), and KCP has been shooting about 40% from 3 over the past 5 years. I think the player to keep an eye on is Turner, who I keep reading won't re-up and would like to be somewhere else (probably the Carlisle effect) - and is an UFA at the end of this season. Maybe WCJ, Howard, '25 Denver frp and have a line of Suggs, KCP, Wagner, Banchero, Turner - which I love far more than any line with Simons in it. I'm fairly certainly Allen will be on the move as well, when he becomes eligible right before the deadline, he would be a fit also (though I like the 5 out potential with Turner) - the Cavs will probably want the farm for him though.

I totally agree that Turner and Allen are better targets - but I think they cost considerably more than Simons. I cant see WCJ + Howard + 25 DEN FRP pulling either. I think Black AND the ORL 25 FRP are likely needed as well.

I also dont see IND being interested in moving Turner - they want to win. And if CLE moves Allen they wont want a pick/prospect package but a starting caliber forward - so it would have to be a 3-way.

I just see the cost for Simons being cheap enough that ORL could take it (Cole + Howard + DEN FRP) and even flip him again later as the salary ballast in a larger deal (Simons + WCJ + Black + future FRP for ???).

[orlando_joe]

Personally, I think the Magic did the right thing, they're so strong at the POA and their system, bringing in KCP allows them to stay tall and long, most likely better defensively than last year (which is a scary thought), and KCP has been shooting about 40% from 3 over the past 5 years. I think the player to keep an eye on is Turner, who I keep reading won't re-up and would like to be somewhere else (probably the Carlisle effect) - and is an UFA at the end of this season. Maybe WCJ, Howard, '25 Denver frp and have a line of Suggs, KCP, Wagner, Banchero, Turner - which I love far more than any line with Simons in it. I'm fairly certainly Allen will be on the move as well, when he becomes eligible right before the deadline, he would be a fit also (though I like the 5 out potential with Turner) - the Cavs will probably want the farm for him though.

I totally agree that Turner and Allen are better targets - but I think they cost considerably more than Simons. I cant see WCJ + Howard + 25 DEN FRP pulling either. I think Black AND the ORL 25 FRP are likely needed as well.

I also dont see IND being interested in moving Turner - they want to win. And if CLE moves Allen they wont want a pick/prospect package but a starting caliber forward - so it would have to be a 3-way.

I just see the cost for Simons being cheap enough that ORL could take it (Cole + Howard + DEN FRP) and even flip him again later as the salary ballast in a larger deal (Simons + WCJ + Black + future FRP for ???).

if magic wanted simons it would have happened over summer ...and i do not think simons has that value you think