Did the greatness of Celtics role players devalued Tatum?

[ITYSL]

No, I think he's properly valued. Most reasonable fans put him in that second tier of stars behind Jokic, Giannis, and maybe Luka.

[165bows]

Maybe. Saying swap in any other top 15 guy and the Celtics still win doesn’t seem unreasonable.
The one thing that I would say is that Tatums ability to guard every position effectively on defense, beast rebounds and do it all on offense is pretty unique. Not many guys with the Combo of size, length, handles, shooting, and defensive chops exist in the league. So I don’t know about that statement even though I don’t strongly disagree.
Replace Tatum with a lead guard like Brunson, Edwards, Haliburton, Curry, Booker, Mitchell, etc…I don’t think they are as good, and those guys take minutes from White and JRue. You loose defense and rebounding. Do they still win? Maybe, but I don’t think they are as good. Replace him Lebron, Giannis, Jokic, Doncic, SGA…they are probably just as good, maybe better. Replace him with Paul George or Durrant they are probably equivalent. I think anyone else they don’t win it. Kawhi, Butler and Embiid are not healthy enough.
The Cs are stacked though, Tatum is a clear top 10 player, flirting with top 5. Brown is top 20, White is top 30, Prozingas and Holiday are top 50, and Horford is top 100. Tatum knows how to be effective distributing the ball, running the offense and playing solid team D. Its rarer than you think.

Horford was considered 100% washed before coming back to play with Tatum.

KP was totally irrelevant, zero people (outside of me) were interested in his FA.

Jrue was locked in as an inefficient can’t score defense guy in the playoffs.

White was a solid glue guy JAG.

There was plenty of heated talk from Boston fans in our board that didn’t think Brown was even an all star.

I’m just in the no apologies camp that Tatum is totally under rated around here and the idea that he wasn’t absolutely instrumental in this title is hogwash.

I mean Banchero is this stuff serious.

Edit - Even Doncic, dude just tanked a whole season two years ago. Tatum and some random scrubs off the Boston bench has been an elite +\- unit forever. Sorry I just don’t see it. I’ll give whoever Jokic and Giannis, everyone else sounds nice but there isn’t someone else in some other clear tier above.

Mean of us thought Jrue was better than Dame when that deal went down. I think you're taking the worst view of everyone here vs the reality....

Says more about Lillard at this stage imo. Anyways I understand there is a range of opinions that seems pretty banal.

Check the record though Horford was considered cooked and was voted 9th worst contract in the league on this very. Site by these posters, salary dumped onto two different teams until he came back to become great again at almost 40.

You didn’t want to touch that though lol.

[dhsilv2]

Horford was considered 100% washed before coming back to play with Tatum.

KP was totally irrelevant, zero people (outside of me) were interested in his FA.

Jrue was locked in as an inefficient can’t score defense guy in the playoffs.

White was a solid glue guy JAG.

There was plenty of heated talk from Boston fans in our board that didn’t think Brown was even an all star.

I’m just in the no apologies camp that Tatum is totally under rated around here and the idea that he wasn’t absolutely instrumental in this title is hogwash.

I mean Banchero is this stuff serious.

Edit - Even Doncic, dude just tanked a whole season two years ago. Tatum and some random scrubs off the Boston bench has been an elite +\- unit forever. Sorry I just don’t see it. I’ll give whoever Jokic and Giannis, everyone else sounds nice but there isn’t someone else in some other clear tier above.

Mean of us thought Jrue was better than Dame when that deal went down. I think you're taking the worst view of everyone here vs the reality....

Jrue was not a good shooter based his past playoff runs but pretty much all of them really stepped up in the finals that Tatum was in the bottom 8 in ORTG AND TS%

Jrue wasn't seen as a star for his shooting.

[dhsilv2]

Horford was considered 100% washed before coming back to play with Tatum.

KP was totally irrelevant, zero people (outside of me) were interested in his FA.

Jrue was locked in as an inefficient can’t score defense guy in the playoffs.

White was a solid glue guy JAG.

There was plenty of heated talk from Boston fans in our board that didn’t think Brown was even an all star.

I’m just in the no apologies camp that Tatum is totally under rated around here and the idea that he wasn’t absolutely instrumental in this title is hogwash.

I mean Banchero is this stuff serious.

Edit - Even Doncic, dude just tanked a whole season two years ago. Tatum and some random scrubs off the Boston bench has been an elite +\- unit forever. Sorry I just don’t see it. I’ll give whoever Jokic and Giannis, everyone else sounds nice but there isn’t someone else in some other clear tier above.

Mean of us thought Jrue was better than Dame when that deal went down. I think you're taking the worst view of everyone here vs the reality....

Says more about Lillard at this stage imo. Anyways I understand there is a range of opinions that seems pretty banal.

Check the record though Horford was considered cooked and was voted 9th worst contract in the league on this very. Site by these posters, salary dumped onto two different teams until he came back to become great again at almost 40.

You didn’t want to touch that though lol.

Well Al at 26 million is a bad deal. Last year at 10, he was a great value. He's their mostly backup big during the season and moved into their playoff starter. But I'm not really sure what to do with that one. Al's aging well and almost missed the entire 2021 season so that's a concern.

[165bows]

Mean of us thought Jrue was better than Dame when that deal went down. I think you're taking the worst view of everyone here vs the reality....

Says more about Lillard at this stage imo. Anyways I understand there is a range of opinions that seems pretty banal.

Check the record though Horford was considered cooked and was voted 9th worst contract in the league on this very. Site by these posters, salary dumped onto two different teams until he came back to become great again at almost 40.

You didn’t want to touch that though lol.

Well Al at 26 million is a bad deal. Last year at 10, he was a great value. He's their mostly backup big during the season and moved into their playoff starter. But I'm not really sure what to do with that one. Al's aging well and almost missed the entire 2021 season so that's a concern.

No he was a great deal at that number as a starter on a finals team in ‘22 (Celtics were fourth in the league in total salaries that season). He was terrible two years before that at that number when he played on two different teams with great players. Along with having his worst shooting efficiency seasons by far as well.

In fact his shooting efficiency playing with two different stints with Tatum is way above league average on the whole while his three non-Tatum seasons in his 30s are deeply below average.

But somehow he became great again back in Boston.

[Homerclease]

Read on Twitter

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Tatum is the super team. This is the first year in his career that they didn’t play like a lottery team with him on the bench, and they were still much, much better with him in the lineup

[Wingy]

Zinger and Jrue aren’t role players.

[JonFromVA]

Read on Twitter

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Tatum is the super team. This is the first year in his career that they didn’t play like a lottery team with him on the bench, and they were still much, much better with him in the lineup

That's not what the On-Off numbers say. They're really wonky for a team with a supposed superstar that makes his teammates better with the attention he draws and everything else. The Celtics were 1.2pp100 worse with him on the floor than off according to BBR, that improved in the playoffs, but guys like Horford and Holliday were well ahead of him.

It's easy to dismiss because the OnCourt numbers were fantastic, in fact during the regular season the Celtics were still +4.4 when Lamar Stevens was on the floor (worst on the team).

I think it tells us something about the relative efficiency of trying to run everything through your best player and letting him carry your team .vs. having a whole team approach that works for everyone and your best player buying in to it.

Not really a new lesson, but it's easy to pretend it's not necessary when a couple of stars can carry a team far.

[jbk1234]

Presently, I think the guy who was most devalued was Porzingis. They didn't need him, which was a good thing as he was injured again, and he makes $30M per.

Now that could change if Horford loses a step, or they get upset next postseason because a team like the Sixers or Cavs are able to upset them playing through their bigs, but I really think they can still contend and shave $20M per by swapping Porzingis for a $10M center.

[165bows]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=2r3K1qCL2UmIu9zb8OVdDw

Tatum is the super team. This is the first year in his career that they didn’t play like a lottery team with him on the bench, and they were still much, much better with him in the lineup

That's not what the On-Off numbers say. They're really wonky for a team with a supposed superstar that makes his teammates better with the attention he draws and everything else. The Celtics were 1.2pp100 worse with him on the floor than off according to BBR, that improved in the playoffs, but guys like Horford and Holliday were well ahead of him.

It's easy to dismiss because the OnCourt numbers were fantastic, in fact during the regular season the Celtics were still +4.4 when Lamar Stevens was on the floor (worst on the team).

I think it tells us something about the relative efficiency of trying to run everything through your best player and letting him carry your team .vs. having a whole team approach that works for everyone and your best player buying in to it.

Not really a new lesson, but it's easy to pretend it's not necessary when a couple of stars can carry a team far.

Bro maybe re-read the actual post.

[ITYSL]

No he was a great deal at that number as a starter on a finals team in ‘22 (Celtics were fourth in the league in total salaries that season). He was terrible two years before that at that number when he played on two different teams with great players. Along with having his worst shooting efficiency seasons by far as well.

In fact his shooting efficiency playing with two different stints with Tatum is way above league average on the whole while his three non-Tatum seasons in his 30s are deeply below average.

But somehow he became great again back in Boston.

I agree with you on these points.

I tend to think that the loudest people on Tatum-related threads just have hate boners for him and/or the Celtics. Oftentimes the board tends to get things right but people with reasonable opinions don't get amplified. This board voted Tatum to be the 6th best player in the league, for example. I don't think that's unreasonable. I also think that if the GB grouped players in tiers, most would put Tatum in that 2nd tier, with the top tier reserved for people like Jokic, Giannis and Luka.

[165bows]

No he was a great deal at that number as a starter on a finals team in ‘22 (Celtics were fourth in the league in total salaries that season). He was terrible two years before that at that number when he played on two different teams with great players. Along with having his worst shooting efficiency seasons by far as well.

In fact his shooting efficiency playing with two different stints with Tatum is way above league average on the whole while his three non-Tatum seasons in his 30s are deeply below average.

But somehow he became great again back in Boston.

I agree with you on these points.

I tend to think that the loudest people on Tatum-related threads just have hate boners for him and/or the Celtics. Oftentimes the board tends to get things right but people with reasonable opinions don't get amplified. This board voted Tatum to be the 6th best player in the league, for example. I don't think that's unreasonable. I also think that if the GB grouped players in tiers, most would put Tatum in that 2nd tier, with the top tier reserved for people like Jokic, Giannis and Luka.

Yeah I agree with the overall sentiment there, like I said above the top tier for me personally is Jokic/Giannis.

Other issue with it is people want to put a bunch of has beens in the second tier. If you haven’t won a playoff series per year over several years you are just a nice player at that point.

[tamaraw08]

Mean of us thought Jrue was better than Dame when that deal went down. I think you're taking the worst view of everyone here vs the reality....

Jrue was not a good shooter based his past playoff runs but pretty much all of them really stepped up in the finals that Tatum was in the bottom 8 in ORTG AND TS%

Jrue wasn't seen as a star for his shooting.

yes, he is more known as a great defender and when he averaged 60TS% with another very good defender like White, who shot 59TS%, their team becomes very difficult to beat esp if you have Brown and Horford who also played good defense.

[165bows]

Jrue was not a good shooter based his past playoff runs but pretty much all of them really stepped up in the finals that Tatum was in the bottom 8 in ORTG AND TS%

Jrue wasn't seen as a star for his shooting.

yes, he is more known as a great defender and when he averaged 60TS% with another very good defender like White, who shot 59TS%, their team becomes very difficult to beat esp if you have Brown and Horford who also played good defense.

Right that’s the entire rebuttal of the OP argument - none of these guys were doing these things without Tatum.

Horford we have a before and after even.

Plus add in guys like Grant Williams who went from 8 figure guy to toxic salary dump faster than Ja Morant pulls a pistol.

[tamaraw08]

Jrue wasn't seen as a star for his shooting.

yes, he is more known as a great defender and when he averaged 60TS% with another very good defender like White, who shot 59TS%, their team becomes very difficult to beat esp if you have Brown and Horford who also played good defense.

Right that’s the entire rebuttal of the OP argument - none of these guys were doing these things without Tatum.

Horford we have a before and after even.

Plus add in guys like Grant Williams who went from 8 figure guy to toxic salary dump faster than Ja Morant pulls a pistol.

true but what happened to Tatum’s teammates while in Boston, the past 5 years in the playoffs before Jrue arrived?
What happened next o Jason against Golden State and Miami?

[165bows]

yes, he is more known as a great defender and when he averaged 60TS% with another very good defender like White, who shot 59TS%, their team becomes very difficult to beat esp if you have Brown and Horford who also played good defense.

Right that’s the entire rebuttal of the OP argument - none of these guys were doing these things without Tatum.

Horford we have a before and after even.

Plus add in guys like Grant Williams who went from 8 figure guy to toxic salary dump faster than Ja Morant pulls a pistol.

true but what happened to Tatum’s teammates while in Boston, the past 5 years in the playoffs before Jrue arrived?
What happened next o Jason against Golden State and Miami?

They won more playoff games than other team?

[itrsteve]

yes, he is more known as a great defender and when he averaged 60TS% with another very good defender like White, who shot 59TS%, their team becomes very difficult to beat esp if you have Brown and Horford who also played good defense.

Right that’s the entire rebuttal of the OP argument - none of these guys were doing these things without Tatum.

Horford we have a before and after even.

Plus add in guys like Grant Williams who went from 8 figure guy to toxic salary dump faster than Ja Morant pulls a pistol.

true but what happened to Tatum’s teammates while in Boston, the past 5 years in the playoffs before Jrue arrived?
What happened next o Jason against Golden State and Miami?

Winning is hard and it takes a team to do it.

If Luka was as transcendent as many pitch him to be then Dallas would have looked like they belonged in the finals.

[dhsilv2]

Says more about Lillard at this stage imo. Anyways I understand there is a range of opinions that seems pretty banal.

Check the record though Horford was considered cooked and was voted 9th worst contract in the league on this very. Site by these posters, salary dumped onto two different teams until he came back to become great again at almost 40.

You didn’t want to touch that though lol.

Well Al at 26 million is a bad deal. Last year at 10, he was a great value. He's their mostly backup big during the season and moved into their playoff starter. But I'm not really sure what to do with that one. Al's aging well and almost missed the entire 2021 season so that's a concern.

No he was a great deal at that number as a starter on a finals team in ‘22 (Celtics were fourth in the league in total salaries that season). He was terrible two years before that at that number when he played on two different teams with great players. Along with having his worst shooting efficiency seasons by far as well.

In fact his shooting efficiency playing with two different stints with Tatum is way above league average on the whole while his three non-Tatum seasons in his 30s are deeply below average.

But somehow he became great again back in Boston.

I don't know that Al's shooting numbers are even relevant to his impact in all fairness.

But otherwise you're talking about 2020...where he made no sense on that team. That was not only the covid year, but that was Ben Simmons still on Philly with Embiid. And even then his stats were still decent. Then in 2021 his stats were fine. Higher PER and about the same BPM as this year for that matter. He was hurt and played 28 games. Then he went back to Boston.

I don't really see a story here beyond he was over paid slightly on his last deal and he made ZERO sense in Philly where they had Ben Simmons and Embiid. And I don't see what you could even get out of OKC...but his stats look fine. It was just 28 games.

[itrsteve]

I don't really see a story here beyond he was over paid slightly on his last deal and he made ZERO sense in Philly where they had Ben Simmons and Embiid. And I don't see what you could even get out of OKC...but his stats look fine. It was just 28 games.

Grabbing Horford in free agency was simply to get him off Boston. Al has always been rather effective against Embiid, it was a worthy chess move for Philly given that Boston has been a hurdle in the Embiid era.

[dhsilv2]

Jrue was not a good shooter based his past playoff runs but pretty much all of them really stepped up in the finals that Tatum was in the bottom 8 in ORTG AND TS%

Jrue wasn't seen as a star for his shooting.

yes, he is more known as a great defender and when he averaged 60TS% with another very good defender like White, who shot 59TS%, their team becomes very difficult to beat esp if you have Brown and Horford who also played good defense.

I mean, yeah everyone's hard to beat when your 4th leading scorer is shooting really well along with your best guys doing average to well too. But the fact he gave them an efficient 13 vs say an inefficient 11 isn't really a difference maker when you're talking about the 4th guy in terms of scoring. Mind you, I'm totally cool if you want to give him some love for game 2 vs dallas or game 1 vs Indy and say that he was the breaking point for those teams in those games. But they were still winning in games he was like 4-10 or 1-5.