OT: Clinton or Bush?

[Luv those Knicks]

Well, you did call them a “collection of outliers”, and followed that up with calling it an “attempt to push disinformation”. That’s dismissive and false.

It was a funny meme but mostly true. Some of the things like you mentioned (Ruby Ridge) aren’t the best examples, but I mentioned there are so many more (including things like Operation Chaos, Co Intel Pro, Operation Midnight Climax, even forcing companies to poison alcohol during prohibition to prevent consumption, etc).

You asked for recent examples and I listed some (Wiki Leaks, Snowden/NSA spying, Twitter Files, Zuckerberg admitting to forced Facebook censorship, etc). Also from that list, there are current things like blocking the UAPDA, NDAA being allowed to arrest and detain citizens without due process, USA Freedom Act is alive still (just another version of the Patriot Act). They’re still not releasing JFK docs. But even things like The Bilderberg Group and Bohemian Grove are currently happening with no transparency. I also told you about the National Endowment for Democracy and that since the 80’s they’ve been able to “assume some former activities for the CIA”-Wiki.

It’s all there and there’s so much more past and present. When you break down each and every one of those things, and ask yourself, what’s the common theme here? You realize quite quickly that money, power, and control at any expense are at the root and that’s been the tale as old as time with all governments/rulers. That’s why I don’t trust them. Absolute power corrupts…

This is what I actually said:

"If you're going to convince people that the lying hasn't stopped and that it's an ongoing pattern, then an example in the last few years would be very helpful. The most recent example would be best.

Otherwise, you're just posting a collection of outliers. This is the difference between a legitimate argument and an attempt to push disinformation."

Anyway . . . does the government tell some lies, certainly. Is it all lies? No. It's not all lies, well, maybe Fox News is all lies and disinformation, but the government isn't fox news.

Absolute Power corrupts but if you think the US government has absolute power, I have a bridge to sell you. Trump couldn't even build his wall, well, he built some of it. He couldn't steal the election (though he tried). Obama couldn't pass the healthcare system he wanted. Where is this absolute power you speak of?

Zuckerberg was required to address bots and eliminate fascism and Russian propagandists. That's a GOOD THING, not censorship. Or, if you like, it's GOOD censorship.

Unless your argument is that there's some shady stuff going on, then I have a hard time agreeing with you. There is some shady stuff going on, but it's not absolute power and it's not all lies from up high.

[Clyde_Style]

Well, you did call them a “collection of outliers”, and followed that up with calling it an “attempt to push disinformation”. That’s dismissive and false.

It was a funny meme but mostly true. Some of the things like you mentioned (Ruby Ridge) aren’t the best examples, but I mentioned there are so many more (including things like Operation Chaos, Co Intel Pro, Operation Midnight Climax, even forcing companies to poison alcohol during prohibition to prevent consumption, etc).

You asked for recent examples and I listed some (Wiki Leaks, Snowden/NSA spying, Twitter Files, Zuckerberg admitting to forced Facebook censorship, etc). Also from that list, there are current things like blocking the UAPDA, NDAA being allowed to arrest and detain citizens without due process, USA Freedom Act is alive still (just another version of the Patriot Act). They’re still not releasing JFK docs. But even things like The Bilderberg Group and Bohemian Grove are currently happening with no transparency. I also told you about the National Endowment for Democracy and that since the 80’s they’ve been able to “assume some former activities for the CIA”-Wiki.

It’s all there and there’s so much more past and present. When you break down each and every one of those things, and ask yourself, what’s the common theme here? You realize quite quickly that money, power, and control at any expense are at the root and that’s been the tale as old as time with all governments/rulers. That’s why I don’t trust them. Absolute power corrupts…

This is what I actually said:

"If you're going to convince people that the lying hasn't stopped and that it's an ongoing pattern, then an example in the last few years would be very helpful. The most recent example would be best.

Otherwise, you're just posting a collection of outliers. This is the difference between a legitimate argument and an attempt to push disinformation."

Anyway . . . does the government tell some lies, certainly. Is it all lies? No. It's not all lies, well, maybe Fox News is all lies and disinformation, but the government isn't fox news.

Absolute Power corrupts but if you think the US government has absolute power, I have a bridge to sell you. Trump couldn't even build his wall, well, he built some of it. He couldn't steal the election (though he tried). Obama couldn't pass the healthcare system he wanted. Where is this absolute power you speak of?

Zuckerberg was required to address bots and eliminate fascism and Russian propagandists. That's a GOOD THING, not censorship. Or, if you like, it's GOOD censorship.

Unless your argument is that there's some shady stuff going on, then I have a hard time agreeing with you. There is some shady stuff going on, but it's not absolute power and it's not all lies from up high.

When a person says all politicians are corrupt therefore you cannot say one is better than the other you know they have no critical thinking skills.

The greatest feat of the right wing was to program a significant chunk of the population to believe everyone is rotten. The majority of those who drink that koolaid end up voting Republican anyway while talking out the other side of their mouth.

This is the lie cemented in the beating heart of the Tea Party and later Q Anon and MAGA.

The fait accompli was programming these people into feeling like they are the oppressed with Exhibit A being the offense they take whenever their lies are exposed. They are conditioned to counter truthfulness with anger and more lies which sends them spinning off into their conspiratorial fantasy worlds. Arguing with a MAGA merely reinforces their psychology as they are programmed to double down on anything perceived as an attack on their illogic. Disagreeing with them just solidifies their conviction they are rational.

[Luv those Knicks]

When a person says all politicians are corrupt therefore you cannot say one is better than the other you know they have no critical thinking skills.

The greatest feat of the right wing was to program a significant chunk of the population to believe everyone is rotten. The majority of those who drink that koolaid end up voting Republican anyway while talking out the other side of their mouth.

This is the lie cemented in the beating heart of the Tea Party and later Q Anon and MAGA.

The fait accompli was programming these people into feeling like they are the oppressed with Exhibit A being the offense they take whenever their lies are exposed. They are conditioned to counter truthfulness with anger and more lies which sends them spinning off into their conspiratorial fantasy worlds. Arguing with a MAGA merely reinforces their psychology as they programmed to double down on anything perceived as an attack on their illogic.

I went back and read Spree's original post, and it wasn't as bad as I initially thought it was. It seemed out of place, and not relevant to the thread, but certainly there are some lies going on in government as we speak, er, type. And a list of lies proves that sometimes government lies. But who didn't know that? And what was his goal? He posted after the question about how the shooter knew Trump would be at that golf course. The FBI has said they're looking into it. It could be an informant. It could have simply been that he observed Trump for a while and worked out his schedule, but the implication "it's government" . . . seemed silly.

Like ultra-high powered government officials would decide to "work with this crazy person" and tell him where Trump will be so he can wait 12 hours in a golf course shrubbery and maybe get a shot off. As Tony Stark would say "not a great plan"

Watch on YouTube

;t=2s

- - -

The interesting thing about the tea party is that it started under W. Bush, as outrage to the bailouts and thinking that government money shouldn't be spent that way. If the banks had actually failed, that would have been worse, and I don't think W had much choice and he can be faulted for many things, but not the bailout. But it became an anti-Obama far right organization once Obama took office. That was by design a lot of it. Rich powerful people on the far right usurped it and re-directed its message from focusing on spending, to anti democrat.

The far right tells way too many lies, but if they told the truth, they wouldn't have as many voters behind them. It sucks, but I'm not sure what can be done about that. Other than maybe education.

[Capn'O]

Again, if the United States Government were to try to off somebody they'd use Turkiye Shooter, not RamboLARP Moonbow.

[spree8]

Well, you did call them a “collection of outliers”, and followed that up with calling it an “attempt to push disinformation”. That’s dismissive and false.

It was a funny meme but mostly true. Some of the things like you mentioned (Ruby Ridge) aren’t the best examples, but I mentioned there are so many more (including things like Operation Chaos, Co Intel Pro, Operation Midnight Climax, even forcing companies to poison alcohol during prohibition to prevent consumption, etc).

You asked for recent examples and I listed some (Wiki Leaks, Snowden/NSA spying, Twitter Files, Zuckerberg admitting to forced Facebook censorship, etc). Also from that list, there are current things like blocking the UAPDA, NDAA being allowed to arrest and detain citizens without due process, USA Freedom Act is alive still (just another version of the Patriot Act). They’re still not releasing JFK docs. But even things like The Bilderberg Group and Bohemian Grove are currently happening with no transparency. I also told you about the National Endowment for Democracy and that since the 80’s they’ve been able to “assume some former activities for the CIA”-Wiki.

It’s all there and there’s so much more past and present. When you break down each and every one of those things, and ask yourself, what’s the common theme here? You realize quite quickly that money, power, and control at any expense are at the root and that’s been the tale as old as time with all governments/rulers. That’s why I don’t trust them. Absolute power corrupts…

This is what I actually said:

"If you're going to convince people that the lying hasn't stopped and that it's an ongoing pattern, then an example in the last few years would be very helpful. The most recent example would be best.

Otherwise, you're just posting a collection of outliers. This is the difference between a legitimate argument and an attempt to push disinformation."

Anyway . . . does the government tell some lies, certainly. Is it all lies? No. It's not all lies, well, maybe Fox News is all lies and disinformation, but the government isn't fox news.

Absolute Power corrupts but if you think the US government has absolute power, I have a bridge to sell you. Trump couldn't even build his wall, well, he built some of it. He couldn't steal the election (though he tried). Obama couldn't pass the healthcare system he wanted. Where is this absolute power you speak of?

Zuckerberg was required to address bots and eliminate fascism and Russian propagandists. That's a GOOD THING, not censorship. Or, if you like, it's GOOD censorship.

Unless your argument is that there's some shady stuff going on, then I have a hard time agreeing with you. There is some shady stuff going on, but it's not absolute power and it's not all lies from up high.

The problem I’ve found with bringing up these things with people is that it challenges their world view and reality. Therefore, they brush it off and call you crazy as a defense mechanism.

“Some shady stuff” sums up things like plans to stage fake terrorist attacks in the USA on its own citizens to gain public support for war against Cuba including civilian airline attacks. Thankfully JFK shot that down and afterwards got rid of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs who proposed Operation Northwoods.

“Shady stuff” is illegally drugging regular average guys with LSD at brothels for experiments, or illegally keeping all types of average citizens against their will at legitimate hospitals and performing torture tests on them with massive doses of LSD and mind control techniques while they’re there simply for depression or leg pain. That ruined a lot of people’s lives, completely, and some died (MK Ultra/Operation Midnight Climax).

Guess bringing Nazi’s into the scientific community is just “shady” too. Operation Paperclip brought people into NASA such as von Braun who was SS and allowed concentration camp prisoner labor on his previous rocket program, in addition to murder. Would’ve never went to the moon without him tho so it’s all good right?

Contras/CIA/Crack epidemic in the USA no issue?

Also no biggie to spy on and infiltrate civilian anti-war and political activist groups who they felt were subversive… who was literally everybody including MLK, Panthers, Nation of Islam, Hispanic rights groups, Anti-Vietnam war groups, Students for a Democratic Society etc. (Co Intel Pro & Chaos).

That’s just the tip of the iceberg. No biggie, government just told some little white lies tho.

[spree8]

When a person says all politicians are corrupt therefore you cannot say one is better than the other you know they have no critical thinking skills.

The greatest feat of the right wing was to program a significant chunk of the population to believe everyone is rotten. The majority of those who drink that koolaid end up voting Republican anyway while talking out the other side of their mouth.

This is the lie cemented in the beating heart of the Tea Party and later Q Anon and MAGA.

The fait accompli was programming these people into feeling like they are the oppressed with Exhibit A being the offense they take whenever their lies are exposed. They are conditioned to counter truthfulness with anger and more lies which sends them spinning off into their conspiratorial fantasy worlds. Arguing with a MAGA merely reinforces their psychology as they programmed to double down on anything perceived as an attack on their illogic.

I went back and read Spree's original post, and it wasn't as bad as I initially thought it was. It seemed out of place, and not relevant to the thread, but certainly there are some lies going on in government as we speak, er, type. And a list of lies proves that sometimes government lies. But who didn't know that? And what was his goal? He posted after the question about how the shooter knew Trump would be at that golf course. The FBI has said they're looking into it. It could be an informant. It could have simply been that he observed Trump for a while and worked out his schedule, but the implication "it's government" . . . seemed silly.

Like ultra-high powered government officials would decide to "work with this crazy person" and tell him where Trump will be so he can wait 12 hours in a golf course shrubbery and maybe get a shot off. As Tony Stark would say "not a great plan"

Watch on YouTube

;t=2s

- - -

The interesting thing about the tea party is that it started under W. Bush, as outrage to the bailouts and thinking that government money shouldn't be spent that way. If the banks had actually failed, that would have been worse, and I don't think W had much choice and he can be faulted for many things, but not the bailout. But it became an anti-Obama far right organization once Obama took office. That was by design a lot of it. Rich powerful people on the far right usurped it and re-directed its message from focusing on spending, to anti democrat.

The far right tells way too many lies, but if they told the truth, they wouldn't have as many voters behind them. It sucks, but I'm not sure what can be done about that. Other than maybe education.

No I posted the meme in direct response to buzz’s “Deep State” mention. I don’t even know much about this shooter situation at all yet, but like I said was just having fun with it until you responded.

Clyde tho… my goodness, this is a pattern I’m noticing. Anybody who says anything against government is MAGA or Q Anon. It’s amazing. You’re denying historical facts for some reason. I’m not a MAGA tho, just trying to wake people up to the real boogeymen. I thought I was a liberal at one point, but boy have things changed..

[Clyde_Style]

Again, if the United States Government were to try to off somebody they'd use Turkiye Shooter, not RamboLARP Moonbow.

While SCOTUS is already deeply corrupted by a fascist agenda with their decision to make POTUS above the law which was the ultimate FU to American citizens, there are actual patriots inside government and military who stand behind democratic processes.

Trump has no friends among those who support democracy. And those are the people in our government and military who would not want to off him.

However, they do seek to put him out to pasture via free and fair elections to show that traitorous convicted felon rapists will be shown the door by the citizenry, not an assassin.

Having him rubbed out would negate that message.

[Clyde_Style]

When a person says all politicians are corrupt therefore you cannot say one is better than the other you know they have no critical thinking skills.

The greatest feat of the right wing was to program a significant chunk of the population to believe everyone is rotten. The majority of those who drink that koolaid end up voting Republican anyway while talking out the other side of their mouth.

This is the lie cemented in the beating heart of the Tea Party and later Q Anon and MAGA.

The fait accompli was programming these people into feeling like they are the oppressed with Exhibit A being the offense they take whenever their lies are exposed. They are conditioned to counter truthfulness with anger and more lies which sends them spinning off into their conspiratorial fantasy worlds. Arguing with a MAGA merely reinforces their psychology as they programmed to double down on anything perceived as an attack on their illogic.

I went back and read Spree's original post, and it wasn't as bad as I initially thought it was. It seemed out of place, and not relevant to the thread, but certainly there are some lies going on in government as we speak, er, type. And a list of lies proves that sometimes government lies. But who didn't know that? And what was his goal? He posted after the question about how the shooter knew Trump would be at that golf course. The FBI has said they're looking into it. It could be an informant. It could have simply been that he observed Trump for a while and worked out his schedule, but the implication "it's government" . . . seemed silly.

Like ultra-high powered government officials would decide to "work with this crazy person" and tell him where Trump will be so he can wait 12 hours in a golf course shrubbery and maybe get a shot off. As Tony Stark would say "not a great plan"

Watch on YouTube

;t=2s

- - -

The interesting thing about the tea party is that it started under W. Bush, as outrage to the bailouts and thinking that government money shouldn't be spent that way. If the banks had actually failed, that would have been worse, and I don't think W had much choice and he can be faulted for many things, but not the bailout. But it became an anti-Obama far right organization once Obama took office. That was by design a lot of it. Rich powerful people on the far right usurped it and re-directed its message from focusing on spending, to anti democrat.

The far right tells way too many lies, but if they told the truth, they wouldn't have as many voters behind them. It sucks, but I'm not sure what can be done about that. Other than maybe education.

No I posted the meme in direct response to buzz’s “Deep State” mention. I don’t even know much about this shooter situation at all yet, but like I said was just having fun with it until you responded.

Clyde tho… my goodness, this is a pattern I’m noticing. Anybody who says anything against government is MAGA or Q Anon. It’s amazing. You’re denying historical facts for some reason. I’m not a MAGA tho, just trying to wake people up to the real boogeymen. I thought I was a liberal at one point, but boy have things changed..

You grabbed a random list of government boogeyman projects to prove why government cannot be trusted. Generic statements that power corrupts lacks any value whatsoever.

When one political party makes insulin available for $35 a month and saves lives and the incomes of those in need nationwide while their opposition wants to deregulate big pharma to maximize their profits I don't have time for your broad stroke generalizations about not trusting anyone. It's pathetic and irresponsible the way you generalize.

You were making a case for Trump in earlier threads. If you use MAGA logic, then the joke's on you even if you don't know it. That's my point, you've been programmed to make generic comments that decontextualize everything which is what the right programmed you to do. A sure sign of their success is you are now saying you thought you were liberal and posting pictures of "angry libtards" as a response. That's exactly what I said earlier and you fell right into the mud pit even though I had already spelled it out for you.

That second picture also exactly illustrates your mindset. You somehow think getting your ass kicked in public for staying stupid crap in public forums now makes you a free speech warrior and conversely that I'm trying to limit your free speech. You clearly don't know what freedom of speech is.

[Clyde_Style]

Sorry for that board, but I'm hoping the majority of Americans will no longer put up with rhetoric that uses claims of neutrality or being above the fray as a cover for supporting the far right. These fake games of impartiality are insincere and need to be called out.

[Luv those Knicks]

The problem I’ve found with bringing up these things with people is that it challenges their world view and reality. Therefore, they brush it off and call you crazy as a defense mechanism.

“Some shady stuff” sums up things like plans to stage fake terrorist attacks in the USA on its own citizens to gain public support for war against Cuba including civilian airline attacks. Thankfully JFK shot that down and afterwards got rid of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs who proposed Operation Northwoods.

“Shady stuff” is illegally drugging regular average guys with LCD at brothels for experiments, or illegally keeping all types of average citizens against their will at legitimate hospitals and performing torture tests on them with massive doses of LCD and mind control techniques while they’re there simply for depression or leg pain. That ruined a lot of people’s lives, completely, and some died (MK Ultra/Operation Midnight Climax).

Guess bringing Nazi’s into the scientific community is just “shady” too. Operation Paperclip brought people into NASA such as von Braun who was SS and allowed concentration camp prisoner labor on his previous rocket program, in addition to murder. Would’ve never went to the moon without him tho so it’s all good right?

Contras/CIA/Crack epidemic in the USA no issue?

Also no biggie to spy on and infiltrate civilian anti-war and political activist groups who they felt were subversive… who was literally everybody including MLK, Panthers, Nation of Islam, Hispanic rights groups, Anti-Vietnam war groups, Students for a Democratic Society etc. (Co Intel Pro & Chaos).

That’s just the tip of the iceberg. No biggie, government just told some little white lies tho.

LCD? Is that LSD?

It seems, you don't listen to anyone when they critique your position.

I'm perfectly fine with an intelligent discussion about government spying, government lying, government overreach, crack, LSD, whatever, and these are valid issues, and complex and worth talking about, but can we find one subject and stick to it?

You treat your arguments as irrefutable blocks of absolute truth and that doesn't work for me. There's a reason so few people agree with your posts and it's not that you're challenging anyone's world view. It's that you expect people to agree with your over-large and sweeping arguments absolutely and when they don't, you call out their intelligence.

And rather than discuss one thing you drop a dozen examples, some from decades ago, which makes it a little too all over the place.

[spree8]

I went back and read Spree's original post, and it wasn't as bad as I initially thought it was. It seemed out of place, and not relevant to the thread, but certainly there are some lies going on in government as we speak, er, type. And a list of lies proves that sometimes government lies. But who didn't know that? And what was his goal? He posted after the question about how the shooter knew Trump would be at that golf course. The FBI has said they're looking into it. It could be an informant. It could have simply been that he observed Trump for a while and worked out his schedule, but the implication "it's government" . . . seemed silly.

Like ultra-high powered government officials would decide to "work with this crazy person" and tell him where Trump will be so he can wait 12 hours in a golf course shrubbery and maybe get a shot off. As Tony Stark would say "not a great plan"

Watch on YouTube

;t=2s

- - -

The interesting thing about the tea party is that it started under W. Bush, as outrage to the bailouts and thinking that government money shouldn't be spent that way. If the banks had actually failed, that would have been worse, and I don't think W had much choice and he can be faulted for many things, but not the bailout. But it became an anti-Obama far right organization once Obama took office. That was by design a lot of it. Rich powerful people on the far right usurped it and re-directed its message from focusing on spending, to anti democrat.

The far right tells way too many lies, but if they told the truth, they wouldn't have as many voters behind them. It sucks, but I'm not sure what can be done about that. Other than maybe education.

No I posted the meme in direct response to buzz’s “Deep State” mention. I don’t even know much about this shooter situation at all yet, but like I said was just having fun with it until you responded.

Clyde tho… my goodness, this is a pattern I’m noticing. Anybody who says anything against government is MAGA or Q Anon. It’s amazing. You’re denying historical facts for some reason. I’m not a MAGA tho, just trying to wake people up to the real boogeymen. I thought I was a liberal at one point, but boy have things changed..

You grabbed a random list of government boogeyman projects to prove why government cannot be trusted. Generic statements that power corrupts lacks any value whatsoever.

When one political party makes insulin available for $35 a month and saves lives and the incomes of those in need nationwide while their opposition wants to deregulate big pharma to maximize their profits I don't have time for your broad stroke generalizations about not trusting anyone. It's pathetic and irresponsible the way you generalize.

So ignore it all and deflect while accusing me of generalizing? I’d like to see you acknowledge the previous post before this one and address every particular thing there.

I’m not saying your beloved politicians are the ones conducting these atrocities at all. You’re not hearing me. A lot of them were conducting hearings trying to fight against these issues. I’m telling you I personally just don’t trust government and by government I mean the real power… the industries, the corporations, (because they run our government) and the majority of party leaders.

I always say there are some politicians who try to make a change and help, absolutely. Most become corrupt to some degree but there are levels to it. People at the top are the worst of them like I said. But most of others are nowhere near as bad by comparison, but they still don’t have clean hands by any stretch. And a large part of that is because they really can’t afford to not get their hands dirty taking money from lobbyists, or they won’t last. I get it. Guess I hate the game more than the player in some cases.

Mid-lower tier politicians spend a lot of time trying to get money for the party as instructed. They try to get some things done for their constituents sure, they’ll throw us some bones every now and then, but let’s face it, our society and system is so jacked up that these incremental changes don’t move the needle all that much. Income inequality in this country is among the worst in the world and the powers that be are too busy trying to play chess with the world as its board and control everything, including its own citizens.

I’m not making this a blue vs red thing. I don’t know why people wanna take it to that lower level when I think I’m clearly saying it’s bigger than that. I just think people get so caught up in the tribalism that anything else is nonexistent. In my experience, blue or red team wins the election, and things still suck. I understand people are afraid of Trump, I don’t like the guy, but I’m not afraid of him or what people think he can do. I know a lot of people are (people on the CA board made that clear). So I’m not gunna tell you not to be or that the left is just as bad, I’m just saying I think the real power is worse.

[spree8]

The problem I’ve found with bringing up these things with people is that it challenges their world view and reality. Therefore, they brush it off and call you crazy as a defense mechanism.

“Some shady stuff” sums up things like plans to stage fake terrorist attacks in the USA on its own citizens to gain public support for war against Cuba including civilian airline attacks. Thankfully JFK shot that down and afterwards got rid of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs who proposed Operation Northwoods.

“Shady stuff” is illegally drugging regular average guys with LCD at brothels for experiments, or illegally keeping all types of average citizens against their will at legitimate hospitals and performing torture tests on them with massive doses of LCD and mind control techniques while they’re there simply for depression or leg pain. That ruined a lot of people’s lives, completely, and some died (MK Ultra/Operation Midnight Climax).

Guess bringing Nazi’s into the scientific community is just “shady” too. Operation Paperclip brought people into NASA such as von Braun who was SS and allowed concentration camp prisoner labor on his previous rocket program, in addition to murder. Would’ve never went to the moon without him tho so it’s all good right?

Contras/CIA/Crack epidemic in the USA no issue?

Also no biggie to spy on and infiltrate civilian anti-war and political activist groups who they felt were subversive… who was literally everybody including MLK, Panthers, Nation of Islam, Hispanic rights groups, Anti-Vietnam war groups, Students for a Democratic Society etc. (Co Intel Pro & Chaos).

That’s just the tip of the iceberg. No biggie, government just told some little white lies tho.

LCD? Is that LSD?

It seems, you don't listen to anyone when they critique your position.

I'm perfectly fine with an intelligent discussion about government spying, government lying, government overreach, crack, LSD, whatever, and these are valid issues, and complex and worth talking about, but can we find one subject and stick to it?

You treat your arguments as irrefutable blocks of absolute truth and that doesn't work for me. There's a reason so few people agree with your posts and it's not that you're challenging anyone's world view. It's that you expect people to agree with your over-large and sweeping arguments absolutely and when they don't, you call out their intelligence.

And rather than discuss one thing you drop a dozen examples, some from decades ago, which makes it a little too all over the place.

Yea I’m half asleep and rambling here, I mean LSD.

I never called out anyone’s intelligence?

And why would it be a problem to drop dozens of operations the government conducted if they’re all on the topic of corruption? This is decades worth of evidence that’s all related to the same issue (that they’re not worthy of trust). What’s difficult about that? It’s overwhelming evidence supporting the claim.

[Luv those Knicks]

No I posted the meme in direct response to buzz’s “Deep State” mention. I don’t even know much about this shooter situation at all yet, but like I said was just having fun with it until you responded.

Clyde tho… my goodness, this is a pattern I’m noticing. Anybody who says anything against government is MAGA or Q Anon. It’s amazing. You’re denying historical facts for some reason. I’m not a MAGA tho, just trying to wake people up to the real boogeymen. I thought I was a liberal at one point, but boy have things changed..

Well, as I said in an earlier post, and as others have pointed out, bringing deep state into this thread is premature and, frankly, silly.

But I guess you love that topic so much you couldn't resist.

as for the libruls . . .

"Left Wing 2020, **** you do what they tell you"

Is the left wing 2020 giving us orders that I'm not aware of?

Defund the police is a policy issue, not an order

Trans rights is a policy issue, not an order.

Environmentalism has always been a policy issue, which cuts into things some people like, like owning a big car or giant house, but environmentalism isn't a new issue, in fact it probably had more power in the 60s and 70s than it has today.

Pro choice - also a policy issue

Gun restrictions - again, policy. See what I'm getting at? Liberalism is about policy. If you think it's not, please counter some of my examples.

And when you use that image (the lady was protesting occupy WallStreet, long before the 2020s, but repubs so love using her picture, that it carries forward I suppose. Are we still going to see bug-eyed lady in the 2030s? 2040s? But, OK, forget the image for now. Lets look at the language. "do what they tell you", which is the opposite of what that lady was saying at the time, but lets take those words.

Who is the "they" in that sentence and what are they telling you to do? And, do you have the freedom to say no? Telling someone to do something might be rude, but it's protected by free speech. But who is this "they" to which your image refers and what are they telling you to do?

[Luv those Knicks]

Yea I’m half asleep and rambling here, I mean LSD.

I never called out anyone’s intelligence?

And why would it be a problem to drop dozens of operations the government conducted if they’re all on the topic of corruption? This is decades worth of evidence that’s all related to the same issue (that they’re not worthy of trust). What’s difficult about that? It’s overwhelming evidence supporting the claim.

Because this isn't a thread about corruption. Well, it wasn't. I'm afraid it's going to get locked soon now.

Back on Trump, 60 minutes was criticized for running a bit on January 6th just hours after this potential shooting. I don't have a problem with that, but a lot of people are angry. Are they supposed to stop covering Trump when somebody shoots at him or plots to shoot him?

Would Fox News have stopped covering Monica or Benghazi if a shooter had been found targeting Bill or Hillary? What would Fox News even talk about if they had to take a break from covering Hillary when she was running for president?

I don't know. I don't have a problem with 60 minutes choice, but a lot of people do.

- -

Back to us. I think you did attack my intelligence but lets forget that for now and go back to you.

You're convinced that there's enormous, sweeping, all encompassing government corruption that nearly everyone here but you has a hard time seeing.

And you're convinced that liberals are the problem, telling people what to do.

Do those two things even mesh? Do you think liberals are running the government, because . . . if you do. . . . I'm going to have to disagree with you on that.

Clyde might be right. If you're an anti government, anti liberal, right winger, that makes some sense, but from any other world view, that makes no sense.

Can you explain the link between liberals telling you what to do and the deep state?

[spree8]

No I posted the meme in direct response to buzz’s “Deep State” mention. I don’t even know much about this shooter situation at all yet, but like I said was just having fun with it until you responded.

Clyde tho… my goodness, this is a pattern I’m noticing. Anybody who says anything against government is MAGA or Q Anon. It’s amazing. You’re denying historical facts for some reason. I’m not a MAGA tho, just trying to wake people up to the real boogeymen. I thought I was a liberal at one point, but boy have things changed..

Well, as I said in an earlier post, and as others have pointed out, bringing deep state into this thread is premature and, frankly, silly.

But I guess you love that topic so much you couldn't resist.

as for the libruls . . .

"Left Wing 2020, **** you do what they tell you"

Is the left wing 2020 giving us orders that I'm not aware of?

Defund the police is a policy issue, not an order

Trans rights is a policy issue, not an order.

Environmentalism has always been a policy issue, which cuts into things some people like, like owning a big car or giant house, but environmentalism isn't a new issue, in fact it probably had more power in the 60s and 70s than it has today.

Pro choice - also a policy issue

Gun restrictions - again, policy. See what I'm getting at? Liberalism is about policy. If you think it's not, please counter some of my examples.

And when you use that image (the lady was protesting occupy WallStreet, long before the 2020s, but repubs so love using her picture, that it carries forward I suppose. Are we still going to see bug-eyed lady in the 2030s? 2040s? But, OK, forget the image for now. Lets look at the language. "do what they tell you", which is the opposite of what that lady was saying at the time, but lets take those words.

Who is the "they" in that sentence and what are they telling you to do? And, do you have the freedom to say no? Telling someone to do something might be rude, but it's protected by free speech. But who is this "they" to which your image refers and what are they telling you to do?

I know it was silly, I said buzz brought it up in a silly way and I chimed in with a silly meme lol. You brought it up to me and here we are…

I don’t love the topic any more than people love talking the politics on a daily basis all over the world. I just bring it up when crazy stuff happens lol. Maybe if people spoke about that every day instead of the political game, we could actually make some progress. Like Occupy Wallstreet for example. “They” (the machine/system and all that comes with it) shut that down real quick tho, but that was one of the best causes in my lifetime. That’s what I call a liberal cause FWIW.

Btw no, that lady is actually from a recent video but wasn’t about Occupy… it absolutely was taken out of context tho, and it created a poster girl for present day leftist’s (not that I agree or care, I didn’t make that meme either for the record).

[Clyde_Style]

No I posted the meme in direct response to buzz’s “Deep State” mention. I don’t even know much about this shooter situation at all yet, but like I said was just having fun with it until you responded.

Clyde tho… my goodness, this is a pattern I’m noticing. Anybody who says anything against government is MAGA or Q Anon. It’s amazing. You’re denying historical facts for some reason. I’m not a MAGA tho, just trying to wake people up to the real boogeymen. I thought I was a liberal at one point, but boy have things changed..

You grabbed a random list of government boogeyman projects to prove why government cannot be trusted. Generic statements that power corrupts lacks any value whatsoever.

When one political party makes insulin available for $35 a month and saves lives and the incomes of those in need nationwide while their opposition wants to deregulate big pharma to maximize their profits I don't have time for your broad stroke generalizations about not trusting anyone. It's pathetic and irresponsible the way you generalize.

So ignore it all and deflect while accusing me of generalizing? I’d like to see you acknowledge the previous post before this one and address every particular thing there.

I’m not saying your beloved politicians are the ones conducting these atrocities at all. You’re not hearing me. A lot of them were conducting hearings trying to fight against these issues. I’m telling you I personally just don’t trust government and by government I mean the real power… the industries, the corporations, (because they run our government) and the majority of party leaders.

I always say there are some politicians who try to make a change and help, absolutely. Most become corrupt to some degree but there are levels to it. People at the top are the worst of them like I said. But most of others are nowhere near as bad by comparison, but they still don’t have clean hands by any stretch. And a large part of that is because they really can’t afford to not get their hands dirty taking money from lobbyists, or they won’t last. I get it. Guess I hate the game more than the player in some cases.

Mid-lower tier politicians spend a lot of time trying to get money for the party as instructed. They try to get some things done for their constituents sure, they’ll throw us some bones every now and then, but let’s face it, our society and system is so jacked up that these incremental changes don’t move the needle all that much. Income inequality in this country is among the worst in the world and the powers that be are too busy trying to play chess with the world as its board and control everything, including its own citizens.

I’m not making this a blue vs red thing. I don’t know why people wanna take it to that lower level when I think I’m clearly saying it’s bigger than that. I just think people get so caught up in the tribalism that anything else is nonexistent. In my experience, blue or red team wins the election, and things still suck. I understand people are afraid of Trump, I don’t like the guy, but I’m not afraid of him or what people think he can do. I know a lot of people are (people on the CA board made that clear). So I’m not gunna tell you not to be or that the left is just as bad, I’m just saying I think the real power is worse.

It is not about throwing bones to the peasants Spree. It is about a woman's right to self-determination, a family's right to have a family on their own terms, the protection of voter rights, the availability of health care to everyone, making corporations pay their fair share of the tax burden, having clean air and water, the right to love whomever you want, worker rights, civil rights.

Instead of obsessing over uncontrollable forces you consider untouchable and unaccountable, therefore nefarious, why don't you focus on what impacts 95% of American lives and what actually impacts them which is going to be very different depending on which direction we go politically from hereon out. If you genuinely believe it doesn't matter who is in the White House or who controls the House and the Senate, then there is nothing for us to discuss to be fair.

You may be consumed by some kind of conspiratorial doom, but it really has very little to do with either our daily lives or the electoral outcome. Dragging that kind of talk into threads like you have done is like I said before a form of decontextualization that unmoors any meaningful conversation. I know I was harsh, but I had to tell you these broad strokes and generalizations about power structures really are toxic memes designed to destabilize discourse not enhance it.

I can certainly believe you are not MAGA. But I do believe you have been subjected to bad thinking and it has affected you. Decontextualized injections into otherwise unrelated dialogues became a basic MAGA rhetorical method. While you may not associate yourself with MAGA, when you position yourself as distrustful of all power you are unwittingly aligning yourself with the far right and their rhetorical games.

Self-identifying as previously being somewhere along the liberal spectrum should not automatically relegate you to anti-liberal. Posting libtard memes is not a good sign of where your head is at even if you are not a Trump supporter. The issue with people who say they are anti-woke and hate cancel culture is it became just another easy out to dismiss those who are ready for a good fight. Most of the time those who cry about wokeness are chickens and can't represent their ideas effectively so they fall back on the weak meme of being persecuted by lefties.

Anyway, the right wants the world to believe government is bad, but vote for them anyway. Centrists and Left of Center say the system is flawed but a lot of good things can be done to benefit citizens. Talking about conspiracy theories or deep states or MK Ultra and Bay of Pigs got nothing to do with that. Don't mix your metaphors and don't throw out the baby with the bathwater Spree. The world can be better in some ways no matter how ugly it may be.

[HarthorneWingo]

Can’t nobody shoot straight? Bunch of clowns.

[HarthorneWingo]

Keep an eye on this, if true, and in light of the first assassination attempt and the security breakdowns.

Read on Twitter

Deep state tipped him off, naturally

I’m the best golfer in the world. No one has ever beaten me. If I wasn’t busy making the greatest and, frankly, bigliest deals in the world, then I’d be the best golfer to have ever golfed.

[St Knick]

I'm not sure I should go down this rabbit hole, but which of these happened most recently? Most recent year please.

Why does that matter? They didn’t just stop, I’m sure we’ll know more in the future when it’s declassified. I didn’t make that list tho, if I did there would be a lot more lol. I suppose you could add Wiki Leaks, Snowden, Twitter Files, Facebook/Zuc admitting censorship, etc.

If you're going to convince people that the lying hasn't stopped and that it's an ongoing pattern, then an example in the last few years would be very helpful. The most recent example would be best.

Otherwise, you're just posting a collection of outliers. This is the difference between a legitimate argument and an attempt to push disinformation.

Even the people who dispute man-made climate change can make a list like you made, or posted, and they do it fairly often usually quite a bit longer and it can even sound convincing, at first glance anyway, without examination.

The point is, for something to be true, just making a list isn't enough. Lists needs to be examined and reviewed. A step back must be taken, and questions have to be asked. My asking when the last big lie happened was just my first step towards review. Without a proper and thorough review, we know almost nothing.

Ruby RIdge, for example. From the government's point of view, that was a mistake and not how to handle that kind of situation. In fact, that's basically rule number one now in how to handle a protest.

Kent State killings too. Mistakes were made by the national guard and policy was changed as a result, such as limiting the hours on duty for any individuals standing guard, and not marching through protestors, but focusing on containment, not disbursal.

Those are examples of events that the government has made a sizable effort to not repeat, and NOT examples of the government lying to you.

that's a super charitable and naive take. are you implying the govt is in fact worthy of our unquestioning trust and that they have seen the light? it's human nature; "absolute power corrupts absolutely"

[Fury]

Somehow, when Trump was President, he didn't count as the government.