Revisit: Better Player Right Now: Jalen Brunson V Anthony Edwards

[msmoore66]

Both are awesome. But surely if we are just talking "better player" you have to account for defense. Not sure the gap offensively is all that big so Ant's advantages in defense are too big. So I think I have to go with him.

[One Last Shot]

Brunson right now. The guy just finished 5th in MVP and came very close to carrying his team to the ECF with a significantly hobbled Knicks team.

Ant certainly has a significantly higher ceiling and can easily pass him this upcoming season though.

Isaiah Thomas finished 5th in MVP during 2017 season. You think he's better than Steph, Anthony Davis, Durant or even Giannis that year who all finished lower in MVP voting?

[picc]

Yeah it was pretty obvious for those following that Ant had that hard fall and then stopped being able to drive the ball at a high level. It didn't become a playoff story, but people who want to act like Dallas (or even Denver late in the series) "figured him out"... I don't think that's solid analysis. I didn't know the Towns thing at the time, but it makes sense considering his shot just had no legs.

Basically we gave everything we had to beat Denver and had nothing left in the tank against Dallas. Our perimeter defense collapsed, and we weren't able to punch back on the other end.

That's not a real excuse when the Mavericks actually played more games before the WCF than the Wolves did. And were more injured. And their stars were older.

Minnie didnt run out of gas. They just lost to a better team.

As for the question, its super close, but i'm starting a team I'd rather have Ant. Brunson could have a higher average, but I think Ant's ceiling game to game is higher with his defense, which had a real impact during the playoffs. He's not an elite defensive player, but him compared to Brunson's contribution on that end - which is zero, if not negative - flips it in his favor.

I'm not making an excuse. I never said we lost because of health. Dallas' defensive scheme was extremely effective against us, and Luka only needed corner shooters and lob threat to make our defense- which was looking historical until this series- look completely helpless. Luka shredded us, and would have shredded us even if we were healthier. Lively/Gafford and that scheme was always going to matchup pretty well against Ant's drives.

Going into that series, my hope was that KAT's (and Naz's) shooting could force Dallas to make a defensive adjustment and get away from the stuff they used to beat OKC. Then KAT- who had been excellent against Denver and Phoenix- all of a sudden shot 24% from 3 and looked awful against a defense he should have been well suited to score on. When I hear he was hiding an injury, that makes sense to me. Ant's injury is a fact and I was already aware of that.

Dallas beat us pretty handily. 4-1, outscored us by a solid 40 points over the series. I don't think an injury swung the series. Moreso I think we could have played a little better and not gone out so sad with our 2 best offensive players healthier. Dallas had been pretty banged up too against LAC and OKC, but I think they were the healthier team in that series. I happily admit they beat us either way.

That all makes sense. I just think the "we ran out of gas" thing is a lame excuse that people (not you in particular, just something I've seen over the years) use when the reality is always that the better team just won.

Like, its the playoffs. Injuries happen and that always plays a part in who comes out on top. But as far as fatigue goes, everyone's tired, and everyone's exhausted. If the other team was a worse team than you, you wouldn't have run out of gas. You would have won, and there would have been no mention of a gas tank. (again, not directed to you in particular, speaking in general)

But I agree with pretty much everything you said, with the exception of Minnie being the healthier team. Luka was "healthier" than before, I guess, but as evidenced by the Boston series, his injuries never went away. And Dallas is the only team that had a key player miss a game (Lively), which incidentally led to Minnie winning game 4 and avoiding the sweep.

But all that isn't really important. We're agreed on what happened for the most part. Whether Ant was hurt or tired or not wasn't his problem, it was his inexperience and inability to handle passing out of strong doubles. Minnie's chances this year will be a lot better if he's grown from that and can map the court a bit better and punish the aggressive help schemes Dallas sent at him.

[DimesandKnicks]

Big Body

[SeanieWard]

If you value defense I think the answer has to be Edwards. The gap is pretty wide there. As good as Brunson is offensively, Edwards is also an elite offensive player despite Brunson being more sure of himself on that end as far picking his spots and being consistent. Edwards is the choice for me

[bronxknicksfan1]

I said Ant because he has stretches where he's unstoppable. Whereas, Brunson can be stifled by wing defenders.

If it were that simple to stop Brunson, he wouldn’t have averaged close to 30 in the regular season and 35 in the postseason.

[bronxknicksfan1]

Brunson right now. The guy just finished 5th in MVP and came very close to carrying his team to the ECF with a significantly hobbled Knicks team.

Ant certainly has a significantly higher ceiling and can easily pass him this upcoming season though.

Isaiah Thomas finished 5th in MVP during 2017 season. You think he's better than Steph, Anthony Davis, Durant or even Giannis that year who all finished lower in MVP voting?

You putting 2023-24 Ant Edwards in the same tier as those players?

[bronxknicksfan1]

If we’re talking rn, I’m taking Brunson as a better player. He’s a much better offensive player than Ant at this point in his career. The difference defensively is big, but if we’re looking at a guy that carry an offense…I don’t see Ant doing that yet. He has his moments, but he’s not as consistent as Brunson there.

Can definitely changed in the next 2-3 years though.

[cupcakesnake]

That's not a real excuse when the Mavericks actually played more games before the WCF than the Wolves did. And were more injured. And their stars were older.

Minnie didnt run out of gas. They just lost to a better team.

As for the question, its super close, but i'm starting a team I'd rather have Ant. Brunson could have a higher average, but I think Ant's ceiling game to game is higher with his defense, which had a real impact during the playoffs. He's not an elite defensive player, but him compared to Brunson's contribution on that end - which is zero, if not negative - flips it in his favor.

I'm not making an excuse. I never said we lost because of health. Dallas' defensive scheme was extremely effective against us, and Luka only needed corner shooters and lob threat to make our defense- which was looking historical until this series- look completely helpless. Luka shredded us, and would have shredded us even if we were healthier. Lively/Gafford and that scheme was always going to matchup pretty well against Ant's drives.

Going into that series, my hope was that KAT's (and Naz's) shooting could force Dallas to make a defensive adjustment and get away from the stuff they used to beat OKC. Then KAT- who had been excellent against Denver and Phoenix- all of a sudden shot 24% from 3 and looked awful against a defense he should have been well suited to score on. When I hear he was hiding an injury, that makes sense to me. Ant's injury is a fact and I was already aware of that.

Dallas beat us pretty handily. 4-1, outscored us by a solid 40 points over the series. I don't think an injury swung the series. Moreso I think we could have played a little better and not gone out so sad with our 2 best offensive players healthier. Dallas had been pretty banged up too against LAC and OKC, but I think they were the healthier team in that series. I happily admit they beat us either way.

That all makes sense. I just think the "we ran out of gas" thing is a lame excuse that people (not you in particular, just something I've seen over the years) use when the reality is always that the better team just won.

Like, its the playoffs. Injuries happen and that always plays a part in who comes out on top. But as far as fatigue goes, everyone's tired, and everyone's exhausted. If the other team was a worse team than you, you wouldn't have run out of gas. You would have won, and there would have been no mention of a gas tank. (again, not directed to you in particular, speaking in general)

But I agree with pretty much everything you said, with the exception of Minnie being the healthier team. Luka was "healthier" than before, I guess, but as evidenced by the Boston series, his injuries never went away. And Dallas is the only team that had a key player miss a game (Lively), which incidentally led to Minnie winning game 4 and avoiding the sweep.

But all that isn't really important. We're agreed on what happened for the most part. Whether Ant was hurt or tired or not wasn't his problem, it was his inexperience and inability to handle passing out of strong doubles. Minnie's chances this year will be a lot better if he's grown from that and can map the court a bit better and punish the aggressive help schemes Dallas sent at him.

I think "running out of gas" is a broad term that we apply to teams that lose in a playoff series and look faded or bad by the end of the series. This can be due to fatigue or injuries for sure, but sometimes it's a strategic thing where the opponent has taken so much off the table for you, and as team you've run out of counters or problem solving tools. Sometimes a team is playing a 6-man rotation by the end of a deep playoff run and simply looks spent. Sometimes a team's lack of shooting or defense or playmaking runs out of strategic options against a really good defense (or a difficult defensive matchup).

I disagree with what you're saying about Ant though. I'm as critical as anyone about his playmaking reads, but Ant was having very little problem with "strong doubles" against Phoenix and Denver before falling on his back. Forget Dallas for a second, just look at Ant's possessions vs. Denver before and after the fall. It's very clear he no longer had the same level of blow by ability that gave him a head start. After hurting his back in the 3rd quarter of game 6, Ant put up 16 points on 25% shooting, and only got to the line once in game 7. He slowly improved over the Dallas series as that injury got further in hindsight.

I still think Dallas had way better rim defense than Denver or Phoenix by far, and would have been a tough matchup for Ant regardless. He was very clearly limited, which matters a lot for a player who's main advantage is in his athletic burst. Again, I don't think it changes the outcome of the series, but it would have looked a little more competitive if Ant was able to attack with advantage. I think Towns was by far our bigger problem though, because he's the one who should have been a matchup advantage (Elite stretch big vs. conservative paint defensive scheme).

It's the kind of thing you only care about when it's the team you're rooting for. Think of the Lakers last year with Lebron's heel injury. Sure they weren't beating Denver regardless, but Lakers fans were pretty glum about watching Lebron being unable to attack off the dribble. People tell you you're just making excuses, but you know there's a functional difference. Dallas fans were pretty upset watching Luka struggle in the first 2 series as well. Injuries change a lot about a series. So does strategy and I'm not pushing back against that. A lot goes into a conference finals win or loss.

[mdonnelly1989]

I hear people saying that defensive is a wide margin. But offense is more important. Especially as the primary offensive weapons.

And JB is clearly better offensively. Ant tends to go cold more often where as Brunson is always a threat to score from anywhere on the court. This makes it close but I'd give JB the slight edge given I value offense quite a bit more than defense.

[picc]

I think "running out of gas" is a broad term that we apply to teams that lose in a playoff series and look faded or bad by the end of the series. This can be due to fatigue or injuries for sure, but sometimes it's a strategic thing where the opponent has taken so much off the table for you, and as team you've run out of counters or problem solving tools. Sometimes a team is playing a 6-man rotation by the end of a deep playoff run and simply looks spent. Sometimes a team's lack of shooting or defense or playmaking runs out of strategic options against a really good defense (or a difficult defensive matchup).

Sure, I think that can be true. And I think that's what you meant. But I've definitely seen people make that excuse intending to say one deep, full healthy team was better, but was just too tired to win. Usually about older teams. I understand that wasn't your intention here, so I won't dwell on it or respond any more here to posters who aren't you.

I disagree with what you're saying about Ant though. I'm as critical as anyone about his playmaking reads, but Ant was having very little problem with "strong doubles" against Phoenix and Denver before falling on his back. Forget Dallas for a second, just look at Ant's possessions vs. Denver before and after the fall. It's very clear he no longer had the same level of blow by ability that gave him a head start. After hurting his back in the 3rd quarter of game 6, Ant put up 16 points on 25% shooting, and only got to the line once in game 7. He slowly improved over the Dallas series as that injury got further in hindsight.

This may be true too. I'll take your word that his blow-by ability was impacted by an injury. However, Ant clearly had trouble passing out of doubles against Dallas and made some costly, wildly errant turnovers that can't be blamed on his back. He had some great passing games in the Denver series, for sure, but he also had some bad turnovers there as well.

Its a real issue that he has to work on. And luckily for him, he's very young and that will naturally happen over the next few years.

I still think Dallas had way better rim defense than Denver or Phoenix by far, and would have been a tough matchup for Ant regardless. He was very clearly limited, which matters a lot for a player who's main advantage is in his athletic burst. Again, I don't think it changes the outcome of the series, but it would have looked a little more competitive if Ant was able to attack with advantage. I think Towns was by far our bigger problem though, because he's the one who should have been a matchup advantage (Elite stretch big vs. conservative paint defensive scheme).

It's the kind of thing you only care about when it's the team you're rooting for. Think of the Lakers last year with Lebron's heel injury. Sure they weren't beating Denver regardless, but Lakers fans were pretty glum about watching Lebron being unable to attack off the dribble. People tell you you're just making excuses, but you know there's a functional difference. Dallas fans were pretty upset watching Luka struggle in the first 2 series as well. Injuries change a lot about a series. So does strategy and I'm not pushing back against that. A lot goes into a conference finals win or loss.

That's all fair.

[NbaAllDay]

Ant has gone through the - Played very well and gained extra attention, with extra attention took a small step back and is finding ways to adjust his game to suit.

Brunson has pushed through that extra attention and still managed to stay elite.

As of potential, Ant has it but as of RIGHT now it is Brunson.

[Klomp]

I think "running out of gas" is a broad term that we apply to teams that lose in a playoff series and look faded or bad by the end of the series. This can be due to fatigue or injuries for sure, but sometimes it's a strategic thing where the opponent has taken so much off the table for you, and as team you've run out of counters or problem solving tools. Sometimes a team is playing a 6-man rotation by the end of a deep playoff run and simply looks spent. Sometimes a team's lack of shooting or defense or playmaking runs out of strategic options against a really good defense (or a difficult defensive matchup).

Sure, I think that can be true. And I think that's what you meant. But I've definitely seen people make that excuse intending to say one deep, full healthy team was better, but was just too tired to win. Usually about older teams. I understand that wasn't your intention here, so I won't dwell on it or respond any more here to posters who aren't you.

One other factor to keep in mind is the amount of energy that Minnesota exerted every night on both ends of the court. That absolutely factors into fatigue.

Read on Twitter

Dallas deserved to win. But Minnesota was definitely gassed, just like you could probably say Dallas was gassed in the Finals.



As to the point of this thread, I have no issue if people believe Brunson might be ahead of Edwards.

[Klomp]

Ant has gone through the - Played very well and gained extra attention, with extra attention took a small step back and is finding ways to adjust his game to suit.

Just curious when you feel he took a step back?

[picc]

I think "running out of gas" is a broad term that we apply to teams that lose in a playoff series and look faded or bad by the end of the series. This can be due to fatigue or injuries for sure, but sometimes it's a strategic thing where the opponent has taken so much off the table for you, and as team you've run out of counters or problem solving tools. Sometimes a team is playing a 6-man rotation by the end of a deep playoff run and simply looks spent. Sometimes a team's lack of shooting or defense or playmaking runs out of strategic options against a really good defense (or a difficult defensive matchup).

Sure, I think that can be true. And I think that's what you meant. But I've definitely seen people make that excuse intending to say one deep, full healthy team was better, but was just too tired to win. Usually about older teams. I understand that wasn't your intention here, so I won't dwell on it or respond any more here to posters who aren't you.

One other factor to keep in mind is the amount of energy that Minnesota exerted every night on both ends of the court. That absolutely factors into fatigue.

I simply don't buy that in the least, or accept it as an excuse for a professional NBA team with title aspirations, and so I don't care. Not even a little tiny bit. So I won't be keeping that factor in mind at all.

Respectfully.

[nbaguy1]

Brunson. Purely based on personality. Hes a no diva PG others love to play for day in and day out. No big words. Just heads down calm play. He needs a batman though.

Ant is not my favorite batman.

[Quentin]

Ant is injured. Has been since this fall against the Nuggets. He was still limping in the Olympics. Before that fall he was an absolute monster.

Watch on YouTube

[Scalabrine]

Brunson right now. The guy just finished 5th in MVP and came very close to carrying his team to the ECF with a significantly hobbled Knicks team.

Ant certainly has a significantly higher ceiling and can easily pass him this upcoming season though.

He was 5th in MVP because of the pro-NY bias / good storyline it made not because he's that good.

Ant's better. People love to pretend like defense doesn't exist in these convos but once you take it into account, you can't even pretend that Brunson > Ant... Also if the league stops giving Brunson the old Trae Young calls, you're going to see a serious dropoff in his play...

Stop acting like you watch the Knicks man. You've admitted before that you don't and that you just like to hate. I bet you don't watch the Wolves either.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=forall&year_min=2024&year_max=2024&player_id1=brunsja01&player_id2=edwaran01

Statistically it's hard to argue against Brunson. Brunson is a much better offensive player and an average defensive player for his size. Edwards is a better defensive player.

[Karate Diop]

Brunson right now. The guy just finished 5th in MVP and came very close to carrying his team to the ECF with a significantly hobbled Knicks team.

Ant certainly has a significantly higher ceiling and can easily pass him this upcoming season though.

He was 5th in MVP because of the pro-NY bias / good storyline it made not because he's that good.

Ant's better. People love to pretend like defense doesn't exist in these convos but once you take it into account, you can't even pretend that Brunson > Ant... Also if the league stops giving Brunson the old Trae Young calls, you're going to see a serious dropoff in his play...

Stop acting like you watch the Knicks man. You've admitted before that you don't and that you just like to hate. I bet you don't watch the Wolves either.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=forall&year_min=2024&year_max=2024&player_id1=brunsja01&player_id2=edwaran01

Statistically it's hard to argue against Brunson. Brunson is a much better offensive player and an average defensive player for his size. Edwards is a better defensive player.

1. I have corrected you on this multiple times.

2. I don't "like to hate" (it's important to remember that just because someone disagrees with you it doesn't mean they are a "hater", differences of opinion are OK).

3. I have watched the Wolves (but I'm also not going to claim I watch 82 games of every team in the league, as that's kindergarten playground type silly talk and would be an incredible waste of time if true ).

[Scalabrine]

He was 5th in MVP because of the pro-NY bias / good storyline it made not because he's that good.

Ant's better. People love to pretend like defense doesn't exist in these convos but once you take it into account, you can't even pretend that Brunson > Ant... Also if the league stops giving Brunson the old Trae Young calls, you're going to see a serious dropoff in his play...

Stop acting like you watch the Knicks man. You've admitted before that you don't and that you just like to hate. I bet you don't watch the Wolves either.

https://stathead.com/basketball/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=forall&year_min=2024&year_max=2024&player_id1=brunsja01&player_id2=edwaran01

Statistically it's hard to argue against Brunson. Brunson is a much better offensive player and an average defensive player for his size. Edwards is a better defensive player.

1. I have corrected you on this multiple times.

2. I don't "like to hate" (it's important to remember that just because someone disagrees with you it doesn't mean they are a "hater", differences of opinion are OK).

3. I have watched the Wolves (but I'm also not going to claim I watch 82 games of every team in the league, as that's kindergarten playground type silly talk and would be an incredible waste of time if true ).

You never said something along the lines of "you don't want the Knicks and you just like to hate?"

Okay then...