Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

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Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Tue Sep 17, 2024 4:31 pm

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1971-72.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 12:30pm EST on Friday, September 20th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#2 » by penbeast0 » Tue Sep 17, 2024 4:51 pm

Kareem has another monster year leading the NBA in scoring and the Bucks to the second best record, Ortg, and Drtg in the league but the Lakers are the best in all those categories and win the title with Wilt in a big bounce back year leading the NBA in rebounding and West, in addition to his scoring, leading the league in assists.

Chicago has another under the radar big year with the 3rd best record but a lot of very good players rather than giant stars and in the same division as the Bucks. Boston another came back led by Cowens and Havlicek (and Silas, White, and Chaney all getting much media love, more than the Chicago stars).

The Warriors, Suns, Knicks, and Sonics were the other teams over .500 as the Bullets slipped badly with Gus Johnson injured and done and PF by committee not working.

In the ABA, Artis Gilmore comes in and wins MVP and ROY, joining Wilt and Unseld as the only players in NBA history ever to accomplish that feat but Indiana comes back to win the title despite Utah having the big regular season this year. Gilmore joins Daniels (title) and Beaty (regular season best) as the best in the league this year though Rick Barry scoring 30+ and playing in New York gets the most love among casuals despite New York's mediocre performance as a team. I think Artis could be a top 3 star in either league this year. Unlike Spencer Haywood in Denver, I really believe in his defensive value in his Kentucky years.

1. Kareem -- still the best
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Walt Frazier
4. Artis Gilmore
5.Jerry West
“Most people use statistics like a drunk man uses a lamppost; more for support than illumination,” Andrew Lang.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#3 » by AEnigma » Tue Sep 17, 2024 4:58 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Gilmore joins Daniels (title) and Beaty (regular season best) as the best in the league this year though Rick Barry scoring 30+ and playing in New York gets the most love among casuals despite New York's mediocre performance as a team.

The mediocre team performance of going on the road and upsetting Gilmore’s heavily favoured Colonels, as well as Erving’s Squires? Extraordinarily difficult not to see Barry as the top player in the Finals, and similarly difficult to ignore how Mel yet again faded (now not even leading his team in rebounds) while yet another teammate was awarded as the top postseason performer.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#4 » by AEnigma » Tue Sep 17, 2024 5:08 pm

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Walt Frazier
2. Jerry West
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


West would have been my regular season pick, but Frazier was so much better in the postseason that he takes the lead. Kareem struggles more against Thurmond than he did the prior year, and his limited playmaking is felt with Oscar’s injury.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Nate Thurmond
3. Artis Gilmore


Definite top three for me. Thurmond and Wilt are close, but defer to Wilt based on season-long accomplishment. Thurmond’s best chance at this award (after the 1967 loss) will be next season. And then Gilmore has the impressive shotblocking and defensive turnaround, but postseason failure holds him down.

Player of the Year

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Walt Frazier
4. Artis Gilmore
5. Nate Thurmond


Comfortable with the top three. Kareem is the best player but was significantly disadvantaged against the Lakers, Wilt was the best player on a historically elite team, and Frazier brought his team back to the Finals after losing his best teammate — and then he yet again comfortably outplayed West.

In the ABA, three strong candidates among Gilmore (best regular season), Barry (most accomplished postseason), and Erving (best postseason performer). In the NBA, I am considering West and also Thurmond, who outplayed Kareem in their head-to-head series.
ThaRegul8r wrote:1972 Western Conference Semifinals - Milwaukee Bucks (63-19) vs. Golden State Warriors (51-31)

Game 1: Golden State won 117-106 to take a 1-0 lead. Jim Barnett led Golden State with 30 points, Jeff Mullins had 29, Nate Thurmond had 22 points and 20 rebounds, and Cazzie Russell had 21. Jabbar had 28 points (13-29 FG) and 15 rebounds. “The key to the game was Thurmond’s play [...]” (The Dispatch, Mar. 29, 1972).

Game 2: Milwaukee won Game 2 118-93 to tie the series at 1-1. Jabbar led the Bucks with 25 points (12-27 FG, 1-2 FT), nine in the third quarter, grabbed a game-high 22 rebounds and had eight assists in 46 minutes. Curtis Perry had 22 points (10-14 FG) and nine rebounds, and Bob Dandridge had 21 (9-16 FG). Oscar Robertson had 17 points (8-14 FG), nine assists and seven rebounds. Nate Thurmond scored a game-high 32 points (13-24 FG), and grabbed 18 rebounds. Milwaukee shot 54-for-105 (51.4%), and Golden State 39-for-99 (39.4%).

Game 3: Milwaukee won 122-94 to take a 2-1 lead. Kareem had 23 points (10-26 FG, 3-5 FT), 16 rebounds and five assists, Dandridge 23 points (8-12 FG, 7-8 FT) and five rebounds, Allen 21 points (10-16 FG) and Robertson 20 points (9-19 FG), nine rebounds and 14 assists. “The Warriors also failed to penetrate the Kareem Abdul-Jabbar led defense Thursday night, losing 118-103 in Milwaukee. ‘The big guy Jabbar intimidates you,’ said Jeff Mullins, who averaged 21.5 in the opening two games but scored only four Saturday. ‘You’re always looking for him instead of concentrating on the basket’” (St. Petersburg Times, Apr. 3, 1972). Nate Thurmond had 21 points (10-24 FG) and a game-high 21 rebounds to lead Golden State.

Game 4: Milwaukee won Game 106-99 behind 31 points and 11 rebounds from Bob Dandridge to take a 3-1 series lead. Greg Perry had 17 points and 12 rebounds, Oscar Robertson 11 points and 11 assists.
Jabbar, although bagging 20 rebounds and blocking shots, was held to his season low of 15 points as he hit on only 6 of 17 shots against the rugged Nate Thurmond. His career low was 13 in his first pro season against Cincinnati, and Thurmond held him to 16 that same season. His other lows were 17 against Thurmond and against Buffalo.

[…]

Thurmond, who held Jabbar to a 24 point average during the regular season compared to his league high 34.8 mark, continues to hold a statistical edge over the NBA’s most valuable player. Nate has 101 rebounds to Jabbar’s 91 and 74 rebounds to 73.
(http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KdAVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cREEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4594,1600368" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Jim Barnett scored 29 and Nate Thurmond scored 26 for Golden State.

Game 5: Milwaukee won 108-100 to take the series. “In Thursday night’s victory the Bucks played without reserve guards Wally Jones and Jon McGlocklin and with regular Oscar Robertson at only half strength because of an abdominal strain. Jones is sidelined with a foot injury and McGlocklin is out with a strained back.

“With Robertson slowed by injury and Golden State’s Nate Thurmond continuing his fine defensive work on Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, the Bucks rallied behind the shooting of Bob Dandridge and Lucius Allen to defeat the Warriors for the fourth straight time” (The Bulletin, Apr. 7, 1972).

Bob Dandridge had 29 points (12-26 FG, 5-6 FT) and five rebounds, Allen 24 points (7-18 FG, 10-13 FT), six rebounds and five assists, Abdul-Jabbar 23 points (8-22 FG, 7-10 FT), 22 rebounds and three steals, and Robertson had 19 points (7-14 FG, 5-5 FT), six rebounds and eight assists. Thurmond led Golden State with 26 points (10-23 FG, 6-8 FT), 15 rebounds and seven assists, and Barnett had 21 points and six assists.

“Thurmond climaxed an outstanding five game performance against Abdul-Jabbar by scoring 26 points and finishing with a 127-114 edge. When he left the game with 34 seconds to play, the fans gave him a standing ovation that didn’t subside until Joe Ellis had taken two of three free throws. ‘It was chilling,’ said the appreciative Thurmond afterward. ‘It gave me a wonderful feeling’” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 6, 1972). “Abdul-Jabbar shot only .405 for the series, compared with .574 for the regular season […]. Nobody has ever outplayed Abdul-Jabbar over so long a stretch before” (The Milwaukee Journal, Apr. 6, 1972).

This is what I was referring to in the discussion of last season. Thurmond held Kareem to 13/29 (44.9%), 12/27 (44.4%), 10/26 (38.5%), 6/17 (35.3%), and 8/22 (36.4%) shooting.

Doing that to my clear player of the year is enough to secure a position on the ballot. I want some ABA representation, so among the three, I suppose I will lean Gilmore, because he is the only one I can reasonably envision being better than Thurmond in the NBA this year, and while he was a victim of a serious upset, I do not see much to indicate he was at fault for the rest of his team’s underperformance.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#5 » by Djoker » Tue Sep 17, 2024 5:35 pm

There is some evidence that Bucks with a healthy Oscar this year could have taken out the Lakers. Although despite that, the Bucks actually outscored them in the series and lost three games by a combined 8 points.

Bucks before and after Oscar injury (64 games)

50-14 record
MOV of 12.87 (NBA Record pace by far!)

Bucks during Oscar injury (18 games)

*this includes 17 games he completely missed after he got injured in on Feb. 4 plus the game on Feb 18 against Philly where he tried playing but was a complete shell and then took off almost two more weeks after.

13-5 record
MOV of 5.06

Quite a dramatic difference in MOV and definitely evidence that Oscar was a big difference maker. The only reason the Bucks could stay afloat and still be a good team without Oscar is Kareem's insane level of play. In those aforementioned 18 games without the Big O Kareem averaged 39.9/16.1/6.0 on 62.7 %TS (+12.3 rTS). Holy moly guacamole! Kareem didn't slack off. You won't find many 20-game stretches more dominant than that in NBA history. Included there was a 50-pointer on Wilt and two 50-pointers on Dave Cowens.

Oscar of course was a complete shell in the playoffs because of his abdominal strain including the WCF against the Lakers.

Veteran guard Oscar Robertson has been bothered by pulled and inflamed abdominal muscles since early February. He returned to nearly fulltime action in the Bucks 4-1 victory over the Golden State Warriors in the first playoff round, but said afterward he was below par. "I couldn't go out and run, and couldn't start and drive," he said "I could just position and maneuver."


Oscar vs Lakers 1972 WCF:

Game 1: 9/4/10 (4/16, 1/2)
Game 2: 10/8/7 (4/6, 2/3) - 1 point Bucks loss
Game 3: 18/7/5 (7/16, 4/6)
Game 4: 6/7/10 (3/12, 0/0)
Game 5: 9/5/2 (3/7, 3/3)
Game 6: 2/1/0 (1/4, 0/0) - 4 point Bucks loss

Series Average: 9.0 ppg, 5.3 rpg, 5.7 apg on 40.2 %TS (-7.1 rTS)


To make matters worse two key back-up guards John McGlocklin (4th best player) and Wali Jones were completely useless because of injuries with Jon missing a few games in the WCF as well.

The two top reserve guards, Jon McGlocklin and Wally Jones, are both ailing. McGlocklin missed the Golden State series with strained back muscles and may miss the first week—four games—of the Laker series. Jones sat out Thursday night’s game with pulled ligaments in his left foot, and it isn’t known how much he’ll play Sunday.


And here is the article that has the quotes above and details the Bucks' injuries:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=AV80AAAAIBAJ&sjid=M5wEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6971,1413423
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#6 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:10 pm

Not the most convincing post-season of Kareem's career but he was by far the best player in the regular season and it's not like his performance in the play-offs was terrible either. Wilt is the only one who I think has an argument over Kareem this season as his defense was once again immaculate and he led the Lakers to a ring despite West's shooting struggles. I'm still quite heavily leaning Kareem though as Oscar's decline was way more severe than that of West and I don't think Wilt's defensive advantage is such an outlier that it outweighs Kareem's 2-way dominance.

Frazier is pretty much locked in at 3 for me. He had a strong and probably somewhat underrated regular season before having arguably the best play-off run of anyone.

Not quite sure what to do with West as his regular season was definitely top 3 but his play-offs left a lot to be desired. The Lakers still won the title though but the offense definitely had a dip in the play-offs, which suggests his scoring struggles negatively impacted the team on that end and they ended up primarily winning with defense.

From the ABA I think Artis Gilmore and Julius Erving have the best chance to make my ballot. Gilmore put the ABA on notice in the regular season but wasn't nearly as dominant in a first round loss. Gilmore vs West might be an interesting one. Julius Erving has a case to be lifted over both of them imo as his post-season was very impressive and it's not like he didn't have a strong regular season himself. Barry, Daniels and Beaty deserve a mention but are unlikely to make my ballot.

Others from the NBA I'm considering are Havlicek and Thurmond. So my top 3 is pretty set but the last 2 could still go quite a few ways.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#7 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:12 pm

penbeast0 wrote:In the ABA, Artis Gilmore comes in and wins MVP and ROY, joining Wilt and Unseld as the only players in NBA history ever to accomplish that feat


Haywood did it as well in the 1969-70 ABA season.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#8 » by OhayoKD » Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:23 pm

1. Kareem

He was (rightfully) the unanimous #1 last season and he's probably better this year:
Spoiler:
71 Kareem vs 91 MJ, team and individual comparison
1971 Bucks
Overall SRS: +14.68, Standard Deviations: +2.52, Won NBA Finals (Preseason ?)

PG: Oscar Robertson, 0,186 / 0.213
SG: Jon McGlocklin, 0.147 / 0.174
SF: Bob Dandridge, 0.160 / 0.157
PF: Greg Smith, 0.134 / 0.184
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 0.326 / 0.271

1991 Bulls
Overall SRS: +12.90, Standard Deviations: +2.47, Won NBA Finals (Preseason 4th)

PG: John Paxson, +0.3 / -0.8
SG: Michael Jordan, +12.0 / +14.6
SF: Scottie Pippen, +5.8 / +6.5
PF: Horace Grant, +2.5 / +2.2
C: Bill Cartwright, -2.6 / -1.2


Never said anything about "confident", but I don't really have an issue making probabilistic judgments(uncertainity is fine). Main thing about 1971 vs 1991 is
-> there is no triangle equivalent(Bulls offense goes from +2.3 to +6.5 between the first and 2nd half of 1990),
-> there's no equivalent to the defensive jump(Bulls go from below average at the start of the season to a -3 defense by the 90 playoffs(-5 in the last 2 rounds)).

The Bucks are closer by 1970 with rookie Dandridge than the Bulls get pre-triangle despite Kareem joining a similar team. The Bucks are also still great In 72 in the games Oscar completely misses and unlike 91 where there's no real discernible improvement(Mj's on/off, rapm, defensive tape all looks worse actually)despite facing significantly weaker competition(pistons are way worse defensively and overall in the first two rounds of 1991 compared to 1990).

Kareem's production jumps between 70, 71, and 72 despite worse help(oscar hobbled) and much tougher comp(west+wilt) in 72 vs 71(west hurt). Their full-strength srs also improves iirc. It's also obvious the Bulls were historically loaded when we look at the full-lineup performances in 94 and 95(58-win without Jordan, 52-win without Jordan and Grant), and there's nothing that indicates the same for the Bucks

With Wilt, the issue is the team doesn't really fall off that much without him and then he forms what should have been a dyansty and goes 0 for 2.

I don't have any confidence putting 71 Kareem ahead, but i see more reasons to put it ahead than behind. I am more confident in 72 because it's a very obvious improvement from a season which looks as good to me if not better than 67 and 91 and also looks like a better version of MJ's 90(does better against a better opponent with less help after a more impressive rs), and that's not getting into replication where Kareem only looks better and better compared to Wilt or MJ the more surrounding years you allow into the eval.

First I would like to highlight, that while one might assume the Bucks are over-stated as an outlier by SRS, at least by San's "standard deviation", they were actually a bigger outlier than the 91 Bulls. They posted a higher regular-season srs, a higher post-season srs, and a higher full-season SRS, Both faced weak/broken down competition, but I think it is fair to say the Bucks at least have a case as the better team.

Additionally, while we can't really extrapolate cast estimates the same way we did with 77 and 88, from what is there, I'd say there's more to suggest Jordan was advantaged in terms of help. Now maybe that isn't convincing for you, but that's okay. Because Kareem Abdul Jabbar gets better.

See the thing about the triangle was it wasn't about getting Jordan to do more. If 90/91 MJ was a better player than 88 or 89 MJ, it wasn't because he was out there impacting the game in more ways. It's because he was more effective in a scaled-down, specialized role. The box-score only tracks the ends of possessions. It does not track Jordan facing way less doubles. It does not track Jordan making less plays at the perimeter than Scottie, nor does it track him being less involved in the full-court presses.

Usage rate measures assists(the pass before a shot) and shots, it does not track who is handling the ball and who is floating off-ball where it's very hard to double because of illegal-d. Jordan was, in a raw sense, doing less. There was a trade-off between effeciency and volume even if you don't put it down to help and competition.

From 71 to 72 Kareem also improved his efficiency. But more impressively, he improved his efficiency(scoring specifically maintained) while scaling up what he was actually doing. You know who was seeing their efficiency drop as well as their volume? Oscar Robertson. Injuries started him on the road to decline and yet...
72 Bucks
Overall SRS: +12.34, Standard Deviations: +1.83, Lost in Conference Finals (Preseason X)

PG: Oscar Robertson, 0.167 / 0.134
SG: Lucius Allen, 0.157 / 0.162
SF: Bob Dandridge, 0.148 / 0.185
PF: Curtis Perry, 0.047 / 0.152
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 0.340 / 0.147
6th: Jon McGlocklin, 0.126 / 0.054
7th: Wali Jones, 0.050 / 0.118

#60. The 1990 Detroit Pistons
[spoiler]Overall SRS: +8.61, Standard Deviations: +1.70, Won NBA Finals

Regular Season Record: 59-23, Regular Season SRS: +5.41 (80th), Earned the 1 Seed
Regular Season Offensive Rating: +1.8 (80th), Regular Season Defensive Rating: -4.6 (31st)

#20. The 1972 Los Angeles Lakers
Spoiler:
Overall SRS: +11.77, Standard Deviations: +1.75, Won NBA Finals (Preseason X)

PG: Jerry West, 0.216 / 0.078
SG: Gail Goodrich, 0.194 / 0.166
SF: Jim McMillian, 0.123 / 0.111
PF: Happy Hairston, 0.161 / 0.148
C: Wilt Chamberlain, 0.219 / 0.2


San's srs does not account for health, but healthy the Bucks were better in 72 than they were in 71. In the games Oscar missed, they won at a 62-win pace. In the postseason, with Oscar hobbled(averaging 4 ppg less than he did in the regular season) they got better jumping to +14 while outscoring the 1972 Lakers who rank better than the 1990 Pistons(outscored the Bulls by 3ppg) with Kareem going the **** off.

If 1971 Kareem is not better than any Micheal, I humbly posit that 1972 Kareem is.

Or, put another way. Kareem Abdul Jabbar, at least by "winning", is a better floor-raiser and Ceiling-Raiser than Micheal Jeffrey Jordan.


Spoiler:
OhayoKD wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:Was he really more central than West? the 1972 Bucks were better at full-strength than the 71 Bucks despite Oscar dropping off and played like a 62-win team in games without him. They then outscored Wilt-West Lakers with Oscar falling off a great deal more due to injury.

What makes you think West was a smaller factor than Oscar?


I think that's a great conversation we should keep having. Certainly there's not a question as to who held up better in '71-72 - that was West. So Oscar's basically a spent force before West is...though of course he's also a regular MVP candidate before West is.

Re: 1972 Bucks better at full-strength than 1971 Bucks. Please elaborate. I'm not really sure what you mean.

Well then, elaborate I shall! :D

In 1972, the Bucks repeated their league-wide dominance when healthy, but Oscar missed 18 games. Without him, they played at a staggering 62-win pace (7.8 SRS)

At full-strength, Milwaukee played at a 70-win clip (again) with an even better point differential (12.4 SRS) than in ’71. They collided with power Los Angeles — a 69-win team themselves — dropping the Western Conference Finals in six games in a battle of titans.


Now let's add some context:
Image
Image

(71 Oscar)

Image
Image

(72 Oscar, Regular Season)

Image
Image

(72 Oscar, Playoffs with a torn groin)

Now tbf, everyone's offense is suffering in what was a bit of a grindfest in the 72 series but this is where I think it's important to look at how the Bucks became so good in the first place:

Image

(Left side is relative offense, right side is relative defense)

The story goes Oscar came and turned the Bucks into goat-tier team by unlocking their offense. But there's a few wrenches here:

-> The Bucks defense improves as much as their offense does and is actually the thing they're better at for most of their "best 1-title team ever" run from 71-74. Don't know about you Doc, but I do not think Oscar's the guy driving that
-> Kareem by box or most film-analysis is himself improving as an offensive-player from 70 to 72 and then polishes his scoring-game after a 2011 lebron equivalent in 1973
-> Oscar is steadily declining by box and most film analysis(at least from what I've seen) over this time period

and also

-> 1974

Image
Image
(RS Oscar)

Now you might be saying "wait, the Bucks were not posting amazing srs in 74!". Here's where we need to apply some context:
Image

mote than 3 srs-points ahead of the next best team is pretty rarified air. Let's compare it to another team that was awsome in the RS and then lost to a significant srs underdog:

Image

Similarities:
-> Both teams are probably way better in the rs than they have any right to be
-> Both teams look all-time dominant through the early rounds
-> Both lose a very competitive game to a sneaky good team
-
Differences:
-> The Celtics are >> the Magic(90 pistions+ by sans standard deviation, won 68 previous season before losing in 7 to one of the better near-dynasties in the Knicks who they beat in 5 to get to Kareem)
-> Bucks are the bigger RS outlier(relative to the league)

Here was what Oscar did those playoffs:
Image
Image

Some other things to consider

-> Oscar did actually have a wierdly good(at least by box) playoff in 1973 with his scoring volume(21 ppg) and effeciency spiking(57%!). Yet it was by far the Bucks worst postseason performance of that stretch with Kareem choking(and while we do not have pace-adjustment, the sub-100 scoring would suggest the Bucks were competitive on defense, not offense
-> Oscar was completely out of the picture in 1977 when Kareem leads a cast I've got at sub-30 to a level of performance I think can legitmately be argued vs those aforementioned Cavaliers.

As for I keep bringing up Lebron's cavs...
In the regular season, the Lakers won 4 out of 5 meetings.
In the playoffs, the Lakers won the series in 6 games.
That means that over the course of the year, the Lakers won 8 while the Bucks won 3.
Seems pretty decisive.

...yeah doc, honestly, this seems like a stretch and a half.

In the games that actually mattered all the Bucks wins were blowouts and the Lakers wins were by a combined margin of less than 8 points. His injury was a factor all playoffs and many would argue the refs swung game 2.

Yes the Bucks lost in 72. And yes they won(against west-less LA) the previous year, but the drop between dominance and "dominance" save for a very close loss to one of the best teams ever(by Standard deviation too fwiw) is not gigantic. Kareem probably needed Oscar to win, but that does not mean Oscar was a Draymond, a Wade, or a Pippen(or an early 70's West). Frankly, considering all the above, I'm tempted to think he might have been closer to a kyrie during his bucks tenure. And yeah, Lebron needed Kyrie healthy to beat the Warriors and get a ring in cleveland, but I think we can agree that doesn't mean Kyrie was some fringe MVP.

Oscar was a great player, but I suspect the idea he was still "one of the best offensive players ever" during his Milwaukee tenure might be putting too much weight on what he was doing before. And stepping back, I wonder if we've misassessed Kareem's pre-Magic teams:

While people seem to view then as should-have-been-dynasties that failed to launch. I'm starting to think it was something more like: "what if Lebron stayed in Cleveland for almost all of his prime". Yes Kareem left the Bucks but I do not think it was really a basketball move(and I'm guessing his support was not better).

In this lens, I'd say the Bucks were incredibly successful. And to his credit, when he got an Anthony Davis, Kareem had himself a 2nd great dominant championship run before receding gracefully en route to a dynasty.


TLDR:
-> Kareem's points and assists go up(by 3 and by 1 per game respectively) with basically no apparent trade-off in terms of efficiency
-> The Bucks healthy SRS improves despite Oscar dropping off with injuries
-> The Bucks look like a 60+ win team(+7.8 SRS) without Oscar(those games ultimately being what costs them home-court)
-> They outscore one of the best teams ever despite Oscar falling apart with a hamstring injury (averaged 7 less minutes and 8 less points than he did in the regular-season) ontop of injuries rendering backups McGlocklin and Wally Jones non-factors.

While you do not get a ring for outscoring an opponent in a loss, when isolating for individuals, I think there is value in M.O.V being more descriptive than "# of games". That said, even if you want to go by the games, taking one of the greatest teams ever to 6 with spare parts is a feat rarely seen and hasn't really been seen since. (Lebron beating the Warriors probably comes closest)

All considered, I think it would be appropriate for Kareem to be the first losing unanimous POY (and I'd say it would be even more appropriate if he repeated the trick for the 74 thread).

2. Wilt Chamberlain

Would have voted him #2 in the previous thread so I don't see much reason to move him down when he plays a full-season and leads his team to one of the greatest seasons ever. No real case vs Kareem beyond "well he won" but I'm open to arguments for Frazier.

3. Walt Frazier

Reached the finals without his best teammate and was reasonably competitive (stole a game, 4-point M.O.V) vs one of the greatest teams of all-time after dominating the conference (averaged roughly a 9-point M.O.V and went 8-3 in a narrowed field). The gigantic gulf between the Knicks and the Lakers in the regular-season gives me pause but there is a 91 Magic vs Jordan esque argument for Frazier I wouldn't dismiss out of hand. Of course I consider myself unlikely to vote Magic over Jordan that year, and in this case I trust his skillset more than Walt's for this time period.

4. Nate Thurmond

In the 60's Thurmond had a habit of not scoring much while his team was surprisingly competitive against elite opposition. This year he reverses the trend outscoring (on better efficiency) the (hopefully) unanimous POY en route to...getting blown out in 5 by an average of 10 a game. A wierd postseason in general for Kareem as the Bucks did much better than you'd think they should while Kareem's scoring numbers dropped and his teammates got hurt in defensive slugfests. Nonetheless they do pull off a massive upset the following year(Thurmond's scoring does fall back to normal). Between that and leading a 50-win(slightly above average by srs)regular season effort as well as a robust track-record of being highly valuable, top 4 seems fair in a league still at a relative nadir amidst a changing of the guard.

5. Artis Gilmore

Winning the MVP as a rookie is quite impressive. Perhaps more impressive is overseeing a 24-win and +9-point turnaround (curious how that stacks up to the other best ABA signals). Did so scoring around 10-points more efficiently than any of the Colonels other starters ontop of anchoring the league's best defense (bit of a default assumption for me when I see a center who has a big rebounding edge and whose arrival coincides with a big defensive turnaround).

Massive postseason upset if you go by SRS but losing a close series to a team 2 wins away from a title seems pretty forgivable
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#9 » by AEnigma » Tue Sep 17, 2024 6:52 pm

OhayoKD wrote:All considered, I think it would be appropriate for Kareem to be the first losing unanimous POY (and I'd say it would be even more appropriate if he repeated the trick for the 74 thread)

Mikan already did it.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#10 » by penbeast0 » Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:06 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:In the ABA, Artis Gilmore comes in and wins MVP and ROY, joining Wilt and Unseld as the only players in NBA history ever to accomplish that feat


Haywood did it as well in the 1969-70 ABA season.


Thanks you are correct.

In terms of ABA, I think I rate regular season a bit higher and postseason a bit lower than some other people weighing seasons.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#11 » by One_and_Done » Tue Sep 17, 2024 7:43 pm

Still have Kareem #1. Probably have Gilmore #2. Zelmo is up there too. He and Gilmore both led 60 win teams, largely on the back of their impact. Rookie Dr J is probably in my top 5 too.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#12 » by trelos6 » Tue Sep 17, 2024 11:31 pm

In the 60's, Wilt was frequently dropping 20 something pp75 on +5 rTS% or there abouts, and Bill Russell kept getting voted POY. This was largely due to his defensive value, but also that Wilt's team's offenses were never great, apart from that one year in '67.

Now we see something analogous, however, there are some key differences. Kareem was 26 pp75 on +10 rTS%, and the team's rORtg was +7. A very good offense. The Lakers had the second best offense, just behind. Defensively, the Russell Celtics were in a different game compared to the rest of the league. While Wilt's Lakers were basically tied with the Bucks for best defense. Kareem v Wilt is a debate for '72, however, I think Kareem offensively, was better than Wilt in the early 60's. And that's enough to get him the POY over Wilt.

Now to the rest of the league.

ElGee wrote:Estimated Pace-Adjusted Stats

Code: Select all

          Pts/75  Reb/75  Ast/75    Rel TS%
Kareem    25.9    12.4    3.4       9.9%
West      20.7    3.4     7.8       4.2%
Haywood   20.0    9.7     1.5       2.3%
Frazier   18.8    5.4     4.7       7.2%
Havlicek  18.4    5.5     5.0       0.8%
Thurmond  15.8    11.9    2.1      -1.2%
Wilt      10.8    14.1    2.9       10.6
ABA
Barry     23.6    5.6     3.1       3.1%
Erving    21.3    12.3    3.1       2.6%
Gilmore   18.6    13.9    2.1       10.1%


The usual suspects fails to include Chet Walker. I think he deserves a mention for his 22 pp75 on +8 rTS%. Chicago's offense was pretty good. Bob Love was also scoring in volume, but at a far worse efficiency. Oscar starts to age, despite still being a terrific passer, his scoring game is starting to lose efficiency and volume. Van Lier drives a good offense in Chicago, but that team had a few weapons. Jerry West was a step down from his heights, but deserves some consideration, as these Lakers seasons are his peak as a playmaker. Tiny Archibald and Havlicek are also players having some fine years offensively, where their teams were mid pack offensively. Artis Gilmore did a Wilt with better volume in the ABA. He gets knocked down a few points, as I still think the ABA was inferior, but it's getting better. Dr. J has a great rookie season, but I don't think he makes top 5.

OPOY
1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
2. Walt Frazier
3. Jerry West

HM: Artis Gilmore

DPOY
1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Nate Thurmond

HM: Kareem Abdul Jabbar

POY
1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Walt Frazier
4. Jerry West
5. John Havlicek

HM: Artis Gilmore
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#13 » by One_and_Done » Wed Sep 18, 2024 1:32 am

1. Kareem.
This is the easiest vote yet. Kareem is #1 by a preposterous margin. He was the most impactful player by far, carrying a pretty middling team to contention.

2. Artis Gilmore
He was a deserving ABA MVP, and by this point the ABA was comparable to the NBA anyway. The Colonels won 68 games on the back of Artis impact on both ends, particularly on D. I’m comfortable saying he was the most impactful defender in basketball those years. He’s one of the most underrated players in NBA history.

3. Dr J.
I don’t really care that he was a rookie, he was already leading the pitiful Squires to the playoffs while putting up 27-16-4 on 500. from the field. I don’t need to wait to put Dr J into the mix, he was already better than guys like West ever were in year 1.

4. Zelmo Beaty
5. Frazier

Zelmo led a 60 win team as their focal point, and the numbers in previous years strongly show his value. I don’t think anything changed, people just started noticing more in the ABA. Wilt was diminished, but I’d still take him over the likes of West or Havlicek, and certainly over Oscar... that said, Frazier gets the nod for me.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#14 » by falcolombardi » Wed Sep 18, 2024 2:48 am

Poy

1-kareem: Wilt did well on him but i wonder if part of it was oscar injury making it easier to guard kareem.
All time level regular season + still strong in absolute terms playoffs. If i could confidently say wilt was the best player in their series i would be more open to challenginh kareen spot at 1

2 -wilt, no one else comes close imo. Most important player in a dominant all time title team, performing great in the post season and winning a ring by beating £an admittedly injured) all time team
In a ton of other years this would be a comfy #1

3- frazier, feel confident with him as the league top guard since aeguably at least 1971, and the best player in the only tean renotely close to lakers/bucks

4-artis gilmore. I am unsure how good the aba truly is at this point but the turnaround he caused on the colonels feels like a huge deal so i feel ok with rewarding it

5- thurmond, a player perennially linked to great inpact signals, defended kareem absursly well and probably was a comparable player to his 73 self that outright upset jabbar

Dpoy
1- Wilt- led a all time title tean with his defense. Kinda like his version of 69 russel heroics in some ways

2- thurmond. Probably the most confident i am in any non wilt defender of the early post russel era. Guarded kareem as well as humanly possible

3- gilmore for seemingly leading a huge defensive turnaround in the aba

OPOY

1-kareem not gonna overthink this, the unarguable best offensive big ever until the arrival of shaq. Oscar and west have taken steps backs

2- frazier stood out as a great offensive lead player in a chanpionship level offense in the post season

3- west, dont feel comfortable with any other player as better than even a a bit past his prime west. Maybe barry could be a shot but i wouldnt bet on it yet or julius
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#15 » by penbeast0 » Wed Sep 18, 2024 3:33 am

One_and_Done wrote:...

3. Dr J.
I don’t really care that he was a rookie, he was already leading the pitiful Squires to the playoffs while putting up 27-16-4 on 500. from the field. I don’t need to wait to put Dr J into the mix, he was already better than guys like West ever were in year 1....


I think you underrate the Squires here. They were actually 10 games better the previous year with George Carter as the second scoring option instead of Erving. Charlie Scott was the primary scorer both years (27.1 in 71, 34.6 in 72). They aged a bit with Doug Moe and Ray Scott being less important though the rest of the team was still young but Scott, Eakins, and defensive specialist Fatty Taylor were good both years.

The owner was trying to run the team on the cheap but the team didn't fall apart and become a disaster until a couple of years later.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#16 » by ShaqAttac » Wed Sep 18, 2024 1:53 pm

KAREEM

He a top 3 player ever peaking and almost taking out a superteam with hospital help. tbh I only thought it was oscar. He also carries without Oscar. Best scorer and leads best d. Easy #1.

WALT

Carries team to final without a MVP and takes game from all-time superteam scoring lots in the pos.

WILT

Great D and wins the chip as the best player. Almost chokes with another superteam vs a real goat but he still wins and they cooked everyone else.

GILMORE

Best player as a rookie and craazy impact like rook Kareem. ABA isnt NBA but he prob the best player and he wins MVP so he should be here.

THURMOND

great d and outscored Kareem. idk how they lost by so much tho.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#17 » by 70sFan » Wed Sep 18, 2024 2:27 pm

I missed the majority of the 1960s but as a 70sFan I just can't let the 1970s go without my input :banghead:

Player of the Year

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


I don't think there is much debate here, Kareem is an easy choice with possibly the best RS performace of all-time. Although his postseason run left a question mark, he faced two players better suited to defend him than possibly anybody in the league history and his best offensive teammate was hurt throughout the playoffs. The sheer fact that Bucks were competitive with the Lakers without healthy Oscar shows how incredible Kareem was. In the footage available, it's also evident that Kareem possessed a lot of non-scoring value even with shooting struggles.

Here is an example of Kareem's inside presence on defensive end. His length allowed him to block shots without over-comitting, although he sometimes did (especially when he was younger):



Unlike most 7 footers from that era, Kareem usually played high drop defense on P&Rs, giving PoA defenders enough time to recover after the screen. Also, despite carrying massive load Kareem often hustled on defense during that era - more so than later when he got older:



Of course his main weakness on defensive end was the fact that he often shied away from contact and his body positioning was never top tier. Here we can see how easily Wilt could overpower him and how little effort he made to prevent that from happening:



At the same time though, you can't score easily on him in the post simply because of his combination of length and athleticism. This is a great clean block by Kareem on Wilt's finger roll - not many players could do that regularly:



On offensive end, Kareem's combination of length and mobility was unheard before and arguably after (until Wemby?). Most people recognise Kareem with his famous skyhook weapon, but few remember that Kareem was very nimble even from faceup position when he was younger. Here is a short example of him taking pull-up jumpshot against Wilt:



He could also work as a P&R partner, especially next to Big O:



Kareem usually remained active without the ball, often flashing in the paint for a deep catch and finishing it softly over helpless contests. Other than his ultimate weapon, Kareem already developed a nice turnaround from the right shoulder and he had a jumphook.

The main thing that bothered Kareem was (in spite of what most people want you to believe) not strength, but length. Kareem did just fine against shorter powerful guys like Wes Unseld or Willis Reed - they pushed him further away from the basket, but he usually scored on them anyway, because his shooting touch from around 10 feet was unmatched. It was visible that Wilt's (and Nate's) length bothered him though.

Doubling him in the post wasn't an option, Bucks did a fair job creating space around Kareem (though I think they did better in the previous season, at least based on what we have) and Kareem was very good at finding cutters when the lane was semi-open:



Kareem was also a terror on offensive glass, even Wilt struggled to contain him in that regard. He was just a complete package at this point, truly one of the greatest players in the league history.

2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Walt Frazier
4. Nate Thurmond
5. Artis Gilmore

HM: Rick Barry


Walt vs Wilt is a tough choice, but I decided to give Wilt's defense the nod over Walt's all-around game. Even taking all my praise of Kareem's work, Chamberlain's defense on him was overall very effective and you can watch my videos to get a good view of how rough it was for Jabbar to score on Wilt consistently (and he often was forced to do that, with injured Oscar):





In the finals, the Knicks lacked a full-time center and Lucas was completely dominated by Wilt.

Nate is my fourth choice for arguably outplaying Kareem in the first round:



It's really a shame that he reached his prime without the solid cast around him outside of 1967, I could see him going way further with someone like Barry for a 2nd option.

Gilmore vs Barry is a tough choice, I don't think rookie Artis was close to his peak level despite massive numbers and Colonels improvement. Watching him play before 1975 and in college, I have an impression that his offensive game was likely undeveloped in 1972. I decided to give him the benefit of doubt though, his numbers and raw impact signals are simply amazing.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Rick Barry
3. Walt Frazier

HM: Jerry West


Despite rough shooting playoffs (against two of the best defenders ever), I just don't see anyone approaching Kareem's offensive impact this year. I have long argued that it is arguably the greatest individual RS ever (rivaled only by the best of the best) and it didn't came all from the defensive end.

Outside of number 1, there are quite a few reasonable picks. I think you can make a solid case that West should be in the top 3 based on his fantastic RS (very underrated historically), but I just don't like the shooting slump he had in the playoffs. I am quite surprised that nobody included Rick in their OPOY ballot. Barry had probably his best ABA season that wasn't far off from his NBA peak and peak Rick was just a phenomenal offensive player.

West lost the 3rd spot to Frazier due to postseason run.


Defensive Player of the Year

1. Wilt Chamberlain
2. Nate Thurmond
3. Artis Gilmore

HM: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar


Agree with AEnigma here, this is the order for DPOY. I thought about including Kareem here and it would be reasonable to put him ahead of Artis, but Gilmore seemed to impact his team's defense more (though different league - as always, it's not easy).
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#18 » by 70sFan » Wed Sep 18, 2024 2:34 pm

One_and_Done wrote:1. Kareem.
This is the easiest vote yet. Kareem is #1 by a preposterous margin. He was the most impactful player by far, carrying a pretty middling team to contention.

2. Artis Gilmore
He was a deserving ABA MVP, and by this point the ABA was comparable to the NBA anyway. The Colonels won 68 games on the back of Artis impact on both ends, particularly on D. I’m comfortable saying he was the most impactful defender in basketball those years. He’s one of the most underrated players in NBA history.

3. Dr J.
I don’t really care that he was a rookie, he was already leading the pitiful Squires to the playoffs while putting up 27-16-4 on 500. from the field. I don’t need to wait to put Dr J into the mix, he was already better than guys like West ever were in year 1.

4. Zelmo Beaty
5. Frazier

Zelmo led a 60 win team as their focal point, and the numbers in previous years strongly show his value. I don’t think anything changed, people just started noticing more in the ABA. Wilt was diminished, but I’d still take him over the likes of West or Havlicek, and certainly over Oscar... that said, Frazier gets the nod for me.

I don't think there is a single season in which you could take Zelmo Beaty over Wilt Chamberlain (outside of 1970 when Wilt was injured) and I see no reason to put Zelmo ahead of Wilt in 1972. Beaty abused still young ABA without many quality bigs outside of a few stars, it's extremely unlikely he'd ever reach that level in the NBA.

I am saying this as a huge Beaty supporter, he is a very underrated player historically. I just find your Beaty takes (along with your lack of belief in Oscar Robertson in previous threads) quite strange to be honest.

The bolded part about Gilmore is also questionable. Gilmore is arguably my favorite player of all-time, so I don't want to spend much time downgrading him (100% agree he's one of the most underrated ever), but based on what I have seen from 2nd year Gilmore, it's not likely that he's leagues ahead of someone like Thurmond or Wilt.

Also, I get that young Julius did fairly well in the playoffs and it's defensible to put him ahead of West this season, but saying that rookie Julius is a better player than peak West is ridiculous.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#19 » by penbeast0 » Wed Sep 18, 2024 3:12 pm

70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:1. Kareem.
This is the easiest vote yet. Kareem is #1 by a preposterous margin. He was the most impactful player by far, carrying a pretty middling team to contention.

2. Artis Gilmore
He was a deserving ABA MVP, and by this point the ABA was comparable to the NBA anyway. The Colonels won 68 games on the back of Artis impact on both ends, particularly on D. I’m comfortable saying he was the most impactful defender in basketball those years. He’s one of the most underrated players in NBA history.

3. Dr J.
I don’t really care that he was a rookie, he was already leading the pitiful Squires to the playoffs while putting up 27-16-4 on 500. from the field. I don’t need to wait to put Dr J into the mix, he was already better than guys like West ever were in year 1.

4. Zelmo Beaty
5. Frazier

Zelmo led a 60 win team as their focal point, and the numbers in previous years strongly show his value. I don’t think anything changed, people just started noticing more in the ABA. Wilt was diminished, but I’d still take him over the likes of West or Havlicek, and certainly over Oscar... that said, Frazier gets the nod for me.

I don't think there is a single season in which you could take Zelmo Beaty over Wilt Chamberlain (outside of 1970 when Wilt was injured) and I see no reason to put Zelmo ahead of Wilt in 1972. Beaty abused still young ABA without many quality bigs outside of a few stars, it's extremely unlikely he'd ever reach that level in the NBA.

I am saying this as a huge Beaty supporter, he is a very underrated player historically. I just find your Beaty takes (along with your lack of belief in Oscar Robertson in previous threads) quite strange to be honest.

The bolded part about Gilmore is also questionable. Gilmore is arguably my favorite player of all-time, so I don't want to spend much time downgrading him (100% agree he's one of the most underrated ever), but based on what I have seen from 2nd year Gilmore, it's not likely that he's leagues ahead of someone like Thurmond or Wilt.

Also, I get that young Julius did fairly well in the playoffs and it's defensible to put him ahead of West this season, but saying that rookie Julius is a better player than peak West is ridiculous.


I just want to say that the lack of quality in the ABA wasn't really in the bigs by 72. Out of 11 teams, you had 4 top quality centers: Gilmore, Daniels, Beaty, and Issel, plus solid pros like Jim Eakins or Mike Lewis, defensive specialists like Julius Keye or Gerald Govan, and a couple of young players with real talent like Jim McDaniel or Dave Robisch that needed seasoning. You only had a couple of teams relying on weak centers like NBA retread Lenny Chappell or Ira Harge.
Even in reserve you had the likes of Tom Owens who started for Portland in the NBA for several years. The weakest position in the league in my opinion, surprisingly, was the guard position.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1971-72 UPDATE 

Post#20 » by Owly » Wed Sep 18, 2024 3:40 pm

penbeast0 wrote:I just want to say that the lack of quality in the ABA wasn't really in the bigs by 72. Out of 11 teams, you had 4 top quality centers: Gilmore, Daniels, Beaty, and Issel, ...

Marginal but this phrasing could be a touch misleading.

Obviously teams can put out any lineup they want.

But Issel and Gilmore are on the same team. Insofar as the point is center matchups - that sentence regarding centers (and talking about number of teams) - a Issel won't be matching against centers and 3 teams will have guys at the center spot in your notional top tier and 8 won't.

More broadly to big quality this doesn't matter so much (and Issel can still get some minutes at the position) but with the team framing and the center-specific framing (both) in that sentence ... it's marginal but ... I think worth noting that Issel mostly isn't contributing at center at this time and another team will have to have a center out at a lower (which isn't necessarily to say bad) level.

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