Breaking: Rogers Aquires Bell Stake In MLSE

[Kingsway_fan]

Price of those Rogers bills going up! Although, they don't need to spend 4.7B for that to happen.

Yep, dump all of your Rogers products now and shift over to Bell

Bell will probably be giving out great deals now

bell

BCE Inc. was cut to the brink of junk by Moody’s Ratings on concerns about the telecom company’s earnings growth failing to keep pace with its debt load.
...
BCE has a total debt load as of June of about C$39.5 billion ($29.3 billion) with roughly C$6.6 billion in debt coming due over the next year, data compiled by Bloomberg show

rogers is taking on debt and outside investors to complete the deal. projected mid 2025

Both companies with tanking stock prices... only a fool would tank his own company... but sadly, such a fool runs Rogers....

Does not bode well...

[ciueli]

So many people here seem to think the sky is falling with this deal, I disagree.

1) There was no guarantee Masai was going to be back even if this deal didn't go through. Masai hasn't been doing a great job this decade and it's almost 2025, there's a good chance the Raptors as currently constructed are not a playoff team in both of the next two seasons. I doubt the Bell side of MLSE would have gone to bat for Masai the way they did last time if the Raptors miss the playoffs in 5 out of 6 seasons under his watch.

2) It's not like what Ed Rogers wanted to do with the Raptors would have been terrible, is this team really in worse shape if Bobby is running it the last 4 years instead of Masai having final say? It might even be in better shape because Bobby probably would have traded Pascal earlier and rebuilt the team through the draft sooner instead of the "too late and not fully committed to it" version of rebuilding that's going on now.

Ultimately I don't see the fate of this franchise being all that different with Rogers as sole owner. At least this way it's clear Masai is out at the end of his current deal at the latest and we don't have to endlessly argue about whether he should be kept on or not.

[Zeno]

I think Montreal is getting an expansion team. Bell is going to bid hard.

[MiamiSPX]

Sad times. The track record is clear of preferring controlled mediocrity to risk taking. Was fun while it lasted.

Because what we've experienced over the last 5 years with this Raptors front office has been a series of incredible risk taking moves designed to put the Raptors in the position of being perennial title contenders, right?

The truth is this team has already been run safe and conservative for a half decade and we didn't need 100% Rogers ownership to get there. And everyone forgets that all Ed Rogers wanted to do was let Masai walk after his sky high contract demands and let Bobby run the team, I doubt the team would be in worse shape if Bobby had been running it the last 5 years instead of Masai, it might even be in better shape because Bobby wouldn't have held on to Pascal too long the way Masai did.

Probably not a popular take but not a bad one at all. A pretty strong argument could be made that the ROI of the on-court product is definitely not worth our FO being among the highest paid in the league. Masai being an inspirational speaker, and good friends with a "who's who" of world leaders, has meant sweet F all in terms of notable FAs signing in Toronto.

Masai leaving doesn't bother me one bit....IMO he was always leaving anyway. I just think he is being patient (like we all know he is to a fault, he even admitted this) waiting for the right, huge opportunity. This just forces his hand but I think that opportunity will still be found. Probably full control, and a small stake, of one of the expansion franchises. His name will still operate as a strong currency for the next few years.

My concern is the Raps becoming mired in unwatchable mediocrity like the Jays.

As for who replaces Masai, there is a chance it is nobody. Elliotte Friedman reported a while back that one faction of our ownership group (we all know it was Rogers) floated the idea of the Leafs and Raps not having Team Presidents and having the GMs just report to Pelley directly.

[C_Money]

This mostly sucks because it means Jack is done.

[ForeverTFC]

So many people here seem to think the sky is falling with this deal, I disagree.

1) There was no guarantee Masai was going to be back even if this deal didn't go through. Masai hasn't been doing a great job this decade and it's almost 2025, there's a good chance the Raptors as currently constructed are not a playoff team in both of the next two seasons. I doubt the Bell side of MLSE would have gone to bat for Masai the way they did last time if the Raptors miss the playoffs in 5 out of 6 seasons under his watch.

2) It's not like what Ed Rogers wanted to do with the Raptors would have been terrible, is this team really in worse shape if Bobby is running it the last 4 years instead of Masai having final say? It might even be in better shape because Bobby probably would have traded Pascal earlier and rebuilt the team through the draft sooner instead of the "too late and not fully committed to it" version of rebuilding that's going on now.

Ultimately I don't see the fate of this franchise being all that different with Rogers as sole owner. At least this way it's clear Masai is out at the end of his current deal at the latest and we don't have to endlessly argue about whether he should be kept on or not.

Just shameless.

Forget Masai. This is about one company owning the pipes, distribution, content, and the media personalities of all professional sports in the biggest city in Canada. A Telco like Rogers shouldn't ever own these assets. There is little difference between Bell and Rogers. The only reason Rogers is buying while Bell is selling is because the Rogers family owns 97% of the voting shares of Rogers Communications and Ed has stacked the board with yes men.

[Fairview4Life]

Sad times. The track record is clear of preferring controlled mediocrity to risk taking. Was fun while it lasted.

Because what we've experienced over the last 5 years with this Raptors front office has been a series of incredible risk taking moves designed to put the Raptors in the position of being perennial title contenders, right?

The truth is this team has already been run safe and conservative for a half decade and we didn't need 100% Rogers ownership to get there. And everyone forgets that all Ed Rogers wanted to do was let Masai walk after his sky high contract demands and let Bobby run the team, I doubt the team would be in worse shape if Bobby had been running it the last 5 years instead of Masai, it might even be in better shape because Bobby wouldn't have held on to Pascal too long the way Masai did.

Probably not a popular take but not a bad one at all. A pretty strong argument could be made that the ROI of the on-court product is definitely not worth our FO being among the highest paid in the league. Masai being an inspirational speaker, and good friends with a "who's who" of world leaders, has meant sweet F all in terms of notable FAs signing in Toronto.

Masai leaving doesn't bother me one bit....IMO he was always leaving anyway. I just think he is being patient (like we all know he is to a fault, he even admitted this) waiting for the right, huge opportunity. This just forces his hand but I think that opportunity will still be found. Probably full control, and a small stake, of one of the expansion franchises. His name will still operate as a strong currency for the next few years.

My concern is the Raps becoming mired in unwatchable mediocrity like the Jays.

As for who replaces Masai, there is a chance it is nobody. Elliotte Friedman reported a while back that one faction of our ownership group (we all know it was Rogers) floated the idea of the Leafs and Raps not having Team Presidents and having the GMs just report to Pelley directly.

Speaking of ROI, let me just take a big sip of tea and take a quick look at how much Bell paid for their 37.5% share in 2012.

[Reeko]

This mostly sucks because it means Jack is done.

Bell still has broadcasting rights for the next 20 years.

[OakleyDokely]

Giving one entity complete control over the entire Toronto sports landscape, especially when the entity is run by Ed Rogers, is probably not ideal. At least with the old structure, you had a few people in the room and they had to come to an agreement over the path forward.

Ed Rogers isn't a forward thinker. He relies on a duopoly to maintain his wealth. He didn't want to pay the best exec in Raps history only two years removed from a title. He went as far as filing a complaint with the league against Larry T because he didn't get his way. He voted against the WNBA team. His own family wants him removed as company chair. He's not someone you want leading anything and I don't see how he's much different than James Dolan.

I'm pretty pessimistic overall.

[ForeverTFC]

So what's the next move? Total and complete ownership of all Toronto sports teams? Larry T just sells his shares to Rogers when his time is up? This is revolting. And people saying "Oh don't worry Rogers isn't cheap they spend so much money on the Blue Jays", you know who else wasn't scared of spending money? James Dolan, and look at what he did to the Knicks for the better part of 2 decades. Maybe it won't be as bad as many of us seem to think, but the fact still remains that the guy at the top of sports pyramid in this city is a blithering idiot.

The only hope I have is Larry somehow taking the Raptors with him as part of his '26 sale to Rogers. Stadium will be an issue but they'll work through it.

Otherwise, we'd be worse off than NY was with Dolan. At least Dolan doesn't control the entire NY Sports media. In Toronto, if you are a sports reporter, you either work for Rogers or are angling to work for Rogers. It will be terrible.

[Raps in 4]

The Jays from 2020-23 had the 6th best record in baseball, and made the playoffs 3 out of those 4 years (although one of them was the Mickey Mouse variety due to the pandemic). The one year they missed the playoffs (by 1 game) during that stretch was when the Canadian government wouldn't let them play in Toronto until August. They were 25-11 at home once they were allowed to play there, but had to play home games in minor league facilities the four months prior to that. In other words, prior to 2024, Rogers from a business standpoint had no reason to make any changes. Shapiro inherited one of the oldest teams in baseball on its last legs with a farm system that had nothing in the upper minors (Vlad was a few years away at that point). They turned that into a playoff team again within 3 years.

I'm not trying to white knight for the Jays front office. I think they need to be replaced with fresh minds, and the entire player development process needs a massive overhaul. However, I think people are going overboard with the criticism here. I think the one legitimate fear as it relates to the Raptors (assuming Masai leaves/is forced out) is Ed hiring someone worse, but I think that fear would have been there regardless of who was making the hire. Masai, despite the last few seasons, is right up there with Pat Gillick as one of the best GM's in Toronto sports history, so downgrading from that is more likely than upgrading.

The Jays won zero playoff games during that span, and the team got worse each year as it bled talent without replacing the lost production.

The team was built by adding a bunch of free agents (to get butts in seats), while completely neglecting the farm system. The end result is the dumpster fire we have now.

The 2022 team that had the 3rd best record in the AL was built around prospects the team either drafted, signed, or traded for (Vlad, Bo, Kirk, Teoscar, Gurriel, Jansen, Espinal, Manoah, Romano). They supplemented that talent with veterans like Gausman, Springer, Chapman, etc, but the core of that team was at least equal parts homegrown, if not more. The issue with subsequent teams (2023 in particular) was regression of that young talent, for one reason or another, as well as not being able to produce a 2nd wave of talent from the minors to add on to the existing one. That's on player development, scouting, coaching, bad luck, etc. There's clearly an issue somewhere there, which is why I believe player development and at the very least Atkins needs to be replaced.

The best Jays team of that era was the 2021 iteration that featured two MVP-level position players (Vladdy and Semien). The team then lost Semien and his 6.0 fWAR the following year without replacing his production. It has been a downhill ride since.

Three of the players in that young core (Valddy, Jansen, Romano), were drafted/signed by the previous FO. This current FO has done a piss poor job of identifying and developing young talent.

My point is, looking at the totality of what they have done, it's no where near worth the scorn that they are getting, and people thinking Rogers should have acted sooner in terms of getting rid of them is not realistic. I'm not comparing Shapiro to Masai (the latter is clearly better at his job), but it would be like wanting the Raptors to fire Masai after 2017 because the team kept falling short (sometimes in embarrassing fashion) despite good regular seasons. You can't expect most ownership groups, especially corporate ones, to operate that way. I think expecting Rogers to do something with the front office now is more realistic than it was prior to this season.

Rogers fired AA the same season the team went to the ALCS. He also tried to fire Masai right after the championship season. Ed is the furthest thing from a rational owner.

[Fairview4Life]

The Jays won zero playoff games during that span, and the team got worse each year as it bled talent without replacing the lost production.

The team was built by adding a bunch of free agents (to get butts in seats), while completely neglecting the farm system. The end result is the dumpster fire we have now.

The 2022 team that had the 3rd best record in the AL was built around prospects the team either drafted, signed, or traded for (Vlad, Bo, Kirk, Teoscar, Gurriel, Jansen, Espinal, Manoah, Romano). They supplemented that talent with veterans like Gausman, Springer, Chapman, etc, but the core of that team was at least equal parts homegrown, if not more. The issue with subsequent teams (2023 in particular) was regression of that young talent, for one reason or another, as well as not being able to produce a 2nd wave of talent from the minors to add on to the existing one. That's on player development, scouting, coaching, bad luck, etc. There's clearly an issue somewhere there, which is why I believe player development and at the very least Atkins needs to be replaced.

The best Jays team of that era was the 2021 iteration that featured two MVP-level position players (Vladdy and Semien). The team then lost Semien and his 6.0 fWAR the following year without replacing his production. It has been a downhill ride since.

Three of the players in that young core (Valddy, Jansen, Romano), were drafted/signed by the previous FO. This current FO has done a piss poor job of identifying and developing young talent.

My point is, looking at the totality of what they have done, it's no where near worth the scorn that they are getting, and people thinking Rogers should have acted sooner in terms of getting rid of them is not realistic. I'm not comparing Shapiro to Masai (the latter is clearly better at his job), but it would be like wanting the Raptors to fire Masai after 2017 because the team kept falling short (sometimes in embarrassing fashion) despite good regular seasons. You can't expect most ownership groups, especially corporate ones, to operate that way. I think expecting Rogers to do something with the front office now is more realistic than it was prior to this season.

Rogers fired AA the same season the team went to the ALCS. He also tried to fire Masai right after the championship season. Ed is the furthest thing from a rational owner.

AA wasn't fired, he left because he was passed over for Shapiro as president.

[Duffman100]

This mostly sucks because it means Jack is done.

While I like Jack at times, the singing has to stop...

[hyper316]

I think Montreal is getting an expansion team. Bell is going to bid hard.

I can see Bell and Kilmer Sports (Larry's new company) joining forces for something like this

[Appostis]

I honestly might have to consider following other teams...

[Raps in 4]

The 2022 team that had the 3rd best record in the AL was built around prospects the team either drafted, signed, or traded for (Vlad, Bo, Kirk, Teoscar, Gurriel, Jansen, Espinal, Manoah, Romano). They supplemented that talent with veterans like Gausman, Springer, Chapman, etc, but the core of that team was at least equal parts homegrown, if not more. The issue with subsequent teams (2023 in particular) was regression of that young talent, for one reason or another, as well as not being able to produce a 2nd wave of talent from the minors to add on to the existing one. That's on player development, scouting, coaching, bad luck, etc. There's clearly an issue somewhere there, which is why I believe player development and at the very least Atkins needs to be replaced.

The best Jays team of that era was the 2021 iteration that featured two MVP-level position players (Vladdy and Semien). The team then lost Semien and his 6.0 fWAR the following year without replacing his production. It has been a downhill ride since.

Three of the players in that young core (Valddy, Jansen, Romano), were drafted/signed by the previous FO. This current FO has done a piss poor job of identifying and developing young talent.

My point is, looking at the totality of what they have done, it's no where near worth the scorn that they are getting, and people thinking Rogers should have acted sooner in terms of getting rid of them is not realistic. I'm not comparing Shapiro to Masai (the latter is clearly better at his job), but it would be like wanting the Raptors to fire Masai after 2017 because the team kept falling short (sometimes in embarrassing fashion) despite good regular seasons. You can't expect most ownership groups, especially corporate ones, to operate that way. I think expecting Rogers to do something with the front office now is more realistic than it was prior to this season.

Rogers fired AA the same season the team went to the ALCS. He also tried to fire Masai right after the championship season. Ed is the furthest thing from a rational owner.

AA wasn't fired, he left because he was passed over for Shapiro as president.

He left because the new president wanted control over baseball operations, which he held under the previous president. It was textbook constructive dismissal.

[douggood]

I think Montreal is getting an expansion team. Bell is going to bid hard.

I can see Bell and Kilmer Sports (Larry's new company) joining forces for something like this

we will get another hockey team before nba, Quebec deserves a team.

[Scase]

Because what we've experienced over the last 5 years with this Raptors front office has been a series of incredible risk taking moves designed to put the Raptors in the position of being perennial title contenders, right?

The truth is this team has already been run safe and conservative for a half decade and we didn't need 100% Rogers ownership to get there. And everyone forgets that all Ed Rogers wanted to do was let Masai walk after his sky high contract demands and let Bobby run the team, I doubt the team would be in worse shape if Bobby had been running it the last 5 years instead of Masai, it might even be in better shape because Bobby wouldn't have held on to Pascal too long the way Masai did.

Probably not a popular take but not a bad one at all. A pretty strong argument could be made that the ROI of the on-court product is definitely not worth our FO being among the highest paid in the league. Masai being an inspirational speaker, and good friends with a "who's who" of world leaders, has meant sweet F all in terms of notable FAs signing in Toronto.

Masai leaving doesn't bother me one bit....IMO he was always leaving anyway. I just think he is being patient (like we all know he is to a fault, he even admitted this) waiting for the right, huge opportunity. This just forces his hand but I think that opportunity will still be found. Probably full control, and a small stake, of one of the expansion franchises. His name will still operate as a strong currency for the next few years.

My concern is the Raps becoming mired in unwatchable mediocrity like the Jays.

As for who replaces Masai, there is a chance it is nobody. Elliotte Friedman reported a while back that one faction of our ownership group (we all know it was Rogers) floated the idea of the Leafs and Raps not having Team Presidents and having the GMs just report to Pelley directly.

Speaking of ROI, let me just take a big sip of tea and take a quick look at how much Bell paid for their 37.5% share in 2012.

You're completely ignoring the point he is making though.

The amount of money we spend on the FO vs the success the team has had for the last 4-5 years. Bell and Rogers both made money hand over fist buying the Raptors, but that had nothing to do with Masai, anyone in the FO, or the chip. The entire NBA has had an explosion of valuations since 2013.

So what's the next move? Total and complete ownership of all Toronto sports teams? Larry T just sells his shares to Rogers when his time is up? This is revolting. And people saying "Oh don't worry Rogers isn't cheap they spend so much money on the Blue Jays", you know who else wasn't scared of spending money? James Dolan, and look at what he did to the Knicks for the better part of 2 decades. Maybe it won't be as bad as many of us seem to think, but the fact still remains that the guy at the top of sports pyramid in this city is a blithering idiot.

It really depends on your definition of bad I think. Plenty of people who watch the Raps were completely content with the 7-10th place teams because it was "competitive" basketball. I suspect we go back to the BC era of basketball with the team consistently floating anywhere between 35-45 wins, with no real chance at anything aside from the occasional 1st round win.

Which quite frankly, most people are seemingly fine, with if the last few years are anything to go by. It's not all doom and gloom in the sense of seeing a product put forth on the level of a grunwald/babcock, but for anyone as a fan of the team actually having a chance to win something meaningful, it's probably not gonna happen. But again, that's been par for the course as of late, so I'm not seeing much of a change.

[Lord_Zedd]

Giving one entity complete control over the entire Toronto sports landscape, especially when the entity is run by Ed Rogers, is probably not ideal. At least with the old structure, you had a few people in the room and they had to come to an agreement over the path forward.

Ed Rogers isn't a forward thinker. He relies on a duopoly to maintain his wealth. He didn't want to pay the best exec in Raps history only two years removed from a title. He went as far as filing a complaint with the league against Larry T because he didn't get his way. He voted against the WNBA team. His own family wants him removed as company chair. He's not someone you want leading anything and I don't see how he's much different than James Dolan.

I'm pretty pessimistic overall.

Ed Rogers lack of forward thinking was also why his very own father heavily favoured Nadir Mohammed as a successor over him.

Nadir Mohammed was the one who helped transform Rogers into a wireless company, while his own son was stuck thinking about cable TV.

Ed Rogers literally has no idea how to make money, and is the epitome of a trust fund baby

[Reeko]

Probably not a popular take but not a bad one at all. A pretty strong argument could be made that the ROI of the on-court product is definitely not worth our FO being among the highest paid in the league. Masai being an inspirational speaker, and good friends with a "who's who" of world leaders, has meant sweet F all in terms of notable FAs signing in Toronto.

Masai leaving doesn't bother me one bit....IMO he was always leaving anyway. I just think he is being patient (like we all know he is to a fault, he even admitted this) waiting for the right, huge opportunity. This just forces his hand but I think that opportunity will still be found. Probably full control, and a small stake, of one of the expansion franchises. His name will still operate as a strong currency for the next few years.

My concern is the Raps becoming mired in unwatchable mediocrity like the Jays.

As for who replaces Masai, there is a chance it is nobody. Elliotte Friedman reported a while back that one faction of our ownership group (we all know it was Rogers) floated the idea of the Leafs and Raps not having Team Presidents and having the GMs just report to Pelley directly.

Speaking of ROI, let me just take a big sip of tea and take a quick look at how much Bell paid for their 37.5% share in 2012.

You're completely ignoring the point he is making though.

The amount of money we spend on the FO vs the success the team has had for the last 4-5 years. Bell and Rogers both made money hand over fist buying the Raptors, but that had nothing to do with Masai, anyone in the FO, or the chip. The entire NBA has had an explosion of valuations since 2013.

So what's the next move? Total and complete ownership of all Toronto sports teams? Larry T just sells his shares to Rogers when his time is up? This is revolting. And people saying "Oh don't worry Rogers isn't cheap they spend so much money on the Blue Jays", you know who else wasn't scared of spending money? James Dolan, and look at what he did to the Knicks for the better part of 2 decades. Maybe it won't be as bad as many of us seem to think, but the fact still remains that the guy at the top of sports pyramid in this city is a blithering idiot.

It really depends on your definition of bad I think. Plenty of people who watch the Raps were completely content with the 7-10th place teams because it was "competitive" basketball. I suspect we go back to the BC era of basketball with the team consistently floating anywhere between 35-45 wins, with no real chance at anything aside from the occasional 1st round win.

Which quite frankly, most people are seemingly fine, with if the last few years are anything to go by. It's not all doom and gloom in the sense of seeing a product put forth on the level of a grunwald/babcock, but for anyone as a fan of the team actually having a chance to win something meaningful, it's probably not gonna happen. But again, that's been par for the course as of late, so I'm not seeing much of a change.

Well the major difference would be that the previous/current group has a track record of success going back a decade and actually won a championship. Rogers hasn't had any real success and when he has had it, however fleetingly, he sabotages himself and the sports franchise by alienating the people that actually made the team successful. Best case scenario is that Masai moves on, they keep Bobby and the rest of the team in place and they don't meddle too much in the team's day to day and basketball operations.