Did the greatness of Celtics role players devalued Tatum?

[SelfishPlayer]

maybe because Jokic lead his team with nearly all statistical categories esp with his efficiencies like 70TS% as compared to Tatum who had the 3rd lowest TS% in their 15 man roster for their title year?
Jokic lead in rebounds, blocks, 9.5 assists etc.
I understand that Tatum is a much better defender but Jrue and White have been pretty good ( at least top 3 for their respective squads)even before joining this team.

Jamal Murray playoff stats?

Murray was awesome with scoring last year but only had 4.9 WS compared to Jokic’s 15.0.
Ill take Brown’s overall impact esp on defense plus White’s and Jrue’s value over KCP and MPJ.

Murray isn't even an All Star why are you mentioning Brown?

[The Servant]

Why are the Celtics role players "great" but Denver's role players are being carried by Jokic?

This might be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life.

[JonFromVA]

Why are the Celtics role players "great" but Denver's role players are being carried by Jokic?

This might be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life.

It's spelled out on in black & white by the +/- on/off numbers if more people would simply look at them.

The Nuggets are a dumpster fire when Jokic is off the floor, while the Celtics are still elite. There's some room to talk about scheme, the value of starting, garbage minutes, etc, etc, but it couldn't be more clear in this case.

Jokic *is* the Nuggets system, while the Celtics systems runs great even without Tatum on the floor.

[dhsilv2]

That's great but you've conveniently ignored that Jrue was firmly cemented in public opinion (and statistical record) as a bad offense guy in the playoffs.

Holiday, Horford, Grant Williams, Malcolm Brogdon, Derrick White all had their career best shooting years with Tatum. The question ultimately is correlation vs. causation. I've provided tons of evidence, as have other posters.

I think a lot of people are just confused on what the discussion is. The 23-24 team was obviously the best team of all these clubs, with more success and a better surrounding cast. But the OP isn't saying what was the best supporting group, it's a discussion of how players impact each other (ie, would other star players do just as well in Tatum's role or better).

So maybe let's actually look at how these actual players played with other guys, it isn't that big of a mystery. KP/Grant Williams weren't as good in Dallas compared to Boston. Horford wasn't as good in PHI/OKC as Boston. So someone take some real examples maybe rather than just talk in circles.

Plenty of other great players in the league but imo there is a mountain of evidence JT is an elite player who one of his elite skills is he is a great mold to build around. He is also someone who has consistently carried mediocre bench lineups for like half a decade to great results, has an elite +/- even when the other good players on his team sit, and has the vast majority of his teammates play better and have more success with him than without him (and this past year notwithstanding, J. Brown was for years the biggest example of this anywhere).

Out of curiosity do you have these player's shooting in the playoffs with Tatum on vs off?

That said, the arguments for Tatum as a top tier player is imo more his defense than offense. And similarly, did Boston really excel offensively in the playoffs more than on defense?

Well this is my point, that fans of other teams are only primarily familiar with the playoffs. Comparing these are small sample sizes, eg Brogdon getting carried to 7 games of an ECF with a blown out elbow while he put up a 30%/17%/77% shooting and a sweet 5/2/1 line.

The main picture is these guys actually getting there. No one gets to within a game of a finals as a sixth man playing like that without a ton of help. So no I'm not going to quibble about a bunch of small sample sizes when eg homerc posts a 7 year career worth of data just above and other people can't even read it right.

You've trying to have it both ways. Either we don't take small samples of Jrue having some struggles shooting in the playoffs in the past. Or we confirm Tatum is the driver of his better shooting now. Because otherwise, Jrue has been one of the best players in the league over the last decade despite the lack of accolaids and praise from casual fans.

Similarly, we can't say small samples and then have you including Horford's 20 games on the Thunder, where btw...the more advanced the metric the more it felt he had as good or better impact in that sample than he did this year for the Celtics. In other words, Al's been a quality plus player forever. He was just in a terrible fit with Philly and on a higher than desirable contract given the fit with him Embiid and Simmons.

[165bows]

Out of curiosity do you have these player's shooting in the playoffs with Tatum on vs off?

That said, the arguments for Tatum as a top tier player is imo more his defense than offense. And similarly, did Boston really excel offensively in the playoffs more than on defense?

Well this is my point, that fans of other teams are only primarily familiar with the playoffs. Comparing these are small sample sizes, eg Brogdon getting carried to 7 games of an ECF with a blown out elbow while he put up a 30%/17%/77% shooting and a sweet 5/2/1 line.

The main picture is these guys actually getting there. No one gets to within a game of a finals as a sixth man playing like that without a ton of help. So no I'm not going to quibble about a bunch of small sample sizes when eg homerc posts a 7 year career worth of data just above and other people can't even read it right.

You've trying to have it both ways. Either we don't take small samples of Jrue having some struggles shooting in the playoffs in the past. Or we confirm Tatum is the driver of his better shooting now. Because otherwise, Jrue has been one of the best players in the league over the last decade despite the lack of accolaids and praise from casual fans.

Similarly, we can't say small samples and then have you including Horford's 20 games on the Thunder, where btw...the more advanced the metric the more it felt he had as good or better impact in that sample than he did this year for the Celtics. In other words, Al's been a quality plus player forever. He was just in a terrible fit with Philly and on a higher than desirable contract given the fit with him Embiid and Simmons.

No I'm not I gave you a half dozen guys easy, the other poster had a list of like a dozen guys over their regular season careers. And you still haven't gotten straightened out on Horford's record either so idk what to tell you. Here I'll spell it out, here's Horford's TS added over his thirties, I'll even add in the Tatum season's for you.

2016-17 BOS 1.5 No JT
2017-18 BOS 30.7 JT
2018-19 BOS 69.0 JT
2019-20 PHI -42.5 No JT
2020-21 OKC -24.8 No JT
2021-22 BOS 9.6 JT
2022-23 BOS 48.4 JT
2023-24 BOS 60.7 JT

[165bows]

Horford in his post-Atlanta career as he's aged into a below average volume scorer.

No Tatum, TS added -65.8
With Tatum, TS added +218.4

Oh wow Tatum is really getting carried by his elite supporting cast, jk, no people were looking at Horford as that before he came back but I want it both ways lol.

Edit: Or small sample on Jrue he led the league corner 3PT% through the regular season for the first time (.619 (lol) vs career .404), nah don't think so.

[dhsilv2]

Well this is my point, that fans of other teams are only primarily familiar with the playoffs. Comparing these are small sample sizes, eg Brogdon getting carried to 7 games of an ECF with a blown out elbow while he put up a 30%/17%/77% shooting and a sweet 5/2/1 line.

The main picture is these guys actually getting there. No one gets to within a game of a finals as a sixth man playing like that without a ton of help. So no I'm not going to quibble about a bunch of small sample sizes when eg homerc posts a 7 year career worth of data just above and other people can't even read it right.

You've trying to have it both ways. Either we don't take small samples of Jrue having some struggles shooting in the playoffs in the past. Or we confirm Tatum is the driver of his better shooting now. Because otherwise, Jrue has been one of the best players in the league over the last decade despite the lack of accolaids and praise from casual fans.

Similarly, we can't say small samples and then have you including Horford's 20 games on the Thunder, where btw...the more advanced the metric the more it felt he had as good or better impact in that sample than he did this year for the Celtics. In other words, Al's been a quality plus player forever. He was just in a terrible fit with Philly and on a higher than desirable contract given the fit with him Embiid and Simmons.

No I'm not I gave you a half dozen guys easy, the other poster had a list of like a dozen guys over their regular season careers. And you still haven't gotten straightened out on Horford's record either so idk what to tell you. Here I'll spell it out, here's Horford's TS added over his thirties, I'll even add in the Tatum season's for you.

2016-17 BOS 1.5 No JT
2017-18 BOS 30.7 JT
2018-19 BOS 69.0 JT
2019-20 PHI -42.5 No JT
2020-21 OKC -24.8 No JT
2021-22 BOS 9.6 JT
2022-23 BOS 48.4 JT
2023-24 BOS 60.7 JT

Why do you think this matters? And do you have data to support with THIS tatum on the court vs off in the seasons you're looking at?

Because Al's shooting isn't a big part of why he's valuable. It's like discussing how much cargo space a corvette has. That's not why anyone is buying it.

[Lockdown504090]

jason tatum is the most balanced player in the nba.

[165bows]

You've trying to have it both ways. Either we don't take small samples of Jrue having some struggles shooting in the playoffs in the past. Or we confirm Tatum is the driver of his better shooting now. Because otherwise, Jrue has been one of the best players in the league over the last decade despite the lack of accolaids and praise from casual fans.

Similarly, we can't say small samples and then have you including Horford's 20 games on the Thunder, where btw...the more advanced the metric the more it felt he had as good or better impact in that sample than he did this year for the Celtics. In other words, Al's been a quality plus player forever. He was just in a terrible fit with Philly and on a higher than desirable contract given the fit with him Embiid and Simmons.

No I'm not I gave you a half dozen guys easy, the other poster had a list of like a dozen guys over their regular season careers. And you still haven't gotten straightened out on Horford's record either so idk what to tell you. Here I'll spell it out, here's Horford's TS added over his thirties, I'll even add in the Tatum season's for you.

2016-17 BOS 1.5 No JT
2017-18 BOS 30.7 JT
2018-19 BOS 69.0 JT
2019-20 PHI -42.5 No JT
2020-21 OKC -24.8 No JT
2021-22 BOS 9.6 JT
2022-23 BOS 48.4 JT
2023-24 BOS 60.7 JT

Why do you think this matters? And do you have data to support with THIS tatum on the court vs off in the seasons you're looking at?

Because Al's shooting isn't a big part of why he's valuable. It's like discussing how much cargo space a corvette has. That's not why anyone is buying it.

Alright I'm out. Bro most of this has already been posted, and on Horford idk what's up I can't help you there, this is from like 2009 or something.

[dhsilv2]

Horford in his post-Atlanta career as he's aged into a below average volume scorer.

No Tatum, TS added -65.8
With Tatum, TS added +218.4

Oh wow Tatum is really getting carried by his elite supporting cast, jk, no people were looking at Horford as that before he came back but I want it both ways lol.

Edit: Or small sample on Jrue he led the league corner 3PT% through the regular season for the first time (.619 (lol) vs career .404), nah don't think so.

Boston won the title on their defense. Horford's defense has always been where his primary value was come from.

His O-Lebron has ranged from 1.03 to -0.86 (this season). Offensively this was Al's worse season at least back to 2014 in LEBRON. His value has always been his defense which remains highly impactful.

Don't like LEBRON, RAPTOR paints the same thing. This season was once again one of Al's worst offensive years but he remained an extremely high impact defender.

[dhsilv2]

No I'm not I gave you a half dozen guys easy, the other poster had a list of like a dozen guys over their regular season careers. And you still haven't gotten straightened out on Horford's record either so idk what to tell you. Here I'll spell it out, here's Horford's TS added over his thirties, I'll even add in the Tatum season's for you.

2016-17 BOS 1.5 No JT
2017-18 BOS 30.7 JT
2018-19 BOS 69.0 JT
2019-20 PHI -42.5 No JT
2020-21 OKC -24.8 No JT
2021-22 BOS 9.6 JT
2022-23 BOS 48.4 JT
2023-24 BOS 60.7 JT

Why do you think this matters? And do you have data to support with THIS tatum on the court vs off in the seasons you're looking at?

Because Al's shooting isn't a big part of why he's valuable. It's like discussing how much cargo space a corvette has. That's not why anyone is buying it.

Alright I'm out. Bro most of this has already been posted, and on Horford idk what's up I can't help you there, this is from like 2009 or something.

You can't help because your argument makes absolutely zero sense. You're bringing up TS% about a defensive specialist who's good enough offensively to not hurt a team. That doesn't make him no longer an extremely valuable player. You're over here dismissing Jrue, who had people actively blown away that Boston got him, and why the bucks would rather have Lillard. You're trying to under value proven winners, and you're doing it with TS% when both are known first and foremost for their defense.

It would be like trying to argue Jokic isn't an all nba level player because his defense is worse without a guy like Gordon on his team.

[165bows]

Horford in his post-Atlanta career as he's aged into a below average volume scorer.

No Tatum, TS added -65.8
With Tatum, TS added +218.4

Oh wow Tatum is really getting carried by his elite supporting cast, jk, no people were looking at Horford as that before he came back but I want it both ways lol.

Edit: Or small sample on Jrue he led the league corner 3PT% through the regular season for the first time (.619 (lol) vs career .404), nah don't think so.

Boston won the title on their defense. Horford's defense has always been where his primary value was come from.

His O-Lebron has ranged from 1.03 to -0.86 (this season). Offensively this was Al's worse season at least back to 2014 in LEBRON. His value has always been his defense which remains highly impactful.

Don't like LEBRON, RAPTOR paints the same thing. This season was once again one of Al's worst offensive years but he remained an extremely high impact defender.

Uh Boston just put up the best offense of all time. Please stop responding to me lol

[Tatumfor2]

I'd say he's a bit undervalued. Even without my green shades.

At the age of 26, he's arguably already on the Celtic's "Mount Rushmore" after the title and he's rapidly claiming most of the Celtic's all-time records. That's no small feat considering the franchise's history.

[brackdan70]

You've trying to have it both ways. Either we don't take small samples of Jrue having some struggles shooting in the playoffs in the past. Or we confirm Tatum is the driver of his better shooting now. Because otherwise, Jrue has been one of the best players in the league over the last decade despite the lack of accolaids and praise from casual fans.

Similarly, we can't say small samples and then have you including Horford's 20 games on the Thunder, where btw...the more advanced the metric the more it felt he had as good or better impact in that sample than he did this year for the Celtics. In other words, Al's been a quality plus player forever. He was just in a terrible fit with Philly and on a higher than desirable contract given the fit with him Embiid and Simmons.

No I'm not I gave you a half dozen guys easy, the other poster had a list of like a dozen guys over their regular season careers. And you still haven't gotten straightened out on Horford's record either so idk what to tell you. Here I'll spell it out, here's Horford's TS added over his thirties, I'll even add in the Tatum season's for you.

2016-17 BOS 1.5 No JT
2017-18 BOS 30.7 JT
2018-19 BOS 69.0 JT
2019-20 PHI -42.5 No JT
2020-21 OKC -24.8 No JT
2021-22 BOS 9.6 JT
2022-23 BOS 48.4 JT
2023-24 BOS 60.7 JT

Why do you think this matters? And do you have data to support with THIS tatum on the court vs off in the seasons you're looking at?

Because Al's shooting isn't a big part of why he's valuable. It's like discussing how much cargo space a corvette has. That's not why anyone is buying it.

The point isn’t about what makes Al good. It’s about how JT makes his teammates better.

[dhsilv2]

Horford in his post-Atlanta career as he's aged into a below average volume scorer.

No Tatum, TS added -65.8
With Tatum, TS added +218.4

Oh wow Tatum is really getting carried by his elite supporting cast, jk, no people were looking at Horford as that before he came back but I want it both ways lol.

Edit: Or small sample on Jrue he led the league corner 3PT% through the regular season for the first time (.619 (lol) vs career .404), nah don't think so.

Boston won the title on their defense. Horford's defense has always been where his primary value was come from.

His O-Lebron has ranged from 1.03 to -0.86 (this season). Offensively this was Al's worse season at least back to 2014 in LEBRON. His value has always been his defense which remains highly impactful.

Don't like LEBRON, RAPTOR paints the same thing. This season was once again one of Al's worst offensive years but he remained an extremely high impact defender.

Uh Boston just put up the best offense of all time. Please stop responding to me lol

And we're back to you randomly flipping between regular season and playoffs. Jrue's offense doesn't count, regular reason. Boston winning the title by holding Dallas a 108 offensive rating while being at 111 themselves (about 6 points under their playff scoring and 12 under their regular season scoring). And after holding Indy 7 points under their regular season scoring. All per 100.

Boston was an exceptionally well balanced team, but where they shined in the playoffs was on their defense. With a huge help from Jrue and Big Al.

[dhsilv2]

No I'm not I gave you a half dozen guys easy, the other poster had a list of like a dozen guys over their regular season careers. And you still haven't gotten straightened out on Horford's record either so idk what to tell you. Here I'll spell it out, here's Horford's TS added over his thirties, I'll even add in the Tatum season's for you.

2016-17 BOS 1.5 No JT
2017-18 BOS 30.7 JT
2018-19 BOS 69.0 JT
2019-20 PHI -42.5 No JT
2020-21 OKC -24.8 No JT
2021-22 BOS 9.6 JT
2022-23 BOS 48.4 JT
2023-24 BOS 60.7 JT

Why do you think this matters? And do you have data to support with THIS tatum on the court vs off in the seasons you're looking at?

Because Al's shooting isn't a big part of why he's valuable. It's like discussing how much cargo space a corvette has. That's not why anyone is buying it.

The point isn’t about what makes Al good. It’s about how JT makes his teammates better.

And I've asked if he can support that and he has said he can't. If someone has actual on off data to show the impact, I'd actually LOVE to see it.

But JT doesn't make Big Al or Jrue great defenders. They have been that everywhere they've been. And it was defense that allowed Boston to stop Indy and Dallas.

[Cavsfansince84]

I'd say he's a bit undervalued. Even without my green shades.

At the age of 26, he's arguably already on the Celtic's "Mount Rushmore" after the title and he's rapidly claiming most of the Celtic's all-time records. That's no small feat considering the franchise's history.

I'd have a hard time seeing him as above any of Russell, Bird, Cousy, Pierce or Hondo as of right now. Then I'd also have Cowens, Jones and McHale head. I think 6th at the highest or 9th at the lowest. In 5 years it will be different but those guys accomplished more in green imo. Then you could also throw in KG or Parish as well.

[brackdan70]

Why do you think this matters? And do you have data to support with THIS tatum on the court vs off in the seasons you're looking at?

Because Al's shooting isn't a big part of why he's valuable. It's like discussing how much cargo space a corvette has. That's not why anyone is buying it.

The point isn’t about what makes Al good. It’s about how JT makes his teammates better.

And I've asked if he can support that and he has said he can't. If someone has actual on off data to show the impact, I'd actually LOVE to see it.

But JT doesn't make Big Al or Jrue great defenders. They have been that everywhere they've been. And it was defense that allowed Boston to stop Indy and Dallas.

He provided you the data. You can fact check him if you want.

Can go straight to wins and losses. Boston is 21-20 without Tatum since he came into the league.

[165bows]

The point isn’t about what makes Al good. It’s about how JT makes his teammates better.

And I've asked if he can support that and he has said he can't. If someone has actual on off data to show the impact, I'd actually LOVE to see it.

But JT doesn't make Big Al or Jrue great defenders. They have been that everywhere they've been. And it was defense that allowed Boston to stop Indy and Dallas.

He provided you the data. You can fact check him if you want.

Can go straight to wins and losses. Boston is 21-20 without Tatum since he came into the league.

He wants me to post more so he can misrepresent what I said in bad faith again lol noooope.

Always nice to have words put in one’s mouth though when what I explicitly said is I and others have provided a mountain of data itt.

[Gurton Buster]

Bingo.

Someone who gets it.

Maybe. Saying swap in any other top 15 guy and the Celtics still win doesn’t seem unreasonable.
The one thing that I would say is that Tatums ability to guard every position effectively on defense, beast rebounds and do it all on offense is pretty unique. Not many guys with the Combo of size, length, handles, shooting, and defensive chops exist in the league. So I don’t know about that statement even though I don’t strongly disagree.
Replace Tatum with a lead guard like Brunson, Edwards, Haliburton, Curry, Booker, Mitchell, etc…I don’t think they are as good, and those guys take minutes from White and JRue. You loose defense and rebounding. Do they still win? Maybe, but I don’t think they are as good. Replace him Lebron, Giannis, Jokic, Doncic, SGA…they are probably just as good, maybe better. Replace him with Paul George or Durrant they are probably equivalent. I think anyone else they don’t win it. Kawhi, Butler and Embiid are not healthy enough.
The Cs are stacked though, Tatum is a clear top 10 player, flirting with top 5. Brown is top 20, White is top 30, Prozingas and Holiday are top 50, and Horford is top 100. Tatum knows how to be effective distributing the ball, running the offense and playing solid team D. Its rarer than you think.

I agree with this as well. The Celtics are like the modern Spurs in that they thrive off of having dynamic players. Though I’ve openly called Tatum overrated for those who consider him top five, there’s no denying that he’s a versatile and dynamic team player.
Still, I do think the Celtics could have won it with some other players instead of him. Brunson included. I don’t consider Tatum a dominant player, but I respect that he contributes in multiple ways.

lol are you okay? Tatum averaged 30 10 6 in the ECF and he’s not considered a dominant player to you? Have you seen his career stats, career playoff stats, lmao any metric will show you Jayson Tatum is a dominant basketball player wtf type of metric or statistic are you using to spew out this bs. First team all nba for three straight years but **** “bledredwine” thinks Jayson Tatum isn’t a dominant player lmaoooo GTFO.