Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today

[The Explorer]

I have Kareem in my top 2-3 all-time, so that ain't it. I have Mailman in my top 15ish. He was the actual engine of those teams, not Stockton.

In what way was Malone the engine of the Utah Jazz and not Stockton?

How many games have you seen Stockton play?

I have actually seen a tonne of Stockton games. Nice player, wouldn't be top 24 today.

When Stockton's role started to drop as he got older, eg in 98, the Jazz were still great. That is one of the numerous indicators that Malone was the guy driving their success. That is also how they were perceived at the time. Malone won 2 MVPs and was constantly in the mix, while Stockton's MVP vote was between 7-17 (usually closer to the latter). Nobody at the time saw Stockton as an MVP type of player.

He was still 2nd best player on a 2nd place team, very similar to prime Lebron in 2011.

[SelfishPlayer]

Amongst current players IMO there are elements of what John Stockton would look like in this era. He would be TJ McConnell with the outside shooting ability of Payton Pritchard, mistake free basketball like Tre Jones and Monte Morris and the ability to play like a superstar (draw fouls, close games) in high pressure moments like Jalen Brunson.

[JackZZ]

In what way was Malone the engine of the Utah Jazz and not Stockton?

How many games have you seen Stockton play?

I have actually seen a tonne of Stockton games. Nice player, wouldn't be top 24 today.

When Stockton's role started to drop as he got older, eg in 98, the Jazz were still great. That is one of the numerous indicators that Malone was the guy driving their success. That is also how they were perceived at the time. Malone won 2 MVPs and was constantly in the mix, while Stockton's MVP vote was between 7-17 (usually closer to the latter). Nobody at the time saw Stockton as an MVP type of player.

He was still 2nd best player on a 2nd place team, very similar to prime Lebron in 2011.

One_and_Done has never seen Stockton played. Dude is the only one And1 this post:

When he played the pg position was the weakest, a lot more dynamic pg's in the NBA now. He'd still be great, but probably wouldn't be as much a lockdown defender as he was in his era.

Folks who have watched Stockton played wouldn't have called him a lockdown defender.

[Godymas]

if prime Stockton played in today's league

he would be behind Steph Curry, Luka, SGA, probably Haliburton, and then people would be arguing for guys like Dame, Trae Young, Kyrie, etc. to be at Stockton's tier.

[theonlyclutch]

In what way was Malone the engine of the Utah Jazz and not Stockton?

How many games have you seen Stockton play?

I have actually seen a tonne of Stockton games. Nice player, wouldn't be top 24 today.

When Stockton's role started to drop as he got older, eg in 98, the Jazz were still great. That is one of the numerous indicators that Malone was the guy driving their success. That is also how they were perceived at the time. Malone won 2 MVPs and was constantly in the mix, while Stockton's MVP vote was between 7-17 (usually closer to the latter). Nobody at the time saw Stockton as an MVP type of player.

He was still 2nd best player on a 2nd place team, very similar to prime Lebron in 2011.

Averaging under 10 points in the finals and under 7 points excluding game 1, including a drubbing where UTA scored 54 points in an entire game, total MVP-level performance in the biggest stage, best floor general of all time! The comparisons to Lebron in 2011 are very warranted indeed..

The best engine analogy here is a Subaru that blew its head gasket. Although even that should be able to run a team to better than 80pts/game and a 95 ORTG.

'Pass-first' PGs as an archetype are obsolete in 2024 lol. In good teams there are often other playmakers who can do the job of scoring and playmaking at the same time. PGs that can't apply good scoring pressure in volume (and that's not Stockton and his career 13 ppg playoffs) just don't get to dominate the ball in a way that is necessary to rack up assist counts like they used to. The closest one is Haliburton and he's still a significantly more aggressive scorer, especially pre-injury.

I just don't think they are irrelevant. Mike Conley, Chris Paul, and Kyle Lowry have held on for a long, long time by being players of this archetype. That they are still relevant at their ages suggests that it still has value to teams - there just aren't many players of this archetype coming into the league. I would, however, agree with you if a guy is basically Eric Snow - someone with no offensive skill whatsoever.

It used to be more the expectation for point guards to focus on setting the table, and only use scoring as a counter. Stockton was basically the greatest ever version of this, and the archetype stayed prevalent until the late 2000s. I think it finally ended with Steve Nash and Chauncey Billups. The former was a pure playmaker who finally leaned into leveraging his shooting/driving, and the latter was a pure gunner who leaned into the fine art of floor general-ing. At the same time they were doing this, Rajon Rondo was about to go out of style (guys who's primary offensive value came from facilitation only and had no scoring pressure).

Scoring aggression has become part of the point guard's role. Stockton would have to play a different way because it's harder to create playmaking opportunities without scaring the defense into scoring. Fortunately for Stockton, he was a wicked shooter so he easily has the tools to force defenses to chase him over screens, force him into driving situations, where he can dime people up.

If anything, I think passing point guards are rarer and more valuable now. Besides Haliburton and Luka (and Lamelo if he can get healthy and figure some things out), all the passing point guards are old (you mentioned them). But these kinds of guys increasingly boost offenses insanely more than scoring guards can.

If we actually look at top 5 offenses over the last 3 years they come in many shapes and sizes - most of which don't involve 'pass-first' point guards (i.e PGs which monopolize the ball and generate the lions share of assists, w/o being outsized scorers on their team)

2024:
1st - Boston Celtics - Clear No - Neither Jrue/Derrick play that much on-ball as primary playmakers.
2nd - Indiana Pacers - Maybe - Caveating that pre-injury Hali was still their no.1 scoring option by a significant margin.
3rd - OKC Thunder - Clear No - Shai is clearly not the archtype of 'pass-first'
4th - Los Angeles Clippers - Maybe - James Harden at this point in his career gets closer, but he still doesn't take up as much of the team's assists as Prime Stockton did.
5th - Denver Nuggets - Clear No - Murray is not the archtype of 'pass-first' and Jokic is clearly making most of the decisions there.

2023:
1st - Sacramento Kings - Clear No - Fox is not the archtype of 'pass-first' and Sabonis is clearly making more of the decisions there.
2nd - Boston Celtics - Clear No - Neither Smart/Derrick play that much on-ball as primary playmakers.
3rd - NY Knicks - Clear No - Brunson is clearly not the archtype of 'pass-first'
4th - Philadelphia 76ers - Maybe - James Harden at this point in his career gets closer, but even at this point in his career he's still more of a scorer for his team than Prime Stockton did.
5th - Denver Nuggets - Clear No - Murray is not the archtype of 'pass-first' and Jokic is clearly making most of the decisions there.

2022:
1st - Utah Jazz - Clear No - Conley and Mitchell are co-assist leaders at c. 5 each, none of them have enough primacy on-ball.
2nd - Atlanta Hawks - Clear No - Warmer than some others but Trae is still by far the primary scoring option on the team.
3rd - Milwaukee Bucks - Clear No - Team assists leaders are fairly evenly split between Jrue/Giannis/Middleton.
4th - Phoenix Suns - Yes - Chris Paul at this stage of his career has become that pass-first floor general akin to Prime Stockton.
5th - Memphis Grizzlies - Clear No - Ja is clearly not the archtype of 'pass-first'.

So out of 15 samples there is 1 clear analogue and 3 maybes, 2 of which are from a player who was/is transitioning from a distinctly different role (Harden), and another player who had clear differences but settled here as his career is winding down (Paul). There is little evidence that having pass-first PGs and putting them on-ball with enough reps to generate the assist numbers Stockton did is what boosts offenses today.

[jbsays]

if prime Stockton played in today's league

he would be behind Steph Curry, Luka, SGA, probably Haliburton, and then people would be arguing for guys like Dame, Trae Young, Kyrie, etc. to be at Stockton's tier.

Shows you how much the game has changed. There weren't any point guards the size of Luka or SGA in Stockton's era other than Magic.

Now, imagine Stockton starting next to someone like Luka or SGA. Both of those would be one hell of a backcourt.

[DKB333]

I am Canadian and I am taking him over Nash. Very underrated by younger poster who never got to see him play. He did not have a weak point in his game.

[SelfishPlayer]

if prime Stockton played in today's league

he would be behind Steph Curry, Luka, SGA, probably Haliburton, and then people would be arguing for guys like Dame, Trae Young, Kyrie, etc. to be at Stockton's tier.

Shows you how much the game has changed. There weren't any point guards the size of Luka or SGA in Stockton's era other than Magic.

Now, imagine Stockton starting next to someone like Luka or SGA. Both of those would be one hell of a backcourt.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[JackZZ]

if prime Stockton played in today's league

he would be behind Steph Curry, Luka, SGA, probably Haliburton, and then people would be arguing for guys like Dame, Trae Young, Kyrie, etc. to be at Stockton's tier.

Shows you how much the game has changed. There weren't any point guards the size of Luka or SGA in Stockton's era other than Magic.

Now, imagine Stockton starting next to someone like Luka or SGA. Both of those would be one hell of a backcourt.

There weren't any beside Magic? Isn't Penny like 6'7" ... wth
People seems to have amnesia that some of the best pass first PG were drafted around mid 90s with their career overlapped with Stockton, namely Kidd and Nash.

[jojo4341]

if prime Stockton played in today's league

he would be behind Steph Curry, Luka, SGA, probably Haliburton, and then people would be arguing for guys like Dame, Trae Young, Kyrie, etc. to be at Stockton's tier.

Shows you how much the game has changed. There weren't any point guards the size of Luka or SGA in Stockton's era other than Magic.

Now, imagine Stockton starting next to someone like Luka or SGA. Both of those would be one hell of a backcourt.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Don't forget Penny Hardaway, Steve Smith, Ron Harper who are all bigger than SGA. Mark Jackson was alsoa "big" 6-4, along with Jason Kidd.

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[JackZZ]

Watch on YouTube

You put Dame in that position ^ against Penny, it wouldn't have made much difference.
The notion that Stockton never had to deal with size disadvantage back then beside Magic is absurd.

[DAWill1128]

Being able to pass, facilitate, and defend is s huge deal. Its not like Marbury or Francis won more gamds than Stockton. Here is the thing about passing, you can make the pass because the opposing defense has to honor that you can score.

[DavidSterned]

I think this is a misunderstanding on your part. Alot of people see someone like Draymond Green and say "here's the proof all-rounders have great value". The thing is, Green isn't just an all around good player with good skills. What makes prime Green so valuable is that he's an elite defensive player. Like, a DPOY type of defender. That is his specialist skill. He's a specialist who happens to have all around skills; which is obviously the best kind of player.

Of course you want a player to be good at everything, but a team starting 5 all-around good players will go nowhere. What makes the Celtics so good isn't just that they have 5 all around guys starting, it's that 1 is an MVP candidate based on his potent offensive abilities and the other star of the team might be even better than him in the playoffs. Even their 3rd to 5th best guys are kind of specialists. White and Jrue are elite defensive players, among the best in the league. Despite that, if you're choosing between White or Harden to build a team around you go Harden every time; and I love White. Harden sucking on D doesn't matter enough, his specialisation is still so potent you always build around him over the 'all around good' White.

The only time you consider White over prime Harden is if you're working out who fits better as your 4th best guy; and even then you'd often still take Harden. We also don't rate guys based on who'd be the best 4th man on a team.

That's not a specialist. A specialist is a player who is is very good at a certain thing, but lacks other skills. Think Duncan Robinson, very good at 3pt shooting, and not much else. Or Andre Drummond, very good at rebounding, and not much else. Or Al Jefferson, very good at post scoring, but not much else.

If they have multiple skills, they aren't a specialist. They're an All-Around player. Draymond Green is an All-Around player. Jrue Holiday and White are All-Around players. All very good defenders, but all of them are good on offense as well.


The definition of specialist

a person who concentrates primarily on a particular subject or activity; a person highly skilled in a specific and restricted field.

So players like the ones I mentioned above. They concentrate on a certain skill, and play roles within the team that need that certain skill.

jack of all trades

a person who can do many different types of work.

So players that are skilled at multiple different things.

James Harden is an All-around offensive player. He can shoot, pass, dribble etc. He's like (or used to be like) Steph, Jokic, Luka etc. Other All-Around offensive engines.

White and Jrue are also all-around players. They're good on defense, and on offense.

You simultaneously have too broad a definition of a specialist, to the point where basically every player in the league that is any good is a specialist. And are also capping what an all-around player can be, because if they're too good at anything they must be a specialist.

I went to see my friend, who is a doctor, the other day. She, like many doctors, is a specialist. It doesn't mean she lacks broad medical skills, or skills outside of medicine. We're obviously using different definitions here.

You mean your pediatrician?

[ItsDanger]

Stockton would carve up today's weak team defenses. But he would need a front court partner to execute it.

[Helsbyte]

C.Paul is an MVP calibre player who is better than Stockton at literally everything. Stockton couldn't sniff MVP is the weaker era he played in. It would be like me comparing Rik Smits with Wemby, or K.Faried to Barkley, or Ingram to Durant. There are superficial similarities, but one is a completely different player to the other.

Stockton is an 11-time all-NBA player (2x 1st team, 6x 2nd team, 3x 3rd team), 5x all-defense, and 10x all-star. I'll agree that Paul has a bit more to offer, but minimizing his impact and accomplishments seems a bit silly, especially relative to Paul who has been a 11x all-NBA (4x 1st team, 5x 2nd team, 2x 3rd team) 9x all-defense, and 12x all-star. Those are similar resumes - though with a clear edge to Paul (who also finished top-10 in MVP voting 10x and top 5x relative to Stockton's 5x top-10 and 0x top-5). But the question was what archetype does he fit into, and it is certainly the same archetype Conley and Paul have fit into and continue to fill despite their age because it has value. Stockton in the modern era would still be an excellent player, certainly a top 5 point guard right now, and if he scales up his attempts from 3 (which I imagine he would, assuming he developed in the context of the modern game) he might be top 2 or 3.

He made his 2 first teams in years where injuries and retirements cleared the field. He was not a genuine all-nba 1st team player, in the same way J.Noah was not. Stockton's MVP vote was generally between 7-17 on the highside. On the whole, he was a top 15 type player in his prime. Today, the quality of players has gone up and that translates to maybe a top 25-30 spot. Paul missed out on some all-nba teams due to injuries and superior competition, but he was an MVP calibre player in his prime. He was frankly robbed blind in 08 by Kobe. Stockton was never that kind of player.

Conley is a better comp for Stockton, but Conley made exactly 1all-star team as an injury replacement, so that's not exactly a strong rebuttal to my position.

Stockton's style of play doesn't exist anymore among star guards. To to a star today you need to be able to score a tonne off high PnR. More accurately, you need to be able to create separation with your moves and shake, to create the opportunities modern lead guards generate. It's not even about athleticism, because Harden and Nash weren't exactly speedsters, bit both of those guys had insane dribbling, moves and shake that let them manipulate defences. Stockton was just not that sort of player. He was a pass first point guard who did not beat guys off the dribble much. The famed Jazz PnR would be amateurish by today's PnR standards.

Without the ability to create that separation, there's a hard ceiling on what Stockton can do, even if you think his shooting and D would translate. Personally I feel his shooting is being a bit overrated, given the lack of focus defences had on 3pt shooting back then (Stockton wasn't taking high difficulty shots mostly), but that's a secondary issue.

Just stop it. You are trying take a player from the past and the way he played from that Era and the rules he played with and plopping him down into today's game and using that as comparison. I can name many stars in today's game who would struggle in past eras as well. The way the game is played matters.

[theonlyclutch]

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You put Dame in that position ^ against Penny, it wouldn't have made much difference.
The notion that Stockton never had to deal with size disadvantage back then beside Magic is absurd.

Damian Lillard, stalwart defensive guard of the modern era!

Well, in the same way that Damian Lillard gave Stephen Curry, Jrue Holiday, and Monte Morris their best scoring series in the playoffs, Stockton gave the same to Mitch Richmond (as a Rookie), Terry Porter, and Kenny Smith, so I see where the association comes from..

[One_and_Done]

In what way was Malone the engine of the Utah Jazz and not Stockton?

How many games have you seen Stockton play?

I have actually seen a tonne of Stockton games. Nice player, wouldn't be top 24 today.

When Stockton's role started to drop as he got older, eg in 98, the Jazz were still great. That is one of the numerous indicators that Malone was the guy driving their success. That is also how they were perceived at the time. Malone won 2 MVPs and was constantly in the mix, while Stockton's MVP vote was between 7-17 (usually closer to the latter). Nobody at the time saw Stockton as an MVP type of player.

He was still 2nd best player on a 2nd place team, very similar to prime Lebron in 2011.

I can't even with this comment.

[kazyv]

Lol over doncic ????????

I think he's referring to best TRUE PG...as in, pass first and running the offense, rather than score-first and reacting to the defense. CP3, Jason Kidd, Rondo, Steve Nash fit this mold.

'Pass-first' PGs as an archetype are obsolete in 2024 lol. In good teams there are often other playmakers who can do the job of scoring and playmaking at the same time. PGs that can't apply good scoring pressure in volume (and that's not Stockton and his career 13 ppg playoffs) just don't get to dominate the ball in a way that is necessary to rack up assist counts like they used to. The closest one is Haliburton and he's still a significantly more aggressive scorer, especially pre-injury.

didn't old cp3 lead the thunder to a fairly decent pretty much due to pass first pg play? i'd say there's plenty of teams that could thrive with stockton and passfirst pg play even in 2024

[ShootersShoot]

Top point guards today in no particular order:

Luka
Brunson
Haliburton
Harden
Curry
Trae Young
Ball
Fox
Morant
Maxey
Lilliard
Jamal Murray

Stockton is easily top 10 among this list if not top 5. Only point guards i would definitely take over him are Luka and Curry.

Stockton played 19 seasons in the nba. He played 82 games 16 of those 19 seasons. He was top 10 in mvp voting 5 years. Guy was incredible.

Out of that list stockton is easily top 3-4. Best playmaker out of the entire group and best defender as well. Efficiency-wise he would be top 3-4 of the group as well.

The only thing missing is the volume scoring, but 17ppg and 13apg on 60+% TS is not worse than 27 and 7 on worse efficiency.

[FollowTheSound]

Top point guards today in no particular order:

Luka
Brunson
Haliburton
Harden
Curry
Trae Young
Ball
Fox
Morant
Maxey
Lilliard
Jamal Murray

Stockton is easily top 10 among this list if not top 5. Only point guards i would definitely take over him are Luka and Curry.

Stockton played 19 seasons in the nba. He played 82 games 16 of those 19 seasons. He was top 10 in mvp voting 5 years. Guy was incredible.

Out of that list stockton is easily top 3-4. Best playmaker out of the entire group and best defender as well. Efficiency-wise he would be top 3-4 of the group as well.

The only thing missing is the volume scoring, but 17ppg and 13apg on 60+% TS is not worse than 27 and 7 on worse efficiency.

Doncic almost as good of a playmaker tbh