Masai Ujiri's future with the Raptors might end soon

[One_and_Done]

What does this even mean?

Cade, Franz and Mobley all got the max. Why would Barnes take less money than them?

Because they are due, doesn't mean that the team control option, should be to immediately give a max. Who of the Cade, Franz, Mobley and Barnes are worthy of the max?

As young players, I would argue that Antony Edwards is more worthy of $42m per, than Scottie Barnes. Barnes, will need to have a more impactful year, for me to be convinced that he's worthy of that contract.

lmao how do you think that convo goes?

Masai: "These other guys with worse numbers and not All-Stars are getting the max extension but we don't think you're worth it and you need to take less money"

That should go over well and be appreciated by the player right?

'The day you say you have to do something, you’re screwed. Because you are going to make a bad deal. You can always recover from the player you didn’t sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price.'

That's a quote from Billy Beane, a far better GM than Masai will ever be.

[PushDaRock]

Because they are due, doesn't mean that the team control option, should be to immediately give a max. Who of the Cade, Franz, Mobley and Barnes are worthy of the max?

As young players, I would argue that Antony Edwards is more worthy of $42m per, than Scottie Barnes. Barnes, will need to have a more impactful year, for me to be convinced that he's worthy of that contract.

lmao how do you think that convo goes?

Masai: "These other guys with worse numbers and not All-Stars are getting the max extension but we don't think you're worth it and you need to take less money"

That should go over well and be appreciated by the player right?

'The day you say you have to do something, you’re screwed. Because you are going to make a bad deal. You can always recover from the player you didn’t sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price.'

That's a quote from Billy Beane, a far better GM than Masai will ever be.

lol ok so what should Masai have done instead?

[One_and_Done]

lmao how do you think that convo goes?

Masai: "These other guys with worse numbers and not All-Stars are getting the max extension but we don't think you're worth it and you need to take less money"

That should go over well and be appreciated by the player right?

'The day you say you have to do something, you’re screwed. Because you are going to make a bad deal. You can always recover from the player you didn’t sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price.'

That's a quote from Billy Beane, a far better GM than Masai will ever be.

lol ok so what should Masai have done instead?

Negotiated, and if that failed and you didn't think you could match? Trade him, just like the Thunder just did with Giddey.

[PushDaRock]

'The day you say you have to do something, you’re screwed. Because you are going to make a bad deal. You can always recover from the player you didn’t sign. You may never recover from the player you signed at the wrong price.'

That's a quote from Billy Beane, a far better GM than Masai will ever be.

lol ok so what should Masai have done instead?

Negotiated, and if that failed and you didn't think you could match? Trade him, just like the Thunder just did with Giddey.

How much money should Masai have offered?

What kind of return should Barnes get in a trade?

[One_and_Done]

lol ok so what should Masai have done instead?

Negotiated, and if that failed and you didn't think you could match? Trade him, just like the Thunder just did with Giddey.

How much money should Masai have offered?

What kind of return should Barnes get in a trade?

I mean, you see what's out there and respond accordingly. What you don't do is max out a guy who looks like he's not a genuine all-star player.

[PushDaRock]

Negotiated, and if that failed and you didn't think you could match? Trade him, just like the Thunder just did with Giddey.

How much money should Masai have offered?

What kind of return should Barnes get in a trade?

I mean, you see what's out there and respond accordingly. What you don't do is max out a guy who looks like he's not a genuine all-star player.

The comparable is Franz, Cade and Mobley all getting Max. So, how does the negotiation look? How much less should he get than those guys?

[One_and_Done]

How much money should Masai have offered?

What kind of return should Barnes get in a trade?

I mean, you see what's out there and respond accordingly. What you don't do is max out a guy who looks like he's not a genuine all-star player.

The comparable is Franz, Cade and Mobley all getting Max. So, how does the negotiation look? How much less should he get than those guys?

I don't care what bad moves other teams might be making, only what's right for me.

My first question is 'what is this guys role on a title team', and That's a tough question to answer for Barnes and his weird skillset. I'd probably have traded him. As I said, personally I'd have kept the vets together and optimised a winner around them so the fans could enjoy some 50ish win seasons, then blown it up down the road.

[Sixers in 4]

The current state of the team is a direct result of being reactive and putting players interests before the team. It's no surprise the Raps are firmly in the bottom tier of the league currently. This is a results based business and those results have been terrible lately.

I think it's more of a result of a FO and ownership that doesn't know the direction they want to go even the trades have been schizo like some trades they are trading for win now pieces that need to be extended like Poetl, Quickley, and Gary Trent Jr. The other are trades for first round picks like the pacers trade.

Pick a direction because you can't retool in the NBA unless you are a FA destination. You don't do it through trades and certainly not mixed trades for non-prospects. All you are costing yourself the opportunity to acquire longterm assets and instead taking shortterm pieces that will either walk or lose much of their value after being extended.

[PushDaRock]

I mean, you see what's out there and respond accordingly. What you don't do is max out a guy who looks like he's not a genuine all-star player.

The comparable is Franz, Cade and Mobley all getting Max. So, how does the negotiation look? How much less should he get than those guys?

I don't care what bad moves other teams might be making, only what's right for me.

My first question is 'what is this guys role on a title team', and That's a tough question to answer for Barnes and his weird skillset. I'd probably have traded him. As I said, personally I'd have kept the vets together and optimised a winner around them so the fans could enjoy some 50ish win seasons, then blown it up down the road.

So you would have been fine giving Siakam the max but not Barnes?

FVV is getting 43m a year, OG is getting 42.5m a year, so I guess keep all those guys at those numbers too?

[One_and_Done]

The comparable is Franz, Cade and Mobley all getting Max. So, how does the negotiation look? How much less should he get than those guys?

I don't care what bad moves other teams might be making, only what's right for me.

My first question is 'what is this guys role on a title team', and That's a tough question to answer for Barnes and his weird skillset. I'd probably have traded him. As I said, personally I'd have kept the vets together and optimised a winner around them so the fans could enjoy some 50ish win seasons, then blown it up down the road.

So you would have been fine giving Siakam the max but not Barnes?

FVV is getting 43m a year, OG is getting 42.5m a year, so I guess keep all those guys at those numbers too?

I'd have kept Lowry too. You'll be winning games, and ownership has deep pockets. I also think if Masai wasn't high on his own supply he could have negotiated slight discounts on those contracts by extending in advance. His absurd lowballing ruled that out.

Instead he's spending a tonne of money on guys like Barnes, RJ, Quickly, and Poeltl to try and win 33 games a year. That makes less than no sense. Either blow it up properly or just pay all your gigs and try to win.

[PushDaRock]

The current state of the team is a direct result of being reactive and putting players interests before the team. It's no surprise the Raps are firmly in the bottom tier of the league currently. This is a results based business and those results have been terrible lately.

I think it's more of a result of a FO and ownership that doesn't know the direction they want to go even the trades have been schizo like some trades they are trading for win now pieces that need to be extended like Poetl, Quickley, and Gary Trent Jr. The other are trades for first round picks like the pacers trade.

Pick a direction because you can't retool in the NBA unless you are a FA destination. You don't do it through trades and certainly not mixed trades for non-prospects. All you are costing yourself the opportunity to acquire longterm assets and instead taking shortterm pieces that will either walk or lose much of their value after being extended.

They literally won a championship through trades so I think that's an overly simplistic view point to think there's only one way to be successful. Yes, picking in the top 5 in the draft gives you a better chance at an All-Star but it's actually very difficult to be so bad that you're picking top 5 every year and even more so now with the flatter lottery odds. You can be picking top 5 for a couple years in a row and the odds are you still likely won't end up with a Superstar. Those guys are extremely difficult to find, but just look at the All-NBA teams this year. SGA, Jokic, Giannis, Brunson, Kawhi, Sabonis, Haliburton and Booker all were picked out of the top 10. that's more then half of the All-NBA teams picked out of the top 10. Point is talent gets found everywhere and it doesn't just happen at the top of the draft.

[PushDaRock]

I don't care what bad moves other teams might be making, only what's right for me.

My first question is 'what is this guys role on a title team', and That's a tough question to answer for Barnes and his weird skillset. I'd probably have traded him. As I said, personally I'd have kept the vets together and optimised a winner around them so the fans could enjoy some 50ish win seasons, then blown it up down the road.

So you would have been fine giving Siakam the max but not Barnes?

FVV is getting 43m a year, OG is getting 42.5m a year, so I guess keep all those guys at those numbers too?

I'd have kept Lowry too. You'll be winning games, and ownership has deep pockets. I also think if Masai wasn't high on his own supply he could have negotiated slight discounts on those contracts by extending in advance. His absurd lowballing ruled that out.

Instead he's spending a tonne of money on guys like Barnes, RJ, Quickly, and Poeltl to try and win 33 games a year. That makes less than no sense. Either blow it up properly or just pay all your gigs and try to win.

Who did Masai lowball?

Who could he have extended?

So, you think ownership would have been fine paying luxury tax for that team?

[One_and_Done]

So you would have been fine giving Siakam the max but not Barnes?

FVV is getting 43m a year, OG is getting 42.5m a year, so I guess keep all those guys at those numbers too?

I'd have kept Lowry too. You'll be winning games, and ownership has deep pockets. I also think if Masai wasn't high on his own supply he could have negotiated slight discounts on those contracts by extending in advance. His absurd lowballing ruled that out.

Instead he's spending a tonne of money on guys like Barnes, RJ, Quickly, and Poeltl to try and win 33 games a year. That makes less than no sense. Either blow it up properly or just pay all your gigs and try to win.

Who did Masai lowball?

Who could he have extended?

So, you think ownership would have been fine paying luxury tax for that team?

If they weren't, blow the team up. Masai chose option 3, lose everyone for suboptimal value and then try to crawl into the play in every year. Just horrible.

[PushDaRock]

I'd have kept Lowry too. You'll be winning games, and ownership has deep pockets. I also think if Masai wasn't high on his own supply he could have negotiated slight discounts on those contracts by extending in advance. His absurd lowballing ruled that out.

Instead he's spending a tonne of money on guys like Barnes, RJ, Quickly, and Poeltl to try and win 33 games a year. That makes less than no sense. Either blow it up properly or just pay all your gigs and try to win.

Who did Masai lowball?

Who could he have extended?

So, you think ownership would have been fine paying luxury tax for that team?

If they weren't, blow the team up. Masai chose option 3, lose everyone for suboptimal value and then try to crawl into the play in every year. Just horrible.

He couldn't extend OG or FVV because both their market values exceeded what he could offer on an extension. The only one he "lowballed" is Siakam.

I think he got great value for OG and I don't think Siakam's value was ever that high. Losing FVV for nothing isn't great but nobody was offering much for him anyways when Masai did listen to offers at the trade deadline.

[YogurtProducer]

I said before he owed his entire rep to Pop for sending Kawhi to Toronto and not to LA and got absolutely lambasted by the Raps fans for it I still stand by that opinion

His rep was fantastic before he even got to Toronto.

You can stand by whatever you want, but it doesn't make you right.

[YogurtProducer]

I said before he owed his entire rep to Pop for sending Kawhi to Toronto and not to LA and got absolutely lambasted by the Raps fans for it I still stand by that opinion

He built a great roster around Leonard. Stole Green in the trade with the Spurs as well. The Raptors would not have got past the 76ers if they did not trade for Gasol. Take a look at how great and deep that team was. Anunoby did not even play in the playoffs due to not being available.

Also hired Nurse, drafted Siakam, signed FVV and traded for Serge.

Helped turned around Lowrys career, drafted Siakam + FVV + OG + Powell + Poeltl/Delon who were traded for Kawhi (and Danny Green) as well as Gasol, also traded for Ibaka... and this was all from 2014 to 2018.

Since then he still "reached" on Barnes (great pick), and is now in the first rebuild of his Toronto career a decade later.

But yeah - overrated

[One_and_Done]

I think Masai got suboptimal value for all 4 of Siakam, OG, FVV and Lowry. I also think his Barnes obsession has juiced his value. They should have either kept Barnes in a smaller role, earning minutes, which would have limited the chance of overpayment, or traded him. I really don't think Barnes is that great tbh.

[YogurtProducer]

Masai made many good moves early on, many of which you just named. That’s true of a number of GMs though. There was a time a reporter was able to ask Bryan Colangelo with a straight face “when you touch gold, does it turn into super gold?” That’s how well his tenure seemed to start. Dumars also had an incredible start to his GM career, where it seemed he could do no wrong. The thing about that kind of lightning in a bottle start, is that is wears off quick. Kind of like how a batter in baseball with a hole in his game will get exposed after he starts hot, unless he can adjust. Those who don’t adjust end up out of the league quick. Dumars was one such.

Masai of course is better than Dumars, he has a more prolonged period of success than him, across 2 franchises. However, in recent years he been a poor GM. There’s really no getting around that. It’s not so much the individual bad moves that kill him (e.g. the Thaddeus trade, the Poeltl trade, etc). It’s the lack of strategic vision that has been fatal. He has made bad moves and then doubled down on them. He assembled a badly constructed team, then blamed his top tier coach and fired him. That would never happen at truly elite front offices. Can you see Spo or Pop or Kerr getting let go because of a disappointing season that wasn’t the coaches fault? He couldn’t accurately guage the strength of his teams, and this led to all sorts of failures; in particular, hanging on to guys too long and losing them for either nothing (e.g. FVV) or for less than he could have gotten (e.g. Siakam, OG). You look at how OG, Siakam, FVV, etc, are playing elsewhere, and you have to ask why exactly Masai couldn’t build a playoff team around these guys. The answer appears to be the need to double down on his earlier decision that Barnes is a superstar, something I think there’s little evidence for.

The Raptors have been in limbo lately, and if Masai tries to chase the play-in again this year they’re likely to stay there. They need to embrace the rebuild they triggered by moving their vets. I don’t see the pathway for this team to become a contender, or even a 50 win team, without a major talent infusion. That kind of infusion is frankly hard to come by without top lotto picks. In this respect, Masai particularly reminds me of Dumars. Both were lucky enough to build a contender without bottoming out, due to freak circumstances that are not repeatable. They came away from this thinking they didn’t need to tank to rebuild, and that has left Toronto in such a weird place.

If I was a Toronto fan, I would have wanted the team to keep Nurse, be better constructed around existing guys, and just kept trying to win 50 games a year. With better moves on the fringes, that goal was entirely within their reach. Instead they’ve blown up the roster, but are stuck in mediocrity anyway, with seemingly no plan to get out of it. Just terrible.

What more could he have possibly gotten for OG at any point?

If he had moved him 2+ years out? A pick heavy rebuilding package, which is what he could have gotten for Pascal too. You either hang on to those guys and build a winner, or you move them well in advance and rebuild. Masai chose option 3; mediocrity.

2+ years out? You think Toronto should have prioritized trading 24 year old OG Anunoby?

that is the thing that makes no sense here. All you people slam the Raptors FO for not trading good players who were 24 or 25 at the time you wanted them moved. What team is out here moving GOOD players in their mid 20s exactly?

[YogurtProducer]

Nets would be lucky to have him.

Would be a downgrade from Marks.

Masai has stagnated in Toronto, he hasn't been able follow through on a vision and has not managed his assets well.

He's a good GM but whether it's because of complacency or something else he's not getting the job done.

Yeh, I'd rather Mark's for sure.

WTF has Marks accomplished to justify this much respect?

[YogurtProducer]

Negotiated, and if that failed and you didn't think you could match? Trade him, just like the Thunder just did with Giddey.

How much money should Masai have offered?

What kind of return should Barnes get in a trade?

I mean, you see what's out there and respond accordingly. What you don't do is max out a guy who looks like he's not a genuine all-star player.

Was Barnes an all-star last year?

Would it not be reasonable to expect a 22-year old to improve and become a perennial all star player?

As of right now - barnes is the 34th highest paid NBA player (in 25/26 when his deal kicks in) at $38M. He makes the same as Mobley, Cade and Franz. Less than $1M more than MPJ, Ball, Bam, Bane, and less than Garland, Zion, OG, FVV, etc.

How exactly is he overpaid?