Did the greatness of Celtics role players devalued Tatum?

[Gurton Buster]

I'd say he's a bit undervalued. Even without my green shades.

At the age of 26, he's arguably already on the Celtic's "Mount Rushmore" after the title and he's rapidly claiming most of the Celtic's all-time records. That's no small feat considering the franchise's history.

I'd have a hard time seeing him as above any of Russell, Bird, Cousy, Pierce or Hondo as of right now. Then I'd also have Cowens, Jones and McHale head. I think 6th at the highest or 9th at the lowest. In 5 years it will be different but those guys accomplished more in green imo. Then you could also throw in KG or Parish as well.

LOL. Stick to being a cavs fan bro. We Celtics fans will tell you where Jayson Tatum is ranked in Celtics history—like bro really said parish… you must either not know basketball or not know Celtics history so please stop commenting you sound ignorant AF.

[Cavsfansince84]

LOL. Stick to being a cavs fan bro. We Celtics fans will tell you where Jayson Tatum is ranked in Celtics history—like bro really said parish… you must either not know basketball or not know Celtics history so please stop commenting you sound ignorant AF.

Well, any Celtics fan who would honestly have Tatum as a top 4 Celtic of all time had to have been born since 2000. That's all I gotta say. I didn't even say Parish should be above him so you are really grasping at straws with that. 6th at the highest is what I said. You are telling me that Tatum so far has had a better career than Cousy or Hondo or Cowens(who won an mvp and 2 rings)? Ya, that just means you don't know your own team's history. He's there in the Jones-McHale range. Throw in Pierce as well. 5 years from now is a different story though.

[dhsilv2]

The point isn’t about what makes Al good. It’s about how JT makes his teammates better.

And I've asked if he can support that and he has said he can't. If someone has actual on off data to show the impact, I'd actually LOVE to see it.

But JT doesn't make Big Al or Jrue great defenders. They have been that everywhere they've been. And it was defense that allowed Boston to stop Indy and Dallas.

He provided you the data. You can fact check him if you want.

Can go straight to wins and losses. Boston is 21-20 without Tatum since he came into the league.

no, he gave me one of the most absurd thing I've ever read. I'm asking for actually on court with vs off. Now I know you can get it, nba.com has it, but i also find it hard to get it from there. So since he'd arguing it, I'm completely open to seeing the data if it's there. And since I've never seen such an argument. I'd like him to provide the data since I've never seen an argument for Tatum improving TS% for his teammates.

So he can provide the actual data which we know is there. And if he's right and it's meaningful. That'd be pretty cool. It wouldn't however actually make his HORRIBLE argument that two elite defenders aren't elite role players. But it would at least make this TS% thing interesting. But again he hasn't done that.

[dhsilv2]

And I've asked if he can support that and he has said he can't. If someone has actual on off data to show the impact, I'd actually LOVE to see it.

But JT doesn't make Big Al or Jrue great defenders. They have been that everywhere they've been. And it was defense that allowed Boston to stop Indy and Dallas.

He provided you the data. You can fact check him if you want.

Can go straight to wins and losses. Boston is 21-20 without Tatum since he came into the league.

He wants me to post more so he can misrepresent what I said in bad faith again lol noooope.

Always nice to have words put in one’s mouth though when what I explicitly said is I and others have provided a mountain of data itt.

You've been bad faith this entire time beyond any poster I've ever seen here. Which is a statement I can't even imagine. You've been respectful until now and nice about it. But i legit can't think of anyone ever on this forum that was more bad faith. And I don't say this lightly. There are some flat out trolls I legit think have been far more faithful than this. I've been really really nice about this mostly because I thought this was a good faith argument and I was just not getting it. But we're talking about defensive players and you aren't even willing to agree that they're elite defenders and that was their value. Because there are other players on boston who are better offensive players.

And then even worse...you know..I'm done. I'll just keep posting responses about how bad these arguments are until you just post real stats or stop this bad faith stuff. I just don't want this thread to pop up in 10 years and someone see this and think you made a good point. At this point I"m not responding to you, but making sure this line of thinking doesn't look valid.

[dhsilv2]

The point isn’t about what makes Al good. It’s about how JT makes his teammates better.

And I've asked if he can support that and he has said he can't. If someone has actual on off data to show the impact, I'd actually LOVE to see it.

But JT doesn't make Big Al or Jrue great defenders. They have been that everywhere they've been. And it was defense that allowed Boston to stop Indy and Dallas.

He provided you the data. You can fact check him if you want.

Can go straight to wins and losses. Boston is 21-20 without Tatum since he came into the league.

And you know because I don't think you're coming in here bad faith let me lay out a bit more here.

This guy is debating TS%...as the entire discussion on role players. I'm at a loss. But Tatum is a great player, who's impact his two ways. But since he is only focused on one side of the ball, lets talk about it.

Tatum is an offensive hero..imo because he's a great offensive player, not Jokic level but all nba level all day. And stats have generally backed that!

2020 - +6.4 offense
2021 - +8.4
2022 - +9.1
2023 - +7.7
2024 - +0.5

Now did he get worse in 2024? Hell no. He has better teammates which mean when he's NOT on the court, the team's offense doesn't fall off. he had a negative plus minus per 100 in 2024...and anyone taking that to think Tatum isn't still awesome is stupid.

But the question was if his teammates being great this year lead to people undervaluing him? Well...yeah. That's 100% what happened. his teammate are great and anyone trying to lower that value is stupid. Just flat out stupid. Now, I'm also interested in if Tatum has some great TS% value add, and the data is there. If anyone can provide it, I'd love to read it. But the very fact the celtics were better with tatum off the court vs on this year shows me yes...despite him being an all time great top 50 level guy (easy) this team was just loaded too.

This isn't a question of is Tatum is great. It's if his team quality is under selling his greatness.

[165bows]

He provided you the data. You can fact check him if you want.

Can go straight to wins and losses. Boston is 21-20 without Tatum since he came into the league.

He wants me to post more so he can misrepresent what I said in bad faith again lol noooope.

Always nice to have words put in one’s mouth though when what I explicitly said is I and others have provided a mountain of data itt.

You've been bad faith this entire time beyond any poster I've ever seen here. Which is a statement I can't even imagine. You've been respectful until now and nice about it. But i legit can't think of anyone ever on this forum that was more bad faith. And I don't say this lightly. There are some flat out trolls I legit think have been far more faithful than this. I've been really really nice about this mostly because I thought this was a good faith argument and I was just not getting it. But we're talking about defensive players and you aren't even willing to agree that they're elite defenders and that was their value. Because there are other players on boston who are better offensive players.

And then even worse...you know..I'm done. I'll just keep posting responses about how bad these arguments are until you just post real stats or stop this bad faith stuff. I just don't want this thread to pop up in 10 years and someone see this and think you made a good point. At this point I"m not responding to you, but making sure this line of thinking doesn't look valid.

Bro seriously are you all right?

[dhsilv2]

He wants me to post more so he can misrepresent what I said in bad faith again lol noooope.

Always nice to have words put in one’s mouth though when what I explicitly said is I and others have provided a mountain of data itt.

You've been bad faith this entire time beyond any poster I've ever seen here. Which is a statement I can't even imagine. You've been respectful until now and nice about it. But i legit can't think of anyone ever on this forum that was more bad faith. And I don't say this lightly. There are some flat out trolls I legit think have been far more faithful than this. I've been really really nice about this mostly because I thought this was a good faith argument and I was just not getting it. But we're talking about defensive players and you aren't even willing to agree that they're elite defenders and that was their value. Because there are other players on boston who are better offensive players.

And then even worse...you know..I'm done. I'll just keep posting responses about how bad these arguments are until you just post real stats or stop this bad faith stuff. I just don't want this thread to pop up in 10 years and someone see this and think you made a good point. At this point I"m not responding to you, but making sure this line of thinking doesn't look valid.

Bro seriously are you all right?

I'm good, but you've been absolutely wild here. Discussing defensive specialists, by TS%. Using seasons vs on off with a player. One guy you apply regular season the other playoffs. Just absurdly bad faith.