Lets Talk Handchecking

[BelgradeNugget]

In the old days players played more with their backs to the basket when usually handchecking hapens. As many posters stated it is hard to handchack guards who play faceup now. So I look at Jokic's highlights from just one game to see is there handchacking today because he plays a lot with his back to the basket and here is what I saw.

Watch on YouTube

0:08 handchecking by Gobert while driving sideways
0:21 Gobert uses one hand and one forearm at the same time - it use to be a foul
1:21 handchecking by SloMo with both hands - foul?
1:39 handchecking by NAW on Reggie Jackson
2:05 handchecking by NAW
2:40 handchecking by Gobert in the act of shooting, it used to be foul in the old days
3:40 it starts with handchecking by KAT through hard screen by AG and then a lot of pushing by Gobert
4:07 handchecking and push in the act of shooting by KAT, no foul

Nuggets used handchecking on Minny players too, because it were playoffs, phisicality is alowed.

[the sea duck]

using your arm to directly "move" a player is probably overstated. it's more that if your arm is allowed to be there, you are allowed to have more contact, and so the dribbling is limited and using your arm to not get burned was easier.

dribbling is easier today anyway, but hand checking definitely had an impact on ball handling and body positioning. probably less than the actual officiating of carrying and traveling itself, but still some impact.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Can anyone even explain what exactly people are talking about when they whine about the hand check ban in 2004? It had been repeatedly "banned" prior to that. Apologies for the annoying editing in the below video, but it was clearly already banned in the 1997 playoffs as there are multiple hand check fouls called.

Watch on YouTube

I distinctly remember while playing pick up games at lunch when I was in high-school in the mid 90s a sudden change where we couldn't put a hand on the other guy, but could use our forearm instead. It amused me at the time because we weren't anything resembling an intense high level group, and I don't remember anyone handchecking in our games prior to that, but suddenly the forearm check was all the rage because that was the new rule in the NBA.

So the first thing that makes me immediately suspicious of the unban the handcheck club, is that I have doubts as to whether they're upset about the game as it was. They seem to be upset by false memories.

This is further compounded by the fact that the hand check is alive and well in the modern game despite people imagining it to be gone. Spend just a few minutes of any random game and you'll probably spot numerous instances. That video og15 posted earlier was just a random game I pulled clips from in response to this same narrative a few years back. I didn't have to go searching for the rare example, just pressed record on the next game I watched, and numerous examples popped out.

It was banned in the 90s but inconsistently enforced. It is banned now and remains inconsistently enforced. I really struggle to see how its impact is meaningfully different between eras, especially if you look at the game as a whole instead of cherry picking games and possessions. When I watch a random 90s game, even playoff game, in it's entirety handchecking does not stand out as a significant part of the game that is notably different from today's game.

The foul at 1:02 in the above video happens constantly in today's game with no call. Even if there are some areas where the whistle was looser then, there are others where it was tighter. You can't meanifully compare eras and supposed soft rules if you fail to look at the whole.

Anyway, bottom line is that it wasn't anywhere close to as prevalent in the 90s as some people today think it was, and it is far more common in today's game than those same people realize.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Spoiler:

Also just watched the first 3 minutes of this as a crosscheck and it actually looks like there's a lot less handchecking on face-up attacks on MJ than on Brunson above:

Watch on YouTube

You can watch A LOT of MJ highlights looking for the smoking gun of a handcheck before you actually find one. I watched every Bulls game in the Nineties. Literally, I did. So believe me when I say that dirty play in the Nineties was no myth ... but the importance of handchecking was. Here, watch The Glove. Body positioning and footwork. That was great defense now and that is great defense today. It never was about the hands.

Watch on YouTube

If you're going to say something like that, back it up with a video of Jordan that has no hand checking... I don't know if I've ever seen one.

What I can't find is any hand checking in that Brunson video. I don't think that a lot of guys hear know what hand checking is, or maybe they're just in denial. It's confusing.

What many of you don't understand is that you could provide resistance back as a defender, which made it considerably more challenging to get your shot off in an open position.

Maybe you guys are confusing riding somebody on the hip, where you put the outside of the hand (not inside) on the hip to follow, but that's nothing like hand checking. It's literally called riding on the hip.

You were allowed to PUSH with the forearm in the post back then. Players were actually taught to defend with one hand on the back, pushing the ball handler back and the other to the side, to balance and defend the passing lane.

Anyway, here.

First of all, the blatant lie that you can watch Jordan and not find any hand checking.

Watch on YouTube

:47, right away resistance, hand checking followed by what would be an easy call by today's standards
1:05, right afterwards, right forearm of Kemp, AS they were taught to defend back then (this is hand checking btw) would be a foul today

1:20, right afterwards, once again

So don't lie. You can literally choose any Jordan video and we can pick out all of the hand checking together.

Watch on YouTube

:14 bumped, obviously a foul today. :22 right after, nudged with a hand check out of bounds, no foul. No complaint, part of the 90s game (sorry to say) :50 hand on back the entire time

Spoiler:

And these are two random videos I just chose off the top of my head. Do this for any 90s video and you'll learn about hand checking. It's about the forearm on the back, and resistance. It's hard to notice unless you look for it and actually compare the resistance from then and now. Then you notice that it's certainly more free to the rim now than it was. But that should be common sense as the game has also opened up anyway and we have the 3 second violati


Meanwhile, that Brunson video had 0 resistance.

Funniest thing about this is I have not heard one interview where they deny the impact of hand checking. Every player has called it tough to play against and every new player (international in particular) has talked about how easy it is to score in the league now. Only RealGM posters seem to think otherwise- go figure.

Hands/forearm on the back and hips all over in these videos without foul calls. Same thing as in those Jordan clips. If there's a difference from 90s today regarding hand and forearm checking, the examples you give aren't it.

Watch on YouTube

Jokic at :15 is basically the exact same play as the Payton/Jordan one you point out.

Watch on YouTube

[HotelVitale]

So many players, including cross era players like Nash have discussed the ease after the rule changes. Nash even attributed his success to it in an interview.

How anyone can insist that it's part of the game is beyond me.

It's no coincidence that at the turn of the century, it went from a bigs to perimeter dominated league.

I really don't want to make this an argument where we're both deciding we stand on one side and fighting for it at all costs, doesn't do any of us any good. I'm gonna take a breath here and not continue the back and forth and just say a few bigger picture things to maybe re-center where I (and I think other posters) are coming from.

By far, by far, by far the biggest change from the 1990s to the 2020s is that offensive strategy became 100% propagated on running pick and rolls or DHOs in the middle of the floor around a spread offense with 2-4 3pt shooter on the court. In the 80s and 90s teams sometimes ran picks (not super often) but their predominant offensive sets were post-ups and midrange sets that involved curl jumpers or back-to-basket stuff. The game slowed down a ton into the 2000s (I think because of teams hyper-emphasizing cutting down on fast breaks), and things then changed course from about 2004-2014--when every team started to develop both aspects of the newer strategy. They very consciously tried to space the floor much more than in the 80s or 90s, and they all started to integrate much more pn'r ball-handling into their sets. This was uneven across teams and happened in fits and spurts, but it definitely happened and was steadily unfolding throughout that time period.

That means that the two main things that handchecking impacted--post ups and back-to-basket perimeter moves--went from very common to occasional, while things for which handchecking is pretty irrelevant--pn'r and DHO driving--went from pretty rare to happening nearly every play. So that already means that handchecking rules would matter far less by the later 2000s than they would have in the 80s-90s. That's the first reason to be skeptical about stories about how it was such a major driver of offensive revolutions. (Like I mentioned above, if you want to see the difference just watch literally 2 minutes of any Steve Nash Suns game from like 2004-2006 vs a Steve Nash Mavs game from a few years before--every play begins with a pick after almost no plays begin with them.)

The second thing is that foul calling and foul emphases have come and gone a lot, it's always sort of shifting. From year to year and sometimes month to month or series to series, the way fouls are called and what constitutes violations is being updated, both officially and unofficially (in terms of what the refs let you get away with). There's a history to that, and games this last RS for example were far more quick-whistled and touch-foul prone than they were in like 1998; but that doesn't mean that 'handchecking' is responsible for that, or that really any single rule or change in enforcement over time was. It's a big thing that includes dozens of violations and rules changes, especially around things that were part of the new styles of play.

What people who grandstand about handchecking (like Kenny Smith) want to do is reduce this long and complex shift in strategy, as well as a complicated history of how the game is reffed, into one simple thing: they stopped handchecking in 2004, and the game went from hyper-physical and tough to this 'oh I guess we can't graze a guy's forearm' thing. Both of those things are exaggerated (the game was not hyper-physical in the 90s nor is it all touch-fouls all days now, esp in the PO). The big thing most of us are arguing or pushing for is to keep a long and complex history in mind, and if you really want to stick with the topic, to be careful and thoughtful about how handchecking fits into those two things. Most of us have already done that and put in our time thinking about it and watching tape, and that's why we're making the points we're making. Not because we have some irrational bone to pick with Kenny Smith or some odd hatred of handchecking as a technique.

First, quality and thoughtful post.

I actually agree with some of what you said. However, I can't stand by Kenny simply hating when all of these coaches and players have noticed the same difference in the game and how every single one of them (coaches included) states the same thing about the disappearance of hand checking.

While you're absolutely right that some of the greatest differences were through styles of the game, it's not quite a chicken and egg situation. The rules were created to allow more space (commissioner's own words), and I noticed an immediate difference at the turn of the century, as did said players/coaches. You also had Draymond, Lebron and Popovich criticize the league in the same season, stating that it's "not basketball" (pop) and "impossible to defend" (Dray/Lebron), alluding to the fouls being called.

I also did an analysis back then on perimeter players and how the higher scoring perimeter players all had spikes of 5-7 ppg during the same 2 years. I'll have to find it but it may be lost.

What I don't understand is posters denying the impact of hand checking. Anyone who's played street ball and has experienced that resistance knows its impact, just like Hubie, coach K and the players have stated in interviews. So I can't get by the game just making stylistic changes - the rules absolutely facilitated that.

When you have classy, smart and cross era players like Grant Hill/Steve Nash/Kobe stating this, it must be true.

Of course, the league adjusted and found a new style, but it took some time. But from the get go, it was a noticeable difference in spacing and ease to the rim in particular.

I think you're raising perfectly good questions, what I'd say is that you could follow through each point to the end, take each thing and see how much weight it actually holds. Then go back and see how much evidence there is and if you got yourself a point.

The biggest thing to look at more critically IMO is that scoring did start to increase fairly dramatically after 2004, when handchecking rules were changed (again). But that absolutely does not mean that it was caused by handchecking rules, there's zero reason to make those directly linked. The internet has made that assumption though--there are multiple articles and even a study or two that Google will spit back that basically just makes the one equal the other. You simply cannot make that leap, and you simply must look for specific evidence and explanations for how handchecking was part of the change in offense.

The other important thing to set aside here is that the NBA absolutely did want to increase scoring after the crazy low-scoring early 2000s. That's true, but again the fact that they wanted that, and also called for some changes to handchecking at the time, doesn't tell you anything about if or how much handchecking led to the new offensive system. (It's like all the BS around inflation that both parties are doing, none of their little actions are going to end inflation but if it gets better they'll sure af take credit for it). Still have to look carefully and find your evidence and explanations.

The other thing to be skeptical/cautious about is how much you're putting into player and coach comments. I tend to not listen to them at all at this point just because there's been so, so, SO many bad takes from former players, but I also think it's fair to look at the list you have and assume it's worth at least looking into the statements they made. I'd suggest two things: first going through and seeing what they're really saying, since I think lots of them are just complaining that the league eased up a lot around that time and use handchecking as an example. They're not actually saying 'I believe that historically speaking handchecking and not other things is responsible for the shift in strategy from 2005-15' and most of them have no interest in making real historical analyses. They're really just saying the vibes were different in 2002 vs 2010 around reffing and space. The other thing is to check the tone and context of what they're saying; remember players and coaches now do literally hundreds of hours of interviews and they get to talking about all sorts of things, and they also naturally shift sometimes into just jabbering on sometimes. You can often tell if they're making a real tight point that they've thought about or just kinda talking to talk.

That doesn't mean you're wrong on any of these points, it's just that none of them make an argument by themselves and there's very strong reasons not to take them as fact without looking into them. A lot of times stuff like that will get you going on a good hypothesis, but you can't skip the part of stress testing those things and seeing how much they hold up.

[HotelVitale]

^I'd also add that I dind't go into this topic being anti-handchecking--I came in curious and looked at a fair amount of tape from the 80s to now while trying to figure out my stance. Stuck with it in part because it's interesting and complex. I do see some changes to handchecking between that time and now, but I without any question see much much bigger changes to the general offensive strategy that are completely unmistakable (as mentioned above). And the connection between those things and handchecking just isn't very strong.

I do think that in the long transition period of like 2004-2014 (and on), players and coaches probably noticed the difference in handchecking rules and many (especially the defense/old-school-y ones) were also probably frustrated by that. But that doesn't make them a major driver of any major changes. I can look at 30 seconds of Steve Nash in 2004 and see the seeds of far far more relevant innovations happening than in 3 hours of reviewing random 2004 game tape and looking for handchecking violations.

[Maxthirty]

OMG, not hand checking!?

That’s the thing that happens when I play basketball at the park. If only NBA players knew that reaching means teaching. Oh well…

[ScrantonBulls]

Spoiler:

You can watch A LOT of MJ highlights looking for the smoking gun of a handcheck before you actually find one. I watched every Bulls game in the Nineties. Literally, I did. So believe me when I say that dirty play in the Nineties was no myth ... but the importance of handchecking was. Here, watch The Glove. Body positioning and footwork. That was great defense now and that is great defense today. It never was about the hands.

Watch on YouTube

If you're going to say something like that, back it up with a video of Jordan that has no hand checking... I don't know if I've ever seen one.

What I can't find is any hand checking in that Brunson video. I don't think that a lot of guys hear know what hand checking is, or maybe they're just in denial. It's confusing.

What many of you don't understand is that you could provide resistance back as a defender, which made it considerably more challenging to get your shot off in an open position.

Maybe you guys are confusing riding somebody on the hip, where you put the outside of the hand (not inside) on the hip to follow, but that's nothing like hand checking. It's literally called riding on the hip.

You were allowed to PUSH with the forearm in the post back then. Players were actually taught to defend with one hand on the back, pushing the ball handler back and the other to the side, to balance and defend the passing lane.

Anyway, here.

First of all, the blatant lie that you can watch Jordan and not find any hand checking.

Watch on YouTube

:47, right away resistance, hand checking followed by what would be an easy call by today's standards
1:05, right afterwards, right forearm of Kemp, AS they were taught to defend back then (this is hand checking btw) would be a foul today

1:20, right afterwards, once again

So don't lie. You can literally choose any Jordan video and we can pick out all of the hand checking together.

Watch on YouTube

:14 bumped, obviously a foul today. :22 right after, nudged with a hand check out of bounds, no foul. No complaint, part of the 90s game (sorry to say) :50 hand on back the entire time

Spoiler:

And these are two random videos I just chose off the top of my head. Do this for any 90s video and you'll learn about hand checking. It's about the forearm on the back, and resistance. It's hard to notice unless you look for it and actually compare the resistance from then and now. Then you notice that it's certainly more free to the rim now than it was. But that should be common sense as the game has also opened up anyway and we have the 3 second violati


Meanwhile, that Brunson video had 0 resistance.

Funniest thing about this is I have not heard one interview where they deny the impact of hand checking. Every player has called it tough to play against and every new player (international in particular) has talked about how easy it is to score in the league now. Only RealGM posters seem to think otherwise- go figure.

Hands/forearm on the back and hips all over in these videos without foul calls. Same thing as in those Jordan clips. If there's a difference from 90s today regarding hand and forearm checking, the examples you give aren't it.

Watch on YouTube

Jokic at :15 is basically the exact same play as the Payton/Jordan one you point out.

Watch on YouTube

These videos are nice and all, but did you see what Sheed said? You trying to tell me you know more about the NBA than Sheed does?

[Myth]

Can anyone even explain what exactly people are talking about when they whine about the hand check ban in 2004? It had been repeatedly "banned" prior to that.

Didn’t read the whole post, but if I remember correctly, the rule was made in the 90s, but barely enforced, and then during the 2004 offseason the league emphasized that they will start truly enforcing it. Nash became the poster child of suddenly being able to run freely under the basket without any real physical contact. It would be like if suddenly the NBA started truly enforcing flopping violations this upcoming season. Sure the rule was made before and there are examples of it being enforced, but everybody watching on a regular basis would know the real change came when it was emphasized and enforced rather than when it was actually established.

[DoctorX]

In the old days players played more with their backs to the basket when usually handchecking hapens. As many posters stated it is hard to handchack guards who play faceup now. So I look at Jokic's highlights from just one game to see is there handchacking today because he plays a lot with his back to the basket and here is what I saw.

Watch on YouTube

0:08 handchecking by Gobert while driving sideways
0:21 Gobert uses one hand and one forearm at the same time - it use to be a foul
1:21 handchecking by SloMo with both hands - foul?
1:39 handchecking by NAW on Reggie Jackson
2:05 handchecking by NAW
2:40 handchecking by Gobert in the act of shooting, it used to be foul in the old days
3:40 it starts with handchecking by KAT through hard screen by AG and then a lot of pushing by Gobert
4:07 handchecking and push in the act of shooting by KAT, no foul

Nuggets used handchecking on Minny players too, because it were playoffs, phisicality is alowed.

The league still allows defenders to handcheck bigs without the refs really enforcing it. The greatest change today is when it comes to guarding perimeter players, the refs allow little to no contact.

[DoctorX]

Handchecking did make a huge difference defensively. I saw that firsthand as a Spurs fan when it came to the way Bruce Bowen would guard guys. Today Bruce would foul out of games by the way he played with his hands harassing offensive players. Handchecking made a huge difference defensively which is why the league will never bring it back. If it wouldn't have an impact on today's game, then why won't the league bring it back? The answer is the league knows it would drastically impact scoring which goes against their agenda of having high scoring games hence why they won't ever bring it back.

[DoctorX]

Can anyone even explain what exactly people are talking about when they whine about the hand check ban in 2004? It had been repeatedly "banned" prior to that.

Didn’t read the whole post, but if I remember correctly, the rule was made in the 90s, but barely enforced, and then during the 2004 offseason the league emphasized that they will start truly enforcing it. Nash became the poster child of suddenly being able to run freely under the basket without any real physical contact. It would be like if suddenly the NBA started truly enforcing flopping violations this upcoming season. Sure the rule was made before and there are examples of it being enforced, but everybody watching on a regular basis would know the real change came when it was emphasized and enforced rather than when it was actually established.

As a Spurs fan I can say your off by a year. It really was after the Spurs-Pistons finals in '05 the league decided to start enforcing it more aggressively starting in the '06 playoffs. I will never forget all the touch fouls they started calling against the Spurs in the '06 Mavs series. You also saw it in the '06 finals with how many touch foul calls Wade was getting. That's really when the league started to make an effort in enforcing it and gradually year by year eliminated hand checking that by around the mid 2010's it was nonexistent when it came to guarding perimeter players.

[bledredwine]

Handchecking did make a huge difference defensively. I saw that firsthand as a Spurs fan when it came to the way Bruce Bowen would guard guys. Today Bruce would foul out of games by the way he played with his hands harassing offensive players. Handchecking made a huge difference defensively which is why the league will never bring it back. If it wouldn't have an impact on today's game, then why won't the league bring it back? The answer is the league knows it would drastically impact scoring which goes against their agenda of having high scoring games hence why they won't ever bring it back.

Absolutely. Bowen would not be allowed nor would a lot of the more aggressive defenders.

I actually noticed a drastic change earlier in the 00’s but it definitely has been more heavily enforced since in terms of contact allowed.
There was a whole slew of defenders from the 00s that wouldn’t be allowed to defend in the same way today. Handchecking and resistance is definitely a part of it.

[Myth]

Can anyone even explain what exactly people are talking about when they whine about the hand check ban in 2004? It had been repeatedly "banned" prior to that.

Didn’t read the whole post, but if I remember correctly, the rule was made in the 90s, but barely enforced, and then during the 2004 offseason the league emphasized that they will start truly enforcing it. Nash became the poster child of suddenly being able to run freely under the basket without any real physical contact. It would be like if suddenly the NBA started truly enforcing flopping violations this upcoming season. Sure the rule was made before and there are examples of it being enforced, but everybody watching on a regular basis would know the real change came when it was emphasized and enforced rather than when it was actually established.

As a Spurs fan I can say your off by a year. It really was after the Spurs-Pistons finals in '05 the league decided to start enforcing it more aggressively starting in the '06 playoffs. I will never forget all the touch fouls they started calling against the Spurs in the '06 Mavs series. You also saw it in the '06 finals with how many touch foul calls Wade was getting. That's really when the league started to make an effort in enforcing it and gradually year by year eliminated hand checking that by around the mid 2010's it was nonexistent when it came to guarding perimeter players.

Could have got even stricter in 2005, especially in the playoffs, but Nash’s massive leap to MVP was often cited as credited partially due to the changes, and there are articles from those days online talking about the changes, so not simply revisionist.

[Got Nuffin]

Handchecking did make a huge difference defensively. I saw that firsthand as a Spurs fan when it came to the way Bruce Bowen would guard guys. Today Bruce would foul out of games by the way he played with his hands harassing offensive players. Handchecking made a huge difference defensively which is why the league will never bring it back. If it wouldn't have an impact on today's game, then why won't the league bring it back? The answer is the league knows it would drastically impact scoring which goes against their agenda of having high scoring games hence why they won't ever bring it back.

Absolutely. Bowen would not be allowed nor would a lot of the more aggressive defenders.

I actually noticed a drastic change earlier in the 00’s but it definitely has been more heavily enforced since in terms of contact allowed.
There was a whole slew of defenders from the 00s that wouldn’t be allowed to defend in the same way today. Handchecking and resistance is definitely a part of it.

Doc Rivers has even admitted that he wouldn't be able to play defence in today's league because a large part of his defensive strategy was hand checking.

It's crazy to me that people are still arguing and denying all this when every other player who played around the 90s-2005ish basketball all say exactly the same thing about how defence was played.

Are Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce also exaggerating / making things up about how they played defence? They're the last players I've heard talking about the difference in hand checking rules from their era (see their response to Anthony Edwards etc).

You have an entire generation of people who played in the NBA telling you one thing, and some people wanna just argue with them all

[ScrantonBulls]

Handchecking did make a huge difference defensively. I saw that firsthand as a Spurs fan when it came to the way Bruce Bowen would guard guys. Today Bruce would foul out of games by the way he played with his hands harassing offensive players. Handchecking made a huge difference defensively which is why the league will never bring it back. If it wouldn't have an impact on today's game, then why won't the league bring it back? The answer is the league knows it would drastically impact scoring which goes against their agenda of having high scoring games hence why they won't ever bring it back.

Absolutely. Bowen would not be allowed nor would a lot of the more aggressive defenders.

I actually noticed a drastic change earlier in the 00’s but it definitely has been more heavily enforced since in terms of contact allowed.
There was a whole slew of defenders from the 00s that wouldn’t be allowed to defend in the same way today. Handchecking and resistance is definitely a part of it.

Doc Rivers has even admitted that he wouldn't be able to play defence in today's league because a large part of his defensive strategy was hand checking.

It's crazy to me that people are still arguing and denying all this when every other player who played around the 90s-2005ish basketball all say exactly the same thing about how defence was played.

Are Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce also exaggerating / making things up about how they played defence? They're the last players I've heard talking about the difference in hand checking rules from their era (see their response to Anthony Edwards etc).

You have an entire generation of people who played in the NBA telling you one thing, and some people wanna just argue with them all

You'd think if it was such a massive part of defense in the past like you claim it to be, you'd easily be able to find some video evidence showing that. Instead it's just "trust me bro Paul Pierce said so!"

Imagine putting credence into what dumbass Paul Pierce says, lmao. You know somebody has a losing argument and/or doesn't know what they're talking about when the crux of their argument is "XX player said so". Use your own brain instead of blindly believing what somebody else tells you.

[SpreeS]

But no one talks here about how changed selling fouls skill. Doncic/Harden/Jokic would sell a lot of hand checking plays as fouls.

[Got Nuffin]

Absolutely. Bowen would not be allowed nor would a lot of the more aggressive defenders.

I actually noticed a drastic change earlier in the 00’s but it definitely has been more heavily enforced since in terms of contact allowed.
There was a whole slew of defenders from the 00s that wouldn’t be allowed to defend in the same way today. Handchecking and resistance is definitely a part of it.

Doc Rivers has even admitted that he wouldn't be able to play defence in today's league because a large part of his defensive strategy was hand checking.

It's crazy to me that people are still arguing and denying all this when every other player who played around the 90s-2005ish basketball all say exactly the same thing about how defence was played.

Are Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce also exaggerating / making things up about how they played defence? They're the last players I've heard talking about the difference in hand checking rules from their era (see their response to Anthony Edwards etc).

You have an entire generation of people who played in the NBA telling you one thing, and some people wanna just argue with them all

You'd think if it was such a massive part of defense in the past like you claim it to be, you'd easily be able to find some video evidence showing that. Instead it's just "trust me bro Paul Pierce said so!"

Imagine putting credence into what dumbass Paul Pierce says, lmao. You know somebody has a losing argument and/or doesn't know what they're talking about when the crux of their argument is "XX player said so". Use your own brain instead of blindly believing what somebody else tells you.

Yeah, Paul Pierce and... every other player who played in that era. Why is Pierce a dumbass? Do basketball players need to be smart? What has that got to do with hand checking?

Hand checking occurred when the player gets into the lane. Then the defender could control where the offensive player is going and prevent them from getting to their sweet spots. Yes maybe you could hand check all the way at the 3 pt line, but you better be damn sure the offensive player is not going to just blow by you -so that was more rare.

Hand checking up the court was also common, which meant that point guards often needed to turn their backs to the defender to get the ball up to the start the play.

Also, why are you taking it so seriously and being insulting?

It's just basketball, get a life.

[theonlyclutch]

NBA TS% by position: 5-year intervals from '80 (3P era) to present:
PG: 52.0% -> 53.0% -> 52.6% -> 52.9% -> 51.0% -> 52.7% -> 52.9% -> 53.6% -> 55.5%
SG: 52.8% -> 53.0% -> 53.2% -> 53.6% -> 52.2% -> 54.0% -> 53.6% -> 54.2% -> 56.2%
C: 55.3% -> 54.7% -> 53.8% -> 53.4% -> 52.1% -> 54.9% -> 54.9% -> 57.4% -> 61.4%

Apart from the 2000-2004 period where offenses hit a nadir for everybody, guards have basically had stable shooting efficiencies with "hand-checking" or "no hand-checking" until the most recent period where there's a slight uptick.
So what gives man? In the preceding period ('15-19) is when we saw Curry with GSW, Harden with Rockets, everyone talking about space and pace, but yet guards are still just as efficient as they were c. 30 years prior? Only in the most recent period is there actually a statistically significant trend of higher guard efficiencies, and they're getting lapped by...Centers? Whom we are being repeatedly told constantly get unfair treatment in this league.

Instead of 'bringing back' hand-checking to rein in offenses, maybe what we really should do is to introduce a rule to limit each player to 2 dunks per game...that'd reign in the positions who have actually benefited the most..

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I think that more than the handcheck itself it was the BS fouls that guys could Trae could get by just throwing themselves at helpless defenders, before the league changed it last year. Once that's gone (hopefully) I am not so sure that's such an enormous difference vs the 90s.
What really changed is that now the floor is so spaced out that you can have a highway to the basket if you beat your man, even if you can zone now.
Moreover, I really don't see how anyone could suggest that in the 80s and 90s teams were running more complex stuff. See the kind of off ball movement you have today, we never had anything like that with the shooters we have today.
Finally, Kenny suggesting that in the 80s there were "no specialists" unlike now is just laughable. I am not going to say that the best guys are more skilled today. But in the past you could afford guys with no offensive game, even in perimeter positions, and protect them using the illegal defense rules. If you ignore this I believe it invalidates everything you're saying, you're not credible anymore.