Lets Talk Handchecking

[bledredwine]

But no one talks here about how changed selling fouls skill. Doncic/Harden/Jokic would sell a lot of hand checking plays as fouls.

Yeah, there are a variety of changes that have lessened the contact and man defense, but I was hoping to have a thread on hand checking specifically where a few of the smarter posters gave their take, maybe learn a thing or two. Luckily, this was a success as there were a few of those posters.

[TFJava]

Bring it back.

[pepe1991]

I don't understand how people can argue handchacking did not impact guards with straight face.
IF you are 6'2 -185 pounds guy, and you are 245 pounds person lays hand on you, he pretty much dictates your direction.

"You can't defend face up person with handcheck" is nonsense. You pretty much block him to dribble to that side. Most nba players are right handed ( probably around 80%) once defender puts his left left hand on you, and you are right handed, you can only really drive to his right ( faster, more coordinated hand) and his stronger side. From start you do two favorable things for defense:
1) dribble on side of your worst hand
2) dribble on side of opponent's stronger hand

Going left, and shooting with right hand isn't easy, it also allows defender to block or contest shot with more accuracy.


But let's just go through some numbers:
2003-04 season -2% FG
vs
2004-05 season -2% FG

by stars:

Iverson 40,8 vs 45,2%
Kobe 46,3 vs 47,2
Tracy 45,5 vs 46,8
Nash 49,8 vs 54,8
Manu 44,5 vs 51,7
Wade 47,7 vs 48,5
Pierce 43,8 vs 48,1
Vince 42,4 vs 46
Arenas 40 vs 46

You can't tell me that it's coincidence that all ( but Ray Allen ) allstar guards improved in same year in same category.
You also can't tell me with straight face that offense got "more spacing" based on one year only ( average 3 point attemps went from 14,9 to 15,8 , efficiency from 34,7% to 35,6% ), but also FTA went for +1,9.

In reality, 2003-04 had 3rd slowed pace, but also 15th lowest FTA season in nba history, games turned into glorified push & shove with ball wrestling.
For crying out loud, Pacers vs Pistons, game 7, 48 min of basketball resulted in 69:65 game. Winning team shot 32% FG . Pistons scored 27 points at a halftime.
That 2003-04, Pistons held 24 out of 82 times opponents under 80 points, 11 times under 70 points.

League figured nobody wanted to watch that crap and simply made new directions to refs. Walking into next season out of nowhere all guards can find their path toward basket ( without getting killed).

 No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line
extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
 Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally
obtained a position.
 Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from
point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
 Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up”
is prohibited.

Those rules were implemented in offseason of 2001.

NBA was very different sport , handchacking is just cute, easy to remember gimmick , but nba players , mostly guards, before 2005 played in era that was rigged against them, and very favorable to lumberjack tall bullies.

[bledredwine]

I don't understand how people can argue handchacking did not impact guards with straight face.
IF you are 6'2 -185 pounds guy, and you are 245 pounds person lays hand on you, he pretty much dictates your direction.

"You can't defend face up person with handcheck" is nonsense. You pretty much block him to dribble to that side. Most nba players are right handed ( probably around 80%) once defender puts his left left hand on you, and you are right handed, you can only really drive to his right ( faster, more coordinated hand) and his stronger side. From start you do two favorable things for defense:
1) dribble on side of your worst hand
2) dribble on side of opponent's stronger hand

Going left, and shooting with right hand isn't easy, it also allows defender to block or contest shot with more accuracy.


But let's just go through some numbers:
2003-04 season -2% FG
vs
2004-05 season -2% FG

by stars:

Iverson 40,8 vs 45,2%
Kobe 46,3 vs 47,2
Tracy 45,5 vs 46,8
Nash 49,8 vs 54,8
Manu 44,5 vs 51,7
Wade 47,7 vs 48,5
Pierce 43,8 vs 48,1
Vince 42,4 vs 46
Arenas 40 vs 46

You can't tell me that it's coincidence that all ( but Ray Allen ) allstar guards improved in same year in same category.
You also can't tell me with straight face that offense got "more spacing" based on one year only ( average 3 point attemps went from 14,9 to 15,8 , efficiency from 34,7% to 35,6% ), but also FTA went for +1,9.

In reality, 2003-04 had 3rd slowed pace, but also 15th lowest FTA season in nba history, games turned into glorified push & shove with ball wrestling.
For crying out loud, Pacers vs Pistons, game 7, 48 min of basketball resulted in 69:65 game. Winning team shot 32% FG . Pistons scored 27 points at a halftime.
That 2003-04, Pistons held 24 out of 82 times opponents under 80 points, 11 times under 70 points.

League figured nobody wanted to watch that crap and simply made new directions to refs. Walking into next season out of nowhere all guards can find their path toward basket ( without getting killed).

 No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line
extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
 Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally
obtained a position.
 Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from
point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
 Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up”
is prohibited.

Those rules were implemented in offseason of 2001.

NBA was very different sport , handchacking is just cute, easy to remember gimmick , but nba players , mostly guards, before 2005 played in era that was rigged against them, and very favorable to lumberjack tall bullies.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

I had a notepad file back in the day with numbers like yours but covering 30 of the top scoring perimeter players. The difference post changes was dramatic. It took place in the (very) early 00's, as you mentioned.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

In reality, 2003-04 had 3rd slowed pace, but also 15th lowest FTA season in nba history, games turned into glorified push & shove with ball wrestling.
For crying out loud, Pacers vs Pistons, game 7, 48 min of basketball resulted in 69:65 game. Winning team shot 32% FG . Pistons scored 27 points at a halftime.
That 2003-04, Pistons held 24 out of 82 times opponents under 80 points, 11 times under 70 points.

League figured nobody wanted to watch that crap and simply made new directions to refs. Walking into next season out of nowhere all guards can find their path toward basket ( without getting killed).

One thing to consider, though, 2004 is not 1991.
It's true, off rating went up from 102.9 to 106.1 in 2005.
But it was 107.9 in 1991, 108.2 in 1992, 108.0 in 1993.
Heck it was still 106.7 in 1998!
I am ready to concede that reducing the physicality in the perimeter had an impact (but it's not just hand checking), but I think we're confusing how defense was played in the early 90s and how it was in the deadball era, in the early 00s. When you had even more physicality allowed + the removal of the illegal rule defense.
Moreover, leaguewide off ratings exploded just in recent years, and that's 100% dependent on coaches finally buying into pace&space, putting more and more skilled players on the floor:
2024 115.1
2023 114.8
2022 112.0
2021 112.3
2020 110.6
2019 110.4
2018 108.6

One last thing, not many years ago most people had no understanding of off ratings and were jus taking about ppg, completely neglecting the impact of pace. A lot of those guys are former players who never evolved, and maybe even some old coaches.
The (late) 90s were slow, but offences were not extraordinarily inefficient --> defenses were not as elite as we remember

[pepe1991]

But no one talks here about how changed selling fouls skill. Doncic/Harden/Jokic would sell a lot of hand checking plays as fouls.

Officiating is also (whole lot) more forgiving to various double dribbles, pentasteps layups that are called Eurosteps ( i guess it's called eurostep because they travel so much they could land in Europe? ) , gather step is only officially part of nba since 2019.
Whole bunch of stepbacks are in reality travels that go uncalled.

Would Harden / Doncic sell more fouls ? Yes, but there would always be one Bruce Bowen gunning for their ankle to break.

As for centers, Jokic would have been guarded with clear shoves with both hands, or holding elbow on his shoulders or near head. Something that in 90s and early 00s was common "defense". Watching some of Ben Wallace "defense" on Shaq from today's pov is borderline comical.

[whitehops]

back in the day you used to be able to slide your foot under a player when he was shooting so he would land on it. those were the days.

the game's gone soft.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

But no one talks here about how changed selling fouls skill. Doncic/Harden/Jokic would sell a lot of hand checking plays as fouls.

Officiating is also (whole lot) more forgiving to various double dribbles, pentasteps layups that are called Eurosteps ( i guess it's called eurostep because they travel so much they could land in Europe? ) , gather step is only officially part of nba since 2019.
Whole bunch of stepbacks are in reality travels that go uncalled.

Would Harden / Doncic sell more fouls ? Yes, but there would always be one Bruce Bowen gunning for their ankle to break.

As for centers, Jokic would have been guarded with clear shoves with both hands, or holding elbow on his shoulders or near head. Something that in 90s and early 00s was common "defense". Watching some of Ben Wallace "defense" on Shaq from today's pov is borderline comical.

true, as long as we're not using this to say guys today have an advantage vs jordon, who used to make extra steps al the time, in particular on his first step.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

back in the day you used to be able to slide your foot under a player when he was shooting so he would land on it. those were the days.

the game's gone soft.

this is a lie, Bruce Bowen never did it un purpose

[Ryoga Hibiki]

As for centers, Jokic would have been guarded with clear shoves with both hands, or holding elbow on his shoulders or near head. Something that in 90s and early 00s was common "defense". Watching some of Ben Wallace "defense" on Shaq from today's pov is borderline comical.

Shaq's offense was comical as well, in terms of putting his shoulder down to dislodge the defender.
Nowadays everyone would flop Divac style as soon as he started the movement.

[dhsilv2]

Can anyone even explain what exactly people are talking about when they whine about the hand check ban in 2004? It had been repeatedly "banned" prior to that. Apologies for the annoying editing in the below video, but it was clearly already banned in the 1997 playoffs as there are multiple hand check fouls called.

I distinctly remember while playing pick up games at lunch when I was in high-school in the mid 90s a sudden change where we couldn't put a hand on the other guy, but could use our forearm instead. It amused me at the time because we weren't anything resembling an intense high level group, and I don't remember anyone handchecking in our games prior to that, but suddenly the forearm check was all the rage because that was the new rule in the NBA.

So the first thing that makes me immediately suspicious of the unban the handcheck club, is that I have doubts as to whether they're upset about the game as it was. They seem to be upset by false memories.

This is further compounded by the fact that the hand check is alive and well in the modern game despite people imagining it to be gone. Spend just a few minutes of any random game and you'll probably spot numerous instances. That video og15 posted earlier was just a random game I pulled clips from in response to this same narrative a few years back. I didn't have to go searching for the rare example, just pressed record on the next game I watched, and numerous examples popped out.

It was banned in the 90s but inconsistently enforced. It is banned now and remains inconsistently enforced. I really struggle to see how its impact is meaningfully different between eras, especially if you look at the game as a whole instead of cherry picking games and possessions. When I watch a random 90s game, even playoff game, in it's entirety handchecking does not stand out as a significant part of the game that is notably different from today's game.

The foul at 1:02 in the above video happens constantly in today's game with no call. Even if there are some areas where the whistle was looser then, there are others where it was tighter. You can't meanifully compare eras and supposed soft rules if you fail to look at the whole.

Anyway, bottom line is that it wasn't anywhere close to as prevalent in the 90s as some people today think it was, and it is far more common in today's game than those same people realize.

Well of course there was less hand checking in the 90's. The first attempts to remove it from the NBA took place in the late 70's, before Bird and Magic entered the league. But the way some posters talk about it, you'd think it was invented in the 80's just for Jordan.

The reality is, hand checking is obviously effective. But it's never been nearly as common or well used as people think. And the best counter is what players like Harden did...just shoot through it. It's a shooting foul in any era if you can do that.

[dhsilv2]

Handchecking did make a huge difference defensively. I saw that firsthand as a Spurs fan when it came to the way Bruce Bowen would guard guys. Today Bruce would foul out of games by the way he played with his hands harassing offensive players. Handchecking made a huge difference defensively which is why the league will never bring it back. If it wouldn't have an impact on today's game, then why won't the league bring it back? The answer is the league knows it would drastically impact scoring which goes against their agenda of having high scoring games hence why they won't ever bring it back.

Bowen made 5 of his 8 all defensive teams after the league pushed back on hand checking with the 2004 season. It would almost appear hand checking being a point of emphasis increased his value vs the opposite.

[DOT]

In reality, 2003-04 had 3rd slowed pace, but also 15th lowest FTA season in nba history, games turned into glorified push & shove with ball wrestling.
For crying out loud, Pacers vs Pistons, game 7, 48 min of basketball resulted in 69:65 game. Winning team shot 32% FG . Pistons scored 27 points at a halftime.
That 2003-04, Pistons held 24 out of 82 times opponents under 80 points, 11 times under 70 points.

League figured nobody wanted to watch that crap and simply made new directions to refs. Walking into next season out of nowhere all guards can find their path toward basket ( without getting killed).

One thing to consider, though, 2004 is not 1991.
It's true, off rating went up from 102.9 to 106.1 in 2005.
But it was 107.9 in 1991, 108.2 in 1992, 108.0 in 1993.
Heck it was still 106.7 in 1998!
I am ready to concede that reducing the physicality in the perimeter had an impact (but it's not just hand checking), but I think we're confusing how defense was played in the early 90s and how it was in the deadball era, in the early 00s. When you had even more physicality allowed + the removal of the illegal rule defense.
Moreover, leaguewide off ratings exploded just in recent years, and that's 100% dependent on coaches finally buying into pace&space, putting more and more skilled players on the floor:
2024 115.1
2023 114.8
2022 112.0
2021 112.3
2020 110.6
2019 110.4
2018 108.6

One last thing, not many years ago most people had no understanding of off ratings and were jus taking about ppg, completely neglecting the impact of pace. A lot of those guys are former players who never evolved, and maybe even some old coaches.
The (late) 90s were slow, but offences were not extraordinarily inefficient --> defenses were not as elite as we remember

They really don't like talking about this, but the facts show the deadball era was the late 90s, early 00s, not the entire 80s and 90s

In 1958, the average team scored 106.6 points per game. The average would not dip below 100 ppg until 1996 (when it was 99.5, the real drop came in 1997 to 96.9), and from 1996 to 2013, only 2 years (2009 and 2010) did the average go over 100 ppg (at 100.0 and 100.4 respectively). There was a very rapid expansion, as the league went from 102.7 ppg in 2016 to 111.2 ppg in 2019, but that's when it was

You listen to some of these old people, you'd think the league was scoring 60 points a night until 2003, at which point the ppg doubled when that's not really the case. Furthermore, something else they don't like to talk about is that fouls and free throws are way down in the modern era. You take the offensive explosion in 2016 to now, the average FTA per game has never been higher than 23.5 and FT/FG ratio has never been over .209, meaning out of every 100 shots, there are 21 free throws

You go back to the deadball era, 1996 to 2003, the low for FTA per game was 23.8 and the low for FT/FG ratio was .221, meaning in that era more fouls were called with more free throws taken. Which runs counter to the narrative that everything is a foul now and no fouls were ever called back then, yet somehow that's the impression these people seem to have. I mean hell, go back to 1986 and 1987, two years back to back there were over 30 free throws a game on average

I'm not commenting on the quality of play, just pointing out the narratives don't really seem to line up with the facts.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Spoiler:

If you're going to say something like that, back it up with a video of Jordan that has no hand checking... I don't know if I've ever seen one.

What I can't find is any hand checking in that Brunson video. I don't think that a lot of guys hear know what hand checking is, or maybe they're just in denial. It's confusing.

What many of you don't understand is that you could provide resistance back as a defender, which made it considerably more challenging to get your shot off in an open position.

Maybe you guys are confusing riding somebody on the hip, where you put the outside of the hand (not inside) on the hip to follow, but that's nothing like hand checking. It's literally called riding on the hip.

You were allowed to PUSH with the forearm in the post back then. Players were actually taught to defend with one hand on the back, pushing the ball handler back and the other to the side, to balance and defend the passing lane.

Anyway, here.

First of all, the blatant lie that you can watch Jordan and not find any hand checking.

Watch on YouTube

:47, right away resistance, hand checking followed by what would be an easy call by today's standards
1:05, right afterwards, right forearm of Kemp, AS they were taught to defend back then (this is hand checking btw) would be a foul today

1:20, right afterwards, once again

So don't lie. You can literally choose any Jordan video and we can pick out all of the hand checking together.

Watch on YouTube

:14 bumped, obviously a foul today. :22 right after, nudged with a hand check out of bounds, no foul. No complaint, part of the 90s game (sorry to say) :50 hand on back the entire time

Spoiler:

And these are two random videos I just chose off the top of my head. Do this for any 90s video and you'll learn about hand checking. It's about the forearm on the back, and resistance. It's hard to notice unless you look for it and actually compare the resistance from then and now. Then you notice that it's certainly more free to the rim now than it was. But that should be common sense as the game has also opened up anyway and we have the 3 second violati


Meanwhile, that Brunson video had 0 resistance.

Funniest thing about this is I have not heard one interview where they deny the impact of hand checking. Every player has called it tough to play against and every new player (international in particular) has talked about how easy it is to score in the league now. Only RealGM posters seem to think otherwise- go figure

Hands/forearm on the back and hips all over in these videos without foul calls. Same thing as in those Jordan clips. If there's a difference from 90s today regarding hand and forearm checking, the examples you give aren't it.

Watch on YouTube

Jokic at :15 is basically the exact same play as the Payton/Jordan one you point out.

Watch on YouTube

[pepe1991]

As for centers, Jokic would have been guarded with clear shoves with both hands, or holding elbow on his shoulders or near head. Something that in 90s and early 00s was common "defense". Watching some of Ben Wallace "defense" on Shaq from today's pov is borderline comical.

Shaq's offense was comical as well, in terms of putting his shoulder down to dislodge the defender.
Nowadays everyone would flop Divac style as soon as he started the movement.

Shaq is easly one of most underrated nba players among fans.
He is on very short list of players who dominated two basketball decades.

Why was Shaq's offense comical? More often than not he would recive ball at high post and played 1 on 1. Once he would destroy you one on one, teams would send two, sometimes even 3 players just to help. That gravity created crazy space for others.

As result he was career 24 ppg on near 59% TS and lasted from 1992 -2011.
During his peak he was one of best scorers, rebounders, shotblockers and underrated passer as well.

His "comical" offense was him being unguardable for pretty much any person. 7'1 at some point over 350 pounds, guys simply couldn't survive his bumps. And he was agile and mobile for person of that size, with great feel for offense ( and defense, before he got lazy and chubby).

2001, game 2 of finals, against at times DPOY winner, Dikembe Mutombo, Shaq goes for 28 points, 20 rebounds, 9 assists, 8 blocks, finishes series with 33 ppg ( 57% FG), 16 rpg, 5 apg, 3,5 blocks a game


And "today players would just flop" , why don't they don't do it vs Embiid? Instad, they allow him to bully them (and flop) into near 34 ppg.
Why nobody is stopping 6'6 - no post moves ,no jumper Zion, who is, compared to Shaq , 100 pounds ligther?

Because it's very, very, very ,VERY hard to guard brute force who is talented and strong and in Shaq's and today, Embiid's case more often than not, much taller than you.

[bledredwine]

Spoiler:

Hands/forearm on the back and hips all over in these videos without foul calls. Same thing as in those Jordan clips. If there's a difference from 90s today regarding hand and forearm checking, the examples you give aren't it.

Watch on YouTube

Jokic at :15 is basically the exact same play as the Payton/Jordan one you point out.

Watch on YouTube

These videos are nice and all, but did you see what Sheed said? You trying to tell me you know more about the NBA than Sheed does?

Me? No, I dont know more about basketball than Sheed. The videos however do. When the videos contradict Sheed, he's wrong, not the videos. We can see what actually happeneded in games instead of relying on flawed memories warped by agendas.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

As for centers, Jokic would have been guarded with clear shoves with both hands, or holding elbow on his shoulders or near head. Something that in 90s and early 00s was common "defense". Watching some of Ben Wallace "defense" on Shaq from today's pov is borderline comical.

Shaq's offense was comical as well, in terms of putting his shoulder down to dislodge the defender.
Nowadays everyone would flop Divac style as soon as he started the movement.

Shaq is easly one of most underrated nba players among fans.
He is on very short list of players who dominated two basketball decades.

Why was Shaq's offense comical? More often than not he would recive ball at high post and played 1 on 1. Once he would destroy you one on one, teams would send two, sometimes even 3 players just to help. That gravity created crazy space for others.

As result he was career 24 ppg on near 59% TS and lasted from 1992 -2011.
During his peak he was one of best scorers, rebounders, shotblockers and underrated passer as well.

His "comical" offense was him being unguardable for pretty much any person. 7'1 at some point over 350 pounds, guys simply couldn't survive his bumps. And he was agile and mobile for person of that size, with great feel for offense ( and defense, before he got lazy and chubby).

2001, game 2 of finals, against at times DPOY winner, Dikembe Mutombo, Shaq goes for 28 points, 20 rebounds, 9 assists, 8 blocks, finishes series with 33 ppg ( 57% FG), 16 rpg, 5 apg, 3,5 blocks a game


And "today players would just flop" , why don't they don't do it vs Embiid? Instad, they allow him to bully them (and flop) into near 34 ppg.
Why nobody is stopping 6'6 - no post moves ,no jumper Zion, who is, compared to Shaq , 100 pounds ligther?

Because it's very, very, very ,VERY hard to guard brute force who is talented and strong and in Shaq's and today, Embiid's case more often than not, much taller than you.

you are calling comical the illegal defense that was often used against Shaq, and not the equally illegal offense Shaq was deploying.
And nowadays people don't bulldoze the defender the way Shaq did, definitely not Embiid, because they would get called an offensive foul.
Shaq was an anomaly, but now you always see smaller defensive player baiting the big guy to make a move to flop. You won't see many guys playing him straight up, and because of that he would need to adjust his game.

[og15]

A few things:

Spoiler:

1) 3 seconds in the key wasn't a new rule. It was the only aspect that was left over. The removal of the rest of the Illegal Defense Guidelines starting in 2001-02 changed how defensive three seconds functioned.

1966-67:

The following language was added to the Zone Defense Rule: "After the offensive team has advanced the ball to its front court, a defensive player may not station himself in the key area longer than three seconds if it is apparent he is making no effort to play an opponent. The three second count starts when the offensive team is in clear control in the front court."

A 1978 NYT article discussing the NBA's zone defense guidelines:

The zone defense has no future in the National Basketball Association, according to the league's supervisor of officials. Teams that try to play or camouflage zones in the future are likely to be subjected to harsher penalties than before.

“The majority of general managers and coaches I have spoken with are against zones,” said Norm Drucker, the supervisor of N.B.A. officials, yesterday. “I'm currently working on new language for the rules and attached penalties that will make things so severe teams won't want to play them.” He said the new language would be presented to the Competition and Rules Committee for approval at its next meeting.

Drucker would not disclose his recommendations. The N.B.A. rule, rewritten a couple of years ago, gives these guidelines for zones:

¶Any type of pressing defense is legal, whether it is a frontcourt press or a backcourt press, and by any number of players.

¶After the offensive team has advanced the ball into its front court, a defensive player may not station himself inside the 16‐foot key area longer than three seconds, if it is apparent he is making no effort to play an opponent. “Playing an opponent is defined as being six to eight feet from any opposing player. The three‐second count starts when the offensive team is in clear control of the ball in its front court.

¶When the ball has passed center court, no defensive player can guard an area of the court instead of guarding an opponent.

The furor over the use of the zone defenses began last week when Richie Powers, the senior N.B.A. official, said he would permit the Atlanta Hawks and the Nets to use zone defenses in violation of the rule. His apparent objective was to force a showdown on the viability of the rule.

Powers Fined $2,500

Powers had said, “I've been fighting against this rule over the years because of its difficulty in enforcement and the fact that it's easily circumvented by coaches when they choose.”

Larry O'Brien, the N.B.A. commissioner, reacted by fining Powers $2,500 and suspending him without pay for three games.

Powers met with O'Brien and Simon Gourdine, the deputy commissioner, yesterday. After the meeting, the N.B.A. issued this statement:

“Powers’ restated his admission that he had exceeded his authority in his failure to enforce league procedure with regard to zone defenses. In addition, he assured them there would be no repetition of this conduct in the future.

“Powers said he fully accepted the three‐game suspension without pay, but asked for a review of the $2,500 fine. O'Brien will take his request under advisement.”

Powers is scheduled to resume work on Saturday.

2) Hand-checking was outlawed in a bid to curtail violence prior to the 1978-79 NBA season. This led to one of the highest single-season increases in league-average offensive rating in NBA history:

1977-78: 100.9 ORtg
1978-79: 103.8 ORtg

1978-79: Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through "rigid enforcement" of rule allowing a defensive player to retain contact with his opponent so long as he does not impede his opponent's progress.

“A defensive player is permitted to • retain contact with his opponent so long as he does not impede his progress. However, hand‐checking will be eliminated by rigid enforcement of this rule by all three officials. The illegal use of hands will not be permitted.”

There was initial backlash from the players:

The National Basketball Players Association says it will work toward the removal of the rule. Most of the players feel the rule is not working for them and is making the game dull for the fans.

Larry Fleisher, the general counsel of the players’ association, said:

“People want to see players work harder to get their 2 points. The thrill of seeing a guy take a 20‐foot jump shot, glide to the basket or stuff a ball is over. What the fan cries out for is hardnosed defense and team play. It's clear the ban on hand‐checking makes it more difficult and you have to go through a whole new learning process to play defense.”

Some players liked the change:

Abdul‐Jabbar agrees with the ban. The change has freed the 7‐foot‐2‐inch Abdul‐Jabbar to unleash his total offensive arsensal.

“For the first time in years,” said Abdul‐Jabbar “we're back to playing basketball. Last season Artis Gilmore would push me out of the way to post up. Now he's reluctant to do that, because they're calling fouls on the contact, which is the way it should be.

“Admittedly, it makes the game tougher for everybody. You have to play defense the way it should be played, instead of relying on pushing, shoving and elbowing. When a player does that now, he can expect to hear whistle and have a foul called on him.”

Jerry West, the Laker coach, echoes his star center's words.

“The ban on hand‐checking would have been great when I was .playing,” said West. “That's one thing I despised more than anything, was the ‐pushing and shoving. The ban has helped the finesse players. I was taught that to play defense, you had to learn to handcheck. But I never liked playing that way. I've always believed that the best way to play defense was to move your feet, not your hands.”

While others didn't:

Most players, feel the ban cramps their style.

Tom Henderson, the Washington Bullets’ backcourt man, has complained:

“They're ruining the game, calling all this hand‐checking. “We have been hand‐checking since we've been in the league and it isn't an easy habit to break.”

Bob Lanier, the Detroit Piston center, said: “I didn't hand‐check much anyway so it didn't make much difference to me on defense. But when you've got to play Kareem, Walton and Gilmore, you've got to rely on hands. How else are you going to stop them?”

M.L. Carr of the Pistons said that the ban benefits the offensive player and it shouldn't be that way. He added: “I don't think the fights were directly attributed to hand‐checking anyway. Mostly they are caused by frustration. A player is upset with himself and he swings out at the nearest guy because he's frustrated.”

Paul Silas, the Seattle SuperSonics’ forward and president of the players’ group, said, “ It is a non‐contact rule in a contact sport.”

The NBA also continually modified and made additions to the Illegal Defense rule during this period of time. Zone had been outlawed since January 11, 1947, but these expanded guidelines significantly clarified what constituted prohibited tactics on defense.

1978-79: Technical foul imposed on team instead of warning for first illegal defense and two technical fouls imposed for second and all subsequent violations. Illegal defense rules modified.

1981-82: Zone defense rules clarified substantially with new rules for Illegal Defensive Alignments.

a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.
• After the first illegal defense violation, the clock is reset to 24 seconds. All subsequent violations result in one free throw and possession of the ball. If any violation occurs during the last 24 seconds of each quarter or overtime period, the offended team receives one free throw.

1983-84: If a shot is taken simultaneously with a whistle for an illegal defense, and is successful, the basket shall count and no penalty shall be imposed.

Other changes were made, like the removal of the "three-to-make-two" and "two-to-make-one" free-throw rules, as well as the addition of the clear-path foul. Along with some alterations to the positioning of throw-ins and jump-balls. But after 1985, aside from flagrant foul modifications to combat Detroit/New York goon ball, almost no major rule changes were made until the 1994-95 NBA season. That's when the three-point line was shortened and hand-checking from baseline to the opposite free-throw line was "banned" again.

3) Whether something was a "new" rule or a re-emphasis/re-interpretation isn't that important. The 2004-05 hand-checking and blocking/charge foul points of emphasis had an obvious and immediate impact on empowering offense and perimeter players.

4) Dribble hand-offs and pick-and-rolls weren't new plays. They were straight out of the '40s, '50s, and '60s, with roots even earlier than that. The addition of the three-point line and the general progression of loosening to dribbling, carrying, and traveling rules has made them more effective in modern times. As well as more illegal screening and less hand-checking/forearm-checking.

The point? Rules and their interpretations heavily influence the meta/most effective/most optimal strategy and therefore the style of play within an era. The '80s and '90s were all about exploiting the Illegal Defense Guidelines which enforced a degree of spacing regardless of offensive ability and handicapped help defense.

These issues were exposed once the pace of play slowed down in the early '90s. It led to isolation-heavy play, whether from the perimeter or the post, two-man play on one side of the court, and defensively-slanted personnel/lineups.

The rule changes, additions, modifications, re-interpretations, and points of emphasis introduced in the late '70s and early '80s changed how NBA teams played on both ends of the court. It had wildly grand short-term success, leading to the NBA's cultural and commercial peak. But it laid the foundation for the ugly Deadball era of the mid-to-late '90s and early '00s

.

Good look into the past.

As I also remind people, illegal defense was a rule that ended up manufacturing spacing regardless of talent level of the players on the court to create space. I don't know if that was necessarily it's intention, but it did that.

This is why teams could play lineups with multiple non spacers and not be concerned. Yes, teams tried to circumvent it, etc, but that's just the reality that it allowed you to have spacing without the players offensive talent generating it.

When the rules changed to totally remove illegal defense and allow zone, rosters didn't just automatically update. You still had a lot of teams with rosters built for iso ball when your Michael Curry's had to be guarded off ball. As defenses adjusted strategy to those new zone rules, and roster construction adjusted slower, those offenses became less efficient on offense because now they didn't have fake spacing.

On the other hand, the few teams that had shooters and systems to generate spacing did not suffer offensively during that span from around 01-02 to 03-04. Now, the league could have waited it out and sure, teams would adjust and build better rosters, but they also saw teams like the Pistons really pushing the limits of handchecking. Handchecking wasn't supposed to be legal necessarily, they had addressed it many times before

The thing we have to remember is that the experience of handchecking is not universally the same. It has had times where it was egregious and times where it was more "normal".

76-77: Hand-checking”: A defensive player is permitted to retain contact with his opponent as long as he does notimpede his opponent's progress.

78-79: Hand checking, and other illegal use of hands was eliminated

94-95: Hand-checking eliminated from the end line in the backcourt to the opposite foul line.

97-98:  A defender will not be permitted to use his forearm to impede the progress of an offensive player who is facing the basket in the frontcourt

99-00: A defender may not make contact with his hands and/or forearms on an offensive player except below the free throw line extended.

01-02: Brief contact initiated by a defensive player will be allowed if it does not impede the progress of the player with
the ball.

04-05: New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.

I don't understand how people can argue handchacking did not impact guards with straight face.
IF you are 6'2 -185 pounds guy, and you are 245 pounds person lays hand on you, he pretty much dictates your direction.

"You can't defend face up person with handcheck" is nonsense. You pretty much block him to dribble to that side. Most nba players are right handed ( probably around 80%) once defender puts his left left hand on you, and you are right handed, you can only really drive to his right ( faster, more coordinated hand) and his stronger side. From start you do two favorable things for defense:
1) dribble on side of your worst hand
2) dribble on side of opponent's stronger hand

Going left, and shooting with right hand isn't easy, it also allows defender to block or contest shot with more accuracy.


But let's just go through some numbers:
2003-04 season -2% FG
vs
2004-05 season -2% FG

by stars:

Iverson 40,8 vs 45,2%
Kobe 46,3 vs 47,2
Tracy 45,5 vs 46,8
Nash 49,8 vs 54,8
Manu 44,5 vs 51,7
Wade 47,7 vs 48,5
Pierce 43,8 vs 48,1
Vince 42,4 vs 46
Arenas 40 vs 46

You can't tell me that it's coincidence that all ( but Ray Allen ) allstar guards improved in same year in same category.
You also can't tell me with straight face that offense got "more spacing" based on one year only ( average 3 point attemps went from 14,9 to 15,8 , efficiency from 34,7% to 35,6% ), but also FTA went for +1,9.

In reality, 2003-04 had 3rd slowed pace, but also 15th lowest FTA season in nba history, games turned into glorified push & shove with ball wrestling.
For crying out loud, Pacers vs Pistons, game 7, 48 min of basketball resulted in 69:65 game. Winning team shot 32% FG . Pistons scored 27 points at a halftime.
That 2003-04, Pistons held 24 out of 82 times opponents under 80 points, 11 times under 70 points.

League figured nobody wanted to watch that crap and simply made new directions to refs. Walking into next season out of nowhere all guards can find their path toward basket ( without getting killed).

 No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line
extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
 Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally
obtained a position.
 Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from
point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
 Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up”
is prohibited.

Those rules were implemented in offseason of 2001.

NBA was very different sport , handchacking is just cute, easy to remember gimmick , but nba players , mostly guards, before 2005 played in era that was rigged against them, and very favorable to lumberjack tall bullies.

Handchecking was addressed by the NBA multiple times exactly because of this. They first addressed it in 76-77. Then they addressed it again in 78-79, then 94-95, then 97-98, 99-00. Then they addressed it again in 04-05, and the timing of when they addressed it was generally based on how bad it was getting. The message wasn't getting through. You can see all the rules addressing handchecking and arms and forearms up above.


What we shouldn't get confused about is that how much hand checking players were getting away with was consistent through all this time. It definitely was not, it changed based on how the league instructed officials and made points of emphasis.

03-04 was egregious, and not only was there more hand checking being gotten away with, it was also, but defenses all around the league had also adjusted to how to better utilize zone being allowed (01-02), while the vast majority of rosters and strategies were still geared towards illegal basketball forced spacing.

03-04 was a perfect storm of a lot of things coming together to produce what many people thought was an awful product. At least if you had all those rules with movement offenses, but it was zone and hand checking with iso ball and few teams with players to space the floor.

But the changes made before the 04-05 season was not only hand checking. That's why I included the 01-02 revision even though it didn't specifically talk about handchecking. The changes before 04-05 addressed hand checking, addressed blocking fouls and contact on the perimeter in general, and addressed consistency on calling 3 in the key, because if you no longer have illegal defense to generate spacing, you can't also not call 3 in the key, because then there's no restriction from clogging the lane.

If you remember that season there were more "touch fouls" on the perimeter, but it wasn't necessarily about hand checking, it was a lot of fouls related to impeding the ball handler also. But they also made a much greater effort that season to allow lanes to be more open, and it 100% helped offensive players. In fact, 04-05 to 06-07 was a very beneficial time for perimeter scorers as the league was trying to ingrain these rules. And as it usually happens, over time some things get more lenient, so they don't call handchecks and blocking fouls as strictly, so they started to get more lenient, and of course players and coaching and strategy also adjusts in addition to that.

[Ainosterhaspie]

That's riding the hip, not hand checking. Handchecking means you can use your hand to provide resistance and actually slow down the defender. Google can define it as well. And resistance is exactly what a lot of people here don't notice. You have to watch for it but it becomes apparent if you care to. It makes a difference.

You are hitting on the core of the hand check challenge for the league. It is something that is very difficult to officiate because the line between impeding the offensive player and merely monitoring their body position and movement is almost impossible the clearly delineate. That's why we get this yoyo of banning and rebanning followed by relaxing enforcement followed by tightening the rules again. How much it is used changes player to player, team to team, and year to year.

The impeding of movement has always been cheating despite the fact that defenders have intermittently gotten away with. When it gets out of hand, the league cracks down for a while. It seems to invariably relax those rules because merely touching the player is natural and harmless part of the game and calling all the incidental touches is as bad for the game as letting the defenders push and hold ball handlers constantly.

I don't think anyone is really arguing that pushing the ball handler isn't impactful. The issue is that its historic prevalence is generally overstated in these types of discussions and its current prevalence tends to be understated. This significantly warps the comparison of eras.

During peak hand check times, there were still long stretches of games, even those involving hand check heavy teams, where it isn't happening for various reasons. That's if you look only at the teams and players most inclined to employ it heavily. Many teams in the league were not as aggressive as the outlier teams.

Also, if you look for it, you can see in the modern game that players find ways around the hand check rule in order to impede the ball handler without handchecking, or in other cases get away with true handchecks impeding movement as the league continues to be inconsistent in enforcing that rule as it has been for decades now. One way players skirt handchecknrules in the modern game is with the arm across the front of the body. They can consistently slow a drive doing this without getting called for fouls. It's the same concept as the hand check but different implementation.

[ScrantonBulls]

Spoiler:

Hands/forearm on the back and hips all over in these videos without foul calls. Same thing as in those Jordan clips. If there's a difference from 90s today regarding hand and forearm checking, the examples you give aren't it.

Watch on YouTube

Jokic at :15 is basically the exact same play as the Payton/Jordan one you point out.

Watch on YouTube

These videos are nice and all, but did you see what Sheed said? You trying to tell me you know more about the NBA than Sheed does?

Me? No, I dont know more about basketball than Sheed. The videos however do. When the videos contradict Sheed, he's wrong, not the videos. We can see what actually happeneded in games instead of relying on flawed memories warped by agendas.