The Explorer wrote:falcolombardi wrote:The Explorer wrote:The data supports the claim that James struggles heavily against elite rim protection or hall of fame centers. Amongst all time great wings, James has absolutely done the worst against hall of fame centers, while facing them the least amount of times in the playoffs. And that's being generous calling a Garnett a center. If Garnett counts as a PF, James looks even worse.
That is showing team record, not effectiveness against bigger front courts or better defenses....
You are quite literally using -jokic- a so-so defensive big as a example of lebron (who scored at elite volume/efficiency despite being 38 and 39 years old) struggles scoring vs bigs?
What the hell are we doing here lol
Again, if lebron struggled vs good or bigger defensive front courts so much more than other players
(Somehow, despite being the more effective perimeter player ever at scoring at the rim by all data)
It shouldnt be hard to find the data backing it up right?
By your approach lebron 2009 ECF is a negative.... seriously dude lol
You’re missing the point. Not talking about his scoring efficiency, talking about his and his team's winning efficiency against HOF centers, some of which are elite rim protectors, but not all. When facing top-tier HOF centers or rim protectors, his teams consistently struggle more compared to other all-time great wings like Jordan, Bird, or Kobe. The data shows that LeBron has faced far fewer elite centers in the playoffs and has a worse team record when he does.
As for Garnett, if we don’t count him as a center, LeBron’s matchups against true rim protectors get even thinner. Using Jokic to pad his stats at age 38 doesn’t negate the trend: his team performance drops against the kind of elite rim protection other great wings dealt with more often.
Regarding 2009 ECF, LeBron despite his stats, still lost in 6 games so it didn't translate to team success against great defenses or bigger front courts.
I don't think there's really a thesis that stands up here.
Issues
1) HoF center ≠ "top tier" rim protectors.
The data cited underlines this by including Dan Issel.
But of Erving's group depending on where one draws the line ... Sikma wasn't that, Malone wasn't that, Unseld wasn't that, I wouldn't say Cowens was that, Beatty ... don't know, possibly,
maybe by the lower standard of the ABA but I don't think he'd be feted if he'd stayed in the NBA, McAdoo ... probably not, no. Even some I'm not pushing on ... they aren't noted for that.
The post above appears to acknowledge this, then mush them back into an homogenus blob straight away.
"talking about his and his team's winning efficiency against HOF centers, some of which are elite rim protectors, but not all. When facing top-tier HOF centers or rim protectors ..."
If the point was about rim-protection Jokic (and I think his D is underrated and he is amazing) wouldn't be there. Apex Roy Hibbert would be.
And then you smush in "bigger front courts".
2) "The data shows that LeBron has faced far fewer elite centers" ... well using HoF is a really bad criteria across eras. Look at when many of Ervings "HoF" opponents got into the hall relative to their retirement. There isn't a like for like comparison in the "data" above.
3) As a measure it isn't fair. Distribution isn't even. Only old LeBron plays Jokic. Only young LeBron plays Ben Wallace. On the flipside ... Haywood ... a power forward whose HoF status has zero to do with his Bird-era play ... counts for Larry Bird. It's arbitrary name recognition rather than about how well the people played even if there were something underlying to be gleamed from a better, fairer execution of the broad idea (to the extent there is a clear, singular, coherent one). That's before getting into attributing team level performance at a raw, binary level, regardless of context as a measure of an individual.
4) Different versions of the theory don't seem to have an internal logic. If it is about rim protection and then LeBron's 2009 ECF performance is still a negative ... Williams, West, Ilgauskas not hitting shots ... Dwight, Rashard, Pietrus, Gortat making shots what does this have to do with LeBron and "true rim protectors".
4a) (see also 3 ... and given the quote to follow I suppose 1 as well)
"Regarding 2009 ECF, LeBron despite his stats, still lost in 6 games so it didn't translate to team success against great defenses or bigger front courts"
So ... "LeBron ... still lost" well no, the team he was on lost.
But more broadly the thesis is "it didn't translate to team success" ... I don't want to be "did you watch the games" but ... LeBron played really well. The boxscore reflects that. For what it's worth in tiny samples so does the on/off type stuff (LeBron with a positve +/- in 3 games which should be enough to send it to a final game ... Cavs 12.69809964 per 48 worse with him off the floor than on it, Cavs amass more than half their negative net points margin in the 27.5 minutes he's not on the court ...). He gives every indication of doing his job ... if one doesn't care about player performance fine but if the case being made is that there's actually a flaw in what LeBron is doing ... some evidence would be nice.
5) Perverse incentives. Several playoff measures have this but these types of particular matchup records would seem to imply it''s better not to play a particular opponent (e.g. by going out sooner) than to lose to them.
