Best Natural Position for SB4

[Indeed]

Positions are largely meaningless at this point.

I'd want Scottie running the actions as the primary creator, but you need a small guard who can bring up the ball under pressure. I'd want him defending on the backline in help, without dealing with the load of defending big Cs, not on the perimeter. So, PF defensively, point guard offensively. Call him a point forward, but the terminology is falling apart as we get more skill sets at different sizes across the league.

I don't understand how he's a PG offensively. He doesn't have many of the key skills a PG needs - limited handle, limited explosiveness, doesn't go downhill very well, not the best pick and roll ball handler, etc. He passes it well and can direct an offense, sure. So can Jokic, but no one says his role is that of a PG offensively.

When I think of big jumbo PGs, I think of Lebron and Luka. Guys who can break the defense at the point of attack in a variety of ways. We can run our offense through Scottie, sure. But I'm not sure we give him the ball and tell him to go create all the time. That's not who he is or will be.

Scottie is a forward.

LeBron is a pretty fair ceiling projection for Scottie. Scottie is lethal running the pick and roll as a ball handler. He should be the initiator of most sets, in my opinion. That makes him the point in my mind, offensively.

Average last year as a PnR handler across all NBA players:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*barnes&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Maybe Malik Monk can play the point as well, they have similar stats on the PnR handler.

[Indeed]

"I dont hate Poeltl, he is just a bad fit" - Scase
^^^ this post - Also Scase

Put me in the camp of Poeltl > Turner.

Turner is not better than Poeltl in any fashion. Average at best defensively, poor rebounder, low IQ, can never stay healthy. Shoots 3s and gets blocks.

Why hate on Turner? Put up 17/7/2 and shoots well. A poor rebounder sure, but there is a lot to like in his game. Would be a great fit with Barnes.

Not to mention that 5/6 top offensive teams in the league have a stretch 5. Having a stretch 5 that can hold up defensively is one of the most valuable things you can have on your team. It gives you a bunch of flexibility and would be especially beneficial to a player like Barnes who has so far been a questionable shooter. Poeltl is better on the defensive end at this point but I’d wager Poeltl’s defensive boost is less than Turner’s offensive boost (especially on a team with Barnes and Barrett).

One of the podcast previously posted mentioned that Poeltl advance stats in points saved is below average last season. Either Poeltl is good but not great defensive C, or our defense was that bad even a great defensive C cannot save the team from being so bad defensively.

Anyway, point above would suggest, the margin of Poeltl and Turner on defense won't be so big of a difference playing on our team, however, offensively, it can be a boost due to our best player isn't exactly a shooter.

[Corson27]

Point forward. Just guard whoever based on lineup rotation.

[billy_hoyle]

You are what you defend? Well, how do you determine what position the player you are defending is? Based on what they defend, and not their offensive skill set? That's wacky nonsense, you obviously choose what "position" you are defending based on what offensive skillsets you are asked to deal with.

Not true. It's about the normal distribution of player archetypes and how well you can defend those of similiar size/athleticism.

Point guards typically guard the smallest and quickest player on the other team. Centers guard the tallest, strongest, slowest (typically).

Jokic isn't a PG. Doncic isn't a PG (he's a amazingly skilled SF), and obviously Kyrie the small and quick player guards the other teams small and quick player, hence Kyrie is the PG on the Mavs.

If you don't take offensive skill set into consideration you don't create a bunch of logical inconsistencies. Which is what you and others do on today's analysis of positions.

Luka definitely runs point. I'm happy to just completely disagree with you on this.

The dude doesn't guard the position. He's a point forward (denoting that he's a forward that runs the point on offence). What is Kyrie? A SG? Was Tim Hardaway Jr the shortest SF in the NBA or was Luka guarding wings?

Like why are you buying into the confusion? You're way of defining positions is completely illogical and ends up with PG Jokic and PF Pat Beverly.

[ForeverTFC]

I don't understand how he's a PG offensively. He doesn't have many of the key skills a PG needs - limited handle, limited explosiveness, doesn't go downhill very well, not the best pick and roll ball handler, etc. He passes it well and can direct an offense, sure. So can Jokic, but no one says his role is that of a PG offensively.

When I think of big jumbo PGs, I think of Lebron and Luka. Guys who can break the defense at the point of attack in a variety of ways. We can run our offense through Scottie, sure. But I'm not sure we give him the ball and tell him to go create all the time. That's not who he is or will be.

Scottie is a forward.

LeBron is a pretty fair ceiling projection for Scottie. Scottie is lethal running the pick and roll as a ball handler. He should be the initiator of most sets, in my opinion. That makes him the point in my mind, offensively.

Average last year as a PnR handler across all NBA players:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*barnes&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Maybe Malik Monk can play the point as well, they have similar stats on the PnR handler.

Yeah, not sure where that came from. Scottie definitely is not lethal as the ball handler in the pick and roll.

Scottie does not have any elite or even above average PG skills outside passing. I don't know why everyone wants him to call him one. There is a reason Darko is here; the offense is the PG.

[dhackett1565]

Not true. It's about the normal distribution of player archetypes and how well you can defend those of similiar size/athleticism.

Point guards typically guard the smallest and quickest player on the other team. Centers guard the tallest, strongest, slowest (typically).

Jokic isn't a PG. Doncic isn't a PG (he's a amazingly skilled SF), and obviously Kyrie the small and quick player guards the other teams small and quick player, hence Kyrie is the PG on the Mavs.

If you don't take offensive skill set into consideration you don't create a bunch of logical inconsistencies. Which is what you and others do on today's analysis of positions.

Luka definitely runs point. I'm happy to just completely disagree with you on this.

The dude doesn't guard the position. He's a point forward (denoting that he's a forward that runs the point on offence). What is Kyrie? A SG? Was Tim Hardaway Jr the shortest SF in the NBA or was Luka guarding wings?

Like why are you buying into the confusion? You're way of defining positions is completely illogical and ends up with PG Jokic and PF Pat Beverly.

Right so, like I said, Scottie is a point forward. Notice how that's a different term than power forward? Or small forward? Positions don't mean what they used to anymore so we keep coming up with more terms to describe the increasingly varying ways in which players differ from each other on each end. To simplify Scottie to PF implies stuff about his offensive role that simply won't be true, and calling him a PG says something about his defence that he's not capable of doing.

My "way" is to not get caught up in calling guys by those traditional positions, how the heck does that equate to me thinking Jokic is a PG? That's the opposite of what I said. Scottie's position should be whatever "primary offensive initiator and PnR creator who defends the backline in help rather than POA and doesn't guard the biggest opponent on the block" equates to. I think PF doesn't quite cover all that, which is my whole point.

[dhackett1565]

LeBron is a pretty fair ceiling projection for Scottie. Scottie is lethal running the pick and roll as a ball handler. He should be the initiator of most sets, in my opinion. That makes him the point in my mind, offensively.

Average last year as a PnR handler across all NBA players:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*barnes&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Maybe Malik Monk can play the point as well, they have similar stats on the PnR handler.

Yeah, not sure where that came from. Scottie definitely is not lethal as the ball handler in the pick and roll.

Scottie does not have any elite or even above average PG skills outside passing. I don't know why everyone wants him to call him one. There is a reason Darko is here; the offense is the PG.

LOL, you guys just looking at possessions where the player scores in PnR is cute. Most sets do not end with the initiator scoring, especially for point guards! There were numerous articles last year on how effective Scottie was as a passer in PnR.

[HangTime]

I think Chameleon has to become and NBA term/unofficial position (like point-forward), and that's exactly what Scottie is.

People have hard time seeing what he really is on the court, and that's a true #1 option.


Also, guarding your position, is the worst way to look at it.

From a traditional sense, what if the
Your lineup looks traditional on offence, but they defend the better like this?

PG - SF
SG - PG
SF - SG
PF - C
C - PF

[SaveTheHens]

I dont get the PF ideas, hes highly mobile and can stick with whoever on the wing, no need for him to be guarding taller 4s all game or getting bruised in the paint. Hed be great in switches and can stay on a 4 but is as natural a 3 as lebron, kd, carmelo, pg.

[ForeverTFC]

Average last year as a PnR handler across all NBA players:
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*barnes&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Maybe Malik Monk can play the point as well, they have similar stats on the PnR handler.

Yeah, not sure where that came from. Scottie definitely is not lethal as the ball handler in the pick and roll.

Scottie does not have any elite or even above average PG skills outside passing. I don't know why everyone wants him to call him one. There is a reason Darko is here; the offense is the PG.

LOL, you guys just looking at possessions where the player scores in PnR is cute. Most sets do not end with the initiator scoring, especially for point guards! There were numerous articles last year on how effective Scottie was as a passer in PnR.

Sure, like I said, he's a great passer. And the fact that he can grade out that well as a passer in the pnr when he's not a scoring threat is a testament to his passing ability and vision. It still does not change the fact that he's not a PG and doesn't have a lot of PG skills.

First and foremost, he has below average handles. Second, he has below average foot speed and first step. Finally, he's still a below average pull up shooter. Put all that together and it's pretty easy to game plan to guard him in that role. There are so many qualities about Scottie that you can prioritize and accentuate. I'm not sure why we need to lean into his weaknesses to such a degree by forcing him into a PG role.

I'm fine with him running the bench and getting reps. Maybe something clicks and/or he proves me wrong. But I'm not a fan of betting the future of the team on Scottie somehow fixing all of his biggest weaknesses when there are other paths with him that have as high - if not higher - ceilings. Is it better to have a top 10 PG or a top 3 PF? I take the latter.

[ForeverTFC]

I dont get the PF ideas, hes highly mobile and can stick with whoever on the wing, no need for him to be guarding taller 4s all game or getting bruised in the paint. Hed be great in switches and can stay on a 4 but is as natural a 3 as lebron, kd, carmelo, pg.

3s and 4s are somewhat interchangeable as many have mentioned. So for me, the determining factor has really become: what is your secondary position? Are you better sliding up or sliding down the roster? He's a 4 because he's much more comfortable (and better) sliding down to guard the 5 than sliding up to guard the 2. And on offense, he's better in the paint/at the elbows than he is on the perimeter.

[Indeed]

I dont get the PF ideas, hes highly mobile and can stick with whoever on the wing, no need for him to be guarding taller 4s all game or getting bruised in the paint. Hed be great in switches and can stay on a 4 but is as natural a 3 as lebron, kd, carmelo, pg.

Highly mobile? That is a joke?
He cannot turn his hip to guard quicker players, and the reason we have him defend as a help defender instead of perimeter defender, because it was a mixed result. He is not switchable, even Sam Vecenie and other better known podcast mentioned it. He is a PF and only a PF.