Retro Player of the Year 1974-75 UPDATE — Rick Barry

[AEnigma]

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1974-75.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 12:30pm PST on Sunday, September 29th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Current Voter List

Spoiler:

________________________________________
Layaway Voters
* B-Mitch 30
* Bad Gatorade
* McBubbles

[trelos6]

The Warriors had the best offense in the RS, and won the title. Barry was a great creator, a terrific high volume scorer, yet his efficiency was never great. Always around +1 rTS%. Considering he was a brilliant FT shooter, his perimeter oriented game detracts from his overall ability to be hyper efficient. Still, the Warriors offense was top of the nba. Bob McAdoo led the league in pp75 with 26.7 at +6.7 rTS%, and whilst shooting a lot from outside. He lost a little of his efficiency from the prior season, but upped his volume. Buffalo were a top 4 offense. Both Buffalo and GSW offense fell off in the post season. Tiny Archibald had a great season also, 23.1 pp75 on +4.2 rTS%, however his team wasn’t great offensively, and was the worst team in the playoffs offensively. Sure, a lot of that isn’t Tiny’s fault, but we’ve seen offensive hubs carry their teams to a good offense (eg. Oscar). Kareem was a little injured, but still produced 25 pp75 on +4.8. However, for my OPOY, I’m going to Houston. They were the best offensive team in the playoffs by far, and tied for the best offense in the regular season. Yes, Rudy Tomjanovich was a great scorer, but Calvin Murphy outpaced him with 20.2 pp75 on +4.8 rTS%. He had some creation chops, though not as good as Barry or Tiny. Finally, over to the ABA, Julius Erving was 24 pp75 on +4 rTS%( ABA). They won the title the year prior and after, and his postseason efficiency is why he’s 3rd only.

OPOY
1.Calvin Murphy
2.Bob McAdoo
3.Julius Erving

HM:Rick Barry

The Bullets were the #1 defensive team with a bullet! However in the playoffs, the Warriors took over with their defense and took home the title. Thurmond and Ray did the swap, and both were still great defensive players. The Bulls were the 2nd best defense, and while both Warriors and Bulls were both stacked defensively, with players like Van Lier, Sloan, Johnson, Barry and Wilkes, their defensive anchors were their centers. Finally, Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes both anchored the league's leading defense in the regular season, but only 3rd best in the playoffs. They formed a formidable duo defensively in their time together at the Bullets. Over in the ABA, Artis and Bobby Jones were the 2 big defensive stars, along with Erving who was a 2 way superstar. Gilmore anchored the best defense in both regular season and playoffs, and for that he’s my DPOY.

DPOY
1.Artis Gilmore
2.Nate Thurmond
3.Elvin Hayes

HM: Wes Unseld

Finally, Player of the Year. It’s a tricky year. Kareem was still great, but his team missed the playoffs and he missed a few games. Bob McAdoo won MVP, and is a strong contender, and Rick Barry led his team to the title with strong 2 way play. Walt Frazier was still solid, as the Knicks were mediocre, and Bob Lanier was also good, but his Detroit Pistons were also mid. Dr J ends up at 1 for his monster 2 way impact, despite the team underperforming in the playoffs. I’m giving McAdoo the runner up, as he dominated the Bullets frontcourt despite the loss in their 7 game series. Kareem 4th, because if his team was any better, I do think he’d have also dominated in the playoffs, however, he wasn’t there so who’s to say. Walt for HM, though it was hard to leave off Cowens and Hayes.

POY
1.Julius Erving
2. Bob McAdoo
3. Artis Gilmore
4. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
5. Rick Barry

HM: Walt Frazier

[Djoker]

Starting from this season, there is now a lot more footage available especially in the playoffs.

Here is the 1975 Finals.

Game 1:

Watch on YouTube

Game 2:

Watch on YouTube

Game 3:

Watch on YouTube

Game 4:

Watch on YouTube

As for my outlook on this year, I will surely vote Barry #1. He is sort of a proto-Bird but more perimeter oriented so weaker rebounder and defender but very good scorer and passer and he led an underdog team to a title including a sweep of the heavily favored Bullets. I think McAdoo, Kareem, Gilmore, Hayes will be my #2-5 in some order but also considering Frazier, Hondo, Cowens, Erving to being up the rear.

[penbeast0]

One of my favorite all time seasons, possibly THE favorite. Only downside was Rick Barry winning a title because he was such a jerk about it, talking about how he singlehandedly carried his team (from radio broadcasts when I lived in Northern California).

Barry is certainly a POY contender, he really did carry his team offensively in a great playoff run.

Washington (Hayes and Unseld) and Boston (Cowens and Havlicek) were the best teams in the regular season; Washington beat Boston in the playoffs.

McAdoo had the best statistical season and won the scoring title. Kareem had a typical year when playing but missed a lot of time and was vocally unhappy which is never good for team cohesion. Lanier had a typical year too, with strong offensive numbers and impact signals but poor team defensive results after the anomaly that was 73-74.

In the ABA, Kentucky chose to change offensive primacy from Dan Issel (arguably his least impressive year) to Artis Gilmore (probably his most impressive year) and won the title.

Nuggets were the best RS team with Bobby Jones having amazing impact in his rookie year and coach Larry Brown putting in a switching defense that created a lot of turnovers and offense while giving opponents fits. Jones's year tends to get underrated because he's neither a primary scorer nor a big shotblocking center though he did average close to 2 blocks and 2 steals a game while shooting over .600 without being a low post guy.

New York tied Kentucky for the other strong RS with a big edge over San Antonio and Indiana. Julius tied for MVP with league scoring leader George McGinnis. Moses Malone was a rebounding force even if not the scorer he became in the NBA. With Kareem injured, this may be the one year I would say the average ABA team is equivalent to, maybe better, than the NBA except for . . . Virginia who really really sucked.

POY top 5 candidates are at least 10 deep with no one obvious leader.
1. Gilmore
2. Barry
3. Erving
4. McAdoo
5. Bobby Jones

[One_and_Done]

Gilmore and Erving are going to be my top 2 for sure.

[AEnigma]

Erving might be excluded from my ballot if this were solely an ABA list, behind Gilmore, McGinnis, Barnes, and Jones at minimum, so when we add in the NBA, he does not even come close. Erving won co-MVP, did not secure a 1-seed or the top SRS, was outplayed by Marvin Barnes in the playoffs, and suffered an upset worse and more embarrassing than any ever seen in the NBA: 28-win disparity (the 2007 Mavericks/Warriors featured a 25-win disparity) and 10.6 SRS disparity (the 1995 Sonics/Lakers featured a 7.9 SRS disparity). Indefensible. Meanwhile, the other co-MVP led his team to the Finals through the exact path that will have pretty much all of us voting Erving #1 next year, with relatively similar production.

I would sooner vote a postseason-less Kareem #1, because he was ultimately just as a relevant to the story of the season as Erving was, and at least we could say he was still the best player. I personally think those missed regular season games meant he was less valuable in aggregate than McAdoo and Barry and Gilmore were, and it similarly weighs on me that Lanier managed to bring a weak Pistons group (1-5 without Lanier) to the playoffs in the same division, but I recognise Kareem may have established enough of an edge per game for that not to be a given.

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Rick Barry
2. George McGinnis
3. Bob McAdoo

Barry’s best offensive season, capped off with a title; I would have picked him for MVP. McGinnis shoulders a truly massive offensive load and takes out two of the three best teams in the league before falling to the best. And McAdoo mounts a brilliant effort against a 6.5 SRS defensive juggernaut but falls just short. Murphy is worse than he was in 1974 and will be in 1976 — playing less, playmaking less, and scoring less efficiently — and while I am willing to acknowledge his better individual seasons, frankly I think quite a few point guards (e.g. Walt Frazier or Tiny Archibald) could lead top offences in his place next to Rudy T.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Elvin Hayes
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Cliff Ray

The backbones of two -6 defences, and then the backbone of the NBA title winner. Both Hayes and Gilmore had strong help relative to their leagues, with neither seeming to individually justify the leaps their teams experienced relative to surrounding seasons. The Colonels added a top ABA defensive guard and forward as starters, but I am less clear on what, aside from generally improved bench depth, sparked such a significant uptick for the Bullets compared to what they were in 1973 when Unseld was healthy.

Player of the Year

1. Rick Barry
2. Bob McAdoo
3. Artis Gilmore
4. Elvin Hayes
5. George McGinnis

I will focus on McGinnis and Hayes, seeing as they are the most frequently disrespected.

Aside from that stunning 1976 Finals against the Nuggets, peak Erving’s postseasons were not as far removed from peak McGinnis’s postseason as typically portrayed.

McGinnis averages versus the 1974 Stars: 27.4/14.3/4.3 (with ~4 turnovers) on 55.3% efficiency
Erving averages versus the 1974 Stars: 28.2/11.4/5 (with 4.6 turnovers) on 55.5% efficiency

McGinnis averages versus the 3.89 SRS 1975 Spurs: 38.3/18.8/9.2 (with 7.3 turnovers) on 50.1% efficiency
Erving averages versus the 3.82 SRS 1976 Spurs: 32.1/11.3/4.6 (with 3.3 turnovers) on 56.7% efficiency

McGinnis’s team was not good enough to compete in the Finals, and I think Gilmore was better regardless, but McGinnis was a top three ABA regular season player that year and one of the two best ABA postseason players. The overall playmaking load he shouldered was unprecedented to that point and would not be replicated until Jordan.

Hayes was the best player on a 60-win, 6.5-SRS team, and the anchor of a -6 defence (although the support around him was certainly strong). Despite the Finals sweep, on balance they carried that performance over into the postseason, managing a road upset against a healthy defending champion Celtics team that had been better than the Bullets when Cowens played (64-win pace). Hayes was a marginally below average efficiency scorer… but he was one of two legitimate scoring options on the team (with six-time ABA all-star Jimmy Jones mysteriously unable to crack the starting guard rotation ), and Phil Chenier matched his efficiency in the regular season. Was he a true top five player, no, but he was close enough that I think the overall excellence — best franchise regular season and arguably second-best franchise postseason — merits acknowledgment.

All that praise for the Bullets also ties back to my top two, who played brilliantly against them.

[One_and_Done]

1. Gilmore
2. Dr J
3. Kareem

4. Rick Barry
5. McAdoo

HM: McGinnis

I have Gilmore over Erving this year. It seems like he had more impact than Erving when you consider the playoffs too. Gilmore got the Colonels to a championship, while Erving bowed out in the first round to the pitiful St Louis Spirits. Hard to rank Erving over Gilmore given that, even if he was generally the better player and had a garbage team around him.

Kareem is still #3 for me. Despite missing 17 games with an injury and probably phoning it in to force a trade, he was still Kareem. I can’t drop him lower than this over inferior players. Barry and McAdoo were close, but it feels like Barry helped his team mates more and was more conducive to winning than McAdoo tended to be.

[Djoker]

I totally agree with AEnigma that Erving should not make the ballot. He was upset in the 1st round by a horrible team while playing below par. It's funny seeing McGinnis average 5.3 turnovers a game in the RS and then 6.2 turnovers a game (!) in the PS though!

[AEnigma]

He was a high turnover player but in the postseason he was taking thirty shots a game and averaging eight assists. Obviously not good to average that many turnovers, but relative to his offensive load it is nothing crazy. Young Barkley was a worse turnover liability despite the lower average, as an immediate forward comparison.

[ShaqAttac]

KAREEM
misses pos but mega wowy scores 30 and playing great d. ain't blamin him for the bucks being scrubs. still most impact so i vote 1.

BARRY

wins chip and sweeps a 60-win team even tho thurmond gone. 30/6 prob had something to do with that.

GILMORE
wins lots of games and then dominates playoff with great d and o.

McADOO
Wins MVP. Loses 1st round but it to a team that made the finals and his numbers went up so he still top high

ERVING
he wins mvp but mega choke in first round. like eni say maybe biggest choke ever. maybe he shouldnt even be top 5 tbh.

[70sFan]

1. Gilmore
2. Dr J
3. Kareem

4. Rick Barry
5. McAdoo

HM: McGinnis

I have Gilmore over Erving this year. It seems like he had more impact than Erving when you consider the playoffs too. Gilmore got the Colonels to a championship, while Erving bowed out in the first round to the pitiful St Louis Spirits. Hard to rank Erving over Gilmore given that, even if he was generally the better player and had a garbage team around him.

Kareem is still #3 for me. Despite missing 17 games with an injury and probably phoning it in to force a trade, he was still Kareem. I can’t drop him lower than this over inferior players. Barry and McAdoo were close, but it feels like Barry helped his team mates more and was more conducive to winning than McAdoo tended to be.

If you genuinely believe that the ABA was stronger than the NBA, then why you have McGinnis outside of top 5? Also, why Gervin below McAdoo?

[One_and_Done]

1. Gilmore
2. Dr J
3. Kareem

4. Rick Barry
5. McAdoo

HM: McGinnis

I have Gilmore over Erving this year. It seems like he had more impact than Erving when you consider the playoffs too. Gilmore got the Colonels to a championship, while Erving bowed out in the first round to the pitiful St Louis Spirits. Hard to rank Erving over Gilmore given that, even if he was generally the better player and had a garbage team around him.

Kareem is still #3 for me. Despite missing 17 games with an injury and probably phoning it in to force a trade, he was still Kareem. I can’t drop him lower than this over inferior players. Barry and McAdoo were close, but it feels like Barry helped his team mates more and was more conducive to winning than McAdoo tended to be.

If you genuinely believe that the ABA was stronger than the NBA, then why you have McGinnis outside of top 5? Also, why Gervin below McAdoo?

We're talking about the league as a whole, not individual players in any given year being in the top 5. Anyway, my top 2 are ABA players, and a third played in the ABA too.

[Dutchball97]

Barry and Gilmore will fighting it out for the top spot for me. Neither was the top guy in their respective league in the regular season but that definitely changed in the play-offs.

McGinnis will 100% make my ballot as well, not quite sure where exactly but you can't have a co-MVP who goes completely off in the post-season not on your ballot unless you think the ABA was still nowhere near the NBA at this point. McAdoo isn't as certain but with a dominant regular season and a strong but short post-season it should be enough against this field.

Last spot could go all sorts of ways. Erving has a somewhat similar case to McAdoo with the best regular season in their respective league followed by a rather quick play-off exit but Erving's individual performance was down quite a bit, probably too much to make it. Hayes and Cowens had very solid all around seasons but weren't always clearly 'leading' their teams. Frazier and Lanier had good but not quite elite regular seasons before performing very well in 2-1 first round losses. Maybe Bobby Jones can throw his name in the hat as well.

Kareem of course won't make it because he missed the post-season. He didn't even have a particularly dominant regular season either and missed games on top of that. I'm honestly suprised people include Kareem on their ballots this season, let alone have him in contention for the top spot.

[AEnigma]

Hayes and Cowens had very solid all around seasons but weren't always clearly 'leading' their teams.

Disagree on this, unless you for some reason mean leading the locker-room. Those two were recognised as the most important players on their teams by both their peers and by the data indicators we have on hand. Both were the defensive leaders (of course with good support) and per game minute leaders in both the postseason and regular season. They were also their teams’ best regular season scorers, although in the postseason their guards were more reliable.

Between the two, I think Cowens was a better player, but nothing this year particularly supports a vote ahead of Hayes, who outplayed him head-to-head and provided a lot more aggregate value to his team (Cowens played less this year than Kareem did).

[LA Bird]

I am guessing Barry is going to run away with #1 based on the early votes but it's such an overrated season IMO. If he had extremely hot shooting that entire playoffs run to carry the Warriors to the title, he would at least have a case. But they won because of their postseason defense while Barry's numbers declined across the board from a regular season where he wasn't near the MVP in the first place already. Barry is a long time veteran who had played in both leagues and other than a season 8 years ago, he had never even been in the conversation for top 5. But somehow he skyrockets to #1 this season and dropped off immediately the next? Because of just one series? Arguments for Barry begin and end with the championship but even for a ring counter, Gilmore did it in a comparable league while being more dominant in both the regular season and playoffs. The various peak projects on this very same board have repeatedly ranked Gilmore from the same season higher (by 9 spots most recently) but this is probably the same disconnect which saw Ewing consistently ranking much higher than Reed/Frazier and yet going lower in a Knicks-only peak list.

[B-Mitch 30]

Barry's efficiency this year and a lot of his seasons was a bit dependent on his absurd free throw accuracy, but his field goal percentages were still above average for most of his career and this season. I know everyone hates steals as a stat, but I don't think it's a coincidence Barry led the league in it while the Warriors had a good defense that truly shined in the playoffs.

[Djoker]

I am guessing Barry is going to run away with #1 based on the early votes but it's such an overrated season IMO. If he had extremely hot shooting that entire playoffs run to carry the Warriors to the title, he would at least have a case. But they won because of their postseason defense while Barry's numbers declined across the board from a regular season where he wasn't near the MVP in the first place already. Barry is a long time veteran who had played in both leagues and other than a season 8 years ago, he had never even been in the conversation for top 5. But somehow he skyrockets to #1 this season and dropped off immediately the next? Because of just one series? Arguments for Barry begin and end with the championship but even for a ring counter, Gilmore did it in a comparable league while being more dominant in both the regular season and playoffs. The various peak projects on this very same board have repeatedly ranked Gilmore from the same season higher (by 9 spots most recently) but this is probably the same disconnect which saw Ewing consistently ranking much higher than Reed/Frazier and yet going lower in a Knicks-only peak list.

To be fair, Barry had a MUCH better season in 1975 than in any surrounding years. Not just because he won the title either. Just better numbers across the board. In other seasons he was below average in terms of efficiency too but in 1975 he's above average.

[AEnigma]

I am guessing Barry is going to run away with #1 based on the early votes but it's such an overrated season IMO. If he had extremely hot shooting that entire playoffs run to carry the Warriors to the title, he would at least have a case. But they won because of their postseason defense

This is not a real argument for anything unless you are suggesting that Barry was not by a distance the team’s best player.

while Barry's numbers declined across the board from a regular season

30.6/5.7/6.2/0.4/2.9 on 50.9% efficiency across 80 regular season games ——> 28.2/5.5/6.1/0.9/2.9 on 50.5% efficiency across 17 games against a slate of teams with a -3 weighted defensive rating. In the regular season, Barry provided 27.5% of his team’s points. In the postseason, Barry provided 28.1% of his team’s points — and did so at greater efficiency relative to the rest of the team. That is not a real decline, no, and frankly I do not believe you think it is either.

where he wasn't near the MVP in the first place already.

He would have been my vote and many of our votes. I do not care that he finished behind McAdoo, Hayes, and 65 games of Cowens any more than I cared that Lanier finished behind McAdoo last season, or that Unseld won MVP in 1969, or that Lenny Wilkens was second in 1968. This is a gesture at nothing.

Barry is a long time veteran who had played in both leagues and other than a season 8 years ago, he had never even been in the conversation for top 5. But somehow he skyrockets to #1 this season and dropped off immediately the next? Because of just one series? Arguments for Barry begin and end with the championship but even for a ring counter, Gilmore did it in a comparable league while being more dominant in both the regular season and playoffs. The various peak projects on this very same board have repeatedly ranked Gilmore from the same season higher (by 9 spots most recently) but this is probably the same disconnect which saw Ewing consistently ranking much higher than Reed/Frazier and yet going lower in a Knicks-only peak list.

Yet again, most of us are not treating this as an annual best player ranking — and even if that were what we were doing, this is a clear peak for him in a year where most of the other best players either missed the postseason (Kareem) or did nothing in the postseason (Lanier and Erving), which is the exact standard that has weighed against Barry in six of the prior seven seasons.

To whatever marginal extent the peaks projects are at all relevant here (I did not vote for Gilmore…), that still leaves Barry top two, because McAdoo has not managed the same consistent advantage.

[Dr Positivity]

I'll be happy to get out of the NBA/ABA split years, I never feel good about these rankings.

1. Dr J - The best player in ABA with impact on both ends and Kareem missed time.

2. Rick Barry - While I hate the idea of counting da rings, the playmaking makes him arguably as valuable on offense as McAdoo and it looks like his best defensive season, and the competition lightens this year. The supporting cast is probably better than their name/numbers (I have heard they have a bench mob for the ages) but there's a reason why Brunson's Knicks didn't win the title this year.

3. Bob McAdoo - We'll give him the edge over missed GP Kareem, as McAdoo has the clear offensive advantage to make up for worse D.

4. Artis Gilmore - We'll go with the ABA champion here with great D and efficiency, although I like his supporting cast.

5. Walt Frazier - Frazier has another prime season and takes Knicks to playoffs with some of his friends gone, and is great there in small 3 games.

I originally had Kareem on but I think the moodiness and psychological impact on his team of his impending exit is enough for me to downgrade him.

Offensive player of the year

1. Tiny Archibald
2. Rick Barry
3. Bob McAdoo

Defensive player of the year

1. Bobby Jones
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Elvin Hayes

[Owly]

I am guessing Barry is going to run away with #1 based on the early votes but it's such an overrated season IMO. If he had extremely hot shooting that entire playoffs run to carry the Warriors to the title, he would at least have a case. But they won because of their postseason defense while Barry's numbers declined across the board from a regular season where he wasn't near the MVP in the first place already. Barry is a long time veteran who had played in both leagues and other than a season 8 years ago, he had never even been in the conversation for top 5. But somehow he skyrockets to #1 this season and dropped off immediately the next? Because of just one series? Arguments for Barry begin and end with the championship but even for a ring counter, Gilmore did it in a comparable league while being more dominant in both the regular season and playoffs. The various peak projects on this very same board have repeatedly ranked Gilmore from the same season higher (by 9 spots most recently) but this is probably the same disconnect which saw Ewing consistently ranking much higher than Reed/Frazier and yet going lower in a Knicks-only peak list.

I will say I'm broadly in the Barry-skeptic camp. I'm a non-voter, don't tend to focus in on specific years so much and would tend towards evaluating the player in the year rather than the "year" which might tilt others more towards playoff progression and perhaps narrative and rings etc.

But Barry didn't ever really put together the volume scoring and efficiency of his early career and the playmaking of later.

My impression is that they won with defense in the playoffs and whilst I don't claim to have a great read on exactly where he is there, especially year-to-year, the mythology around him, in my experience, doesn't tend to focus much on him on that end.

Then the next year ... the team doesn't change that much and over the larger RS sample ... whilst he's substantially box worse (trailing Smith in PER, OWS/48 and OBPM) the team gets significantly better. Now there's stuff that doesn't go into the boxscore, across year impact-y reads are tough , very noise prone in that it could be all other players each change a bit in the same direction and suddenly your baseline is way off ... so how much another year matters is up for debate. One could argue this against a position that '75 was Barry and a bunch of ... "X" I guess the term would dictate how strong the case is but to the extent it's dismissive of the "cast" success with a less central Barry might weaken that.