John Stockton destroying Gilbert Arenas is on video. Just sayin...

[tsherkin]

If only Wilt had the sam

Very few people are dim enough to suggest Wilt wouldnt be excellent in any era...

[tsherkin]

So, the video.

I am with One_and_Done on this, I think. The video doesn't prove a lot. What it shows is that the PnR is a very effective set at taking an individual defender out, which we have known for a long time. And that Stockton had a nice pull-up at the FT line, and was an excellent passer, particularly with one hand. Utah had a very polished offensive system. And those Warriors were the 2nd-worst defense in the league that season, 28th of 29.

So I don't know that one video really does much to showcase anything.

Arenas is still a moron who spouts off stupid hot takes, of course. That's a given. He's like a dumber Stephen A. Smith with less skill in his role. But Old Man Stockton sticking it to the crappy 02 Warriors defense and rookie Arenas isn't really a showcase of anything except the efficacy of that particular set, especially when run by a veteran team.

[Bergmaniac]

Arenas' point was that Jordan was much better athletically than the players who guarded him in the 90s and nothing in this video disproves that claim in any way.

[tsherkin]

Arenas' point was that Jordan was much better athletically than the players who guarded him in the 90s and nothing in this video disproves that claim.

Jordan was one of the maybe three or four best physical specimens in the league during his career. He would remain a standout athlete in today's game. Arenas' point isn't wrong, it just lacks meaningful substance. Jordan didn't dominate just on the basis of his athleticism.

[dk1115]

I can see the similarities in the way they play; Stockton and Jrue. For the era, Jrue is really direct to his move. Both good defenders.

[brutalitops]

This just in, one of the best PG's ever known for his physicality had the better of young player.

Amazing OP. Insightful

[bdp31770]

I think Stockton's athleticism is underrated in part because he's white, and not a great leaper by NBA standards. All other aspects of athleticism, lateral quickness, full court speed, endurance, etc, he had at world class levels. I remember watching a game, and the announcer praising a past-his-prime Stockton for being able to consistently stay in front of a young Derek Fisher.

[Tim Kempton]

Stockton obviously wasn't flashy but not many guys even attempt that pass to Malone at 0:31 of the 1st video. Very slick dish in a tight, cluttered area.

[ballzboyee]

Arenas' point was that Jordan was much better athletically than the players who guarded him in the 90s and nothing in this video disproves that claim in any way.

Jordan wasn't the best player on his college team or the best player in the NCAA while he was in college. If he was such transcendent athlete compared to this peers in the 1980's, then why was he not better than James Worthy immediately upon arriving at UNC? We are talking about college. Jordan was even the first pick in the draft in 1984. Hakeem was. If we so great as a transcendent athlete, then why did get beat out for MVP in his prime by Magic and Barkley multiple times? Why couldn't Jordan win the 1985 Slam Dunk Contest over Dominique? If Jordan were simply such a great athlete over everybody else from that era, then he should never lose a straight forward athletic competition like a dunk contest. This argument is revisionism based upon Jordan's dominance twenty years removed by people who didn't watch that era. If Jordan's wins three rings instead of six, then nobody is making this claim.

Pure athleticism can only take you so far. What separated Jordan was his mental game and basketball IQ. Likewise, Stockton's all-around game and basketball IQ allowed him to have a success against players who were objectively better athletes than Arenas. Utah swept the Kobe-Shaq Lakers, btw. What exactly is athleticism in terms of real competition? If Stockton on a scale from 0 - 100 is a 99 in a PnR offense, then he has maximized his skill set and is more athletic than the guy who only gets to an 80 in some other area even though that player might have better physical measaruables. In a competitive game, that is what really counts toward athleticism. Not some intangible and opaque quality that cannot be quantified on the court. Every time I hear to the word athleticism, nobody wants to say what exactly they are talking about. Is Jokic as athletic compared to centers from the 1990's? No, he's not. There's is nothing about him that is special in terms of his physical tangibles compared to the monster bigs from the 1990's. If he played in the 1990's, he would be a great player but he would just be another center. In today's game, he's the best player in the league. He just has the skills and a high basketball IQ and there is nobody that can check him because it is a finesse league. Stockton had the skills the same way as Jokic. You put Stockton in a finesse league, he's going to have his way with these players. It would be too easy for him.

[ballzboyee]

I think Stockton's athleticism is underrated in part because he's white, and not a great leaper by NBA standards. All other aspects of athleticism, lateral quickness, full court speed, endurance, etc, he had at world class levels. I remember watching a game, and the announcer praising a past-his-prime Stockton for being able to consistently stay in front of a young Derek Fisher.

He had elite court vision and awareness with elite first-step quickness and very high basketball IQ. The kind of player that's in the right play in the right position 99 times out of 100. A very annoying player to face. That's why Gary Payton said Stockton was so hard to play against. The guy kills you slowly. You look up at the end of the game and Stockton has 20 pts 10 ast and 4 stl and your losing by 20. Arenas got a little taste of it, but it was at the end of Stockton's career. You can't take any plays off against him at all. What's going to change if we move Stockton to a different era? Is he going to see a better defensive PG than Gary Payton? NO.

Watch on YouTube

[GeorgeSears]

Gil is a toxic presence within the NBA community. A net negative.

[Nate505]

Big deal, he was doing that against plumbers and firemen.

So I've heard anyways.

[og15]

Arenas' point was that Jordan was much better athletically than the players who guarded him in the 90s and nothing in this video disproves that claim in any way.

Jordan wasn't the best player on his college team or the best player in the NCAA while he was in college. If he was such transcendent athlete compares to this peers in the 1980's, then why was he not better than James Worthy immediately upon arriving at UNC? We are talking about college. Jordan was even the first pick in the draft in 1984. Hakeem was. If we so great as a transcendent athlete, then why did get beat out for MVP in his prime by Magic and Barkley multiple times? Why couldn't Jordan win the 1985 Slam Dunk Contest of Dominique? If Jordan were simply such a great athlete over everybody else from that era, then he should never lose a straight forward athletic competition like a dunk contest. This argument is revisionism based upon Jordan's dominance twenty years removed by people who didn't watch that era. If Jordan's wins three rings instead of six, then nobody is making this claim.

Pure athleticism can only take you so far. What separated Jordan was his mental game and basketball IQ. Likewise, Stockton's all-around game and basketball IQ allowed him to have a success against players who were objectively better athletes than Arenas. Utah swept the Kobe-Shaq Lakers, btw. What exactly is athleticism in terms of real competition? If Stockton on a scale from 0 - 100 is a 99 in a PnR offense, then he has maximized his skill set and is more athletic than the guy who only gets to an 80 in some other area even though that player might have better physical measaruables. In a competitive game, that is what really counts toward athleticism. Not some intangible and opaque quality that cannot be quantified on the court. Every time I hear to the word athleticism, nobody wants to say what exactly they are talking about. Is Jokic as athletic compared to centers from the 1990's? No, he's not. There's is nothing about him that is special in terms of his physical tangibles compared to the monster bigs from the 1990's. If he played in the 1990's, he would be a great player but he would just be another center. In today's game, he's the best player in the league. He just has the skills and a high basketball IQ and there is nobody that can check him because it is a finesse league. Stockton had the skills the same way as Jokic. You put Stockton in a finesse league, he's going to have his way with these players. It would be too easy for him.

Jordan was a transcendent athlete, 90% of the guys in the top 10 All-Time (or argued there) are also transcendent athletes. We have guys like Wilt, Shaq, Lebron, Kareem, Magic, Russell, etc, these are all people with some sort of combination of physical tools (height, length, strength, speed, quickness, jumping, hand size, etc) that are beyond the normal good NBA athlete. These guys had the skill AND the physical tools, I think it is already a given that we're talking about the high skilled players WITH physical tools.

Being a transcendent athlete doesn't mean you will then just automatically be the best player compared to everyone at every level. Worthy was 2 years older than Jordan. He was a junior in college when Jordan was a freshman. Saying, "well Jordan wasn't better than a junior, so it means his athleticism wasn't elite" is not an argument for anything.

It should already be settled that basketball is not about just physical tools, but if you have that highest level of skill AND the highest level of a combination of physical tools, then yes, it is a good advantage. Jordan was still developing his skills and game after his freshman year, and also into the NBA.

Even though I don't think the point Arenas makes matters like he thinks it does, he does clarify that by "his competition", he's talking about the SG's he's going against. The thing is that even with physical tools, keeping up with upper echelon athleticism + skills guys is very hard. But we also have to add that even then, you're still not going to have 15 guys starting at SG who can keep up with an elite SG.

Let's take the early/mid 00's, you could have Kobe, Tmac, Ray Allen, Vince, can add Wade as he got good quick. That's 4-5 guys. Ray Allen is great, but not an elite athlete like that. Vince is a great athlete vertically and straight line, but not very good laterally and he wasn't containing anyone on defense. Tmac's defense after he became a star was not the same. Kobe was a very good athlete, though not elite like a Jordan, and he could defend. Wade is tough, but he isn't shutting him down, he wasn't shutting down Kobe who is less athletic. Jordan would still have the majority of his games being guarded by guys like Bruce Bowen, Raja Bell, Larry Hughes, DeShawn Stevenson, Trenton Hassell, Shane Battier etc. A guy like Michael Redd might have to check him too. I just don't know where this idea that there's been some time where every team just had some Kawhi Leonard or Andre Iguodala to throw at you. No, those guys are STILL few and far between.

Look, from 13-14 to 16-17, if Jordan played against the Clippers, the opposing SG matchup would be Redick/Jamal Crawford, and the best matchup the Clippers could muster would be Matt Barnes. If he was playing the Blazers, the opposing SG matchup would be CJ McCollum. Klay is a very good player, but again, if you're going by opposing SG matchup, against the Warriors, it's Klay, Klay is not anything special as an athlete. Many other teams would have pretty weak options. The strong options aren't stars, Tony Allen, Andre Roberson, Wesley Matthews, Avery Bradley, Danny Green. Many of the best options would be SF's sliding over, and most of the guys they aren't the best options because of a 40 inch vertical and being quicker or faster.

Let's look at the Lakers 07-08 finals run, the opposing SG matchup for Kobe was vs Denver, technically no actual SG because they went big and had KMart guarding Kobe, and then JR Smith would be there a bit. I mean a PF/SF/C and JR Smith. vs Utah the main matchup is Ronnie Brewer, no one is going to remember him to hail him for anything, solid defender, but not memorable. vs San Antonio, it's 36 year old Bruce Bowen. Great defender, but it's not because of athleticism of a 40 inch vertical or any of that. vs Boston, Ray Allen, individually alone he's solid and nothing special, but in the Boston team and scheme, that's a tough matchup.

Wade in 05-06 got Ben Gordon and Kirk Hinrich, Vince, Rip, Adrian Griffin and Josh Howard.

Defense is not less than, but is more than physical profile
People are always trying to throw out these athleticism arguments, but the reality of who players actually go against doesn't match up with that, and many times, it's not the most athletic defender that give guys the biggest trouble. Like if a guy is matchup up against Zach Lavine in a playoff series he's licking his chops, but he would be more annoyed to go against Terrance Mann, but Terrance Mann is just a standard athlete in terms of the things people would notice while Lavine can jump out of the gym, blah, blah, blah.

...but in the end, teams just try and find the best matchup. Jordan was guarded by many different guys, PG's, SG's, SF's, whomever the opposing team thought could do the best job. Just like Denver had Kenyon Martin their PF guarding Kobe not Carmelo or Kleiza or AI. So saying, "well many teams didn't have athletic SG's" doesn't really mean that much, first because the best athletes in the jumping and running sense aren't always the best defenders, secondly because you don't have to use the exact position matchup, duh, and third, because many times the best defenders are even the guys who technically are not very athletic in the jump and run sense (Bowen, Battier, Raja, Artest, etc).

KCP is 6'5 like 210, isn't jumping out of the gym, but he's the guy many contenders would love as their SG defender. Jrue Holiday is 6'4 has a 34 inch vertical, if there was a player with his profile in the 90's, without truly assessing, people would be saying, "look at the defender, too small, not that athletic", and look at the Zach Lavine's that we have these days, or look at guys like Lonnie Walker

Derrick White, 6'4, in the low 200lbs range, nice 36-37 inch vertical, solid length, but again, people will be like, "oh, but all these 6'7 guys with 40 inch verticals", oh, you mean Keon Johnson?

Then to add, even more so now, teams aim to pick on weak defenders (sometimes to their detriment, but that's a different convo) and try and shed the primary defender, so while that guy will get a chance to defend a lot of possessions, the offense will find ways to get that best defender off their guy as much as possible too.

[Phystic]

I never realized AK47 played with Malone and Stockton. Wow.

[ballzboyee]

Jordan was a transcendent athlete, but he was not more physically dominant than players like Kareem, Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem, etc. in my opinion. Jordan's offensive package was the difference, not simply athleticism. I made a long post on here that in my opinion what separated Jordan from every two guard in history was his freakish hand size which allowed him to have constant misdirection and change of direction with the ball both standing still and off the dribble, but he needed the basketball IQ and skill to take advantage of it. I'm sorry but Jordan's overall physical profile while extraordinary is not THAT remarkable. The narrative is just an oversimplification. It took Jordan three years to take down the Pistons. That's not a physical transcendence manifested on the league immediately, but a story of trial and error. He was getting beat a lot before he started winning.

Watch on YouTube

[floppymoose]

Stocktons season at 40 was pretty amazing. I guess MJs was better… maybe?

[Lost92Bricks]

I'm sorry but Jordan's overall physical profile while extraordinary is not THAT remarkable. The narrative is just an oversimplification. It took Jordan three years to take down the Pistons. That's not a physical transcendence manifested on the league immediately, but a story of trial and error. He was getting beat a lot before he started winning.

You mean just like how Shaq couldn't take down the Jazz and kept getting swept? Or Lebron and the Celtics? Or WILT and the Celtics?

[BlackThought]

Arenas isn't a good defender, not really sure what the point of this video is about.

[theonlyclutch]

Going off in a random regular season game matters now?

Watch on YouTube

Trae Young hung 48 points on a defense with Jrue as PoA and Giannis/Lopez as anchor in the playoffs, somehow don't ever see him talked about in such a glowing light...

[SweaterBae]

lol