Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

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Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 

Post#1 » by AEnigma » Mon Sep 30, 2024 3:00 am

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1975-76.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 00:00pm EST on Thursday, October 3rd. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#2 » by Djoker » Mon Sep 30, 2024 3:45 am

Erving will be my #1. Kareem and Cowens definitely making the ballot.

Lakers missed the playoffs despite the 4th best record and 3rd highest SRS in their conference because they were the 4th team in their division. From what I'm aware the unusual seeding method was changed in the very next season.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#3 » by One_and_Done » Mon Sep 30, 2024 4:06 am

1. Kareem
2. Dr J

3. Gilmore
4. Barry
5. McAdoo

The same 5 I had last time, but with Kareem back at #1 now that he's healthy and playing hard again. Dr J is the only other player I have as close. The reasoning is the same for these 2; they're the 2 best players, with by far the biggest impact. Dr J carried a rubbish team to the title, and Kareem's Lakers team was pretty poor.

Gilmore was just as good in 76 as 75, when I had him 1st overall, he was just in a worse situation (eg no Dan Issel).

Barry and McAdoo are NY last 2, are not much separates them. I could easily have gone McAdoo over Barry, but I feel Barry is better than his stats while McAdoo is the reverse.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#4 » by AEnigma » Mon Sep 30, 2024 4:09 am

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Rick Barry
2. Julius Erving
3. Paul Westphal


Been vacillating with this category, but will keep it simple: Erving is the best offensive player in the ABA and wins the title with middling offensive support. However, I think Barry’s passing and spacing is more offensively valuable, and I am not going to over-index on a down efficiency year when he was still the primary focus of every opposing defence and with perhaps one exception took over in the postseason. And then Paul Westphal deserves recognition as the lead offensive player for the team which managed to upset Barry’s Warriors, especially with Calvin Murphy and Kareem missing the postseason.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Elvin Hayes
2. Dave Cowens
3. Artis Gilmore


Hayes is the best defender on the second-best defensive team (with the best team being a true collective effort), and he even posts block rates exceeding Gilmore’s. Early postseason exit, but not to any particular fault of their defence, with both Hayes and the Bullets overall seeing an increase in defensive efficacy.

Cowens is still part of an ensemble, and we will see the Silas effect next year, but overall Cowens is the most important defender in aggregate for a relatively clean title team.

The Colonels see a five-point defensive drop from the prior year and Gilmore has his prime low in blocks and block rate, none of which is enough to push him off the ballot yet.

Honourable mention to Bill Walton, who characteristically may have pushed for a ballot slot with more games played. Shotblocking not quite what it will become, otherwise I would have out him here regardless. Will also mention Cliff Ray, who in a different way is similarly limited by his minutes.

Player of the Year

1. Julius Erving
2. Dave Cowens
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Bob Lanier
5. Rick Barry


I am more muted on Erving’s ABA years (although in turn I am more of an advocate than many are for his NBA years), but in a season where Kareem missed the postseason and the top player in the Finals was a late prime Dave Cowens, he secures top of the ballot without much trouble.

Cowens is a similar beneficiary of circumstance. Again, no Kareem. Lanier misses a fair chunk of time and has a worse season than he did in 1974 (when I voted him ahead of Cowens). McAdoo performs much worse against the Celtics than he did in 1974. And Havlicek scores less, so there is no longer any “1a/1b” splitting of credit. Altogether, Cowens was a weak MVP-level talent who was the best player in every series and won the title. When that happens, top two seems only fair.
Cort Reynolds wrote: The grueling style of play that the speedy 1970's Celtics employed, in concert with a short bench and going deep into the playoffs each year (and thus having shorter off-seasons), had started to take a toll on the club. Plus, team captain Havlicek and sixth man Don Nelson were each 36.

In 1976, a grizzled Boston squad fought its way to the Finals despite a foot injury to Havlicek. It was the 13th Celtic championship series appearance in 20 years, and the last before the Larry Bird era.



It was Cowens who took over and scored seven points in a clutch 9-4 Celtic spurt that clinched the crown.

Despite being plagued with five fouls, the redhead gambled and came up with the biggest play of the game. As Adams drove along the right side of the lane, Dave dangerously reached in and poked the ball away from the Rookie of the Year, lunging to tip the loose sphere away from Adams.

He then snatched up the loose ball and dribbled, or more accurately roared, 80 feet upcourt at top speed on a 2 on 1 fast break, a runaway red-headed center locomotive.

As he approached the basket, the Celtic center crossed over to the right side and gave a slight head fake to freeze defender Heard. Dave then laid in a twisting backhanded layup over his shoulder while being fouled. He cashed in the free throw to give Boston a 71-67 lead and a huge momentum swing.

After a Phoenix score, Dave sealed Adams outside the low block and took a perfectly timed top-side feed from Charlie Scott before converting a right-handed layin for a 73-69 advantage.

Cowens then forced a bad miss by Adams by hotly contesting his 15-footer. Adams later canned two foul shots to cut the lead back to two. Yet Havlicek swished a clutch 18-footer from the left wing to make it 75-71.

After a Westphal miss, Dave took an entry pass and spun quickly along the right baseline with his trademark move past Adams for a pretty layup. The pet move gave Boston a little breathing room with a 77-71 margin at the 3:29 mark.

White banked in a tough right side runner and added a free throw to stretch the lead to nine, and it was all over but the shouting as Boston ultimately held on to win, 87-80.

After the final buzzer sounded, a tired Cowens hugged retiring teammate Nelson as they strode off the court as champions for the last time. For Nellie, it was a satisfying fifth ring after being released by the Lakers over a decade earlier.

With White struggling and Hondo hurt, it was clearly the clutch late offensive burst from Cowens that capped banner number 13. His aggressive, all-out defense also led to a drought of over five minutes without a basket for the Suns down the stretch.

Even though Dave scored 21 points in the decisive win, paced the defense and led all players in rebounds during the series while averaging 20.5 ppg, teammate JoJo White (21.7 ppg) was named Finals MVP.

Yet in true Cowens fashion, Dave probably didn't care that much, as long as Boston won. He was simply about winning, an undersized center who won on great athleticism (strength, speed, quickness and jumping ability), high basketball intelligence, skill, and a burning desire as bright as his red mane.

"There is no player with greater desire than Dave Cowens," said CBS commentator and fiery Hall of Famer Rick Barry during the 1976 Finals.

A powerful leaper, Cowens frequently won jump balls against much taller centers like Jabbar and an older Chamberlain, and used great positioning to frustrate Kareem and occasionally block his shots as well by forcing him to turn back to his right shoulder, away from his patented hook.

Back then a center jump ball was held at the start of each quarter, and if that rule seems antiquated, consider that the original rules up through the 1930's required that there be a center jump after every basket. So each quarter jump ball could be a key extra possession gained.

As Havlicek, who played the first seven seasons of his career with the great Bill Russell and then his final eight with Cowens, the 1970-71 co-Rookie of the Year, once said - "no one ever did more for the Celtics than Dave Cowens."

In the post-game six locker room TV interviews with CBS, Havlicek reinforced this claim. "We were able to keep Dave on the floor (not foul out), and that made the difference," said Hondo.

Kareem was the league’s best player, but I will never advocate for a postseason-less Player of the Year, and a sub-.500 record is little to celebrate even outside of the unfortunate seeding exclusion. Still, would like to emphasise this: the Suns lost in game 6 of the NBA Finals (with a triple overtime loss in Game 5), but if the Lakers had managed to win one of their three games against the Suns in the final three weeks of the season, then the Suns would have been excluded instead. Perhaps we should expect a near peak Kareem to swing one of those three late season losses, but in them Kareem averaged 30.3/17.3/5.7/3.7/1.7 on 59.6% efficiency; on the vast majority of playoff supporting casts, that should have been enough.

Lanier takes fourth because I prefer him to McAdoo generally and I am substantially more impressed by his postseason this year specifically. Lanier was the best player in that Warriors series, and much like Kareem, I think he could have won a title if he had any real support around him (6-12 record, -5 net in his missed time this year).
AEnigma wrote:Many games have been scrubbed from Youtube over the years, but in what 1976 postseason games are available (either from searching or from the list that 70sFan provided in Peak #29 of this project), you can see Lanier getting legitimately triple-teamed and hear commentators saying, “Guard Lanier, and you stop [Detroit’s] offence.” All the same, the Pistons managed to give the #1 SRS Warriors a strong push, falling just short in overtime of Game 6.

Speaking of the Warriors, the response to Barry this year by a group of what I will call regular season voters has really exposed some biases. So we have a team led by Barry one year removed from his peak. That team is the #1 offence and #1 defence, and they are 4-SRS shy of any other team in total. However, now the argument is that they were just absolutely loaded with talent such that Barry did not need to be anything close to a top five player for them to achieve that.

Yet strangely, no one is inclined to give a DPoY vote to evidently elite all-time defender Cliff Ray and his 26.6 minutes a game (I was the sole person to vote for him last year too). No one caping in any real sense for the apparent secret team leader and one-time second-team all-NBA Phil Smith, apart from trying to use him to tear down Barry because of what some box composites say. Rookie Gus Williams plays 22.4 minutes a game, and something tells me he will never be assessed as some per minute MVP talent.

No, what it comes down to is, “I do not understand how a wing can score this inefficiently and be the clear best player on an elite team,” because playmaking efficiency is much tougher to quantify than scoring efficiency is, and because “Barry was a primarily offensive star” who did not receive all-defensive recognition so therefore we may as well dismiss his defence too. I do not know whether he was the fifth-best player in basketball this year. But I certainly do not need BPM, win shares, and PER to tell me when players are significantly contributing to title contenders. None of you would argue Kemba was better than Tatum in 2020, but hey, no on/off numbers in 1976, guess that means it will forever be a mystery who deserves credit.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#5 » by trelos6 » Mon Sep 30, 2024 9:47 am

OPOY

1.Calvin Murphy. The Rockets continue to be the leagues best offense, so I will continue to reward Calvin Murphy. 19.8 pp75 on +5.2 rTS%, with the team rOrtg of +2.8. I don’t think he was as good of a passer as Tiny, or Barry, but his team’s offense was undeniable.

2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar. 22.4 pp75 on +6.3 rTS%. Led the league in OPIPM, OWS.

3:Rick Barry. I’d love to give Phil Smith the HM, but it’s Rick Barry’s team. In 1976, he was just about the best distributor in the league. The Warriors were the 2nd best offense in the league, and basically the best playoff offense of all teams who played more than a couple of games.

HM: Bob McAdoo. 24.3 pp75 on +3.8 rTS%. He get’s the nod over a guy like Lanier due to better volume (24 v 20 pp75), despite slightly worse efficiency (3.8 v 7.5 rTS%). Both teams were top 5 in offense. I’m going McAdoo for style points.


DPOY

1.Elvin Hayes. The Bullets were the defensive team all season, and Hayes was the biggest reason.

2.Artis Gilmore. A year removed from peak Artis. He was still a monster defensively.

3. Dave Cowens. Celtics were a top 3 defense all season. Cowens was the defensive anchor.

HM: Julius Erving. I was considering Clifford Ray here, as the Warriors defense was elite all season, but Dr. J was still wreaking havoc on both ends in the final year of the ABA.


POY

1.Kareem Abdul Jabbar. As we approach peak Kareem, we have the monstrosity of 75-76. Lakers missed the playoffs in what can only be described as an NBA joke, due to divisional seeding. Kareem put up +4.17 OPIPM, and +3.49 DPIPM, for an overall +7.66 PIPM. Far and away the leader in this stat. His wins added was also 22.5, a fair bit more than anyone else in the league. Looking at his scoring numbers, he was 22.4 pp75 on +6.3 rTS%. His team was midpack in offense, but above league average, and defensively they were 13th (of 18). However, this team was dead last defensively the year prior, with Zelmo and Elmore Smith anchoring the D, so Kareem did some heavy lifting on that end.

2. Julius Erving. Narrowly missing out on OPOY consideration, Erving was a 2 way beast, and elevated his game during the playoffs.

3. Artis Gilmore. 21 pp75 on good but not great efficiency, plus strong defensive play.

4. Dave Cowens. Strong 2 way impact, leading the Celtics to a title.

5. Rick Barry. His scoring efficiency returned to usual levels, but his playmaking was best in league, and his defense was quite good. Led the best team in the league, and they were only defeated in a tough 7 game series to the eventual runners up (which they outscored by 4.2 ppg).

HM: Bob McAdoo. Elite scoring big man, who was also decent at protecting the rim.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#6 » by penbeast0 » Mon Sep 30, 2024 11:29 am

I don't think elevating a defense from last to 13th/18 is outside the standard deviation for a normal team. Kareem is the best player in the world without a doubt, at least in my mind, but I don't think that's enough to be considered a great carry job for a defensive anchor.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#7 » by Owly » Mon Sep 30, 2024 3:50 pm

On Barry getting around the top of the ballot offense votes and high votes in general...

He doesn't lead his team in PER, OWS/48 (or OWS), OBPM (or eyeballing it OVORP ... I'd assume for this purpose that replacement level of -2 BPM is split evenly as -1 OBPM and -1 DBPM). I believe this would all be true for the playoffs too. In all instances he is behind Phil Smith. His 2nd place RS OBPM (1.3) is marginally closer to 7th (Ray 0.4) than 1st (Smith 2.3).

In terms of rate of scoring he doesn't lead the team (he's 3rd, though Robert "Bubbles" Hawkins is included in that from a tiny sample, so 2nd among rotation players) and substantially closer to fifth (Gus Williams) than second (or first among rotation players, Phil Smith). For assists per 100 he's marginally behind Bradley and though somewhat clearly second, part of what looks a playmaking (or at least assisting) by committee approach.

Fwiw, and without knowing I don't want to punish guys for this but if it were true it would nuke his value ... he was alleged to have not given his best effort for petulant, interpersonal reasons in a playoff game.

His playoffs is better on the boxside, but per the above, still no better than second, all the way across the board, on the team. I am only looking at the Reference numbers here, maybe other stuff paints a very different picture ...

Barry has name recognition and maybe priors from that ... I'm struggling to see what's compelling in this season.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#8 » by OhayoKD » Tue Oct 1, 2024 3:05 am

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar

Denied a shot at competing for #1 last year mostly by terrible supporting cast (team was disastrously terrible without him), having played all the games, I will take the best player in the game 1st. After seeing a 30-win(22 by SRS) signal in the midst of a injury and team-chemistry hampered-down year, Kareem elevates the remnants of a 30-win team to 40(5-point srs improvement) despite being traded for 2 starters/3 contributors including someone who played his position and surrounded by a roster bereft of quality covering Kareem's biggest weakness; ball-handling. It's still a down year(2nd or 3rd worst of his prime?) but the competition is weak and I don't really see a solid case for 82 games and a postseason from anyone else being worth as much as it would be from Kareem.

2. Dave Cowens

With the teammate some alleged as better falling off both in points and minutes, Cowens wins again, averaging 5 more mpg than hondo in the regular season and 11 more in the playoffs as the Celtics go 12-6 against the 2nd, 5th, and 6th best teams(by regular season SRS) in the league. He does so dwarfing everyone else on the team in rebounds and blocks (hinting he was a clear-cut defensive anchor) and leading the team in scoring volume and all starters in efficiency.

Looks like a decent case for #1 honestly.

3. Julius Erving

Reasonable case as the most valuable player relative to league this year. If I bought they were comparable leagues, I might even have placed him #1. Alas,

Spoiler:
AEnigma wrote:They do not, they went into a better league and were less serious title contenders despite general internal improvement, and your only argument to the contrary is a blind insistence that was all due to James Silas not being healthy — as if we are expected to ignore how the Spurs still managed to seriously compete for an ABA title in 1976 without him.

I reiterate: 80% of the ABA could not cut it in the NBA, and all but three players on the final ABA title-winner could not cut it in the NBA. Those that were good enough to make it only ever looked better in the NBA if they were younger than 26, which is the entire reason you are leaning on the Spurs at all. It was a weak league that happened to have some good players at the top, and those good players disproportionately exploited their relative talent advantage.

Djoker wrote:Too many ABA guys in their primes fell off the cliff after the merger. Even the biggest stars like Erving and Gilmore. The only guys that really improved after the merger were guys that were very young in the ABA like Gervin, Thompson, Moses etc. Of course there are exceptions but ABA guys dropping off a lot after the merger is the trend here.


AEnigma wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:Because those defending champions were handled comfortably in the Finals. Because you are not adding a “superstar guard” in 1979, you are just improving the guard already playing for you. Because your vision of that “superstar guard” is “second-in-MVP” three years earlier, while ignoring he was in a three-way tie for second with one vote across a league of seven teams (by comparison, Dave Bing has multiple years with a higher first place vote share than that, against more and better competition). And finally, because that same exact core was present in 1980, and in fact got an even better version of Silas than what they had in 1979, but nevertheless they dropped back down to a .500 record and 0 SRS.


I do not.

It's also not lost on me that in 77, a year removed from allegedly being the best player in the world, the doctor goes from an MVP three-peat to a 5th place finish in the NBA as he averages 8 less points on worse efficiency. 2 years removed, 10th. 3 years removed; he is not even on the ballot. To his credit NBA Erving tends to turn it up in the playoffs and can credibly be argued as tthe 3rd best player in 77. Additionally Julius does eventually win an NBA MVP along with 2 additional top 3 finishes. All considered, despite my reservations regarding the ABA, I'll give Erving the benefit of the doubt along with a top 3 finish.

4. Bob Mcadoo

He was MVP the prior year and finished 2nd in this one as an arguable two-way anchor for a top 5 team. His efficiency then went up in a competitive 6-game series facing the eventual champion. Surprised he's being left off.

5. Rick Barry

This is a wierd one. Scoring volume plummets. Effeciency drops. Assists do not go up. Team gets better (in the regular season). That hints at an ensemble. Along with postseason disappointment (a tight loss to the team that held up 2nd best against Boston) there's a bit of an openin. But in that loss Barry resembles his finals-sweeping self averaging 27 on much better efficiency than his regular-season iteration. That's enough for me to give some grace to last thread's POY and include him on my 76 ballot
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#9 » by Djoker » Tue Oct 1, 2024 3:37 am

Denver was a really good defensive team. They came into the NBA after the merger the following year and were the #1 defense and #2 SRS overall. That makes me see Erving's 1976 Finals performance in very strong light. Yes the ABA was weaker but his competition for that title was very good. And while he did have a poor RS post-merger in 1977 he did bring it up a notch in the PS that he'll probably be my #3 after Kareem/Walton. With 1976 being a weaker year in terms of NBA frontrunners, I don't have a problem thinking the ABA is significantly weaker and still giving Erving the #1 nod. He swept all the major accolades, won the title and averaged 37.7/14.2/5.3 on 66.1 %TS (+10.5 rTS) in the Finals against a really good Denver team.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#10 » by penbeast0 » Tue Oct 1, 2024 3:47 am

At the top of the RS NBA are last year's champions the Warriors whose young players (Phil Smith, Jamaal Wilkes, Gus Williams) took a step up though Rick Barry took a step back. Barry is still the straw that stirs the drink but shoots relatively poorly, doesn't get to the line as well, and was his normal truthful/rude/offensive (depending on how you call it) self in the locker room from stories I have read. He didn't step up in the playoffs either; Phil Smith might be their best statistical player though Barry had the ball in his hands more. Boston was the second best team in the RS and the NBA champions. Like GS they were a deep, balanced team with multiple scorers but their defensive leader and main rebounder was Cowens who is a POY candidate.

A step back came Cleveland (?!) and Washington. Cleveland had no stars, Bill Fitch did an amazing job of coaching. Washington was led by (surprise) Elvin Hayes and Wes Unseld who led the league's 2nd best defense. Hayes and Chenier scored, Unseld by this point was one of the best passing bigs in the league and set the dirtiest picks I've ever seen. Hayes is a possible candidate but Wes leads Elvin in several advanced stats and certainly had a bigger non-box score impact.

Another step down are Philly, Buffalo, Seattle, and Phoenix. The Sixers spent big money on ABA star George McGinnis though he shot poorly and didn't show great maturity. Buffalo had Bob McAdoo who shot extremely well and didn't show great maturity. Seattle's star was one dimensional shooter Downtown Freddie Brown; Phoenix picked up Paul Westphal from Boston and gave him a shot at stardom.

The rest of the league was nothing special outside of Kareem who was extremely unhappy in Milwaukee and complained his way to Los Angeles for 4 young prospects who all looked promising (they didn't all work out). LA improved but was thin; Milwaukee had some hope for the future. Bob Lanier had another good box score year and led another bad defense in Detroit; John "Cementhead" Drew was another example of great talent and great immaturity.

In the ABA, it was Erving's year. Great play combined with a championship. David Thompson came into the league with great fanfare, replacing Mack Calvin in Denver who actually won 5 games less despite adding Thompson and Dan Issel to the offense but still led the league behind Larry Brown's switching, turnover producing defense and it's defensive star Bobby Jones (another season approaching 2 blocks, 2 steals, leading the league in efg, and playing 34 minutes a game, a career high, to finish 2nd in ABA MVP voting). Third in the league was San Antonio led by James Silas's scoring and playmaking, George Gervin's scoring, and Billy Paultz' rebounding and defense.

1. Julius Erving
2. Dave Cowens
3. Kareem
4. Bobby Jones
5. Bob McAdoo

HM Paul Westphal, Wes Unseld
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#11 » by AEnigma » Tue Oct 1, 2024 4:44 am

Djoker wrote:Denver was a really good defensive team. They came into the NBA after the merger the following year and were the #1 defense and #2 SRS overall. That makes me see Erving's 1976 Finals performance in very strong light.

As stated a couple of threads ago, they added Paul Silas and a lot of defensive depth when joining the NBA. When they lost that depth the following year, their defence plummeted.

A frontcourt of Thompson, Jones, and Issel is not any stout opposition for Erving. He arguably faced a stouter test from the Spurs.

I reward him for the performance too, but crediting him as if he played the 1977 Nuggets is an unjustified inflation.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#12 » by Dutchball97 » Tue Oct 1, 2024 3:30 pm

Player of the Year
1. Julius Erving - Dr J was the best player in the ABA in the regular season and completely lapped the field in the post-season. Very strong 2-way impact with nobody else really being close this time around.

2. Artis Gilmore - The second player on my ballet is another ABA guy. He was the 2nd best player in the league in the regular season and at least top 3 in the play-offs. I think Artis should deserve more credit for taking the Nuggets to a game 7 when the 5 best players in that series were him and 4 Nuggets. I'm not seeing anyone in the NBA who had as complete of a season as Gilmore. The only real contender there is Cowens with a top 3 regular season and being the best player on the NBA champs. Gilmore didn't have a particularly strong team, while the Celtics were fairly stacked. Especially White and Silas stepped up big time in the play-offs, so while Cowens was the best player it wasn't nearly as clear as it was for Gilmore, let alone Erving.

3. Dave Cowens - Well, it'd be surprising if Cowens didn't show up now after what I've just said. I think he quite clearly had the best season in a pretty lackluster field with Kareem missing the play-offs, the old guard having been pretty much completely phased out and most of the others not having good but not great seasons. Cowens' defense was an important factor in leading the Celtics to the title, while also providing plenty of impact with his scoring and playmaking.

4. Bob McAdoo - Runner-up in MVP voting for good reason and while I wouldn't qualify his post-season as all that impressive, even with a slight dip in performance I'm still taking him over the rest of the field with his strong scoring and rebounding. He even upped his playmaking from non-existant to pretty good for a big.

5. George Gervin - James Silas was the best player for the Spurs in the regular season, making the All-ABA 1st team and being the runner-up in MVP voting. Then why not vote for him? Well, because he hurt his ankle in the first game of the play-offs and didn't play the rest of the way. With Silas out, it was Gervin who stepped up massively. I think you could argue either way between Gervin and Gilmore for the 2nd best post-season performance in the ABA this season. While Gervin's regular season was too far behind to catch up to top 3 NBA regular seasons and solid post-seasons by Cowens and McAdoo, I do think it's enough to pass the rest of the field. Barry, Unseld and Bobby Jones just miss the cut.

Offensive Player of the Year
1. Julius Erving
2. Bob McAdoo
3. Rick Barry


Feels like a tough year for OPOY. Both the top offenses in the NBA and ABA miss the post-season and there seems to be relative parity on the offensive end as well so not a lot of standout, slam dunk picks. I went with Erving mainly due to his insane play-offs but with an efficient 29 points and 5 assists in the regular season it wasn't like he wasn't already making a case for himself there. McAdoo consistently scores a lot and with his playmaking taking a jump as well I'm comfortable having him here. I considered a bunch of others for the last spot including Billy Knight, David Thompson, Kareem and Lanier but Barry has the Warriors consistently near the top offensively. Stepping up in both scoring and playmaking in the post-season seals the deal for me.

Defensive Player of the Year
1. Dave Cowens
2. Wes Unseld
3. Artis Gilmore


I'm most convinced by the Bullets defense this season but once again Unseld and Hayes have to split the credit. This season I'm quite a bit higher on Unseld so he gets the spot. Cowens has the Celtics right on the tail of the Bullets in both the regular season and post-season as more of a clear defensive anchor. The last place was between Gilmore, Erving and Hayes. With the ABA play-offs being pretty closely matched across the board on both sides of the ball the Colonels and Nets don't stand out as much as the Celtics and Bullets but with Unseld already on the ballot, I wouldn't also put Hayes over Gilmore or Erving. In the end I went with Gilmore for his consistency without much help from his teammates.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#13 » by Owly » Tue Oct 1, 2024 3:48 pm

penbeast0 wrote:Barry is still the straw that stirs the drink ... Phil Smith might be their best statistical player though Barry had the ball in his hands more.

Not sure why even for non-Barry voters we need to pander to him.

He may have the ball more but ...
1) Most composites account for and reward that ... yet Barry across the board lags behind Smith.
2) he's missing enough that he's not scoring more but 1.8 fewer points per 100 possessions (1.6 fewer per 36 minutes) despite a marginally higher true shot attempts rate. So unless the marginal extra minutes matter that much he's not not just shooting worse but scoring less. So it comes down to 7.0 assists per 100 to 5.7 (or 5.7 per 36 minutes to 4.7).

I don't think there's an indication that he's in a distinct category where "he's the straw" and to the extent that he is I'm not sure there's evidence that he's adding that much value or doing the job better than Smith was this season.


Just one measure but it seems weird to me that a player with a 1.3 OBPM is, thus far, unanimously on all (the admittedly limited number of) OPOY (3 man) ballots and (without a great read on his D, with a broadly offense-centric reputation) making all but one POY ballots, and even there getting credit I don't think he deserves.

He's on a good team. He's a star "name". Perhaps' he's got "ring"/ "the guy" on a champ halo. Box score doesn't cover everything. There are different ways to combine box inputs. Giving those caveats. I really don't see the appeal here beyond the first three sentences in this paragraph (and if that's it ...).
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#14 » by Djoker » Tue Oct 1, 2024 5:22 pm

AEnigma wrote:
Djoker wrote:Denver was a really good defensive team. They came into the NBA after the merger the following year and were the #1 defense and #2 SRS overall. That makes me see Erving's 1976 Finals performance in very strong light.

As stated a couple of threads ago, they added Paul Silas and a lot of defensive depth when joining the NBA. When they lost that depth the following year, their defence plummeted.

A frontcourt of Thompson, Jones, and Issel is not any stout opposition for Erving. He arguably faced a stouter test from the Spurs.

I reward him for the performance too, but crediting him as if he played the 1977 Nuggets is an unjustified inflation.


Bobby Jones is one of the all time great defenders. Silas did join but he was already past his best and played only 24 mpg. I see your point though.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#15 » by Dr Positivity » Tue Oct 1, 2024 6:05 pm

I'm going to take the side that this Barry season is one of the most overrated. If not for the team record, it'd be seen as the start of his post prime as he puts up the same stats as 77. And, it's not even like they won the title either and take an L to one of the worst finalists ever, some teams can overperform in regular season compared to previous versions like Spurs in 16 and 17 being so good. The Warriors look like a great ensemble with Phil Smith breaking out, Wilkes improving, adding young Gus Wiliams, etc. and based on this two year run I think Attles has to be given his flowers as a coach.

1. Julius Erving - He had AMAZING playoffs while Kareem didn't have a chance for one.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Clearly the best NBA player, I guess his team was just worse than even the pre Magic ones he would win 50 Games with in following seasons.

3. Artis Gilmore - Another terrific ABA season and no shame losing to stacked Nuggets roster.

4. Dave Cowens - This is actually probably more like the 4th/5th best Cowens/Havlicek team but you still have to beat what's in front of you, with Havlicek only averaging 13ppg in the playoffs Cowens had to be clear best player.

5. Bob McAdoo - His stats are slightly down for his best season, but he is still a dominant offensive force, Lanier misses games and the other ABA guys have help on their teams.

Offensive player of the year

1. Bob McAdoo
2. Julius Erving
3. Tiny Archibald

Defensive player of the year

1. Dave Cowens
2. Bobby Jones
3. Artis Gilmore

I was surprised to see John Drew 4th in Win Shares this season. The Hawks are responsible for some genuinely underrated players this era such as Joe Caldwell a few threads ago being a 20ppg with all-D, or Bill Bridges is another player I didn't know that much about until recently who seems like an impact guy.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#16 » by Cavsfansince84 » Tue Oct 1, 2024 9:43 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:Player of the Year
1. Julius Erving -

2. Artis Gilmore -

3. Dave Cowens -

4. Bob McAdoo -

5. George Gervin -


Bit curious if you left Kareem off your ballot on purpose or by accident.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#17 » by Owly » Tue Oct 1, 2024 10:02 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:Player of the Year
1. Julius Erving -

2. Artis Gilmore -

3. Dave Cowens -

4. Bob McAdoo -

5. George Gervin -


Bit curious if you left Kareem off your ballot on purpose or by accident.

I'd strongly disagree by my own criteria but given the post mentions Jabbar I doubt it was an accident, that he was forgotten ...

Dutchball97 wrote:I think he quite clearly had the best season in a pretty lackluster field with Kareem missing the play-offs

I guess it could be read as a tease and then forgotten, but assume it's acknowledging Kareem's status (i.e. as the best player of the era) and explaining why he isn't playing what might be expected to be his part in an imagined stronger field.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#18 » by capfan33 » Wed Oct 2, 2024 2:11 am

POY

1. Kareem- After thinking about it more, I'm switching my vote to Kareem #1. Looking at the argument surrounding the strength of the ABA tipped me over more then anything. Like the previous year, all the best candidates have some major flaws with their candidacy, but unlike the previous year Kareem is healthy and also only missed the playoffs due to a dumb rule that never should've existed. And as the clear cut best player (I think this is probably his 3rd best year in a vacuum, maybe even 2nd), I have to go with him.

2. Dr. J- Incredible run and especially finals, even with some adjusting for the ABA.

I have little doubt he would've popped off like he did in subsequent years without Wilt or Thurmond to bother him, and in a year like this maybe would've even won, but given the criteria of the project I have a hard time putting him first despite easily being the best player.

3. David Cowens- Definitely not his best year, but being the best player on the champion combined with the confidence I have in his general skillset and ability makes this a pretty easy placement.

4. Bob McAdoo- Another strong offensive year while being a decent defender.

5. Rick Barry- Despite his not great scoring, he's probably the best passer of the 70s as well as the best volume outside shooter, and in an era bereft of perimeter talent, that offense plays. Specifically, there were quite a few great defensive big man throughout the 70s, but players with Barry's general profile were vastly rarer and therefore more valuable IMO even in a more defensively advantaged environment.


OPOY

1. Julius Erving

2. Kareem

3. Rick Barry.

DPOY

1. Elvin Hayes

2. Artis Gilmore

3. Dave Cowens
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#19 » by penbeast0 » Wed Oct 2, 2024 2:58 am

Not even close to best passer of the 70s. A very good passer but a lot of PGs and the likes of Walton and Unseld, plus possibly Havlicek and Cunningham among forwards were better though his scoring gives him a creative edge over Unseld if you are looking beyond pure passing.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE 

Post#20 » by OhayoKD » Wed Oct 2, 2024 4:07 am

Owly wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:Barry is still the straw that stirs the drink ... Phil Smith might be their best statistical player though Barry had the ball in his hands more.

Not sure why even for non-Barry voters we need to pander to him.

He may have the ball more but ...
1) Most composites account for and reward that ... yet Barry across the board lags behind Smith.

No composite for this time period takes that into account. Nothing like touches, progressive passes or dribbles, time-of-possession, extra defenders drawn are inputs skewing these metrics against players who handle the ball more and in the favor of those who handle the ball less.

This is why the signals of helios tend to outpace their box-composites
its my last message in this thread, but I just admit, that all the people, casual and analytical minds, more or less have consencus who has the weight of a rubberized duck. And its not JaivLLLL

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