KAT To The Knicks Part 2

[mpharris36]

I can understand you not liking the trade from a financial flexibility and player durability risk standpoint. But you gotta admit it’s a stretch to state KAT’s a player worth only $30 per year in salary, in today’s NBA salary landscape. Especially after the new league media rights deal and new CBA.

We’ll now routinely see role players making well north of $30 m’s.

KP just got 2/60. Randle is making $29 mil. Jrue (I got him ranked 43rd and KAT ranked 39th) is making 33.5 mil a year. Draymond (I got him over KAT) is making $25 mil a year. Bane (I have him over KAT) is making 39.5 mil a year. Derrick White is making 29.5 mil a year. AG is up and can get up to 150/4.

The only players outside the top 30 making over 40 mil a year are Sabonis (he's at least not an injury risk - iirc he got OG's contract 5/212), Pascal (4/189 which was an absurd overpay), Gobert ($40 mil per), and Jamal Murray (4/208 but at least he already got them a ring).

So instead of $30 which is a bargain deal let's say $40. It's still well short of $56.

Labeling him a $40-45m player is reasonable. I can get behind that. But the scale will definitely be sliding up in a major way going forward. And the salary cap will be adjusting accordingly. The league will be increasing it incrementally rather than in one dramatic increase. But long term I don’t think the financial outlook is as bleak as it seems today. When we take into account where the salary and cap trends are heading with the increases.

It happens all the time with QBs as well. Guys just continue to reset the market and long term deals look really high but then the next set of players get paid and the contract structures will reset.

[E-Balla]

It is and it isn't. It is in the sense he's obviously paid a ton. But it isn't in the sense he's locked up. Randle isn't and the new CBA is unforgiving to in the apron that have upcoming FA unless you are willing to pay them like a cornerstone piece. Randle is turning 30 this year. He is going to opt out and ask for a 4 year contract next year at a pretty high price (his production would warrant that). Randle new contract will start at 31...KAT contract finishes potentially when he's 31.

KAT is only a calendar year younger than Randle and his extension kicks in now. That's only a 2 year gap. And Randle is looking for that big pay day but he's not getting much better than Pascal's 4/189. Maybe 200/4 but honestly his reputation (due to the lolknicks effect) is low. I don't think he makes that.

And we dont' have to move Mitch...moving mitch would more signal they just don't buy he will ever be a healthy contributor rather then them needing to move him for money purposes right now.

Without moving Mitch there's no way we fill out the roster under the second apron. Unless we go with 12 players which I've never seen before he's getting moved.

Randle has his own issues and moving him at a later date for production is certainly not as easier as you seem to make it...Randle is a very challenging fitting player (talent is there but there are concerns in other areas). It wouldn't even surprise me if he isn't in Minny for terrible long.

I think Minny lets him go. This move wasn't "we want Randle" it was "please take this terrible contract off our hands so we can resign NAW and Naz".

[3toheadmelo]

Our offense will be good, but you can’t survive KAT at C. We have years and years of data that show it doesn’t work. That’s why the Timberwolves paid a high premium for Gobert.

I'm not sure that is definitively true.

Per bball-ref he played 100% of his minutes at C in 2017-18 where they made the playoffs and led the West for a chunk of the season. Same in 2021-22 where they also made the playoffs.

Of course Minnesota's defense and record would be better by trading picks for Gobert. He's one of the best rim protectors in NBA history.

Lack of talent and poor management explained Minnesota's mediocrity to a large degree. Moreso than which position KAT played imo.

Looks like ChaHell and I are on the same side.

Another bad sign!! Jk lol

Do you still think Mikal should be our second option tho

[dukeknicksirish]

Anybody seen Mitch at media day … 0_o

[E-Balla]

The most key acquisition this off season....that doctor from Dallas with all the brittle players the Knicks have. Better be a witch doctor that can whip up some serious voodoo because it's going to be a tough job keeping all these guys healthy come playoff time.

Where's the **** the Suns used to have that fixed Grant Hill and Shaq?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I'm not sure that is definitively true.

Per bball-ref he played 100% of his minutes at C in 2017-18 where they made the playoffs and led the West for a chunk of the season. Same in 2021-22 where they also made the playoffs.

Of course Minnesota's defense and record would be better by trading picks for Gobert. He's one of the best rim protectors in NBA history.

Lack of talent and poor management explained Minnesota's mediocrity to a large degree. Moreso than which position KAT played imo.

Looks like ChaHell and I are on the same side.

Another bad sign!! Jk lol

Do you still think Mikal should be our second option tho

The second option will be KAT or Mikal, but this puts the ball in Mikals hands more which was something that needed to happen. It's the same thing, he needs to be a better scorer regardless of whether we had KAT or not, the only way for this team to hit it's real potential is for him to be the guy he was when he first landed in New Jersey.

KAT is a low touches player, he doesn't need the ball much to get his 20, so that just automatically gives Mikal and even OG more reps.

[E-Balla]

KP just got 2/60. Randle is making $29 mil. Jrue (I got him ranked 43rd and KAT ranked 39th) is making 33.5 mil a year. Draymond (I got him over KAT) is making $25 mil a year. Bane (I have him over KAT) is making 39.5 mil a year. Derrick White is making 29.5 mil a year. AG is up and can get up to 150/4.

The only players outside the top 30 making over 40 mil a year are Sabonis (he's at least not an injury risk - iirc he got OG's contract 5/212), Pascal (4/189 which was an absurd overpay), Gobert ($40 mil per), and Jamal Murray (4/208 but at least he already got them a ring).

So instead of $30 which is a bargain deal let's say $40. It's still well short of $56.

Labeling him a $40-45m player is reasonable. I can get behind that. But the scale will definitely be sliding up in a major way going forward. And the salary cap will be adjusting accordingly. The league will be increasing it incrementally rather than in one dramatic increase. But long term I don’t think the financial outlook is as bleak as it seems today. When we take into account where the salary and cap trends are heading with the increases.

It happens all the time with QBs as well. Guys just continue to reset the market and long term deals look really high but then the next set of players get paid and the contract structures will reset.

True. And all them overpaid ass QBs floundering right now because we've hit the point of overvaluing QBs to where teams can't build properly around them. Someone's going to be left holding the **** contracts, let's hope it ain't us.

[Wildcat]

I still can't say I like this trade. But then again I didn't like the OG trade. I'm taking a wait and see approach but gotta trust Leon.

I am concerned about losing some toughness on the team. Randle and DVo were two guys the other team just wouldn't mess with. You need goons. Not sure who will step up to be one.

If you didn't like the OG trade, that means you have **** taste.

I jest, I jest, of course. It took me 2 games to be happy about the OG trade. I'm suspecting I'll come around with this trade sooner than later. Losing fan favorites is never an easy pill to swallow. I'm also not keen on shifting our balanced offense to a perimeter focused one. I just really wanted to see Julius and JB cook together. Having 2 players on this team that commands double teaming would have made the other guy, and the other role players so much better. Aftermath of this trade leaves the bench pretty awful, which up to a week ago was one of the Knicks strong points. I'm not happy the Knicks had to sacrifice depth for KAT. And I fear that rebounding is going to be a problem.

End of the day, I blame Mitch and I-Shatter for all this.

[JayTWill]

*Long post alert*

Spoiler:

I'm trying to remain optimistic about this trade. I was personally ready to move on from Randle and Mitch as I didn't want to continue to depend on them to step up or be available in the playoffs and I felt their value would decline over time. Moving on from either one of them would not have been a big deal for me but going all in on KAT was not the move I wanted to make. He is just as unpredictable as Mitch and Randle in my mind. Losing DDV is upsetting and unexpected but I did see a bit of an overlap between DDV and Deuce. One of them was going to be squeezed for playing time.

I understand the organization was dealt a tough hand this off-season. iHart walked. Mitch will have a long recovery. Randle's contract situation was still up in the air. The new CBA is very restrictive but it reminds me of last January in some ways. They got punched in the face with injuries last season and instead of taking a step back and accepting that the season was lost they made the Detroit trade to continue to try to compete.

Mitch, Randle and OG were out but people still held onto the hope of their return and competing for a championship and ignored OG and Mitch being extremely injury prone and Randle's entire game being based around him ramming his shoulder into opposing player's chests. Instead of taking a step back they added to questionable fits in Bogey and Burks. I may have understood the moves if I had not just seen Thibs fail with similar level players in Walker and Fournier before but we convinced ourselves it would be different this time.

In the end all 3 of Mitch, Randle and OG were re-injured and the Detroit additions failed. The Knicks scratched and clawed their way to the 2nd seed but fell short in the 2nd round. They rushed Mitch back just for him to be out until possibly 2025 now killing what little value he may have had left. They held off on Randle's surgery which I can understand in some ways but seemed like it would have a low probability of success with his style of play. 100% healthy Mitch and Randle probably have more trade value than they do rehabbing.

Instead of flipping Fournier's expiring contract and possibly picking up an asset from a team looking to clear and extra year of salary they added value to his contract for two ageing players that did not fit with the team. Instead of pausing and taking a step back this for a moment this year we are choosing to ignore how Thibs and KAT were not a good match before. We are pretending that they are different people at their cores now when they still have the same question marks surrounding them throughout their careers.

I was just watching parts of the Atlanta series since people were saying it was not Randle's fault. I saw Reggie Bullock getting cooked on an island by Trae Young with Thibs refusing to trap the same way OG was getting cooked on an island by Maxey with Thibs refusing to trap again. Thibs is who he is and KAT is who he is until they show me something different. KAT struggled with Thibs defensively before and I don't think an injury prone Mitch solves that problem.

Offensively we are fantasizing about all the spacing and how much better things will look as if Thibs is some incredible offensive mind. As if the offense has not always been somebody pounding the air out of the ball with everyone else just standing around. Brunson will have a ton of space to do his thing but a 6'1-6'2 guard is not some unstoppable force no matter how much we talk crap about anyone who disagrees.

Steph had a ton of success in the league as a small guard but their championship offense led by him is the complete opposite of Thibs' offense. Maybe this is the year Thibs finally unlocks his massive playbook he has created from all the hours studying film but he has not done it up until this point no matter who he had on the roster. Maybe the new personnel changes things but I expect to see different players forced to iso no matter if they are qualified to do it no matter what. I expect to see Brunson to have a ton of success doing it while others may struggle. Thibs will have to be more creative on both ends of the court for this to succeed.

They have now built a roster with questionable depth and multiple injury prone players. Guys like Payne, Precious and (Morris) were all out of the rotation at the start of the postseason which is a pretty clear indicator that their coaches did not believe they could contribute to winning at that time. Of their top 7 players 3 of them are huge injury risks. It's an incredibly fragile team with weak depth imo.

The team was in a tough spot but they did not have to make this move. They could have accepted some losses to start the season. That's basically what happened with the roster last year with the hole at big wing/back up 4. It's not like having a higher seed has ever led Thibs anywhere in the end anyway. They could have waited for more options to become available to fill the center hole between Dec. 15th and the trade deadline. I don't think KAT had a huge market. This deal could have been available later if they truly wanted to make it happen. They could have attempted to make a smaller move.

I will continue to remain hopeful as a fan and I am truly excited to see how the additions fit with the team but I can't hide my concern that the team gave up all of its assets for a team that may not work out together whether it is because of poor health or poor fit. Maybe Mitch comes back healthy and is a perfect fit next to KAT. Maybe they flip Mitch or someone else for the perfect fit. Maybe Kolek steps up and adds a new dynamic to the team's offense. Maybe Mikal reaches a new level. Maybe if things don't work out they can still find a way to pivot. I don't know.

Credit to the front office for not just sitting on their hands and being willing to make adjustments but this was too big of a gamble for me. The team seemed like it was being very responsible for the most part with the contracts they were handing out and the chemistry they were building but now I too am wondering if Leon Rose's connections won over someone like Brock Aller's calculations.

[Capn'O]

Let's just not **** around and lose our last semblances of rim protection/drop coverage and I'm fine to wait and see optimistically.

[TerrenceClarke]

E - Balla must have been on fire in here cause I keep seeing people coming at him sideways.

Thats why I did not do much reading here cause I be having time for cats that want to be butt hurt cause you have a different view than than the majority. You dont like the KAT trade? cats want to be hurt behind it.

[Chanel Bomber]

Our offense will be good, but you can’t survive KAT at C. We have years and years of data that show it doesn’t work. That’s why the Timberwolves paid a high premium for Gobert.

I'm not sure that is definitively true.

Per bball-ref he played 100% of his minutes at C in 2017-18 where they made the playoffs and led the West for a chunk of the season. Same in 2021-22 where they also made the playoffs.

Of course Minnesota's defense and record would be better by trading picks for Gobert. He's one of the best rim protectors in NBA history.

Lack of talent and poor management explained Minnesota's mediocrity to a large degree. Moreso than which position KAT played imo.

Looks like ChaHell and I are on the same side.

Life is inconvenient like that sometimes.

[mpharris36]

It is and it isn't. It is in the sense he's obviously paid a ton. But it isn't in the sense he's locked up. Randle isn't and the new CBA is unforgiving to in the apron that have upcoming FA unless you are willing to pay them like a cornerstone piece. Randle is turning 30 this year. He is going to opt out and ask for a 4 year contract next year at a pretty high price (his production would warrant that). Randle new contract will start at 31...KAT contract finishes potentially when he's 31.

KAT is only a calendar year younger than Randle and his extension kicks in now. That's only a 2 year gap. And Randle is looking for that big pay day but he's not getting much better than Pascal's 4/189. Maybe 200/4 but honestly his reputation (due to the lolknicks effect) is low. I don't think he makes that.

And we dont' have to move Mitch...moving mitch would more signal they just don't buy he will ever be a healthy contributor rather then them needing to move him for money purposes right now.

Without moving Mitch there's no way we fill out the roster under the second apron. Unless we go with 12 players which I've never seen before he's getting moved.

Randle has his own issues and moving him at a later date for production is certainly not as easier as you seem to make it...Randle is a very challenging fitting player (talent is there but there are concerns in other areas). It wouldn't even surprise me if he isn't in Minny for terrible long.

I think Minny lets him go. This move wasn't "we want Randle" it was "please take this terrible contract off our hands so we can resign NAW and Naz".

I still contend after Randle eventually signs his new deal KAT will be a more attractive piece in a future trade especially as the cap continues to rise. He is just a more seamless fit with the modern NBA. He has his quirks but I think most FO don't see KAT as a lose cannon as much as Randle. So I just feel in the future his contract will be more easier to move especially if he's player well here rather than Randles new extension contract.

Minny made there bed with the Gobert trade...if they tried to re-trade him there is zero chance they would re-coup even close to the draft equity they lost. So that made KAT's contract the odd man out now they need to pay NAW and Naz.

I think the position they were in with Ant Edwards contract kicking in along with McDaniels and still having Gobert...you got to make choices unless you are going to pay obscene tax which Minny clearly wasn't willing to do.

[TerrenceClarke]

Let's just not **** around and lose our last semblances of rim protection/drop coverage and I'm fine to wait and see optimistically.

The Question is...... what will the Clippers do.....

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I'm not sure that is definitively true.

Per bball-ref he played 100% of his minutes at C in 2017-18 where they made the playoffs and led the West for a chunk of the season. Same in 2021-22 where they also made the playoffs.

Of course Minnesota's defense and record would be better by trading picks for Gobert. He's one of the best rim protectors in NBA history.

Lack of talent and poor management explained Minnesota's mediocrity to a large degree. Moreso than which position KAT played imo.

Looks like ChaHell and I are on the same side.

Life is inconvenient like that sometimes.

[mpharris36]

Labeling him a $40-45m player is reasonable. I can get behind that. But the scale will definitely be sliding up in a major way going forward. And the salary cap will be adjusting accordingly. The league will be increasing it incrementally rather than in one dramatic increase. But long term I don’t think the financial outlook is as bleak as it seems today. When we take into account where the salary and cap trends are heading with the increases.

It happens all the time with QBs as well. Guys just continue to reset the market and long term deals look really high but then the next set of players get paid and the contract structures will reset.

True. And all them overpaid ass QBs floundering right now because we've hit the point of overvaluing QBs to where teams can't build properly around them. Someone's going to be left holding the **** contracts, let's hope it ain't us.

true but he had all-star production last year...he had a **** WCF...I get it...the two series before that were good. Here's for all our sake he can put together a full playoff run and also remain healthy.

[Capn'O]

Let's just not **** around and lose our last semblances of rim protection/drop coverage and I'm fine to wait and see optimistically.

The Question is...... what will the Clippers do.....

It's a good question, TC. A very good question. A lot depends on dearest Jonathan.

[TheGreenArrow]

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[sol537]

All signs point to Randle leaving Minny in free agency after one season in Minny (who knows, maybe they win it all?). Minny holds on to DDV, NAW and Reid after that and keeps themselves under the second apron, while still being a solid team led by Ant.

Randle probably signs in CHA, DET or WAS for 4/200 or something.

[NYKinMIA]

I'll question whatever the **** I wanna question if you don't like people making predictions log off in the offseason you won't be missed hoe.

insults and hyperbole expose you.

I'm not going any-fuqin-where, kid.

Expose me? **** we talking about BASKETBALL.

TF you think you exposing? That I like talking ****? That's not new I been around a decade atp.

Get a grip my boy. Mind you you're mad I said we shouldn't have to delude ourselves that the team is good to tune in especially when we always suck but look at you, emotional.

the fact that you can't debate your "opinion" without insults "exposes" who we're dealing with.

it takes more than a keyboard kid to stir my emotions. good luck with all that, I'm done wasting my time on you.