OT: Clinton or Bush?

[DOT]

I also realize that he could say tomorrow that he’d veto any more weapons to Israel and not only would he not pick up a single vote from those on the left that were threatening to sit out or vote third party

Because he said this already

He said Israel bombing Rafah was a "red line" and he would stop funding them. Israel bombed Rafah anyways, and he said "that doesn't count, we're still gonna fund them"

So if he said tomorrow he'd veto any more weapons to Israel, I would not believe him. I don't know why you think we shouldn't judge him based off his previous actions and pretend like he's some pacifist just looking for peace

It really gives off blue MAGA energy the way you can't handle criticisms of Biden.

[Stannis]

How is Biden’s foreign policy the same as Trump? This is the insanity I was talking about earlier. Let me remind you what Trump has done and said about the Middle East:

If you want to criticize Biden’s Middle East policy have at it but you can’t ignore the context that it’s in. Israel suffered the worst terrorist attack in the country’s history, this was close to an election year for the U.S. President, both Israeli and Gaza governments are run by uncompromising pieces of **** that want to see Trump win and you have to be fair regarding what the alternative (Trump) would look like.

I definitely believe Biden has a blind spot for Israel out of some nostalgia and his policy of hugging Netanyahu has failed.

I have communicated many times now that these "single issue" people, including myself, understand that Trump would be worse. But you cannot possibly tell them that they vote for a slow death and call it some kind of mercy.

I also think Biden is being very selfish here. He is going to retire in January, maybe sooner. You just said it yourself that Biden has a "blind spot for Israel out of some nostalgia and his policy of hugging Netanyahu has failed". Nostalgia doesn't sound like he has America's best interest in mind.

Guess who's going to have to defend all that during the campaigns + elections? Kamala
If elected, guess who's going to have to try and fix the mess thanks to Biden's unconditional aid? Kamala

Guess who will get the blame?

I also realize that he could say tomorrow that he’d veto any more weapons to Israel and not only would he not pick up a single vote from those on the left that were threatening to sit out or vote third party but he’d lose reliable votes and nothing would change in Gaza because Israel could still continue their war without U.S. support.

He's had months to veto weapons and/or set stronger conditionals. But he has not.

You are making a hypothetical that just will not happen at this point. But for the sake of argument, I'll bite. Yes, it would turn voters. Don't be naive. C'mon now.

Third parties, independents, single issue voters, and non-voters, are part of elections. You have to stop pretending this only hurts democrats. Libertarians cost Trump votes in 2020 when they realized there was nothing Libertarian about him. Reproductive rights, weed legalization helped democrats in the midterms. It's all part of elections .

[MrDollarBills]

I look at it this way, and this does not absolve Biden of any culpability here because the criticisms here have merit and should be acknowledged. That being said, this is my view:

The moment Biden does anything to impede Israel, the pro Israeli factions within the DNC will shank him, the GOP will spin it as Biden supports Hamas, the media will use it to try and derail Harris' campaign, and Trump will start telling Jewish voters "See? I told you!". As much as I hate this, we can't ignore the fact that October 7th did irreparable damage, and there are people who support Harris who are pro Israeli.

So, what is the solution here? I don't know any other way this can be played without tipping the election to Trump besides holding the line til after the election, and that frankly sucks to high hell. I don't know what else can be done within the next few weeks otherwise.

[Stannis]

And note, it was (supposedly) Iran funding the latest Trump assassinstion plot.
Lines up perfectly for them.

That's all FUD to expedite a war with Iran if Trump gets elected.

[Stannis]

The moment Biden does anything to impede Israel, the pro Israeli factions within the DNC will shank him, the GOP will spin it as Biden supports Hamas, the media will use it to try and derail Harris' campaign, and

FWIW, a lot of this is already happening. There's already ads running and popular conservative talking heads claiming that the Democratic party is the "party of Hamas" lol.

Trump will start telling Jewish voters "See? I told you!".

Trump is already saying all that. He's also apparently getting $100m from the Adelson family.

So, what is the solution here? I don't know any other way this can be played without tipping the election to Trump besides holding the line til after the election, and that frankly sucks to high hell. I don't know what else can be done within the next few weeks otherwise.

You don't necessarily have to make it about Israel versus Palestine. You can just say you are taking an anti-war stance. This would be a good thing.

We've already established that Biden/Harris might have lost votes from the Pro-Israel groups.

This is where I think Biden/Harris are screwing up. The admin has been trying to both sides it. Send some small aid (like the pier that got destroyed within a month) while arming the other. Constantly undermining the UN.

This isn't a lose-lose situation. They are making it a lose-lose situation.

[Stannis]

In other news... 30 dead and 1000 unaccounted for in Asheville, NC. No power until Friday...

Asheville, NC floods Sunday recap: 30 dead in Buncombe County, power expected back Friday
https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2024/09/29/asheville-nc-buncombe-county-flooding-live-updates-sunday/75440849007/

[MrDollarBills]

In other news... 30 dead and 1000 unaccounted for in Asheville, NC. No power until Friday...

Asheville, NC floods Sunday recap: 30 dead in Buncombe County, power expected back Friday
https://www.citizen-times.com/story/news/local/2024/09/29/asheville-nc-buncombe-county-flooding-live-updates-sunday/75440849007/

That situation is horrific. The entire town was destroyed.

[Pointgod]

I can easily defend Biden’s polices and actions.
- Not emboldening dictators
-Strenghing European alliances by supporting Ukraine
-Significantly dropping overseas drone strikes (people on the left used to care about this)
- Committing to the withdrawal of Afghanistan even if it was because of a horrible deal

I don't see anything in here defending Biden bypassing Congress to send Israel arms to fund their genocide of Gaza, just deflections to other actions

Talk about insane gaslighting and being completely disingenuous.

Again I look at the total foreign policy not just ones related to one issue and I definitely think Biden made mistakes with his strategy to hug Netanyahu but I also realize the context with which everything is happening and I also know we are not working with also the information that Biden and his administration knows and ultimately it’s likely that no matter what decision he made all roads lead to this path where we are now with worse results.

And as far as bypassing Congress to sell weapons to Israel, from what I’ve read his administration used the authority afforded to them to speed up a shipment of weapons that would have been approved by Congress anyways just getting it to Israel faster. Other administrations have also done this exact thing in the past as well so yeah it deserves criticism and both sides have been hypocrites on this issue because they only cry foul when Presidents of the other party do this. So yeah it deserves criticism but at the end of the day I don’t think it’s a reason not to vote for Harris.

[HarthorneWingo]

Dikembe at the pearly gates when Trump attempts to barge into heaven:

Who want to sex Mutombo?!?!?!?!

RIP Big Fella. Deke always competed with the heart of a lion.

[Clyde_Style]

Going to tell you guys now since I am in the area. Pennsylvannia will be a problem. Voter registration numbers don't look great for the Dems when compared between 2020 and now. The Republicans have really ramped up registration in that area. Also every poll has the general election close, but the same polls showing Senate race have Casey from the Democratic party far ahead. Basically this is not simple tribalism and voters in PA "seem" likely do a split ticket vote. If Dems don't get the turnout necessary (and honestly the registration numbers are worrying here), then Harris will be relying on the Independents and "undecideds". And since I am in the area to see all the ads, Trump and the Republicans have an all out blitz over here. Harris needs to step it up over here for these last 40+ days to shut the door on Trump's campaign. That economic speech in Pittsburg was a great start, so we'll see what she does moving forward.

Thanks for the report. Where do those registration numbers come from? Pretty much the rest of the country has seen a surge in voter registrations and it doesn't really favor the GOP. The big difference now is more people register as independents, but that means they already lean towards Dems statistically at present.

Also, why do you think there won't be a strong turnout? All elections since 2020 have had strong democrat turnouts and I expect that to continue now too.

As far as ground games, Trump dismantled the RNC and put his own family in charge to funnel fundraising into his own pocket. The rest of the GOP has been bitching about no funding for their campaigns. Harris has opened campaign offices everywhere and Trump has not.

The only reason I can think that Trump appears more ubiquitous in PA outside the Philly area is it is the one state Trump is fully focused on. He has weirdly bailed on most of the swing states already after Harris roared ahead of him in states like AZ and caught up to him in NC. Trump can't win without PA.

I've observed how badly polls have performed in the past four years in particular with the typical result of the Dems consistently outperforming the polls by big percentages. It doesn't guarantee anything, but if the pattern holds true there is a strong possibility Trump may lose almost every swing state. That would be an electoral landslide for Harris.

I'm not saying this will happen nor am I confident or relaxed about it, but I do not believe Trump is organized and campaigning well at all. You're the first person I've even heard say he has any kind of ground game.

[Clyde_Style]

P.S. Look up America PAC. It is pretty much the only ground game Trump is deploying. It is primarily funded by Elon Musk and it is a disaster. They hired and fired and hired staff in multiple states and can't seem to get their act together.

Oh, and one polling note. There are new polls showing Trump only up by 1% in Florida. Harris has put a lot of states into play evidently.

[Handledatruth]

Going to tell you guys now since I am in the area. Pennsylvannia will be a problem. Voter registration numbers don't look great for the Dems when compared between 2020 and now. The Republicans have really ramped up registration in that area. Also every poll has the general election close, but the same polls showing Senate race have Casey from the Democratic party far ahead. Basically this is not simple tribalism and voters in PA "seem" likely do a split ticket vote. If Dems don't get the turnout necessary (and honestly the registration numbers are worrying here), then Harris will be relying on the Independents and "undecideds". And since I am in the area to see all the ads, Trump and the Republicans have an all out blitz over here. Harris needs to step it up over here for these last 40+ days to shut the door on Trump's campaign. That economic speech in Pittsburg was a great start, so we'll see what she does moving forward.

Thanks for the report. Where do those registration numbers come from? Pretty much the rest of the country has seen a surge in voter registrations and it doesn't really favor the GOP. The big difference now is more people register as independents, but that means they already lean towards Dems statistically at present.

Also, why do you think there won't be a strong turnout? All elections since 2020 have had strong democrat turnouts and I expect that to continue now too.

As far as ground games, Trump dismantled the RNC and put his own family in charge to funnel fundraising into his own pocket. The rest of the GOP has been bitching about no funding for their campaigns. Harris has opened campaign offices everywhere and Trump has not.

The only reason I can think that Trump appears more ubiquitous in PA outside the Philly area is it is the one state Trump is fully focused on. He has weirdly bailed on most of the swing states already after Harris roared ahead of him in states like AZ and caught up to him in NC. Trump can't win without PA.

I've observed how badly polls have performed in the past four years in particular with the typical result of the Dems consistently outperforming the polls by big percentages. It doesn't guarantee anything, but if the pattern holds true there is a strong possibility Trump may lose almost every swing state. That would be an electoral landslide for Harris.

I'm not saying this will happen nor am I confident or relaxed about it, but I do not believe Trump is organized and campaigning well at all. You're the first person I've even heard say he has any kind of ground game.

It's in a spreadsheet, but the registration data is broken down by county and has party details.

https://www.pa.gov/en/agencies/dos/resources/voting-and-elections-resources/voting-and-election-statistics.html

And here you can see the registration numbers in 2020.

https://www.pa.gov/content/dam/copapwp-pagov/en/dos/resources/voting-and-elections/reports/voter-registration/2020-Annual-Voter-Registration-Report.pdf

Overall there are almost 200,000 less registered Democrats in 2024 than there were in 2020. Now this doesn't take into account the Independents, but honestly you never really know with them so I always make them a coin flip. I also acknowledge that there will be a group of republicans that flip on him, but the polling makes me a bit cautious about that. I agree Trump's ground game is trash and his commercials are a joke, but PA has been turning purple for some time now and the trend is still continuing. Unfortunately, he is benefiting from this trend. Overall, I think Harris needs to continue pushing her economic message in the area to drown out the Trump's fear mongering commercials. So far she seems to be avoiding Hillary's mistakes of pushing resources into places like Florida when she should be solidifying the blue wall. The Dem's have smartened up which is the good news.

On the flip side. I would bet money that she'll lock down both GA and NC, so PA won't really matter. The data in those 2 states is a bit tougher to dig through though.

[Clyde_Style]

Going to tell you guys now since I am in the area. Pennsylvannia will be a problem. Voter registration numbers don't look great for the Dems when compared between 2020 and now. The Republicans have really ramped up registration in that area. Also every poll has the general election close, but the same polls showing Senate race have Casey from the Democratic party far ahead. Basically this is not simple tribalism and voters in PA "seem" likely do a split ticket vote. If Dems don't get the turnout necessary (and honestly the registration numbers are worrying here), then Harris will be relying on the Independents and "undecideds". And since I am in the area to see all the ads, Trump and the Republicans have an all out blitz over here. Harris needs to step it up over here for these last 40+ days to shut the door on Trump's campaign. That economic speech in Pittsburg was a great start, so we'll see what she does moving forward.

Thanks for the report. Where do those registration numbers come from? Pretty much the rest of the country has seen a surge in voter registrations and it doesn't really favor the GOP. The big difference now is more people register as independents, but that means they already lean towards Dems statistically at present.

Also, why do you think there won't be a strong turnout? All elections since 2020 have had strong democrat turnouts and I expect that to continue now too.

As far as ground games, Trump dismantled the RNC and put his own family in charge to funnel fundraising into his own pocket. The rest of the GOP has been bitching about no funding for their campaigns. Harris has opened campaign offices everywhere and Trump has not.

The only reason I can think that Trump appears more ubiquitous in PA outside the Philly area is it is the one state Trump is fully focused on. He has weirdly bailed on most of the swing states already after Harris roared ahead of him in states like AZ and caught up to him in NC. Trump can't win without PA.

I've observed how badly polls have performed in the past four years in particular with the typical result of the Dems consistently outperforming the polls by big percentages. It doesn't guarantee anything, but if the pattern holds true there is a strong possibility Trump may lose almost every swing state. That would be an electoral landslide for Harris.

I'm not saying this will happen nor am I confident or relaxed about it, but I do not believe Trump is organized and campaigning well at all. You're the first person I've even heard say he has any kind of ground game.

It's in a spreadsheet, but the registration data is broken down by county and has party details.

https://www.pa.gov/en/agencies/dos/resources/voting-and-elections-resources/voting-and-election-statistics.html

And here you can see the registration numbers in 2020.

https://www.pa.gov/content/dam/copapwp-pagov/en/dos/resources/voting-and-elections/reports/voter-registration/2020-Annual-Voter-Registration-Report.pdf

Overall there are almost 200,000 less registered Democrats in 2024 than there were in 2020. Now this doesn't take into account the Independents, but honestly you never really know with them so I always make them a coin flip. I also acknowledge that there will be a group of republicans that flip on him, but the polling makes me a bit cautious about that. I agree Trump's ground game is trash and his commercials are a joke, but PA has been turning purple for some time now and the trend is still continuing. Unfortunately, he is benefiting from this trend. Overall, I think Harris needs to continue pushing her economic message in the area to drown out the Trump's fear mongering commercials. So far she seems to be avoiding Hillary's mistakes of pushing resources into places like Florida when she should be solidifying the blue wall. The Dem's have smartened up which is the good news.

On the flip side. I would bet money that she'll lock down both GA and NC, so PA won't really matter. The data in those 2 states is a bit tougher to dig through though.

Seems counter to reports of increases in Dem registrations overall. It kind of makes sense to me in an Ohio sense which is now quite red outside of most urban zones. PA could keep drifting in that direction.

What I have read recently is Harris is getting through on border control issues and now she's making headway on economic issues. Those are two key subject areas she needs to win more confidence on to get swing votes.

How important do you feel labor union votes are in PA? At this point, it does appears union workers who've voted red for multiple election cycles are flipping blue. Kind of easy to see why.

[ScienceOfLosing]

And note, it was (supposedly) Iran funding the latest Trump assassinstion plot.
Lines up perfectly for them.

That's all FUD to expedite a war with Iran if Trump gets elected.

Asif Merchant was arrested on July 12. He had just loaded his luggage into his ride to the airport, commencing a journey either to his wife and children in Iran or to a different wife and children in his native Pakistan. In weeks of secretly recorded conversations with a federal informant, Merchant had confided that he had families in both countries. He also, according to an FBI affidavit, said he had come to America to arrange the assassination of “a political person.”

The identity of that person was not explicitly stated, either by Merchant or by his handler in Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, according to a leaked document that was posted online by U.S. Sen. Charles Grassley on Sept. 5 after, the Iowa Republican said, it was provided to him by a whistleblower. But, along with other evidence, the documents all but confirm that Donald Trump was the person Merchant was authorized to offer up to $1 million to kill...

https://time.com/7013497/donald-trump-iran-assassination-plot/

Two assassination attempts and another planned, barely being covered by MSM.
But oddly, they did years of Trump Russia Russia Russia when your special council couldn’t find anything (and most here still believe what msm parroted for years.)

No US soldiers sent into existing or new conflicts by Trump, first since Carter, and your idea is Trump will invade Iran.

Welcome to TDS.

[thebuzzardman]

And note, it was (supposedly) Iran funding the latest Trump assassinstion plot.
Lines up perfectly for them.

That's all FUD to expedite a war with Iran if Trump gets elected.

Asif Merchant was arrested on July 12. He had just loaded his luggage into his ride to the airport, commencing a journey either to his wife and children in Iran or to a different wife and children in his native Pakistan. In weeks of secretly recorded conversations with a federal informant, Merchant had confided that he had families in both countries. He also, according to an FBI affidavit, said he had come to America to arrange the assassination of “a political person.”

The identity of that person was not explicitly stated, either by Merchant or by his handler in Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, according to a leaked document that was posted online by U.S. Sen. Charles Grassley on Sept. 5 after, the Iowa Republican said, it was provided to him by a whistleblower. But, along with other evidence, the documents all but confirm that Donald Trump was the person Merchant was authorized to offer up to $1 million to kill...

https://time.com/7013497/donald-trump-iran-assassination-plot/

Two assassination attempts and another planned, barely being covered by MSM.
But oddly, they did years of Trump Russia Russia Russia when your special council couldn’t find anything (and most here still believe what msm parroted for years.)

No US soldiers sent into existing or new conflicts by Trump, first since Carter, and your idea is Trump will invade Iran.

Welcome to TDS.

Those attempts were covered PLENTY by the mainstream media.

[thebuzzardman]

And note, it was (supposedly) Iran funding the latest Trump assassinstion plot.
Lines up perfectly for them.

That's all FUD to expedite a war with Iran if Trump gets elected.

Asif Merchant was arrested on July 12. He had just loaded his luggage into his ride to the airport, commencing a journey either to his wife and children in Iran or to a different wife and children in his native Pakistan. In weeks of secretly recorded conversations with a federal informant, Merchant had confided that he had families in both countries. He also, according to an FBI affidavit, said he had come to America to arrange the assassination of “a political person.”

The identity of that person was not explicitly stated, either by Merchant or by his handler in Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, according to a leaked document that was posted online by U.S. Sen. Charles Grassley on Sept. 5 after, the Iowa Republican said, it was provided to him by a whistleblower. But, along with other evidence, the documents all but confirm that Donald Trump was the person Merchant was authorized to offer up to $1 million to kill...

https://time.com/7013497/donald-trump-iran-assassination-plot/

Two assassination attempts and another planned, barely being covered by MSM.
But oddly, they did years of Trump Russia Russia Russia when your special council couldn’t find anything (and most here still believe what msm parroted for years.)

No US soldiers sent into existing or new conflicts by Trump, first since Carter, and your idea is Trump will invade Iran.

Welcome to TDS.

Yemen, Kenya, Syria, Afghanistan....

[DOT]

I can easily defend Biden’s polices and actions.
- Not emboldening dictators
-Strenghing European alliances by supporting Ukraine
-Significantly dropping overseas drone strikes (people on the left used to care about this)
- Committing to the withdrawal of Afghanistan even if it was because of a horrible deal

I don't see anything in here defending Biden bypassing Congress to send Israel arms to fund their genocide of Gaza, just deflections to other actions

Talk about insane gaslighting and being completely disingenuous.

Again I look at the total foreign policy not just ones related to one issue and I definitely think Biden made mistakes with his strategy to hug Netanyahu but I also realize the context with which everything is happening and I also know we are not working with also the information that Biden and his administration knows and ultimately it’s likely that no matter what decision he made all roads lead to this path where we are now with worse results.

And as far as bypassing Congress to sell weapons to Israel, from what I’ve read his administration used the authority afforded to them to speed up a shipment of weapons that would have been approved by Congress anyways just getting it to Israel faster. Other administrations have also done this exact thing in the past as well so yeah it deserves criticism and both sides have been hypocrites on this issue because they only cry foul when Presidents of the other party do this. So yeah it deserves criticism but at the end of the day I don’t think it’s a reason not to vote for Harris.

I think this really encapsulates the problem

It's that y'all agree in theory we should criticize Biden, but whenever someone actually criticizes him, y'all start tweaking out. Like, you legit went from "he made mistakes with his strategy" to "his strategy led to the best results" within the same sentence

It's literally the exact same thing Trump supporters do. Blue MAGA.

[Stannis]

Two assassination attempts and another planned, barely being covered by MSM.
But oddly, they did years of Trump Russia Russia Russia when your special council couldn’t find anything (and most here still believe what msm parroted for years.)

No US soldiers sent into existing or new conflicts by Trump, first since Carter, and your idea is Trump will invade Iran.

Welcome to TDS.

Complains about MSM... then sources MSM... my point was that MSM & USA (that will include Trump if he is elected) are pushing a war with Iran. With Trump, it will likely happen faster.

Trump is getting 100m from the Adelson family to annex the West Bank. This is the same family who wanted Obama to drop nukes on Iran. They constantly criticized Obama for not being as ruthless in the Middle East. Trump can be bought. He flat out admitted this when he said he had to support Electric Vehicles now because Elon Musk endorsed him.

If it was a Republican like Thomas Massie, then I can see people viewing the candidate as an outsider, anti-war / America first candidate.

[MrDollarBills]

Dock workers went on strike.

[Stannis]

Those attempts were covered PLENTY by the mainstream media.

We also never get to talk about politics on here unless there's a Trump assassination.

Why does Trump get special treatment? I feel like my political views are being suppressed

/semi sarcasm