Tank World Order V (Rise of the Phoenix)

[Zeno]

I'm not sure I understand the Rise of the Phoenix in the brackets in the title. Sounds too uplifting for a tank. Maybe throw in the word Lead like Zepplin did to give that sinking feeling. Rise of the Led Phoenix captures it better in my opinion.

[ConSarnit]

Lavine/Lonzo isn't that far off from DD/Caruso IMO. Presuming Lavine is healthy...and Lonzo lol. Throw in Giddy, and improvements from White/Ayo/Williams, and I think they are play in bound. Lavine or Lonzo out for any extended period and they probably are slightly below us.

Lonzo and Lavine will not be healthy for a full season. And even if they are, Lonzo is going to be a shadow of his former self.

We're going to be competing with the Bulls in the tank standings.

I think you're underestimating how effective Lonzo might be. He's a high IQ player, so even if he's 80% of his old athletic ability he's still an effective rotation player.

Bulls problem is they desperately wan to trade Lavine, so they need to play him lots and have him play well. So for the first half of the year they'll be winning more games than expected. Then when they do trade him they'll still have a solid backcourt so the drop off won't be severe. Really hard for them to tank.

We have the advantage of less depth. We lose a player to injury we are in trouble. They lose a player they back to a normal rotation.

That said I do think we'll be in the same grouping as them just a little lower. I have Bulls, Hawks and Charlotte all being better than us but only if they all stay healthy.

While it would be nice to see Lonzo back (like him as a player and he helps push us down in the standings) I am extremely skeptical of his comeback. He has an injury that as far as I know no one has really ever been able to come back from and he hasn’t played an NBA game in 1000 days. Is there any precedent for a player missing 2+ years in the middle of their career and actually returning to “effective NBA player level”?

[UnbelievablyRAW]

Tanking will be the least of our problems if we find out IQ and Barnes are actually mediocre or average players. Both are being paid handsomely, so if we end up being a bottom 6 team in the league again with little to no injuries, our cap sheet will be screwed even if we end up in the high lottery.


I’d rather us move up and beat draft odds than be so bad we should expect a top 5 pick

[Brinbe]

Lonzo and Lavine will not be healthy for a full season. And even if they are, Lonzo is going to be a shadow of his former self.

We're going to be competing with the Bulls in the tank standings.

I think you're underestimating how effective Lonzo might be. He's a high IQ player, so even if he's 80% of his old athletic ability he's still an effective rotation player.

Bulls problem is they desperately wan to trade Lavine, so they need to play him lots and have him play well. So for the first half of the year they'll be winning more games than expected. Then when they do trade him they'll still have a solid backcourt so the drop off won't be severe. Really hard for them to tank.

We have the advantage of less depth. We lose a player to injury we are in trouble. They lose a player they back to a normal rotation.

That said I do think we'll be in the same grouping as them just a little lower. I have Bulls, Hawks and Charlotte all being better than us but only if they all stay healthy.

While it would be nice to see Lonzo back (like him as a player and he helps push us down in the standings) I am extremely skeptical of his comeback. He has an injury that as far as I know no one has really ever been able to come back from and he hasn’t played an NBA game in 1000 days. Is there any precedent for a player missing 2+ years in the middle of their career and actually returning to “effective NBA player level”?

Watch on YouTube

[Scase]

Tanking will be the least of our problems if we find out IQ and Barnes are actually mediocre or average players. Both are being paid handsomely, so if we end up being a bottom 6 team in the league again with little to no injuries, our cap sheet will be screwed even if we end up in the high lottery.


I’d rather us move up and beat draft odds than be so bad we should expect a top 5 pick

Well they are already better than mediocre/average, so that's a good thing. Scottie getting better is extremely likely, the question is always how much better. His ceiling is obviously MVP level, but realistically all NBA 2nd team is where he settles in. IQ I see as a fringe AS player where he settles in, with a 2-3x AS as his ceiling, same for RJ.

And that is really the problem with this team, we only have a single player with a high ceiling, which is why we desperately need a top 5 pick. IQ's contract while I feel is a bit bloated, if he manages to put up 20/5/8 on solid splits like 45/40/85 will not be hard to move if need be.

Even with a bottom 6 outcome of them all being healthy, I don't think it's a massive indictment of the core, but rather the rest of the team. We have like a bottom 2 bench, it's been awful for years, and this year it's pretty much staffed by a bunch of players that shouldn't be in the league (Ochai), guys that likely won't be in the league much longer due to skill set or age (Mitchell/Olynyk), or a bunch of rookie second rounders that typically don't develop into anything useful.

We don't even have an NBA level starting 5, and the guys who are clear cut starters like Jak/SB/RJ/IQ are mostly unproven. We'd need the stars to align, and the rest of the east to completely crater for us to be a playoff team.

[ConSarnit]

I think you're underestimating how effective Lonzo might be. He's a high IQ player, so even if he's 80% of his old athletic ability he's still an effective rotation player.

Bulls problem is they desperately wan to trade Lavine, so they need to play him lots and have him play well. So for the first half of the year they'll be winning more games than expected. Then when they do trade him they'll still have a solid backcourt so the drop off won't be severe. Really hard for them to tank.

We have the advantage of less depth. We lose a player to injury we are in trouble. They lose a player they back to a normal rotation.

That said I do think we'll be in the same grouping as them just a little lower. I have Bulls, Hawks and Charlotte all being better than us but only if they all stay healthy.

While it would be nice to see Lonzo back (like him as a player and he helps push us down in the standings) I am extremely skeptical of his comeback. He has an injury that as far as I know no one has really ever been able to come back from and he hasn’t played an NBA game in 1000 days. Is there any precedent for a player missing 2+ years in the middle of their career and actually returning to “effective NBA player level”?

Watch on YouTube

Jordan missed an entire year less than Lonzo has. He also wasn’t sidelined by an injury during that time.

Perhaps I need to be less dubious of his comeback attempt. The procedure Ball had is a newer technology so perhaps a return to full health is more likely than it was in the past for those who had cartilage issues. I saw some reports that almost 80% of athletes return to their previous levels after cartilage replacement (which is what has replaced the far less effective microfracture surgery).

[Vampirate]

Lavine/Lonzo isn't that far off from DD/Caruso IMO. Presuming Lavine is healthy...and Lonzo lol. Throw in Giddy, and improvements from White/Ayo/Williams, and I think they are play in bound. Lavine or Lonzo out for any extended period and they probably are slightly below us.

I'm honestly half in/half out in TWO this time, i'd rather see a much improved team with Barnes leading the way as it would indicate at least one of Barnes/IQ/Gradey has made a significant jump from last year.

I think the reason why we'd be mid this year instead of just bad would be encouraging, especially compared to season's past.

That being said, i'm not opposed to a top 10, hopefully 5 pick in this years draft should we happen to be very bad.

Let's just have this team Sink or Swim as it is.

It's kind of conflicting because as much as we need another pick, we also need our core to prove they are worth it for the long haul.

My issue with being mid, is that for this team to have any chance of becoming any real threat, we'd need Scottie to blow up into an MVP candidate level player, and one of IQ/RJ to become an all star. None of those are particularly realistic, which is why I think we need at least 1 more blue chip prospect, ideally a top 5 from this years draft. After that, I'm fine if we start pushing for wins.

But with how stacked the top 5 is this year, it's just negligence to aim for some play in appearance and a mid to late lotto pick. We aren't a team on the rise, we're just a team.

I think you're misunderstanding a bit.

I'll re-question it this way.

Forget the playin, what do you think needs to actually happen in order for this team as currently constructed to be .450 - .520 without any short sighted moves?

As for tanking, I did mention I was half in, and you know Atlanta does need defense, so i'd target them with Yak if we're going that route.

[Badonkadonk]

Tanking will be the least of our problems if we find out IQ and Barnes are actually mediocre or average players. Both are being paid handsomely, so if we end up being a bottom 6 team in the league again with little to no injuries, our cap sheet will be screwed even if we end up in the high lottery.


I’d rather us move up and beat draft odds than be so bad we should expect a top 5 pick

IQ and Scottie not living up is the one true path to bottoming out. The FO waited on banking everything on Scottie's development in particular, but after Year 3 and the All-Star start, they're all in. If it doesn't work, the Raps will be the new Pistons.

[Boogie!]

if were tanking this year, it doesn't really bode well for scottie's development. He was an all-star last year, and is supposed to be the cornerstone building block. He's already in his 4th year... by this point, if he is who we expect him to be he should be carrying the team to wins...

Gotta look at it from a long term perspective and his development for his 5 year Max contract he just signed....He still has 1 more year under his last contract and his Max contract starts next year....We still have half a decade with Barnes being on the team....Hes going nowhere...No need to be in a rush for him to "Make the playoffs this year or hes a total bust" type of guy just yet...

What we need is another top of the line prospect for him to play with and be alongside him....We need another top end draft pick on the same or above level as Scottie Barnes is for this team to actually be a threat during Barnes Max contract years...That should be the goal of everyone and the front office...

We have 1 bad year, Go into next year with Lets say and hope for 1 of Flagg/Bailey/Harper/Edgecomb/Troare and start Barnes era the right way....Can't go wrong with any of them prospects imo...

I think this teams needs just 1 more player on that level to be where we were during the Lowry/DD era ...Winning 40+ games every year and being in the conversation in the playoffs...Thats more intriguing to me than trying to push Barnes to win here too early lose in the playoffs cause we are not talented enough and get a pick in the 15th area where they turn out to be players that are not on the team in 2-3 years times cause they are not that good...To push this current team we have to the playoffs and actually win some series in the playoffs you would need a prime LeBron James....And Barnes is not that type of player...Still a great player just will never be on that level...

So you’re admitting Barnes is not a star franchise player? This is my point… usually star players are already carrying their teams by the 4th season

[Syd-TK3]

That bulls team will give up 130pts every game

[Scase]

I'm honestly half in/half out in TWO this time, i'd rather see a much improved team with Barnes leading the way as it would indicate at least one of Barnes/IQ/Gradey has made a significant jump from last year.

I think the reason why we'd be mid this year instead of just bad would be encouraging, especially compared to season's past.

That being said, i'm not opposed to a top 10, hopefully 5 pick in this years draft should we happen to be very bad.

Let's just have this team Sink or Swim as it is.

It's kind of conflicting because as much as we need another pick, we also need our core to prove they are worth it for the long haul.

My issue with being mid, is that for this team to have any chance of becoming any real threat, we'd need Scottie to blow up into an MVP candidate level player, and one of IQ/RJ to become an all star. None of those are particularly realistic, which is why I think we need at least 1 more blue chip prospect, ideally a top 5 from this years draft. After that, I'm fine if we start pushing for wins.

But with how stacked the top 5 is this year, it's just negligence to aim for some play in appearance and a mid to late lotto pick. We aren't a team on the rise, we're just a team.

I think you're misunderstanding a bit.

I'll re-question it this way.

Forget the playin, what do you think needs to actually happen in order for this team as currently constructed to be .450 - .520 without any short sighted moves?

As for tanking, I did mention I was half in, and you know Atlanta does need defense, so i'd target them with Yak if we're going that route.

Do you mean what can be done with this team, or what is a pie in the sky hope?

.450-.520 is like a 37-43 win range, as currently constructed, we'd need Scottie taking another step like 3rd team, RJ/IQ being fringe AS players, and Gradey to become like a 15+ppg player on 40ish percent from 3. Probably gonna need 1 or 2 bench guys to not be utterly worthless as well.

The starting 5 would also have to play like 38mpg, and that's again kinda my point. The core isn't bad, but the supporting cast is where the team is massively handicapped. I have little doubt that BBQ could manage a mediocre treadmill type record by playing them big minutes, but again, that's kinda my point. The team could get that kind of record, but it will not result in any real success.

Being able to manage a 37-43 win record is not impressive, as it would require all 3 of them taking noticeable steps forward, and then once they hit that win threshold, then what? They aren't all going to be able to take another significant step to push them towards say 50 wins, for that you need to flesh out the rest of the team. So we'd need at least 1 or 2 of those SRP rookies to turn into like a 6th man level player, which again, unrealistic.

I don't think there are any real moves/trades that can be made with what we have to significantly improve the team to make that kind of win jump, assuming you mean the upcoming season. That's why I think getting a high pick this year is really the only non short sighted move we can make, so yeah, long term would be moving Jak.

If ATL wants to push for wins they could be an option, not sure what they have left of anymore or they'd be willing to give up that would be worth it for us. I think MEM would be an interesting target, we could trade Jak for Edey and maybe some seconds + filler. But not sure how much they'd be open to that since he'd basically be a backup to JJJ.

This team is just way too thin on overall talent, and with the talent we do have, we only have 1 player with an actual high ceiling. Hopefully that answered your question

[Vampirate]

My issue with being mid, is that for this team to have any chance of becoming any real threat, we'd need Scottie to blow up into an MVP candidate level player, and one of IQ/RJ to become an all star. None of those are particularly realistic, which is why I think we need at least 1 more blue chip prospect, ideally a top 5 from this years draft. After that, I'm fine if we start pushing for wins.

But with how stacked the top 5 is this year, it's just negligence to aim for some play in appearance and a mid to late lotto pick. We aren't a team on the rise, we're just a team.

I think you're misunderstanding a bit.

I'll re-question it this way.

Forget the playin, what do you think needs to actually happen in order for this team as currently constructed to be .450 - .520 without any short sighted moves?

As for tanking, I did mention I was half in, and you know Atlanta does need defense, so i'd target them with Yak if we're going that route.

Do you mean what can be done with this team, or what is a pie in the sky hope?

.450-.520 is like a 37-43 win range, as currently constructed, we'd need Scottie taking another step like 3rd team, RJ/IQ being fringe AS players, and Gradey to become like a 15+ppg player on 40ish percent from 3. Probably gonna need 1 or 2 bench guys to not be utterly worthless as well.

The starting 5 would also have to play like 38mpg, and that's again kinda my point. The core isn't bad, but the supporting cast is where the team is massively handicapped. I have little doubt that BBQ could manage a mediocre treadmill type record by playing them big minutes, but again, that's kinda my point. The team could get that kind of record, but it will not result in any real success.

Being able to manage a 37-43 win record is not impressive, as it would require all 3 of them taking noticeable steps forward, and then once they hit that win threshold, then what? They aren't all going to be able to take [b]another significant step to push them towards say 50 wins, for that you need to flesh out the rest of the team. So we'd need at least 1 or 2 of those SRP rookies to turn into like a 6th man level player, which again, unrealistic.

I don't think there are any real moves/trades that can be made with what we have to significantly improve the team to make that kind of win jump, assuming you mean the upcoming season. That's why I think getting a high pick this year is really the only non short sighted move we can make, so yeah, long term would be moving Jak.

If ATL wants to push for wins they could be an option, not sure what they have left of anymore or they'd be willing to give up that would be worth it for us. I think MEM would be an interesting target, we could trade Jak for Edey and maybe some seconds + filler. But not sure how much they'd be open to that since he'd basically be a backup to JJJ.

This team is just way too thin on overall talent, and with the talent we do have, we only have 1 player with an actual high ceiling. Hopefully that answered your question

First bolded, we both know that Darko isn't going to Nurse this team and play them like Nurse ran them through the mud for wins in the past. So essentially you're implying that even if our core took another leap, .500 isn't happening, which is by itself a fair point.

2nd bolded, yes let's please not have a Yak trade 2.0. I do think Chomche is a dark horse candidate himself on raising the ceiling for the team to a 50 win one, his actual ceiling is hard to tell tbh. His ceiling ranges from out of the league to an All NBA player.

Lastly, as for Atlanta, I just think they are one of the more desperate teams atm, and have no incentive to tank as they screwed up with trading with SAS much more than we did. I doubt Memphis is in a rush to get rid of Edey.

[Scase]

I think you're misunderstanding a bit.

I'll re-question it this way.

Forget the playin, what do you think needs to actually happen in order for this team as currently constructed to be .450 - .520 without any short sighted moves?

As for tanking, I did mention I was half in, and you know Atlanta does need defense, so i'd target them with Yak if we're going that route.

Do you mean what can be done with this team, or what is a pie in the sky hope?

.450-.520 is like a 37-43 win range, as currently constructed, we'd need Scottie taking another step like 3rd team, RJ/IQ being fringe AS players, and Gradey to become like a 15+ppg player on 40ish percent from 3. Probably gonna need 1 or 2 bench guys to not be utterly worthless as well.

The starting 5 would also have to play like 38mpg, and that's again kinda my point. The core isn't bad, but the supporting cast is where the team is massively handicapped. I have little doubt that BBQ could manage a mediocre treadmill type record by playing them big minutes, but again, that's kinda my point. The team could get that kind of record, but it will not result in any real success.

Being able to manage a 37-43 win record is not impressive, as it would require all 3 of them taking noticeable steps forward, and then once they hit that win threshold, then what? They aren't all going to be able to take [b]another significant step to push them towards say 50 wins, for that you need to flesh out the rest of the team. So we'd need at least 1 or 2 of those SRP rookies to turn into like a 6th man level player, which again, unrealistic.

I don't think there are any real moves/trades that can be made with what we have to significantly improve the team to make that kind of win jump, assuming you mean the upcoming season. That's why I think getting a high pick this year is really the only non short sighted move we can make, so yeah, long term would be moving Jak.

If ATL wants to push for wins they could be an option, not sure what they have left of anymore or they'd be willing to give up that would be worth it for us. I think MEM would be an interesting target, we could trade Jak for Edey and maybe some seconds + filler. But not sure how much they'd be open to that since he'd basically be a backup to JJJ.

This team is just way too thin on overall talent, and with the talent we do have, we only have 1 player with an actual high ceiling. Hopefully that answered your question

First bolded, we both know that Darko isn't going to Nurse this team and play them like Nurse ran them through the mud for wins in the past. So essentially you're implying that even if our core took another leap, .500 isn't happening, which is by itself a fair point.

2nd bolded, yes let's please not have a Yak trade 2.0. I do think Chomche is a dark horse candidate himself on raising the ceiling for the team to a 50 win one, his actual ceiling is hard to tell tbh. His ceiling ranges from out of the league to an All NBA player.

Lastly, as for Atlanta, I just think they are one of the more desperate teams atm, and have no incentive to tank as they screwed up with trading with SAS much more than we did. I doubt Memphis is in a rush to get rid of Edey.

#1 Yeah pretty much, that's why I'm not super high on this core, and really just on Scottie, and to a lesser degree Gradey. RJ/IQ realistically don't have a massive amount of growth they can make, so unless all 3 of them absolutely smash into their ceilings, .500 on this team is impossible, barring any massive injuries/horrible tank jobs from other teams. Kind of how I think if we make the play in this year, it's more harm than good, as we are likely going to make it with a noticeably losing record. Defaulting into the play in is not success.

#2 Same, the last thing this team needs is throwing away more draft picks for mid tier players. Chomche I would skew closer to being out of the league, but that's more so based off his draft position and not a lot of information to go on about him. Physically speaking he looks great, his motor is nuts, but he looked aimless AF in the summer league. Completely understandable as to why, and that's why I think (mentioned this in his thread) that his success is all hinging on the mental aspect. He's barely been playing organized basketball for 2 years, going against guys who have been playing it since they were in single digits is a lot of ground to make up. But apparently he picks up on things quickly and he's a sponge, so hopefully we get lucky.

#3 That's a fair point, but it also means they don't have much to work with for a trade either. They have an unprotected 25 FRP from LAL, and a top 12 25 protected pick from the Kings. Both of which will likely be in the 15-20 range, so not a lot of value there. And if my memory of the rule is correct, they could only trade one of those, and after that they have a mediocre to bad 27 FRP or their own 28 FRP. And those wouldn't be of much use to us since our rebuild hinges on getting players now, since we've wasted 3 years of Scotties rookie contract, and IQ/RJ are both on their second contracts. We don't have the luxury of time, so we'd need prospects or good picks in the next year or two. Not sure where that comes from though.

[Vampirate]

Do you mean what can be done with this team, or what is a pie in the sky hope?

.450-.520 is like a 37-43 win range, as currently constructed, we'd need Scottie taking another step like 3rd team, RJ/IQ being fringe AS players, and Gradey to become like a 15+ppg player on 40ish percent from 3. Probably gonna need 1 or 2 bench guys to not be utterly worthless as well.

The starting 5 would also have to play like 38mpg, and that's again kinda my point. The core isn't bad, but the supporting cast is where the team is massively handicapped. I have little doubt that BBQ could manage a mediocre treadmill type record by playing them big minutes, but again, that's kinda my point. The team could get that kind of record, but it will not result in any real success.

Being able to manage a 37-43 win record is not impressive, as it would require all 3 of them taking noticeable steps forward, and then once they hit that win threshold, then what? They aren't all going to be able to take [b]another significant step to push them towards say 50 wins, for that you need to flesh out the rest of the team. So we'd need at least 1 or 2 of those SRP rookies to turn into like a 6th man level player, which again, unrealistic.

I don't think there are any real moves/trades that can be made with what we have to significantly improve the team to make that kind of win jump, assuming you mean the upcoming season. That's why I think getting a high pick this year is really the only non short sighted move we can make, so yeah, long term would be moving Jak.

If ATL wants to push for wins they could be an option, not sure what they have left of anymore or they'd be willing to give up that would be worth it for us. I think MEM would be an interesting target, we could trade Jak for Edey and maybe some seconds + filler. But not sure how much they'd be open to that since he'd basically be a backup to JJJ.

This team is just way too thin on overall talent, and with the talent we do have, we only have 1 player with an actual high ceiling. Hopefully that answered your question

First bolded, we both know that Darko isn't going to Nurse this team and play them like Nurse ran them through the mud for wins in the past. So essentially you're implying that even if our core took another leap, .500 isn't happening, which is by itself a fair point.

2nd bolded, yes let's please not have a Yak trade 2.0. I do think Chomche is a dark horse candidate himself on raising the ceiling for the team to a 50 win one, his actual ceiling is hard to tell tbh. His ceiling ranges from out of the league to an All NBA player.

Lastly, as for Atlanta, I just think they are one of the more desperate teams atm, and have no incentive to tank as they screwed up with trading with SAS much more than we did. I doubt Memphis is in a rush to get rid of Edey.

#1 Yeah pretty much, that's why I'm not super high on this core, and really just on Scottie, and to a lesser degree Gradey. RJ/IQ realistically don't have a massive amount of growth they can make, so unless all 3 of them absolutely smash into their ceilings, .500 on this team is impossible, barring any massive injuries/horrible tank jobs from other teams. Kind of how I think if we make the play in this year, it's more harm than good, as we are likely going to make it with a noticeably losing record. Defaulting into the play in is not success.

#2 Same, the last thing this team needs is throwing away more draft picks for mid tier players. Chomche I would skew closer to being out of the league, but that's more so based off his draft position and not a lot of information to go on about him. Physically speaking he looks great, his motor is nuts, but he looked aimless AF in the summer league. Completely understandable as to why, and that's why I think (mentioned this in his thread) that his success is all hinging on the mental aspect. He's barely been playing organized basketball for 2 years, going against guys who have been playing it since they were in single digits is a lot of ground to make up. But apparently he picks up on things quickly and he's a sponge, so hopefully we get lucky.

#3 That's a fair point, but it also means they don't have much to work with for a trade either. They have an unprotected 25 FRP from LAL, and a top 12 25 protected pick from the Kings. Both of which will likely be in the 15-20 range, so not a lot of value there. And if my memory of the rule is correct, they could only trade one of those, and after that they have a mediocre to bad 27 FRP or their own 28 FRP. And those wouldn't be of much use to us since our rebuild hinges on getting players now, since we've wasted 3 years of Scotties rookie contract, and IQ/RJ are both on their second contracts. We don't have the luxury of time, so we'd need prospects or good picks in the next year or two. Not sure where that comes from though.

The playin in the East last year was just pathetic, Atlanta made the playin winning 36 games, if anything else we just have to hope the ping pong balls bounce our way like theirs did. Would be nice. And i'm not even asking for the #1 pick, just a good one.

I think I read somewhere that Chomche played goalie in Soccer, that ability to cover space and swat balls at the rim will probably keep him in the league. I think his floor is Robert Williams from the defensive end. In terms offense, there was a play in Summer League where he got the rebound, turned on the jets and missed the dunk. He's basically a much younger, taller Siakam when you get down to it (not saying he's going to progress like Siakam but you get my point).

To your point #3, if we are trading Yak, and want to seriously tank for this year (can't out tank WAS/BLK though), I don't think we can be too greedy. Greed and waiting on the perfect deal kind of got us to the position we are in. Imo, any FRP + filler will do.

[Scase]

First bolded, we both know that Darko isn't going to Nurse this team and play them like Nurse ran them through the mud for wins in the past. So essentially you're implying that even if our core took another leap, .500 isn't happening, which is by itself a fair point.

2nd bolded, yes let's please not have a Yak trade 2.0. I do think Chomche is a dark horse candidate himself on raising the ceiling for the team to a 50 win one, his actual ceiling is hard to tell tbh. His ceiling ranges from out of the league to an All NBA player.

Lastly, as for Atlanta, I just think they are one of the more desperate teams atm, and have no incentive to tank as they screwed up with trading with SAS much more than we did. I doubt Memphis is in a rush to get rid of Edey.

#1 Yeah pretty much, that's why I'm not super high on this core, and really just on Scottie, and to a lesser degree Gradey. RJ/IQ realistically don't have a massive amount of growth they can make, so unless all 3 of them absolutely smash into their ceilings, .500 on this team is impossible, barring any massive injuries/horrible tank jobs from other teams. Kind of how I think if we make the play in this year, it's more harm than good, as we are likely going to make it with a noticeably losing record. Defaulting into the play in is not success.

#2 Same, the last thing this team needs is throwing away more draft picks for mid tier players. Chomche I would skew closer to being out of the league, but that's more so based off his draft position and not a lot of information to go on about him. Physically speaking he looks great, his motor is nuts, but he looked aimless AF in the summer league. Completely understandable as to why, and that's why I think (mentioned this in his thread) that his success is all hinging on the mental aspect. He's barely been playing organized basketball for 2 years, going against guys who have been playing it since they were in single digits is a lot of ground to make up. But apparently he picks up on things quickly and he's a sponge, so hopefully we get lucky.

#3 That's a fair point, but it also means they don't have much to work with for a trade either. They have an unprotected 25 FRP from LAL, and a top 12 25 protected pick from the Kings. Both of which will likely be in the 15-20 range, so not a lot of value there. And if my memory of the rule is correct, they could only trade one of those, and after that they have a mediocre to bad 27 FRP or their own 28 FRP. And those wouldn't be of much use to us since our rebuild hinges on getting players now, since we've wasted 3 years of Scotties rookie contract, and IQ/RJ are both on their second contracts. We don't have the luxury of time, so we'd need prospects or good picks in the next year or two. Not sure where that comes from though.

The playin in the East last year was just pathetic, Atlanta made the playin winning 36 games, if anything else we just have to hope the ping pong balls bounce our way like theirs did. Would be nice. And i'm not even asking for the #1 pick, just a good one.

I think I read somewhere that Chomche played goalie in Soccer, that ability to cover space and swat balls at the rim will probably keep him in the league. I think his floor is Robert Williams from the defensive end. In terms offense, there was a play in Summer League where he got the rebound, turned on the jets and missed the dunk. He's basically a much younger, taller Siakam when you get down to it (not saying he's going to progress like Siakam but you get my point).

To your point #3, if we are trading Yak, and want to seriously tank for this year (can't out tank WAS/BLK though), I don't think we can be too greedy. Greed and waiting on the perfect deal kind of got us to the position we are in. Imo, any FRP + filler will do.

The ATL outcome while fantastic, is not something I can put any stock in, a 3% chance is not something I'd want us to force the play in for

Chomche yeah, he's gonna be a weird one, should be fun to watch though!

As for the Jak trade, that's a good point, any positive asset at this point is likely good enough as the need for a top 5 pick this year is more needed than making sure we get a good pick we can use soon. With that said, I'd take either of the SAC/LAL 25 picks or their 28 one and filler, just to get this train to leave the station. Alternatively some choice "injuries" this year could result in the same bottoming out.

[YogurtProducer]

Tanking will be the least of our problems if we find out IQ and Barnes are actually mediocre or average players. Both are being paid handsomely, so if we end up being a bottom 6 team in the league again with little to no injuries, our cap sheet will be screwed even if we end up in the high lottery.


I’d rather us move up and beat draft odds than be so bad we should expect a top 5 pick

Well yeah, best case scenario for this team long term is being good enough to win the play-in, getting unlucky and losing the playin, and then getting a top 4 pick anyways. I think everyone on the board could be down with that

Reality is no matter WHAT we do there is a greater chance we pick outside the top 5 than within it

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Tanking will be the least of our problems if we find out IQ and Barnes are actually mediocre or average players. Both are being paid handsomely, so if we end up being a bottom 6 team in the league again with little to no injuries, our cap sheet will be screwed even if we end up in the high lottery.


I’d rather us move up and beat draft odds than be so bad we should expect a top 5 pick

Well yeah, best case scenario for this team long term is being good enough to win the play-in, getting unlucky and losing the playin, and then getting a top 4 pick anyways. I think everyone on the board could be down with that

Reality is no matter WHAT we do there is a greater chance we pick outside the top 5 than within it

Relax, it'll just be year one of the rebuild. Again.

[Clutch0z24]

if were tanking this year, it doesn't really bode well for scottie's development. He was an all-star last year, and is supposed to be the cornerstone building block. He's already in his 4th year... by this point, if he is who we expect him to be he should be carrying the team to wins...

Gotta look at it from a long term perspective and his development for his 5 year Max contract he just signed....He still has 1 more year under his last contract and his Max contract starts next year....We still have half a decade with Barnes being on the team....Hes going nowhere...No need to be in a rush for him to "Make the playoffs this year or hes a total bust" type of guy just yet...

What we need is another top of the line prospect for him to play with and be alongside him....We need another top end draft pick on the same or above level as Scottie Barnes is for this team to actually be a threat during Barnes Max contract years...That should be the goal of everyone and the front office...

We have 1 bad year, Go into next year with Lets say and hope for 1 of Flagg/Bailey/Harper/Edgecomb/Troare and start Barnes era the right way....Can't go wrong with any of them prospects imo...

I think this teams needs just 1 more player on that level to be where we were during the Lowry/DD era ...Winning 40+ games every year and being in the conversation in the playoffs...Thats more intriguing to me than trying to push Barnes to win here too early lose in the playoffs cause we are not talented enough and get a pick in the 15th area where they turn out to be players that are not on the team in 2-3 years times cause they are not that good...To push this current team we have to the playoffs and actually win some series in the playoffs you would need a prime LeBron James....And Barnes is not that type of player...Still a great player just will never be on that level...

So you’re admitting Barnes is not a star franchise player? This is my point… usually star players are already carrying their teams by the 4th season

He is not on the level of LBJ, Luka, Jokic, Shai, Giannis....But hes 23 years old still....Just cause hes not on that level now does not mean he can't reach a high peak in a few years during his max contract here...But the point is the best thing for everyone during Barnes 5 year contract is to lose this season...Get as high of a pick you can and grab one of these legit top players in this draft...

Then you have Barnes growing into a heck of a player, And you also have the insurance of another possible star player added to the team by the draft pick, Barrett/Quickley/Dick as pefect role players....You then set yourself up for a real possiblity at championship runs instead of fake first round losses every year....Barnes is a great player but yes he would need another top player by his side to win...Just like Tatum needed Brown...

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

Let's say Barnes regresses, instead of rocketing up stats wise this year. Well, that means he doesn't have a high ceiling. It also means we're probably not building around him. Unless the goal is the most mid team possible. He needs to be a future top five for this to make sense. Otherwise, wtf are we wasting out time.

It's a make or break season, the refusal to do this on his rookie contract is on the GM. A lot of these contracts look toxic if it goes bad.

[ConSarnit]

Let's say Barnes regresses, instead of rocketing up stats wise this year. Well, that means he doesn't have a high ceiling. It also means we're probably not building around him. Unless the goal in the most mid team possible. He needs to be a future top five for this to make sense. Otherwise, wtf are we wasting out time.

It's a make or break season, the refusal to do this on his rookie contract is on the GM. A lot of these contracts look toxic if it goes bad.

If Barnes regresses we are going to be forced into a full rebuild because we’ll suck. We’ll be stuck with his contract but that won’t matter much because we’ll be tanking. We can clear cap space for salary dumps by getting rid of Poeltl/Barrett/Olynyk or maybe IQ (depending on how he looks).

If Barnes regresses our salary situation won’t matter because we’ll be in the tank for 2-3 years. We should still be able to carve out moderate cap
space for salary dumps while the young guys develop and we ride our Barnes deal.