Retro Player of the Year 1975-76 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Julius Erving - 1st Team All-ABA. 1st Team All-Defense. MVP. Finals MVP. Erving swept all the awards and led his team to a dominant title putting up historic numbers. Sure the ABA was a weaker league but if this was done in the NBA, it would be one of the greatest seasons in NBA history. As it is, it's still well good enough to put him #1. Averaged 29.3/11.0/5.0 on 56.9 %TS (+5.2 rTS) in the RS then 34.7/12.6/4.9 on 61.0 %TS (+9.9 rTS) in the PS. Just an insane offensive explosion in the playoffs and he also brought it on defense with his off-ball excellence.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. MVP. The Lakers missed the playoffs but they had an incredibly unbalanced roster and the weird seeding cannot be ignored. The Lakers had a unique circumstance of having the 4th best record and 3rd best SRS in the Western Conference and still missed the PS so I won't hold it against Kareem nearly as much as I usually would for missing the PS. And the voters clearly thought highly of him awarding him the MVP and by a comfortable margin at that. Averaged 27.7/16.9/5.0 on 56.7 %TS (+6.3 rTS) and led the league in both rebounding and blocked shots.

3. Dave Cowens - 2nd Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Led the championship Celtics on both ends of the court with Hondo declining in both minutes and production. As usual, a stalwart defender and rebounder while scoring a decent amount on average efficiency and passing well. Averaged 19.0/16.0/4.2 on 50.8 %TS (+0.4 rTS) in the RS then 21.0/16.4/4.6 on 49.8 %TS (-0.4 rTS) in the PS.

4. Bob McAdoo - Really strong scoring season once again and led the team well into the 2nd round where they lost to the champs. Averaged 31.1/12.4/4.0 on 54.2 %TS (+3.8 rTS) in the RS then 28.0/14.2/3.2 on 50.2 %TS (+0.3 rTS) in the PS.

5. Rick Barry - 1st Team All-NBA. Just a fantastic all-around player following his title season. His scoring numbers are really down across the board and his team faltered in the 2nd round to the Suns who went on to lose the Finals. Still, I think Barry's all-around game lands him just on the back end of this ballot. Not sure I would have anyone remaining ahead of him especially he did improve in the PS. Averaged 21.0/6.1/6.1 on 48.3 %TS (-2.1 rTS) in the RS then 24.0/6.5/6.5 on 48.9 %TS (-1.8 rTS) in the PS.

OPOY

1. Julius Erving - Great combo of scoring and playmaking.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Great scoring with competent playmaking for a big.

3. Bob McAdoo - Just a bit inferior to Kareem.

DPOY

1. Dave Cowens - Anchored the #3 defense in the RS then did an even better job in the PS.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Led the league in blocks and defensive rebounds. Seems to have large impact.

3. Artis Gilmore - Might change this pic but he seems like an excellent choice. Team was #2 on defense and he's still an elite rebounder and paint protector.

[ShaqAttac]

KAREEM
missed the playoffs but hes still the best. 27 points with great d and big impact.

COWENS

got his team another chip with great d and great o. played great in the finals too.
DOCTOR J
tbh kd and eni make good args that the aba was weak. still got mvp and owned everyone in the ABA.

WESTPHAL
carried team to finals and took bos to 6. Also beat barry and the best team to get there.

BOB MCADOO
took champs to 6 and dropped 30 and also great at d.

[Dutchball97]

Player of the Year
1. Julius Erving -

2. Artis Gilmore -

3. Dave Cowens -

4. Bob McAdoo -

5. George Gervin -

Bit curious if you left Kareem off your ballot on purpose or by accident.

Completely on purpose. He missed the play-offs. That isn't to say all the guys on my ballot would've been able to do a better job in Kareem's position but I'm not judging these players in a vacuum. I'm looking at who I think had the best season and since I see the regular season as a qualifying round for the post-season instead of the main part of the season others judge it as, missing the post-season is a 99% guarantee a player will not make my ballot.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd disagree but on the flipside I think it's completely nonsensical to have someone who misses the post-season at #1. Like I don't see a possible argument at all so I've been really confused at this thread so far.

[ardee]

PoY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: approaching his peak, probably the only year with the possible exception of 2005 that the best player in the league missed the Playoffs. Crazy to think he went up another level in '77 given how thoroughly dominant he was this year.

2. Julius Erving: on paper the best season of anyone in the world this year but I can't ignore how his production suffered when he switched leagues. I'm still ranking him 2 though because even if he played in the NBA and was only able to match his '77 production, I'd still take him over anyone besides Kareem.

3. Artis Gilmore: very efficient for his time and still anchored a 2nd-ranked defense. Just very solid two-way impact.

4. Bob McAdoo: not too far off his peak and led the Braves to a top 5 offense.

5. Dave Cowens: won the title as pretty clearly the best player on his team now, given Hondo's decline. Overall though I just think Gilmore and McAdoo had more consistent superstar level impact.

OPoY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Bob McAdoo

DPoY

1. Dave Cowens
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Artis Gilmore

[Cavsfansince84]

Completely on purpose. He missed the play-offs. That isn't to say all the guys on my ballot would've been able to do a better job in Kareem's position but I'm not judging these players in a vacuum. I'm looking at who I think had the best season and since I see the regular season as a qualifying round for the post-season instead of the main part of the season others judge it as, missing the post-season is a 99% guarantee a player will not make my ballot.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who'd disagree but on the flipside I think it's completely nonsensical to have someone who misses the post-season at #1. Like I don't see a possible argument at all so I've been really confused at this thread so far.

I mean I'm not saying its altogether crazy to do it that way and I would agree that guys who lead teams to titles or finals deserve major bonus points in this type of of a vote. It's just that at the end of the day its prime Kareem who also won mvp in the rs so its a bit surprising to see him completely off of a ballot. It's your call though so I'm not really criticizing how you voted.

[Narigo]

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar- best player in the regular season but missed the playoffs because his supporting cast wassnt very good. But there is a giantic gap between Kareem and the second best player.

2. Dave Cowens- led his team to title with two way impact. Arguably his best seasaon.

3. Bob Mcadoo- Could be number 2. But Cowens was better in the playoffs

4. Bob Lanier- Also could be number 2 but missed quite a few games. Played very well in the playoffs

5.Paul Westphal- Hard decision here as imo as there werent many players that stood out to me. I could put Barry here but his team was very deep and they lost to the Suns. Westphal and Adams were underdogs and they made to the finals

[IlikeSHAIguys]

1 - Dave Cowens
2 - Kareem
3 - Erving
4 - Bob Mcadoo
5 - Artis Gilmore

It feels kind of wrong to me that no one has Cowens 1. I guess this will be about Kareem or Erving but if the issue with Erving is the ABA is weak and the issue with Kareem is his team didn't win enough then maybe the guy who won the NBA deserves a little love? I don't really know if he should be 1 but I feel he should at least have a 1st place vote so I'll give it to him.

Totally get leaving Kareem off but I like the idea that the best player can still be seen as the best even if his team isn't good. I see votes which go well kareem was the best but he didnt win basically. So I guess i'll go he didnt win but he was the best. Erving was still pretty good in the NBA so I think him being out of the top 5 is kind of weird? He won an MVP and he won a ring so I don't understand leaving him completely off.

Artis Gilmore seems like the 2nd best dude in the ABA and he did okay in the NBA so I'm not gonna discount him alot. McAdoo scores lots and is maybe the best defender on his team so he should some get a little love.

Defensive Player of the year
1 - Cowens
2 - Kareem
3 - Artis Gilmore

Offensive Player of the Year
1 - Julius Erving
2 - Kareem
3 - Bob Mcadoo

[One_and_Done]

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar- best player in the regular season but missed the playoffs because his supporting cast wassnt very good. But there is a giantic gap between Kareem and the second best player.

2. Dave Cowens- led his team to title with two way impact. Arguably his best seasaon.

3. Bob Mcadoo- Could be number 2. But Cowens was better in the playoffs

4. Bob Lanier- Also could be number 2 but missed quite a few games. Played very well in the playoffs

5.Paul Westphal- Hard decision here as imo as there werent many players that stood out to me. I could put Barry here but his team was very deep and they lost to the Suns. Westphal and Adams were underdogs and they made to the finals

No Erving? Really?

[trex_8063]

Been awhile for me, but I'll try to get in a quick one here....

Player of the Year
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Yeah, I know they didn't make the playoffs, though only because of a screwing ps structure where the top two in each division gets a trip regardless of record (than a fifth team in each conference is chosen based on record). Consequently, the Lakers were left out despite having a better record than TWO of the teams that were given a playoff berth in their conference (had a better SRS than either, as well). Anyway, 40-42 with +0.18 SRS is not too shabby with a fairly anemic supporting cast.
Kareem is crushing the league almost across the board, going for 28/17/5/4 per game on excellent shooting efficiency [+6.3% rTS]. I've scouted some of Kareem in the '76 and '77 seasons, and his defense looks legit big-time, so I don't think his league-best 4.1 bpg and league-best 13.5 drpg is all smoke and mirrors, given I saw him jump out and hedge nicely on a couple pnr's, too. That's remarkable, given the load he has to carry on offense, as well.
And he doesn't miss a game, fwiw.

2. Julius Erving - Was a tough call between him and Kareem for #1. This is his peak year, imo, and he just crushes the [imo, weaker] ABA, seemingly carrying his team in every way imaginable on their way to an ABA title.

3. Dave Cowens - Havlicek is in decline, and Cowens is now very clearly "the man" in Boston at this point. Being 'the man' on the title-winning team I know, for some of you, gives him a straight path to #1 or #2 on your ballot, but I don't quite work that way. I simply cannot get over how MUCH better [as players, in a vacuum] I think Kareem and Erving were this year. But I'm willing to entertain 3rd for Dave. Really nice two-way player: gives you some decent scoring, spreading the floor from the C position, good passing, the rebounding, the hustle plays, the physical post defense, etc.

4. Bob McAdoo - Just look what this guy does on offense: leading the league in scoring (a league that contains Kareem) at >31 ppg on +3.8% rTS, with >3 apg, too (for a pretty decent offense). His game fell off a bit in the playoffs, though he's matched up against Dave Cowens for most of that sample.

5. Artis Gilmore - He's now the centerpiece [more or less] of the offense, averaging like 24+ ppg [rs and playoffs], yet still anchoring the #2 defense in the ABA, too. One year off his peak season [imo].

Other guys I seriously considered to round out my ballot: Bob Lanier, Elvin Hayes, Bobby Jones, Rick Barry, Paul Westphal, and James Silas (if not for the injury in the ps, was intriguing). I'm thinking hard on Bob Lanier. The 18 missed rs games troubles me within a season where he was definitely not as dominant as his '74 campaign; but I could still entertain him for my #5 spot, given his big playoff run this year.......I'll think on that.


I'll try to edit in OPOY and DPOY picks later, but don't hold things up on my account.

[Narigo]

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar- best player in the regular season but missed the playoffs because his supporting cast wassnt very good. But there is a giantic gap between Kareem and the second best player.

2. Dave Cowens- led his team to title with two way impact. Arguably his best seasaon.

3. Bob Mcadoo- Could be number 2. But Cowens was better in the playoffs

4. Bob Lanier- Also could be number 2 but missed quite a few games. Played very well in the playoffs

5.Paul Westphal- Hard decision here as imo as there werent many players that stood out to me. I could put Barry here but his team was very deep and they lost to the Suns. Westphal and Adams were underdogs and they made to the finals

No Erving? Really?

Im doing NBA only

[One_and_Done]

Thing is, the ABA existed. What would this project be like if I said 'oh, I'm only going to do ABA players during the 2 league era'?

[LA Bird]

Player of the Year
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Artis Gilmore
4. Dave Cowens
5. Nate Thurmond

Fully healthy Kareem is back at #1. Led the league in rebounds and blocks (the latter by miles) on top of his usual offensive greatness. The Lakers missed the playoffs but that was just seeding rules and nothing more. It's like if the NBA arbitrary decided there can only be one playoff team per state and we drop 03 Duncan from POY if the Spurs had lost tiebreaker with the Mavs. Dr J had just about as good a season in the ABA as one could have but I just don't think he's as great of a player as near peak Kareem.

Despite a massive dropoff from -6.4 to -1.4 rDRtg, the Colonels were still second defensively and have a similar defense to the Celtics. Gilmore appears to be giving less effort in the regular season looking at his block numbers but he averaged 3.6 blocks (and 1.1 steals) in the playoffs so I guess he can ramp it back up if necessary? This was his peak scoring season (24.6 RS, 24.2 PO) and he shot an absurd 69% TS efficiency in a close series against the Nuggets. There is the argument for Cowens because of his passing and him being the clear leader on an NBA championship team with the decline of Havlicek but I don't like the dropoff after the departure of Silas the following season.

In a season with no real standouts, my homer pick for #5 is the leader of the Miracle at Richfield. Cavs have the best SRS in the East (2nd overall), with clear in-season impact from Thurmond (-2.8 before, +3.9 after trade, +6.7 net), and they gave the eventual champion Celtics their closest series. Cowens came off career high 24.5 ppg series on 47% shooting against McAdoo but was reduced to 18.0 ppg on 39% FG vs Thurmond. I know low minutes off the bench is an immediate DQ for most people but the impact is evident (like 86 Walton) and he was a strong starter in the most important series after Chones was out. If they had made the Finals, Thurmond would likely have shut down Adams too.

Guess I also have to address Barry considering the Warriors are, the most dominant team in NBA history by SRS z score. One of the arguments used for Barry last season was his outlier scoring but now he's gone from 30.6 ppg on 50.9% TS to 21.0 ppg on 48.3% TS. He provided value as a big forward who can pass and drive but unless the argument is that Barry improved his playmaking significantly between 75 and 76, I don't see how he is close to making up for the huge drop in scoring. If we compare the Warriors relative offense and defense in surrounding seasons, this was their worst offensive season. The difference was on defense.

Warriors O/D
1974: +3.1 / +0.7
1975: +2.7 / -0.4
1976: +2.3 / -3.8
1977: +2.9 / 0.0

The one saving grace for Barry is his series against the Suns where he had one of his best NBA scoring performances but he fumbled it himself in G7 because he was salty his teammates didn't like him.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 15 voters: Djoker, AEnigma, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, Penbeast, LA Bird, Ardee, One_and_Done, capfan33, ShaqAttac, ILikeShaiGuys, trex8063, OhayoKD, Narigo, and trelos. Penbeast, LA Bird, OhayoKD, trex8063, One_and_Done, Narigo, and ShaqAttac abstained from voting for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1975-76 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Julius Erving

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Julius Erving  4   3   0    29   0.725
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  1   4   0    17   0.425
3. Bob McAdoo   1   1   3    11    0.275
4. Rick Barry   1   0   3   8    0.200
5. Calvin Murphy  1   0   0    5    0.125
6. Tiny Archibald   0   0   1    1    0.025
6. Paul Westphal   0   0   1    1    0.025

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Dave Cowens

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Dave Cowens    5   1   2    30    0.750
2. Elvin Hayes    3   0   0    15    0.375
3. Artis Gilmore    0   2   6    12    0.300
4. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  0   3   0    9   0.225
5. Wes Unseld  0   1   0    3    0.075
5. Bobby Jones  0   1   0    3    0.075

Retro Player of the Year — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (6)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 8 4 2 0 0   118   0.787
2. Julius Erving  6  5  3  0  0   110   0.733
3. Dave Cowens  1  5  4  3  1   75   0.500
4. Artis Gilmore  0  1  5  0  2   34   0.227
5. Bob McAdoo  0  0  1  7  4   30    0.200
6. Rick Barry   0  0  0  1  5   8   0.053
7. Bob Lanier  0  0  0  2  0   6   0.040
8. Paul Westphal   0  0  0  1  1   4   0.027
9. Bobby Jones   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.020
10. George Gervin   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.007
10. Nate Thurmond   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.007

In the prior project, there were 18 votes, with Dr. Positivity and penbeast overlapping. With their prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 31 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Julius Erving  19  8  3  0  0   261   0.842
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 11 15 3 1 0   233   0.752
3. Dave Cowens  1  6  9  9  4   128   0.413
4. Bob McAdoo  0  1  9  10  7   89    0.287
5. Artis Gilmore  0  1  7  3  10   61   0.197
6. Rick Barry   0  0  0  3  7   16   0.052
7. Bob Lanier  0  0  0  2  0   6   0.019
8. Paul Westphal   0  0  0  1  1   4   0.013
9. Bobby Jones   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.010
9. David Thompson   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.010
11. George Gervin   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.003
11. Nate Thurmond   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.003

1977 thread will open shortly.

[trex_8063]

Player of the Year
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Artis Gilmore
4. Dave Cowens
5. Nate Thurmond


In a season with no real standouts, my homer pick for #5 is the leader of the Miracle at Richfield. Cavs have the best SRS in the East (2nd overall), with clear in-season impact from Thurmond (-2.8 before, +3.9 after trade, +6.7 net), and they gave the eventual champion Celtics their closest series. Cowens came off career high 24.5 ppg series on 47% shooting against McAdoo but was reduced to 18.0 ppg on 39% FG vs Thurmond. I know low minutes off the bench is an immediate DQ for most people but the impact is evident (like 86 Walton) and he was a strong starter in the most important series after Chones was out. If they had made the Finals, Thurmond would likely have shut down Adams too.

I imagine you knew going in that this pick would draw some surprise and pushback from SOMEONE here.
Nate Thurmond averaged <18 mpg, while maintaining PER of 12.0, a WS/48 <.100, and a BPM <0. While box-based metrics don't do a good job of capturing the value of someone like Thurmond, the <18 mpg is still pretty damning in terms of balloting the top 5 for the year (even if ALL of those things do, admittedly, pick up in the playoffs [though still <29 mpg there].......which, based upon SRS, they didn't have a particularly good playoff showing as a team, fwiw).

wrt to the before/after picture in Cleveland, it might be noted that the "before" is a mere 17 games (weird slow start type things happen sometimes). Also worth noting that Austin Carr missed 16 of those same 17 games, too (and only one game thereafter). If it wasn't just a "slow start", maybe it was HIS presence that fueled the turnaround; or at least contributed to it. More than likely it was a combination of all three (Nate, Austin, coincidentally timed poor start).
Having seen a little footage of Thurmond from this portion of his career, he looks like he's slowing down, and which is [perhaps??] statistically evidenced by his uptick in foul-rate (highest of his career to that point, highest among all rotational players in rs, higher than everyone except Russell in ps).

The Cavs this year feel very much like a "by committee" ensemble effort (with Thurmond being a very relevant contributor, for sure), though not even the best ensemble effort in the league this year (Warriors).

At any rate, "homer picks" aside, it feels a little like a slap in the face to players like Bob Lanier, Bobby Jones, Bob McAdoo, Rick Barry, Elvin Hayes, or perhaps Paul Westphal. Certainly I think any of them "stand out" more than Thurmond this year.