Retro Player of the Year 1976-77 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

AEnigma · Post #1 » by **AEnigma** » Thu Oct 3, 2024 4:31 pm

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1976-77.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 11:30AM EST on Monday, October 7th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Current Voter List

Spoiler:

Djoker · Post #2 » by **Djoker** » Thu Oct 3, 2024 4:48 pm

This is an interesting year.

Kareem v. Walton will be an interesting debate although I suspect Kareem will win. I also am leaning Kareem #1 Walton #2. Probably Erving #3 for a strong PS but after that it's pretty wide open.

Dutchball97 · Post #3 » by **Dutchball97** » Thu Oct 3, 2024 5:08 pm

Djoker wrote:This is an interesting year.

Kareem v. Walton will be an interesting debate although I suspect Kareem will win. I also am leaning Kareem #1 Walton #2. Probably Erving #3 for a strong PS but after that it's pretty wide open.

I doubt Kareem vs Walton will be much of a debate really. If Kareem can win without making the play-offs, he's definitely going to win this year as well. Might even be unanimous.

AEnigma · Post #4 » by **AEnigma** » Thu Oct 3, 2024 5:24 pm

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Bill Walton
2. Artis Gilmore
3. Bobby Jones

Walton has an all-time defensive season when he plays — and I am not going to penalise missed time when it still produces a title. It is a level of defensive excellence which will not be matched until at least 1985 (Eaton), and possibly not until defensive peak Hakeem in terms of overall court coverage. His defence in final few games of the Finals is particularly legendary.

AEnigma wrote:The 1977 Finals is one of the viscerally impressive individual defensive series I have seen, along with 1994 Sonics/Nuggets, 2003 Finals, 2004 Kings/Wolves, probably the 2004 eastern conference finals (harder to judge because the basketball was naturally ugly lol), and honestly maybe [2023]’s Lakers/Grizzlies series.

After Walton, the leaders of the top two defences round out the ballot; preference to Gilmore here because he played more minutes, had less overall defensive support (coaching counts too), and seems to more consistently be able to anchor a team’s defence.

Currently do not intend to vote on Offensive Player of the Year; I do not think Kareem should be unanimous, but I cannot clearly point to anyone belonging over him (Maravich and Barry would be the top contenders).

Player of the Year

1. Bill Walton
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bob Lanier
4. Julius Erving
5. Rick Barry

Not unanimous, no. Kareem will win, but I think Walton was very much on par with him (or at least was on par in the specific context of the Blazers), and Walton was the one who won the title in dominant fashion.

AEnigma wrote:The analogy which never fails to make me pause is that 1977/78 Kareem, perhaps playing at his most visually impressive level (granted, I liked his defence more in the 1974 games I have seen), is dwarfed in every “impact” indicator by Walton, the closest spiritual successor to Russell’s playstyle. And that can largely be a matter of team construction — are the 1962-64 Warriors better with Russell instead of Wilt, no, probably not — but it raises questions all the same.

The Pistons are again 6-12 without Lanier, but this time they win at a 49-win pace with him — despite what seems like a miserable overall environment.

AEnigma wrote:1977 was even more internally disastrous [than 1976 was], but thanks to what was probably Lanier’s second best season, the Pistons stayed relatively steady.
https://vault.si.com/vault/1977/02/28/moaning-and-winning-in-motown
A good read if you want to learn about maybe the most dysfunctional playoff team in league history.

Erving has a lesser season, and despite plenty of supporting talent, he does not secure a title or even any impressive wins (reaching the Finals with victories over the rapidly fading Celtics and over the happy-to-be-there baby Moses Rockets). All that is enough to push Erving back behind Lanier, although I still assess Erving as the league’s top perimetre player.

And then Barry secures another finish ahead of Gilmore for an overall more relevant regular season and postseason (complete with his typical offensive elevation).

One_and_Done · Post #5 » by **One_and_Done** » Thu Oct 3, 2024 6:32 pm

1. Kareem
2. Walton
3. Dr J

4. Gilmore
5. Gervin

Walton was awesome, but even though this is the one year he might have a shot at winning I have to go Kareem. Not only do I feel Kareem was the better player on a worse team, but Bill missed 17 games.

Dr J has a very underrated year here. He sacrificed his stats to help his dysfunctional team work, and the result was the Sixers team almost won the title despite having too many scorers.

Gilmore was just as good in 77 as 75 or 76 when he was top 3 for many ppl, his team was just horrific. Gervin is my #5. I think he did an incredible job to keep the Spurs in the playoffs without star James Silas, then he got even better the next year.

trelos6 · Post #6 » by **trelos6** » Thu Oct 3, 2024 8:48 pm

OPOY

1. Kareem Abdul Jabbar. 24.5 pp75 on +9.7 rTS%. Team rOrtg was +1.9. +5.25 OPIPM. Then there’s the playoffs. Kareem averaged a 30/16/4 on +14.9% with 1.3 steals and 3.8 blocks, going up against Bill Walton.

2.George Gervin. Hard to go past Gervin at 2. Spurs were a top 3 offense, and Gervin dropped 22.5 pp75 on +9.3 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +3. OPIPM of +2.78.

3. Calvin Murphy. The little guy continues to make my ballot. This is because Houston was again a +5 rOrtg team, leading the league in offense. Murphy could score, 18.9 pp75 +3.1rTS%, and now he had Moses helping with the offensive rebounds. Rudy Tomjanovich was also considered, these 2 played many years together and were both hugely efficient players. I tend to lean more toward Murphy being the initiator of the offense.

HM: Paul Westphal. A few other names considered. Lanier, Dr. J, Skywalker, heck even Bill Walton was great offensively. Westphal was the league leader in playmaking, IMO. Great blend of scoring and passing.

DPOY

1. Bill Walton. Anchored a top 5 defense, and then in the playoffs they were the best defensive team by quite some margin (of teams who played more than one series).

2. Bobby Jones. Nuggets were the league leading defense. Bobby Jones was the reason. He was pretty good in the 2 prior seasons, but I feel he really hit his stride post merger. I was a little tempted to give him the #1 spot, but Walton was undeniable.

3. Artis Gilmore. Anchored the #2 defense in the regular season.

HM: Elvin Hayes. The Big E had another great year defensively, though the Bullets were still a top 8 defense, you expect a little more from a team with Unseld and Hayes. Others considered were Kareem and Caldwell Jones.

POY

1.Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Peak Kareem. One of the greatest individual seasons of all time. +5.25 OPIPM, +2.86 DPIPM, overall +8.11 PIPM. 23.79 Wins Added. His team was pretty sub par, and he dragged them to the West finals, putting up big performance after big performance in the sweep.

2. Bill Walton. +2.25 OPIPM, +3.07 DPIPM, overall +5.32 PIPM. 15.78 Wins Added. Insane defensive activity, and brilliant offensive playmaking. Arguably a top 20 peak season of all time.

3. Bobby Jones. +1.86 OPIPM, +3.72 DPIPM, overall +5.57 PIPM. 14.23 Wins Added. Peak Bobby Jones. Does all the little things. Terrific 2 way play.

4. Julius Erving. +2.64 OPIPM, +1.1 DPIPM. Overall +3.74 PIPM. 15.54 Wins Added. Great 2 way player. Got his team to the finals where he played great.

5. Artis Gilmore. +1.94 OPIPM, +2.2 DPIPM, overall +4.14 PIPM. 13.59 Wins Added. Wasn’t as good as his ABA days, but still plenty of solid impact.

HM: Elvin Hayes. +1.38 OPIPM, +1.87 DPIPM. Overall +3.25 PIPM. 14.66 Wins Added

Post #7 » by **penbeast0** » Thu Oct 3, 2024 9:22 pm

Lakers were the best team in the RS but were swept by Walton and the Blazers after barely making it past the Warriors 4-3 in the first round. Kareem had another big year though.

Close behind the Lakers were Denver, Philly, Portland (the champs), Houston, and Washington. Bobby Jones led Denver to the best defense of the year with/despite Dan Issel at center though the headlines were going to David "the Skywalker" Thompson. Portland had a tougher time with Denver than with LA but prevailed 4-2. In the East, Philadelphia added Julius Erving to scorers George McGinnis, Doug Collins, and World B Free to make the finals. Houston added 21 year old Moses Malone who scored only 13.5/game with shooters Rudy Tomjanovich and Calvin Murphy but lost to Philly in the ECF. The Bullets were still led by Elvin Hayes and Wes Unseld.

Another step back but still with winning records were Golden State with Barry, Phil Smith, and Jamaal Wilkes; Detroit with Bob Lanier, Chicago with Artis Gilmore, San Antonio with Gervin, Kenon, and Billy Paultz, Boston where adding Sidney Wicks was widely panned, and Cleveland with no real stars but another strong coaching job by Bill Fitch (Thurmond is again backing up Jim Chones). Pete Maravich led the league in scoring on a losing Jazz team, Don Buse in assists for a losing Pacer squad. Losing Erving, the Nets were the worst team in the league.

1. Walton -- he beat all the other contenders head to head and had a lot of non-box score value
2. Kareem -- still the most talented player in the league though getting a rep as aloof and not a good locker room guy
3. Bobby Jones -- challenging Walton for best defender with 15 ppg, excellent efficiency, and good passing though minutes were a bit limited by his asthma condition. Didn't make 1st or 2nd team All-NBA.
4. Bob Lanier -- I'm not as impressed by his defense as some but always a strong, consistent scorer with one of the league's strongest carry jobs. Also didn't make 1st or 2nd team All-NBA but was up against Kareem and Walton!
5. Julius Erving -- hiding his light under a bushel a bit to try to fit in with the Sixers but still top 5 in Win Shares, Box Plus-Minus, and VORP . . . plus I really don't have anyone else that stood out from the crowd.

Dr Positivity · Post #8 » by **Dr Positivity** » Thu Oct 3, 2024 10:04 pm

I'm not voting Walton over arguable peak Kareem.

OhayoKD · Post #9 » by **OhayoKD** » Fri Oct 4, 2024 12:17 am

Dutchball97 wrote:
Djoker wrote:This is an interesting year.

Kareem v. Walton will be an interesting debate although I suspect Kareem will win. I also am leaning Kareem #1 Walton #2. Probably Erving #3 for a strong PS but after that it's pretty wide open.

I doubt Kareem vs Walton will be much of a debate really. If Kareem can win without making the play-offs, he's definitely going to win this year as well. Might even be unanimous.

Walton wasn't a factor in that POY though. Bill is pretty comfortably the strongest POY contender Kareem has faced: He boasts raw data no iteration of Kareem has ever matched, swept him head to head, resembles a player who racked up 9 POYs the previous decade, and led the best team in the strongest iteration of the league Kareem has played in.

I might vote for him myself honestly

OhayoKD · Post #10 » by **OhayoKD** » Fri Oct 4, 2024 12:18 am

trelos6 wrote:POY

1.Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Peak Kareem. One of the greatest individual seasons of all time. +5.25 OPIPM, +2.86 DPIPM, overall +8.11 PIPM. 23.79 Wins Added. His team was pretty sub par, and he dragged them to the NBA finals, putting up big performance after big performance in the sweep.

2. Bill Walton. +2.25 OPIPM, +3.07 DPIPM, overall +5.32 PIPM. 15.78 Wins Added. Insane defensive activity, and brilliant offensive playmaking. Arguably a top 20 peak season of all time.

PIPM should not be playing any role with how you are comparing Kareem to Walton

One_and_Done · Post #11 » by **One_and_Done** » Fri Oct 4, 2024 12:33 am

Honestly I wonder if I'm being unfair in putting Walton over Erving.

Post #12 » by **penbeast0** » Fri Oct 4, 2024 12:50 am

trelos6 wrote:...
1.Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Peak Kareem. One of the greatest individual seasons of all time. +5.25 OPIPM, +2.86 DPIPM, overall +8.11 PIPM. 23.79 Wins Added. His team was pretty sub par, and he dragged them to the NBA finals, putting up big performance after big performance in the sweep....

Actually, LA made it through one round of the playoffs then got swept by Portland in the WCF which was the second round for them as they had a 1st round bye.

And we have a question like those for Warriors Wilt . . . when you play incredibly but all your teammates play below their abilities, should you be blamed for not elevating their games? Especially when your competition isn't putting up equal numbers but is arguably doing more to maximize the potential of their teammates. This ties in with Kareem's locker room rep pre-Magic; Magic was credited by a lot of the beat reporters with pulling Kareem out of his shell and connecting him with his team more.

OhayoKD · Post #13 » by **OhayoKD** » Fri Oct 4, 2024 1:04 am

penbeast0 wrote:Lakers were the best team in the RS but were swept by Walton and the Blazers after barely making it past the Warriors 4-3 in the first round.

This is framed like a bad thing but that Warriors core...

-> was 4th in the league in srs that year
-> an all-time srs outlier the previous year before coming a game short of the finals
-> was 4th in srs the year before that before sweeping a Washington juggernaut

That's a pretty good result with a diminished iteration of a 30-win cast

Cavsfansince84 · Post #14 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Fri Oct 4, 2024 1:21 am

penbeast0 wrote:
Actually, LA made it through one round of the playoffs then got swept by Portland in the WCF which was the second round for them as they had a 1st round bye.

And we have a question like those for Warriors Wilt . . . when you play incredibly but all your teammates play below their abilities, should you be blamed for not elevating their games? Especially when your competition isn't putting up equal numbers but is arguably doing more to maximize the potential of their teammates. This ties in with Kareem's locker room rep pre-Magic; Magic was credited by a lot of the beat reporters with pulling Kareem out of his shell and connecting him with his team more.

This to me is the only real chink in Kareem's armor as a player or worth criticizing him for. More so when we compare him to MJ, LeBron and Russell in other projects. I think in terms of two way impact he is probably slightly better than MJ and LeBron from an individual standpoint but I don't think he quite measures up in terms of leadership.

OhayoKD · Post #15 » by **OhayoKD** » Fri Oct 4, 2024 1:33 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
Actually, LA made it through one round of the playoffs then got swept by Portland in the WCF which was the second round for them as they had a 1st round bye.

And we have a question like those for Warriors Wilt . . . when you play incredibly but all your teammates play below their abilities, should you be blamed for not elevating their games? Especially when your competition isn't putting up equal numbers but is arguably doing more to maximize the potential of their teammates. This ties in with Kareem's locker room rep pre-Magic; Magic was credited by a lot of the beat reporters with pulling Kareem out of his shell and connecting him with his team more.

This to me is the only real chink in Kareem's armor as a player or worth criticizing him for. More so when we compare him to MJ, LeBron and Russell in other projects. I think in terms of two way impact he is probably slightly better than MJ and LeBron from an individual standpoint but I don't think he quite measures up in terms of leadership.

The idea Jordan was less problematic off the court should not be taken remotely seriously lol. Arguing Mj over Kareem as a leader is a joke

Cavsfansince84 · Post #16 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Fri Oct 4, 2024 1:38 am

OhayoKD wrote:The idea Jordan was less problematic off the court should not be taken remotely seriously lol. Arguing Mj over Kareem as a leader is a joke

I'm not talking about off the court. MJ for all his faults I still think tended to forge a certain mindset in teammates that got them on board. Is it possible that if you remove Phil/Tex/Bach that his style still works? idk but as someone who saw tons of MJ's games from the 80's and 90's I think he was a pretty good leader overall. I think Kareem's style worked great when he had Oscar and Magic as his pg. I mean you are free to disagree with me on this but I'm not convinced you know as much as you are portraying on this topic.

OhayoKD · Post #17 » by **OhayoKD** » Fri Oct 4, 2024 1:55 am

Cavsfansince[/quote]e84 wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:The idea Jordan was less problematic off the court should not be taken remotely seriously lol. Arguing Mj over Kareem as a leader is a joke

I'm not talking about off the court. MJ for all his faults I still think tended to forge a certain mindset in teammates that got them on board.

Fascinating how that mindset only started working with Jackson and Pippen and went disastrously without either:

Spoiler:

Last I checked Jordan has zero titles without either while Jackson has 5 titles without him. Kareem actually won without Magic and has won with multiple coaches but somehow someway Jordan winning less evidences better leadership than Kareem winning more

Is it possible that if you remove Phil/Tex/Bach that his style still works? idk but as someone who saw tons of MJ's games from the 80's and 90's I think he was a pretty good leader overall.

And what did you "see" in these games that proves Jordan is a comparable, never mind better leader? Was it him giving gifts to scorekeepers who his teammates say would give him their stats, telling Jackson he needed to keep winning scoring titles, arguing with scorekeepers over triple doubles, punching his teammates, trading them when they took too many shots, beefing with the players he traded his teammates for...because he took too many shots, destroying the confidence of a draft pick he picked #1?

Getting tired of this groupthink that toxic fake "alpha"-ness is somehow a positive leadership quality in basketball when more tempered folks consistently do better in all fields, including basketball. When the bulls won, Pippen was the floor-general, and the Zen-master is the only guy of the three with a track-record of championships outside of that particular context. Jordan had real power once in Washington. How did that leadership go?

I mean you are free to disagree with me on this but I'm not convinced you know as much as you are portraying on this topic.

It's not about knowledge, it's about not burying your head in the sand. No one here can actually provide evidence for Jordan's leadership positives that does not exist for Kareem. There is an abundance of negative evidence for Jordan that also does not exist for Kareem. Thus, the claim "jordan was a better leader" is unserious.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #18 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Fri Oct 4, 2024 2:09 am

OhayoKD wrote:And what did you "see" in these games that proves Jordan is a comparable, never mind better leader? Was it him giving gifts to scorekeepers who his teammates say would give him their stats, telling Jackson he needed to keep winning scoring titles, arguing with scorekeepers over triple doubles, punching his teammates, trading them when they took too many shots, beefing with the players he traded his teammates for...because he took too many shots, destroying the confidence of a draft pick he picked #1?

Getting tired of this groupthink that toxic fake "alpha"-ness is somehow a positive leadership quality in basketball when more tempered folks consistently do better in all fields, including basketball. When the bulls won, Pippen was the floor-general, and the Zen-master is the only guy of the three with a track-record of championships outside of that particular context. Jordan had real power once in Washington. How did that leadership go?

*shrug* I said nothing of alphaness in any shape or form nor have I ever relied on it as a simple way to measure leadership or intangibles. I'm not even go into it here tbh but suffice to say if you watched a guy play bb for 10-12 years as much as I did you get a pretty good idea of who they are as a player or their personality on a court. So I'm not going to write out some 1000 word reply that you'll reply to in whatever manner. I know where you stand on MJ on most things. We can just go on living with different opinions on this.

OhayoKD · Post #19 » by **OhayoKD** » Fri Oct 4, 2024 2:19 am

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:And what did you "see" in these games that proves Jordan is a comparable, never mind better leader? Was it him giving gifts to scorekeepers who his teammates say would give him their stats, telling Jackson he needed to keep winning scoring titles, arguing with scorekeepers over triple doubles, punching his teammates, trading them when they took too many shots, beefing with the players he traded his teammates for...because he took too many shots, destroying the confidence of a draft pick he picked #1?

Getting tired of this groupthink that toxic fake "alpha"-ness is somehow a positive leadership quality in basketball when more tempered folks consistently do better in all fields, including basketball. When the bulls won, Pippen was the floor-general, and the Zen-master is the only guy of the three with a track-record of championships outside of that particular context. Jordan had real power once in Washington. How did that leadership go?

*shrug* I said nothing of alphaness in any shape or form nor have I ever relied on it as a simple way to measure leadership or intangibles. I'm not even go into it here tbh

You relied on nothing and said nothing. You have no way to backup your assertion because it's an indefensible one, Same reason you refuse to engage in any of the points brought up.

but suffice to say if you watched a guy play bb for 10-12 years as much as I did you get a pretty good idea

But you don't, which is why none of this was factored in:

Was it him giving gifts to scorekeepers who his teammates say would give him their stats, telling Jackson he needed to keep winning scoring titles, arguing with scorekeepers over triple doubles, punching his teammates, trading them when they took too many shots, beefing with the players he traded his teammates for...because he took too many shots, destroying the confidence of a draft pick he picked #1?

You are arguing from ignorance. Baffling you would double-down.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #20 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Fri Oct 4, 2024 2:38 am

OhayoKD wrote:
Cavsfansince84 wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:And what did you "see" in these games that proves Jordan is a comparable, never mind better leader? Was it him giving gifts to scorekeepers who his teammates say would give him their stats, telling Jackson he needed to keep winning scoring titles, arguing with scorekeepers over triple doubles, punching his teammates, trading them when they took too many shots, beefing with the players he traded his teammates for...because he took too many shots, destroying the confidence of a draft pick he picked #1?

Getting tired of this groupthink that toxic fake "alpha"-ness is somehow a positive leadership quality in basketball when more tempered folks consistently do better in all fields, including basketball. When the bulls won, Pippen was the floor-general, and the Zen-master is the only guy of the three with a track-record of championships outside of that particular context. Jordan had real power once in Washington. How did that leadership go?

*shrug* I said nothing of alphaness in any shape or form nor have I ever relied on it as a simple way to measure leadership or intangibles. I'm not even go into it here tbh

You relied on nothing and said nothing. You have no way to backup your assertion because it's an indefensible one, Same reason you refuse to engage in any of the points brought up.
but suffice to say if you watched a guy play bb for 10-12 years as much as I did you get a pretty good idea

But you don't, which is why none of this was factored in:
Was it him giving gifts to scorekeepers who his teammates say would give him their stats, telling Jackson he needed to keep winning scoring titles, arguing with scorekeepers over triple doubles, punching his teammates, trading them when they took too many shots, beefing with the players he traded his teammates for...because he took too many shots, destroying the confidence of a draft pick he picked #1?

You are arguing from ignorance. Baffling you would double-down.

You know what I find kind of funny/ironic about your general posting style is that its very much like MJ's leadership style but you just can't see it. All the criticism of him having an alpha mentality and bullying others is very much how you come across with how you post and interact with people on here. Just food for thought.. have a nice night bro.