Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets

[HerSports85]

this team has had a fundamental sea change. it will not be able to operate as it did the last 2 years and will have to find it's identity. that will take time and who knows how it will turn out.

The identity was defense and offensive rebounding i.e., Mitch and iHart (and to a lesser extent Josh Hart).

They couldn't keep iHart.

Mitch's recovery isn't going as planned and he likely won't play until January or February.

That was the sea change.

Flipping Randle for KAT has no effect on that identit. Randle didn't defend and his impact on the offensive board was meager and inconsequential.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

There was no move that was going to bring back iHart or accelerate Mitch's recovery let alone provide certainty on his timeline. They were the identity of the team last year (defense and offensive rebounding).

Having Randle wouldn't address any of those things either.

The Knicks had to trade Randle for KAT.

What really hurts is losing Divo.

if anything though Deuce performance last night really shows he could really break out with more usage.

[3toheadmelo]

Neither does Randle.

The difference is that KAT is a 7-foot 40% 3-point shooter who spaces the floor and converts at an elite level, while Randle is at best a neutra floor spacer, if not someone defenses can sag off of.

KAT might not be a plus defender at the 5 but his length at least gives him a chance to contest. Randle has been awful on defense for the last 3 seasons and how he played as a 5 on losing teams half a decade ago (not to mention often off the bench) is fairly irrelevant today.

The Timberwolves never got past the 1st round with KAT at C.

They never had talent besides that one year with Jimmy where he got hurt - they were the 3rd seed in the West for most of the season. Unless you believe Wiggins and D'Lo are a formidable supporting cast. All the data suggests that KAT was elevating the team despite his defensive limitations and that its the supporting cast around him that was hurting them.

Which data show that he was elevating the team in the playoffs?

[mpharris36]

There was no move that was going to bring back iHart or accelerate Mitch's recovery let alone provide certainty on his timeline. They were the identity of the team last year (defense and offensive rebounding).

Having Randle wouldn't address any of those things either.

The Knicks had to trade Randle for KAT.

What really hurts is losing Divo.

if anything though Deuce performance last night really shows he could really break out with more usage.

It's a battle every single day with dyslexia

[Gravy]

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He was ballin out I wanted him to take all the shots over those other scrubs in garbage time.

[Deeeez Knicks]

i would like to find a big player that slides og back to 3 and bridges back to 2. i don't think relying on og to play the 4 longterm is the solution, even though i think it'll work fine for now

Prescious looked pretty decent, and had some really nice stretches last year. He may be able to fill that role a bit.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

The Timberwolves never got past the 1st round with KAT at C.

They never had talent besides that one year with Jimmy where he got hurt - they were the 3rd seed in the West for most of the season. Unless you believe Wiggins and D'Lo are a formidable supporting cast. All the data suggests that KAT was elevating the team despite his defensive limitations and that its the supporting cast around him that was hurting them.

Which data show that he was elevating the team in the playoffs?

He was positive this year.


2022-2023 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative, even Ant.
2021-2022 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative
2017-2018 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative


At one point, Jalen Brunson was -25.2 net with the Mavs in one of their 2 playoff runs. Lower seeds get cooked and everyone is negative.

[3toheadmelo]

We are in the same division with the Sixers and Celtics, playing Randle at the 5 until whenever Maybe Mitch is back would put us in a hole right out of the gate. Also, the guy everyone wanted back in IHart had a 128.2 DRTG in the playoffs last year.

You can't compare something a player hasn't really done to a guy that has done it, the Wolves were 13th defensively the last year KAT played C, and that was with Russell as his PG. I don't think anyone is expecting us to have a top 3 defense on the season but as long as the wings are healthy we should be able to get into the top 10. Randle at C wasn't going to work, they knew it and traded him for a guy that we know can play both the 4 and 5.

It doesn't translate into winning basketball is my point. Every year he played C, they either missed the playoffs or was a 1st round exit. We have all of the data in the world that show why it never worked.

He went to the playoffs 2 times as a center, I mean he's played in the playoffs more than Randle despite being in the league 1 year less. The two times he played as a C, they were going against the 65-17 Rockets, and the 56-26 Grizz, they were a 7th and 8th seed, those weren't going to be competitive series. And going by the splits, he had 1 positive as a PF, and 1 negative, which is the same as Randles 2 years in the playoffs. So, shouldn't we be happy we got someone that's a better PF, while also being able to be a 5?

The fact he can do both is what's important, he can play the 4 or 5, he will hold the fort until Maybe Mitch gets back and give us a chance to decide if we need to put a C next to him. He has the versatility we needed, and he gets the 3 wings on the floor together which was clearly the most important thing to the Knicks FO.

Im fine with KAT at the 4. My point is historically it never worked at him playing the 5 full time. He had a negative net rating every year in the playoffs and atrocious DEF ratings. There's too much data that show that the Timberwolves suffer in any lineup with KAT without Gobert.

Small sample size, but yesterday our defense just looked terrible from the starters. Not really sure having 3 wing defenders is going to work next to KAT. Timberwolves tried that with NAW, McDaniels, Kyle Anderson and they were still putrid defensively unless Gobert was in there.

[Gravy]

Thibs has always been the team's identity more than the players. Now fans finally see the value in having rim protection at all times, but this is the small ball everybody wanted except with Towns instead of Randle.

[HerSports85]

They never had talent besides that one year with Jimmy where he got hurt - they were the 3rd seed in the West for most of the season. Unless you believe Wiggins and D'Lo are a formidable supporting cast. All the data suggests that KAT was elevating the team despite his defensive limitations and that its the supporting cast around him that was hurting them.

Which data show that he was elevating the team in the playoffs?

He was positive this year.


2022-2023 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative, even Ant.
2021-2022 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative
2017-2018 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative


At one point, Jalen Brunson was -25.2 net with the Mavs in one of their 2 playoff runs. Lower seeds get cooked and everyone is negative.

RTG is such a trash stat IMO, especially in the playoffs. If we took this data for face value, KAT DEFRTG was better than our entire starting lineup. And his NETRTG was better than Brunson's which we know both is drastically incorrect.

[Capn'O]

this team has had a fundamental sea change. it will not be able to operate as it did the last 2 years and will have to find it's identity. that will take time and who knows how it will turn out.

The identity was defense and offensive rebounding i.e., Mitch and iHart (and to a lesser extent Josh Hart).

They couldn't keep iHart.

Mitch's recovery isn't going as planned and he likely won't play until January or February.

That was the sea change.

Flipping Randle for KAT has no effect on that identit. Randle didn't defend and his impact on the offensive board was meager and inconsequential.

True but I don't think anything that Chanel said contradicted anything that sham said. Regardless of the reasoning, the team is going to have a fundamentally different identity and it's that focus on OREB as much as rim protection. We were one of the best teams at creating second opportunities ever. It will be interesting to see how Thibs adjusts when Mitch comes back because to a degree it will be an opportunity to revert somewhat to last season's identity. I suppose it all depends on how things are going.

[NYKinMIA]

how many ways can you say the same shyt?

[whocares1]

Thibs has always been the team's identity more than the players. Now fans finally see the value in having rim protection at all times, but this is the small ball everybody wanted except with Towns instead of Randle.

Because other teams also run lineups with no rim protector and do just fine during stretches of the game. It’s good to at least have the option of having that when we need spacing.

[Capn'O]

Also fun fact, Mitch is 2nd all time in total blocks for us with 602, trailing only Ewing with 2,758.

Right on his tail

[NoDopeOnSundays]

It doesn't translate into winning basketball is my point. Every year he played C, they either missed the playoffs or was a 1st round exit. We have all of the data in the world that show why it never worked.

He went to the playoffs 2 times as a center, I mean he's played in the playoffs more than Randle despite being in the league 1 year less. The two times he played as a C, they were going against the 65-17 Rockets, and the 56-26 Grizz, they were a 7th and 8th seed, those weren't going to be competitive series. And going by the splits, he had 1 positive as a PF, and 1 negative, which is the same as Randles 2 years in the playoffs. So, shouldn't we be happy we got someone that's a better PF, while also being able to be a 5?

The fact he can do both is what's important, he can play the 4 or 5, he will hold the fort until Maybe Mitch gets back and give us a chance to decide if we need to put a C next to him. He has the versatility we needed, and he gets the 3 wings on the floor together which was clearly the most important thing to the Knicks FO.

Im fine with KAT at the 4. My point is historically it never worked at him playing the 5 full time. He had a negative net rating every year in the playoffs and atrocious DEF ratings. There's too much data that show that the Timberwolves suffer in any lineup with KAT without Gobert.

Small sample size, but yesterday our defense just looked terrible from the starters. Not really sure having 3 wing defenders is going to work next to KAT. Timberwolves tried that with NAW, McDaniels, Kyle Anderson and they were still putrid defensively unless Gobert was in there.

KAT was fine at C in 2021-2022 before they had Gobert, they made the playoffs with him as the best player, were 13th defensively while he put up 25/10/4, he won't be the best player on this team and he's surrounded by better players and defenders. I don't think using playoff net rating for lower seeds works, the whole starting 5 will play and lose the time they're on the court. Jimmy Butler had a negative net rating when they lost to the Rockets, Taj Gibson had a worse net rating than KAT at -17.6, we know he can defend but when you're an 8th seed and a 65-17 team is coming to town you're going to get washed.


Yesterday is a preseason game, I won't get concerned until we're in December and we're not a top 10 defensive team. We didn't have a center, Randle wasn't going to fill that gap, KAT can do that until Walking Boot gets back from injury, or we trade for one. Either way, we have versatility and the offense is going to be devastating and KAT gives us the versatility to be either a big team or a small team while still keeping size on the floor.

[Deeeez Knicks]

A floor spacing big is probably more critical then a rim protecting big at this point in the league

[Capn'O]

Dominican Bargnani was in full display last night smh. Also had just 4 rebounds and gave up 9 to Nick richards.

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[HerSports85]

Kat actually played bette defense on Joker in the playoffs than any other center. Also played game 2 without Rudy and the Timberwolves won by their largest margin.

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Do you want him as your primary center, probably not, but he's capable. What's certain is that I definitely wouldn't have wanted Randle, either. However, we still have the same problem because we are thin upfront. I don't think anyone is arguing this point. We need a dominate center. But did we upgrade talent, yes we did.

Now we just have to figure out how to make it work until Mitch returns or we make a trade.

[E-Balla]

A floor spacing big is probably more critical then a rim protecting big at this point in the league

Name a single team that has won without a rim protecting big or a wing/forward that can protect the rim? In NBA history. Like there's no archetype of player more consistently impactful than a rim protector, no matter the era. The best shots are still dunks and layups. An uncontested layup is a damn near 90% shot.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

A floor spacing big is probably more critical then a rim protecting big at this point in the league

That's the thing I don't get, we still have both, it's just that one of them is hurt. Walking Boot is still on the team, if it turns out KAT can't play C, then we can just push him to the 4.


What we didn't have before is a big that hits 40% of their threes, and can play the 4 and 5.