Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets

[3toheadmelo]

They never had talent besides that one year with Jimmy where he got hurt - they were the 3rd seed in the West for most of the season. Unless you believe Wiggins and D'Lo are a formidable supporting cast. All the data suggests that KAT was elevating the team despite his defensive limitations and that its the supporting cast around him that was hurting them.

Which data show that he was elevating the team in the playoffs?

He was positive this year.


2022-2023 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative, even Ant.
2021-2022 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative
2017-2018 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative


At one point, Jalen Brunson was -25.2 net with the Mavs in one of their 2 playoff runs. Lower seeds get cooked and everyone is negative.

Ant was barely a negative in 2023, at -0.1. Not even close to being as disastrous as KAT at -10.5.

I don't see anywhere where Brunson was a -25.2.


There's just too much data that show the Timberwolves suffer with KAT in the playoffs, especially without Gobert.

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[E-Balla]

Kat actually played bette defense on Joker in the playoffs than any other center. Also played game 2 without Rudy and the Timberwolves won by their largest margin.

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Do you want him as your primary center, probably not, but he's capable. What's certain is that I definitely wouldn't have wanted Randle, either. However, we still have the same problem because we are thin upfront. I don't think anyone is arguing this point. We need a dominate center. But did we upgrade talent, yes we did.

Now we just have to figure out how to make it work until Mitch returns or we make a trade.

Check the 3 point percentage. That's great defensive scheming and help from Rudy. In that game 2 Naz had 4 blocks and NAW had 3, I actually think that game is why they felt so confident letting KAT go.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Which data show that he was elevating the team in the playoffs?

He was positive this year.


2022-2023 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative, even Ant.
2021-2022 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative
2017-2018 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative


At one point, Jalen Brunson was -25.2 net with the Mavs in one of their 2 playoff runs. Lower seeds get cooked and everyone is negative.

Ant was barely a negative in 2023, at -0.1. Not even close to being as disastrous as KAT at -10.5.

I don't see anywhere where Brunson was a -25.2.


There's just too much data that show the Timberwolves suffer with KAT in the playoffs, especially without Gobert.

Read on Twitter

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Brunson




KAT played a grand total of 11 playoffs games as a center for the Wolves, he got them to the playoffs twice as a C, one time as the best player on the team. I don't see how net rating matters that much, especially not when Randle is really the crux of the argument, he has 2 playoff numbers, one is +1.5 and the other is -12.1, which do we put more stock into?

[3toheadmelo]

He went to the playoffs 2 times as a center, I mean he's played in the playoffs more than Randle despite being in the league 1 year less. The two times he played as a C, they were going against the 65-17 Rockets, and the 56-26 Grizz, they were a 7th and 8th seed, those weren't going to be competitive series. And going by the splits, he had 1 positive as a PF, and 1 negative, which is the same as Randles 2 years in the playoffs. So, shouldn't we be happy we got someone that's a better PF, while also being able to be a 5?

The fact he can do both is what's important, he can play the 4 or 5, he will hold the fort until Maybe Mitch gets back and give us a chance to decide if we need to put a C next to him. He has the versatility we needed, and he gets the 3 wings on the floor together which was clearly the most important thing to the Knicks FO.

Im fine with KAT at the 4. My point is historically it never worked at him playing the 5 full time. He had a negative net rating every year in the playoffs and atrocious DEF ratings. There's too much data that show that the Timberwolves suffer in any lineup with KAT without Gobert.

Small sample size, but yesterday our defense just looked terrible from the starters. Not really sure having 3 wing defenders is going to work next to KAT. Timberwolves tried that with NAW, McDaniels, Kyle Anderson and they were still putrid defensively unless Gobert was in there.

KAT was fine at C in 2021-2022 before they had Gobert, they made the playoffs with him as the best player, were 13th defensively while he put up 25/10/4, he won't be the best player on this team and he's surrounded by better players and defenders. I don't think using playoff net rating for lower seeds works, the whole starting 5 will play and lose the time they're on the court. Jimmy Butler had a negative net rating when they lost to the Rockets, Taj Gibson had a worse net rating than KAT at -17.6, we know he can defend but when you're an 8th seed and a 65-17 team is coming to town you're going to get washed.


Yesterday is a preseason game, I won't get concerned until we're in December and we're not a top 10 defensive team. We didn't have a center, Randle wasn't going to fill that gap, KAT can do that until Walking Boot gets back from injury, or we trade for one. Either way, we have versatility and the offense is going to be devastating and KAT gives us the versatility to be either a big team or a small team while still keeping size on the floor.

They were a 1st round exit in 2022 though. It doesn't translate into winning basketball.

Pretty much historically, their defense has been terrible with KAT at C.

Towns-centered teams were glorified turnstiles for a large part of his early career. Minnesota ranked in the bottom 10 in defense for six straight seasons from 2015-16 to 2020-21, with their best performance coming in the year Towns missed almost half of their games.

[MrDollarBills]

Is it too early for me to start calling for Kolek to be in the rotation or nah? I'm itching to overreact

[HerSports85]

Kat actually played bette defense on Joker in the playoffs than any other center. Also played game 2 without Rudy and the Timberwolves won by their largest margin.

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Do you want him as your primary center, probably not, but he's capable. What's certain is that I definitely wouldn't have wanted Randle, either. However, we still have the same problem because we are thin upfront. I don't think anyone is arguing this point. We need a dominate center. But did we upgrade talent, yes we did.

Now we just have to figure out how to make it work until Mitch returns or we make a trade.

Check the 3 point percentage. That's great defensive scheming and help from Rudy. In that game 2 Naz had 4 blocks and NAW had 3, I actually think that game is why they felt so confident letting KAT go.

Naz blocked 2 of Murray shots and 2 of Joker's(same play). He was free to roam the floor while KAT was the primary defender, a role OG should be playing. If I find video, I'll post it.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Im fine with KAT at the 4. My point is historically it never worked at him playing the 5 full time. He had a negative net rating every year in the playoffs and atrocious DEF ratings. There's too much data that show that the Timberwolves suffer in any lineup with KAT without Gobert.

Small sample size, but yesterday our defense just looked terrible from the starters. Not really sure having 3 wing defenders is going to work next to KAT. Timberwolves tried that with NAW, McDaniels, Kyle Anderson and they were still putrid defensively unless Gobert was in there.

KAT was fine at C in 2021-2022 before they had Gobert, they made the playoffs with him as the best player, were 13th defensively while he put up 25/10/4, he won't be the best player on this team and he's surrounded by better players and defenders. I don't think using playoff net rating for lower seeds works, the whole starting 5 will play and lose the time they're on the court. Jimmy Butler had a negative net rating when they lost to the Rockets, Taj Gibson had a worse net rating than KAT at -17.6, we know he can defend but when you're an 8th seed and a 65-17 team is coming to town you're going to get washed.


Yesterday is a preseason game, I won't get concerned until we're in December and we're not a top 10 defensive team. We didn't have a center, Randle wasn't going to fill that gap, KAT can do that until Walking Boot gets back from injury, or we trade for one. Either way, we have versatility and the offense is going to be devastating and KAT gives us the versatility to be either a big team or a small team while still keeping size on the floor.

They were a 1st round exit in 2022 though. It doesn't translate into winning basketball.

Pretty much historically, their defense has been terrible with KAT at C.

Towns-centered teams were glorified turnstiles for a large part of his early career. Minnesota ranked in the bottom 10 in defense for six straight seasons from 2015-16 to 2020-21, with their best performance coming in the year Towns missed almost half of their games.

They were the 7th seed in 2022, were they supposed to beat the better team? We were a first round exit with Randle as our best player too, KAT isn't the best player here, just like Randle wasn't the best player when we advanced. We'll go as far as Jalen takes us, and KAT is here to make things easier for him.

[E-Balla]

A floor spacing big is probably more critical then a rim protecting big at this point in the league

Name a single team that has won without a rim protecting big or a wing/forward that can protect the rim? In NBA history. Like there's no archetype of player more consistently impactful than a rim protector, no matter the era. The best shots are still dunks and layups. An uncontested layup is a damn near 90% shot.

Looked it up the Celtics and Wolves were the 2 best rim defending teams last year. Post trade deadline the Mavericks were the best rim defending team last year.

In 2023 the Nuggets allowed the least amount of points inside of 6 feet per game in the playoffs.

The 2022 Warriors were 5th *lowest in points allowed inside of 6 feet.

The 2021 Bucks allowed the fewest points inside of 6 feet.

Like what NBA are y'all watching where rim defenders are dead? The one where Gafford/Lively vs Gobert/KAT determined the WCF and where Horford/KP were key players on the championship squad?

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Is it too early for me to start calling for Kolek to be in the rotation or nah? I'm itching to overreact

That's not an overreaction, I've seen people say he's Mark Price. Step your game up.

[MrDollarBills]

A floor spacing big is probably more critical then a rim protecting big at this point in the league

Yeah I agree with this. I think defensively we will see much better from the starting unit but I'm not worried about teams playing KAT off the floor when he's knocking down threes at a high clip.

[3toheadmelo]

He was positive this year.


2022-2023 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative, even Ant.
2021-2022 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative
2017-2018 - Everyone in the starting 5 was negative


At one point, Jalen Brunson was -25.2 net with the Mavs in one of their 2 playoff runs. Lower seeds get cooked and everyone is negative.

Ant was barely a negative in 2023, at -0.1. Not even close to being as disastrous as KAT at -10.5.

I don't see anywhere where Brunson was a -25.2.


There's just too much data that show the Timberwolves suffer with KAT in the playoffs, especially without Gobert.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Brunson




KAT played a grand total of 11 playoffs games as a center for the Wolves, he got them to the playoffs twice as a C, one time as the best player on the team. I don't see how net rating matters that much, especially not when Randle is really the crux of the argument, he has 2 playoff numbers, one is +1.5 and the other is -12.1, which do we put more stock into?

That was the year Brunson played extremely bad for them. A lot of Mavs fans didn't want to extend him just because how awful he was that year in the playoffs. Then he got way better

It's not even only net ratings, its the on and off numbers and DEF rating that show they were worse with him playing C. Hell even just this past season it still was a disaster for them.

It's quite possible Minnesota feels comfortable with Towns at the five, surrounded by elite perimeter defenders—but lineups with Towns at the pivot haven't yielded the best results on defense. In Minnesota's most played lineup excluding Gobert, and Towns at the five, the Wolves gave up 122 points per 100 possessions—ranking in the 21st percentile.

We got past the 1st round with Randle. Timberwolves never did with KAT until they brought in Gobert.

Feels like we're going in circles about this. All I can say is that last night, KAT did nothing to calm my fears about his defense. It's just 1 preseason game though, so we'll see if it gets better.

[MrDollarBills]

Is it too early for me to start calling for Kolek to be in the rotation or nah? I'm itching to overreact

That's not an overreaction, I've seen people say he's Mark Price. Step your game up.

Whoo boy. I'm way behind the curve then.

Kolek needs to start.

[3toheadmelo]

KAT was fine at C in 2021-2022 before they had Gobert, they made the playoffs with him as the best player, were 13th defensively while he put up 25/10/4, he won't be the best player on this team and he's surrounded by better players and defenders. I don't think using playoff net rating for lower seeds works, the whole starting 5 will play and lose the time they're on the court. Jimmy Butler had a negative net rating when they lost to the Rockets, Taj Gibson had a worse net rating than KAT at -17.6, we know he can defend but when you're an 8th seed and a 65-17 team is coming to town you're going to get washed.


Yesterday is a preseason game, I won't get concerned until we're in December and we're not a top 10 defensive team. We didn't have a center, Randle wasn't going to fill that gap, KAT can do that until Walking Boot gets back from injury, or we trade for one. Either way, we have versatility and the offense is going to be devastating and KAT gives us the versatility to be either a big team or a small team while still keeping size on the floor.

They were a 1st round exit in 2022 though. It doesn't translate into winning basketball.

Pretty much historically, their defense has been terrible with KAT at C.

Towns-centered teams were glorified turnstiles for a large part of his early career. Minnesota ranked in the bottom 10 in defense for six straight seasons from 2015-16 to 2020-21, with their best performance coming in the year Towns missed almost half of their games.

They were the 7th seed in 2022, were they supposed to beat the better team? We were a first round exit with Randle as our best player too, KAT isn't the best player here, just like Randle wasn't the best player when we advanced. We'll go as far as Jalen takes us, and KAT is here to make things easier for him.

KAT wasnt their best player in 2018 when they were a 1st round exit though. That was Jimmy Butler.

[E-Balla]

Naz blocked 2 of Murray shots and 2 of Joker's(same play). He was free to roam the floor while KAT was the primary defender, a role OG should be playing. If I find video, I'll post it.

OG can't block shots like NAW and Naz.

OG defends 6 shots per 100 at the rim and holds opponents to -6% shooting. Naz defends twice as many shots just as effectively (11.4 shots at -6) and NAW is slightly better than OG.

KAT's defense worked because he had sufficient help inside, help we don't have outside of Mitch and Precious.

He's not a C defensively, not by a long shot and you're just agreeing with me here when you say this. OG isn't sufficient as the low man that's easy buckets it's just not what he does. He's a man to man guy in the low post like KAT that needs a low man behind him like KAT.

[E-Balla]

A floor spacing big is probably more critical then a rim protecting big at this point in the league

Yeah I agree with this. I think defensively we will see much better from the starting unit but I'm not worried about teams playing KAT off the floor when he's knocking down threes at a high clip.

Objectively speaking where is the evidence of this? Name a champion without a rim protector or an NBA finalist? No great defense is built without a rim defender to pack **** and scare opponents. Mitch is key.

[3toheadmelo]

Naz blocked 2 of Murray shots and 2 of Joker's(same play). He was free to roam the floor while KAT was the primary defender, a role OG should be playing. If I find video, I'll post it.

OG can't block shots like NAW and Naz.

OG defends 6 shots per 100 at the rim and holds opponents to -6% shooting. Naz defends twice as many shots just as effectively (11.4 shots at -6) and NAW is slightly better than OG.

KAT's defense worked because he had sufficient help inside, help we don't have outside of Mitch and Precious.

He's not a C defensively, not by a long shot and you're just agreeing with me here when you say this. OG isn't sufficient as the low man that's easy buckets it's just not what he does. He's a man to man guy in the low post like KAT that needs a low man behind him like KAT.

[god shammgod]

actually the fans weren't happy with the everybody shoot 3s, no defense trend over the last few years and so the league purposely instructed the refs to allow a lot more physicality in the game halfway through the year last year and that will be the advantage teams will have to exploit now. one we had and lost. that's what will be important in the game now.

[RHODEY]

Here goes a long post that no one will read.

What I think the Knicks should do rotation wise.

First off, I advocated for Precious to start so Knicks could run a jumbo lineup and it would preserve Hart for the bench, which I think is important, as Hart's ability to slot in at 4,3 or even 2 make him the ideal 6th or 7th man.
I'm less enamored of that now.

I'd start Deuce, or, believe it or not, Shamet. Yeah, pretty crazy mentioning Shamet, but read further.

There are several reasons for wanting to start Deuce at SG, or, if Thibs is dead set on him coming off the bench, Shamet.

#1 - The Knicks should play 5 out. Just embrace it.
#2 - Hart makes the most sense as the 1st sub, see above
#3 - OG. He has the offensive skills of Charles Oakley and that's not a compliment. NO WAY do I want OG and Hart sharing the floor for too many minutes.



Hart and OG are ultimately too offensively flawed to see too much time on the floor together.

Oh, and trade for Tre Murphy so Knicks can be 5 for longer stretches.

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[3toheadmelo]

Dominican Bargnani was in full display last night smh. Also had just 4 rebounds and gave up 9 to Nick richards.

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It's fair game if Iron and other people gonna keep trolling about Randle for no reason. Aint nobody was talking about him until Iron and his crew hopped in

[HerSports85]

Naz blocked 2 of Murray shots and 2 of Joker's(same play). He was free to roam the floor while KAT was the primary defender, a role OG should be playing. If I find video, I'll post it.

OG can't block shots like NAW and Naz.

OG defends 6 shots per 100 at the rim and holds opponents to -6% shooting. Naz defends twice as many shots just as effectively (11.4 shots at -6) and NAW is slightly better than OG.

KAT's defense worked because he had sufficient help inside, help we don't have outside of Mitch and Precious.

He's not a C defensively, not by a long shot and you're just agreeing with me here when you say this. OG isn't sufficient as the low man that's easy buckets it's just not what he does. He's a man to man guy in the low post like KAT that needs a low man behind him like KAT.

If you read my post, I do agree we need someone protecting the rim. My point is the following: 1. The trade doesn't correlate to that being a fact. This was a need before the trade. So, to keep talking about it like the trade effected this is disingenuous (and this is not necessarily pertaining to you). 2. He's better than what we sent out.