Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets

[3toheadmelo]

actually the fans weren't happy with the everybody shoot 3s, no defense trend over the last few years and so the league purposely instructed the refs to allow a lot more physicality in the game halfway through the year last year and that will be the advantage teams will have to exploit now. one we had and lost. that's what will be what's important in the game now.

I think it's gonna take longer than 30 days for people to admit KAT doesnt work at the 5

[E-Balla]

Here goes a long post that no one will read.

What I think the Knicks should do rotation wise.

First off, I advocated for Precious to start so Knicks could run a jumbo lineup and it would preserve Hart for the bench, which I think is important, as Hart's ability to slot in at 4,3 or even 2 make him the ideal 6th or 7th man.
I'm less enamored of that now.

I'd start Deuce, or, believe it or not, Shamet. Yeah, pretty crazy mentioning Shamet, but read further.

There are several reasons for wanting to start Deuce at SG, or, if Thibs is dead set on him coming off the bench, Shamet.

#1 - The Knicks should play 5 out. Just embrace it.
#2 - Hart makes the most sense as the 1st sub, see above
#3 - OG. He has the offensive skills of Charles Oakley and that's not a compliment. NO WAY do I want OG and Hart sharing the floor for too many minutes.



Hart and OG are ultimately too offensively flawed to see too much time on the floor together.

Oh, and trade for Tre Murphy so Knicks can be 5 for longer stretches.

Watch on YouTube

Aye Oakley had a nice middy don't do him like that lmao. Oakley averaged like 14/12/3 on 58 TS% for a while. OG averaged 14/4/2 on 60 TS% in a much more offensive/efficiency oriented league.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Ant was barely a negative in 2023, at -0.1. Not even close to being as disastrous as KAT at -10.5.

I don't see anywhere where Brunson was a -25.2.


There's just too much data that show the Timberwolves suffer with KAT in the playoffs, especially without Gobert.

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Brunson




KAT played a grand total of 11 playoffs games as a center for the Wolves, he got them to the playoffs twice as a C, one time as the best player on the team. I don't see how net rating matters that much, especially not when Randle is really the crux of the argument, he has 2 playoff numbers, one is +1.5 and the other is -12.1, which do we put more stock into?

That was the year Brunson played extremely bad for them. A lot of Mavs fans didn't want to extend him just because how awful he was that year in the playoffs. Then he got way better

It's not even only net ratings, its the on and off numbers and DEF rating that show they were worse with him playing C. Hell even just this past season it still was a disaster for them.

It's quite possible Minnesota feels comfortable with Towns at the five, surrounded by elite perimeter defenders—but lineups with Towns at the pivot haven't yielded the best results on defense. In Minnesota's most played lineup excluding Gobert, and Towns at the five, the Wolves gave up 122 points per 100 possessions—ranking in the 21st percentile.

We got past the 1st round with Randle. Timberwolves never did with KAT until they brought in Gobert.

Feels like we're going in circles about this. All I can say is that last night, KAT did nothing to calm my fears about his defense. It's just 1 preseason game though, so we'll see if it gets better.

Jalen's net rating goes to show that it doesn't mean everything, he was virtually unplayable against the Clippers, and it's part of the reason they let him walk. Even when he helped them get to the WCF he wasn't some huge positive, and even our most recent playoffs he was neutral.

We got past the first round because of Brunson being our best player, not because of Randle, nothing in Town's jacket is as bad as that Hawks series too. I don't see the concerns, we still have Walking Boot on the team, we're going to evaluate whether or not KAT can do it, and if he can't Walking Boot will play next to him against big teams. Maybe the way to beating the Celtics is having a mix of big and smallball, KAT gives us the option that wasn't there before.

[E-Balla]

Naz blocked 2 of Murray shots and 2 of Joker's(same play). He was free to roam the floor while KAT was the primary defender, a role OG should be playing. If I find video, I'll post it.

OG can't block shots like NAW and Naz.

OG defends 6 shots per 100 at the rim and holds opponents to -6% shooting. Naz defends twice as many shots just as effectively (11.4 shots at -6) and NAW is slightly better than OG.

KAT's defense worked because he had sufficient help inside, help we don't have outside of Mitch and Precious.

He's not a C defensively, not by a long shot and you're just agreeing with me here when you say this. OG isn't sufficient as the low man that's easy buckets it's just not what he does. He's a man to man guy in the low post like KAT that needs a low man behind him like KAT.

If you read my post, I do agree we need someone protecting the rim. My point is the following: 1. The trade doesn't correlate to that being a fact. This was a need before the trade. So, to keep talking about it like the trade effected this is disingenuous (and this is not necessarily pertaining to you). 2. He's better than what we sent out.

Nah that's why I said we agree ultimately. You just think OG is sufficient and I don't is all.

And we disagree on point 2 but y'all already know I don't think that has much to do with Randle.

[stuporman]

A floor spacing big is probably more critical then a rim protecting big at this point in the league

The unicorn model is the one that sets apart the mid teams from the better teams. If you have one that does both, it elevates a team on both ends.

[god shammgod]

actually the fans weren't happy with the everybody shoot 3s, no defense trend over the last few years and so the league purposely instructed the refs to allow a lot more physicality in the game halfway through the year last year and that will be the advantage teams will have to exploit now. one we had and lost. that's what will be what's important in the game now.

I think it's gonna take longer than 30 days for people to admit KAT doesnt work at the 5

because it's such a new group of guys it will be easy to write off as unfamiliarity for awhile. so you'll be able to argue either way.

[MrDollarBills]

A floor spacing big is probably more critical then a rim protecting big at this point in the league

Yeah I agree with this. I think defensively we will see much better from the starting unit but I'm not worried about teams playing KAT off the floor when he's knocking down threes at a high clip.

Objectively speaking where is the evidence of this? Name a champion without a rim protector or an NBA finalist? No great defense is built without a rim defender to pack **** and scare opponents. Mitch is key.

Well, I was thinking that with Mikal, OG and Josh in the starting 5, the defense should be way better than what we saw last night once everyone knocks the rust off.

Golden State 2022 off the top of my head are the last ones to win without an elite rim protector.

[Capn'O]

Now that we know Donte was movable - would folks have supported moving him for a second rim protector? I think that's the alternative scenario.

[Wildcat]

Is it too early for me to start calling for Kolek to be in the rotation or nah? I'm itching to overreact

I don't think it's an overreaction. Rookie or not, we're talking about Payne here. I don't think anyone really liked the signing.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

Now that we know Donte was movable - would folks have supported moving him for a second rim protector? I think that's the alternative scenario.

I would have wanted a wing player back for him, the teams second unit is really small and I don't trust Chuma and Pacome isn't going to play, they need a backup 3 more than another rim protector. If they keep Walking Boot around there's no need for a second rim protector.

[El Poochio]

Shamet looks like he can emulate some of what Donte did last year, Leon Rose did it again folks

[stuporman]

Big men need a guard to succeed, they can't bring the ball up and get a team into it's offense so the better the lead ball handler that does this the better the big man can produce in their role.

The other side of that is the better the big man the higher the ceiling of the team so even though they need the guard to produce if the big man can't elevate themselves the team only goes so far.

This is why the combo of Brunson and KAT has such a high ceiling, they both can elevate to super star levels and all the team now needs the super glue guys to elevate in their roles.

Of course, with the Knicks roster, health will come into play with if it can fulfill the potential.

[vincccent]

Is it too early for me to start calling for Kolek to be in the rotation or nah? I'm itching to overreact

That's not an overreaction, I've seen people say he's Mark Price. Step your game up.

Whoo boy. I'm way behind the curve then.

Kolek needs to start.

Everyday you learn Something new, Mark Price was in the NBA first team in 92/93 with MJ, Barkley, Hakeem and Malone. Unbelivable stuff.

[Chanel Bomber]

The Timberwolves never got past the 1st round with KAT at C.

They never had talent besides that one year with Jimmy where he got hurt - they were the 3rd seed in the West for most of the season. Unless you believe Wiggins and D'Lo are a formidable supporting cast. All the data suggests that KAT was elevating the team despite his defensive limitations and that its the supporting cast around him that was hurting them.

Which data show that he was elevating the team in the playoffs?

These are lineup stats. Have to put them into the context of lineups and team performance. Any player whose team gets smoked in the playoffs due to a general lack of talent will tend to have a negative net rating.

But I was referring to the totality of each season, not narrowing down to the playoffs.

[thebuzzardman]

Here goes a long post that no one will read.

What I think the Knicks should do rotation wise.

First off, I advocated for Precious to start so Knicks could run a jumbo lineup and it would preserve Hart for the bench, which I think is important, as Hart's ability to slot in at 4,3 or even 2 make him the ideal 6th or 7th man.
I'm less enamored of that now.

I'd start Deuce, or, believe it or not, Shamet. Yeah, pretty crazy mentioning Shamet, but read further.

There are several reasons for wanting to start Deuce at SG, or, if Thibs is dead set on him coming off the bench, Shamet.

#1 - The Knicks should play 5 out. Just embrace it.
#2 - Hart makes the most sense as the 1st sub, see above
#3 - OG. He has the offensive skills of Charles Oakley and that's not a compliment. NO WAY do I want OG and Hart sharing the floor for too many minutes.



Hart and OG are ultimately too offensively flawed to see too much time on the floor together.

Oh, and trade for Tre Murphy so Knicks can be 5 for longer stretches.

Watch on YouTube

Aye Oakley had a nice middy don't do him like that lmao. Oakley averaged like 14/12/3 on 58 TS% for a while. OG averaged 14/4/2 on 60 TS% in a much more offensive/efficiency oriented league.

Yeah, sort of an exaggeration. Point being, I like Hart and OG a lot, but they are lacking in a combination of shooting (Hart) and creation (OG) that I don't want to see too much of at the same time.

[cgmw]

I realize this board traded Mitch a long time ago, but last I checked he’s still on the roster and figures to play 24-30 mpg for the second half of the season including playoffs. Rim protection is not an issue.

Your 9-man playoff rotation is:

Mitch
KAT | Precious (or Shamet)
OG | Hart
Bridges | Deuce
Brunson | Cam (or Kolek)

[3toheadmelo]

Brunson




KAT played a grand total of 11 playoffs games as a center for the Wolves, he got them to the playoffs twice as a C, one time as the best player on the team. I don't see how net rating matters that much, especially not when Randle is really the crux of the argument, he has 2 playoff numbers, one is +1.5 and the other is -12.1, which do we put more stock into?

That was the year Brunson played extremely bad for them. A lot of Mavs fans didn't want to extend him just because how awful he was that year in the playoffs. Then he got way better

It's not even only net ratings, its the on and off numbers and DEF rating that show they were worse with him playing C. Hell even just this past season it still was a disaster for them.

It's quite possible Minnesota feels comfortable with Towns at the five, surrounded by elite perimeter defenders—but lineups with Towns at the pivot haven't yielded the best results on defense. In Minnesota's most played lineup excluding Gobert, and Towns at the five, the Wolves gave up 122 points per 100 possessions—ranking in the 21st percentile.

We got past the 1st round with Randle. Timberwolves never did with KAT until they brought in Gobert.

Feels like we're going in circles about this. All I can say is that last night, KAT did nothing to calm my fears about his defense. It's just 1 preseason game though, so we'll see if it gets better.

Jalen's net rating goes to show that it doesn't mean everything, he was virtually unplayable against the Clippers, and it's part of the reason they let him walk. Even when he helped them get to the WCF he wasn't some huge positive, and even our most recent playoffs he was neutral.

We got past the first round because of Brunson being our best player, not because of Randle, nothing in Town's jacket is as bad as that Hawks series too. I don't see the concerns, we still have Walking Boot on the team, we're going to evaluate whether or not KAT can do it, and if he can't Walking Boot will play next to him against big teams. Maybe the way to beating the Celtics is having a mix of big and smallball, KAT gives us the option that wasn't there before.

It doesn't mean everything, but it's a pretty good indicator of who helped their team more. But like I said, there's more than just net ratings. I've even posted the on and off ratings, DEF ratings, points per possessions with KAT at the 5.. etc.

The Timberwolves couldn't get past the 1st round with Butler as their best player just because of how disastrous KAT was at the 5. So it doesn't really matter who's the Timberwolves best player. The key factor is him playing the 5.

I hear what you saying about us having more options with KAT, but I just don't think it will work based on the years of data we have. Would gladly love to be proven wrong though. I thought Donte was an overpay based on his previous performances in the playoffs before he became Knick and he ended up being a bit better than I thought he would be (although he was still streaky af). Maybe KAT does the same thing.

[Jalen Bluntson]

Well. That was some sloppy bullshyt.

I knew we weren't gonna have the chemistry out of the gate. That is what we gave up most in this trade. Starting over with an offensive center is going to take time as well. If we could have had Mitch out there I think it might look closer to what we had. I also don't like Hart with the starters. Anyway.

Deuce is gonna take that leap we all hoped for. You can see he worked on things this summer.
Shamet looked decent. Nice depth piece.
Kolek is so damn tiny! He should play over Cam if he can keep this up.
Did Bridges play tonight?
OG looks fat.
KAT does things Randle could only dream of but, this is gonna take time.
Cam sucks.
Sims sucks.
Precious is Precious. Glad we kept him but, he's trade fodder most likely.

We literally have ONE player from the starting lineup last year. Brunson has to learn how to run an entire new lineup...again. I expect bumps and bruises. They also won't be playing the same way. Shart leaving and Mitch being hurt changed everything about the team. Let's see what Thibs can do with this squad. Leon still has some work to do though because we are thin and need a real backup 5. Sims ain't it and never will be anything more than trade filler.

Mitch sucks.

Calm down...it's a friggen pre-season game, not Game 4 of the playoffs...

Why don't you calm down? Point to one thing in this post that I need to calm down about. You're the one getting all worked up.

[E-Balla]

Well, I was thinking that with Mikal, OG and Josh in the starting 5, the defense should be way better than what we saw last night once everyone knocks the rust off.

Golden State 2022 off the top of my head are the last ones to win without an elite rim protector.

They had Draymond who is one of the best rim defenders ever. His rim protection is literally the thing that makes him so amazing, he holds opponents to -13% under their shooting averages at the rim in the playoffs and -8% in the regular season. Also no player in the league prevents more shots at the rim than Draymond over the last decade outside of Gobert.

They also had Looney (holds opponents to -6% at the rim about equal to Mitch).

The Warriors were the 5th best paint defense in the NBA that year.

So no, the Warriors had multiple rim defenders playing heavy minutes.

Even Wiggins in 2021 and 2022 had better rim protection numbers than every Knick other than Precious and Mitch.

Trust me there's no team you're going to be able to say here, a rim protector is a necessary piece to any NBA champion.

EDIT: And the reason why is that a great aggressive perimeter defender is useless if they can get screened out of a play and no matter how hard they work there's going to be an open layup off it.

[thebuzzardman]

Is it too early for me to start calling for Kolek to be in the rotation or nah? I'm itching to overreact

That's not an overreaction, I've seen people say he's Mark Price. Step your game up.

Mark Somewhat Lower Price