Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets

[Chanel Bomber]

I will also say that the Wolves never had a team around Towns that you'd expect to do much. Maybe the Butler year they should have been a little better.

They were third in the West for most of the season (before Jimmy got hurt and hurt the last 20 games of the RS or so).

They met a juggernaut in the first round, with Jimmy playing hurt.

One of those what if seasons.

Agree with your general point.

[E-Balla]

We actually gained size and shot blocking with this trade

No we didn't. It's a lateral move.

[Chanel Bomber]

We can't even have healthy debates with metrics on here anymore. What happened to this place

this place is just like everywhere else, this is discourse in this country nowadays. "i don't want to hear anything i don't fully agree with. and i want the people saying it gone if they don't stop saying it"

Yep, people can't have debates without being ignorant and disrespectful to the other side. It sucks.

I'm open to being wrong about KAT at the 5 and I'm sure you are too, but apparently if you think it's not gonna work you're just "trolling and rooting him to fail" like wtf?

I think you should be entitled to voicing your opinion even if it's inconvenient for the broader discourse around the Knicks.

Time will tell who was wrong and who was right, if either even happens in such a simplistic manner. Not that it matters to begin with. Nobody here has proven to be Jerry West.

Dialogue is rare nowadays and that's from all angles. It's regrettable. But dialogue requires listening and it's much easier to sit on one's high horse and judge, condemn, essentially dehumanize, than it is to risk engaging in an open discussion. When people call you "hater", "troll", that's what they essentially do. It's a way to strip you of your voice. You're no longer a rational actor and therefore your freedom of speech deserves to be revoked or punished. It's a totalitarian act.

Now I don't agree with the way you read some of the numbers around KAT, and I think you're decontextualizing his career too much, but that's just basketball talk.

[KnixinSix]

Read on Twitter

Kolek is gonna be a gem find for the Knicks he has 'it'. You can just sense the special in his game.

[ctorres]

We actually gained size and shot blocking with this trade

No we didn't. It's a lateral move.

Towns is 4 inches taller than Randle and blocks more shots. We literally did gain size and shot blocking with this trade

[E-Balla]

Team defense is way more important these days then just one shot blocker that roams the paint.

Both are needed to have a championship caliber defense as I showed you. Your example was literally a team with two great rim defenders on it.

The good teams have that floor spacing big that basically takes the guys like Gobert, Gafford, etc out of the paint. We have great wing defenders that can help cover. Plus we still have Mitch coming back so we can mix and match as needed.

Good teams? The best teams last year were Boston (they have KP and Al), Mavs (Lively/Gafford aren't spacing bigs), Denver (Jokic/DAJ and AG aren't spacing bigs), OKC (Chet is a spacing big but they're probably starting Hartenstein at C who isn't), and Minny (Gobert isn't a spacing big).

Every recent team had floor spacing bigs too. That was something we really needed. Randle at 30% from 3 + a non shooting C just wasnt going to be good enough.

So ideally we can play multiple different ways and can match up better against teams like the celtics.

No they didn't. Denver didn't. LA didn't. The Warriors didn't (Looney/McGee/Dray). Cleveland didn't (Thompson).

This is what you think, not objective reality. Reality shows unless you have KP/Horford (two of maybe 8 bigs in the league that both shoot and defend the rim along with JJJ, Wemby, Brook, Myles Turner, Embiid, and Chet) a shooting 5 without a rim defender behind him has never won ****.

The game is played on the court, not in your imagination and the lack of actual teams you can mention here says it all. Like you mentioned the Warriors as if Draymond and Kevon Looney weren't in their starting 5 lol.

[louisorr]

I heard Dadiet grew 2 inches and gained 20 lbs of pure muscle since the summer.

[E-Balla]

We actually gained size and shot blocking with this trade

No we didn't. It's a lateral move.

Towns is 4 inches taller than Randle and blocks more shots. We literally did gain size and shot blocking with this trade

In his career KAT holds opponents to -2.3% shooting at the rim. The last 3 years it's -1.8%. Randle holds opponents to -2.3% in his career and in the last 3 years it's -1.9%. KAT only contests 0.7 more shots per 100 too.

Blocks per game is meaningless.

[Capn'O]

this place is just like everywhere else, this is discourse in this country nowadays. "i don't want to hear anything i don't fully agree with. and i want the people saying it gone if they don't stop saying it"

Yep, people can't have debates without being ignorant and disrespectful to the other side. It sucks.

I'm open to being wrong about KAT at the 5 and I'm sure you are too, but apparently if you think it's not gonna work you're just "trolling and rooting him to fail" like wtf?

I think you should be entitled to voicing your opinion even if it's inconvenient for the broader discourse around the Knicks.

Time will tell who was wrong and who was right, if either even happens in such a simplistic manner. Not that it matters to begin with. Nobody here has proven to be Jerry West.

Dialogue is rare nowadays and that's from all angles. It's regrettable. But dialogue requires listening and it's much easier to sit on one's high horse and judge, condemn, essentially dehumanize, than it is to risk engaging in an open discussion. When people call you "hater", "troll", that's what they essentially do. It's a way to strip you of your voice. You're no longer a rational actor and therefore your freedom of speech deserves to be revoked or punished. It's a totalitarian act.

Now I don't agree with the way you read some of the numbers around KAT, and I think you're decontextualizing his career too much, but that's just basketball talk.

Very well put.

That said, **** Rudy Gobert.

[Fury]

the guy who built the current timberwolves is the guy who built the denver nuggets team with jokic. the timberwolves and the knicks have had similar periods of being inept over the last 2 decades. they just went further last year in a harder conference. we're in no place to criticize them.

I am 100% sure they traded him just cause of his salary.

[mpharris36]

No we didn't. It's a lateral move.

Towns is 4 inches taller than Randle and blocks more shots. We literally did gain size and shot blocking with this trade

In his career KAT holds opponents to -2.3% shooting at the rim. The last 3 years it's -1.8%. Randle holds opponents to -2.3% in his career and in the last 3 years it's -1.9%. KAT only contests 0.7 more shots per 100 too.

Blocks per game is meaningless.

to be fair....you are putting career stats and KAT has had to play way more center (it wasn't to way recently when he switched to PF). Playing bigger guys generally results in more shots closer to the rim in terms of shot profile (so contested similar amount of shots per 100 doesn't mean they are contested the same type of shots). More shots closer to the rim are usually more EFF shots. Just look at KAT's shots at the rim attempts before Gobert got there. They were sometimes 2-3 FGA more than randle for a season.

So the comparison isn't apples to apples. Randle is guarding 4's who are less likely to take shots closer at the rim in his career. KAT has mostly faced centers in his career.

As a 4 man you are less likely to have to defend and lob dunks or put backs...ect...shots that have very high EFF FG% shots. The few shots Randle is facing at the rim are probably vs smaller 4's since there aren't that many traditional 4 man in the NBA anymore. So he shouldn't be having to really battle for size and positioning.

So just because Randle has similar FG% at the rim doesn't mean he's a better interior defender...they are going up against completely different size players.

[Chanel Bomber]

Yep, people can't have debates without being ignorant and disrespectful to the other side. It sucks.

I'm open to being wrong about KAT at the 5 and I'm sure you are too, but apparently if you think it's not gonna work you're just "trolling and rooting him to fail" like wtf?

I think you should be entitled to voicing your opinion even if it's inconvenient for the broader discourse around the Knicks.

Time will tell who was wrong and who was right, if either even happens in such a simplistic manner. Not that it matters to begin with. Nobody here has proven to be Jerry West.

Dialogue is rare nowadays and that's from all angles. It's regrettable. But dialogue requires listening and it's much easier to sit on one's high horse and judge, condemn, essentially dehumanize, than it is to risk engaging in an open discussion. When people call you "hater", "troll", that's what they essentially do. It's a way to strip you of your voice. You're no longer a rational actor and therefore your freedom of speech deserves to be revoked or punished. It's a totalitarian act.

Now I don't agree with the way you read some of the numbers around KAT, and I think you're decontextualizing his career too much, but that's just basketball talk.

Very well put.

That said, **** Rudy Gobert.

[Zenzibar]

Team defense is way more important these days then just one shot blocker that roams the paint.

Both are needed to have a championship caliber defense as I showed you. Your example was literally a team with two great rim defenders on it.

The good teams have that floor spacing big that basically takes the guys like Gobert, Gafford, etc out of the paint. We have great wing defenders that can help cover. Plus we still have Mitch coming back so we can mix and match as needed.

Good teams? The best teams last year were Boston (they have KP and Al), Mavs (Lively/Gafford aren't spacing bigs), Denver (Jokic/DAJ and AG aren't spacing bigs), OKC (Chet is a spacing big but they're probably starting Hartenstein at C who isn't), and Minny (Gobert isn't a spacing big).

Every recent team had floor spacing bigs too. That was something we really needed. Randle at 30% from 3 + a non shooting C just wasnt going to be good enough.

So ideally we can play multiple different ways and can match up better against teams like the celtics.

No they didn't. Denver didn't. LA didn't. The Warriors didn't (Looney/McGee/Dray). Cleveland didn't (Thompson).

This is what you think, not objective reality. Reality shows unless you have KP/Horford (two of maybe 8 bigs in the league that both shoot and defend the rim along with JJJ, Wemby, Brook, Myles Turner, Embiid, and Chet) a shooting 5 without a rim defender behind him has never won ****.

The game is played on the court, not in your imagination and the lack of actual teams you can mention here says it all. Like you mentioned the Warriors as if Draymond and Kevon Looney weren't in their starting 5 lol.

[sol537]

Read on Twitter

Kolek is gonna be a gem find for the Knicks he has 'it'. You can just sense the special in his game.

I think he takes over the 13-14 minutes of back-up PG play from Cam Payne by Jan/Feb. He does have the it factor. Needs to get stronger and serviceable on defense, however.

[WaltFrazier]

JJ Redick had promised to work with Josh Hart this summer on his three. I'm sure that fell through after JJ got the Laker job. It's disappointing that Josh's shot doesn't look any better so far, because that's one thing that would be a huge boost to his game, and to the team's offense.

[Deeeez Knicks]

Team defense is way more important these days then just one shot blocker that roams the paint.

Both are needed to have a championship caliber defense as I showed you. Your example was literally a team with two great rim defenders on it.

The good teams have that floor spacing big that basically takes the guys like Gobert, Gafford, etc out of the paint. We have great wing defenders that can help cover. Plus we still have Mitch coming back so we can mix and match as needed.

Good teams? The best teams last year were Boston (they have KP and Al), Mavs (Lively/Gafford aren't spacing bigs), Denver (Jokic/DAJ and AG aren't spacing bigs), OKC (Chet is a spacing big but they're probably starting Hartenstein at C who isn't), and Minny (Gobert isn't a spacing big).

Every recent team had floor spacing bigs too. That was something we really needed. Randle at 30% from 3 + a non shooting C just wasnt going to be good enough.

So ideally we can play multiple different ways and can match up better against teams like the celtics.

No they didn't. Denver didn't. LA didn't. The Warriors didn't (Looney/McGee/Dray). Cleveland didn't (Thompson).

This is what you think, not objective reality. Reality shows unless you have KP/Horford (two of maybe 8 bigs in the league that both shoot and defend the rim along with JJJ, Wemby, Brook, Myles Turner, Embiid, and Chet) a shooting 5 without a rim defender behind him has never won ****.

The game is played on the court, not in your imagination and the lack of actual teams you can mention here says it all. Like you mentioned the Warriors as if Draymond and Kevon Looney weren't in their starting 5 lol.

LA had Anthony Davis who shot 38% from 3 during their run
Denver has Jokic, Gordon shot 39% from 3
I'll give you Dray, but Warriors are maybe one of the greatest shooting teams ever and def won with elite spacing. So small ball, and 3's were def a key to their recipe.

Both are def important and defense will always be important. The key is really finding the balance. I mean, even in your examples your listing players that can do a bit of both. KAT is closer to that type of mold then Randle as a C. He is not perfect and def not guaranteed to work out.

The key is really when Mitch comes back it'll give the Knicks more versatility to play big or small and match up. Another key to those championship teams is that they do play both big and small, and can play both styles well.

[Fat Kat]

Read on Twitter

[E-Balla]

Towns is 4 inches taller than Randle and blocks more shots. We literally did gain size and shot blocking with this trade

In his career KAT holds opponents to -2.3% shooting at the rim. The last 3 years it's -1.8%. Randle holds opponents to -2.3% in his career and in the last 3 years it's -1.9%. KAT only contests 0.7 more shots per 100 too.

Blocks per game is meaningless.

to be fair....you are putting career stats

I didn't just put career stats. I put last 3 year stats too, and Randle is ahead of KAT at PF.

and KAT has had to play way more center (it wasn't to way recently when he switched to PF). Playing bigger guys generally results in more shots closer to the rim in terms of shot profile (so contested similar amount of shots per 100 doesn't mean they are contested the same type of shots). More shots closer to the rim are usually more EFF shots.

The stat is how much they hold opponents under their average it already accounts for this.

Just look at KAT's shots at the rim attempts before Gobert got there. They were sometimes 2-3 FGA more than randle for a season.

Yes but if Randle moved to C his FGA defended at the rim would also increase, and at -2% that's not necessarily a good thing.

So the comparison isn't apples to apples. Randle is guarding 4's who are less likely to take shots closer at the rim in his career. KAT has mostly faced centers in his career.

These stats aren't derived from looking at the position they're guarding. It's done by tracking how close a player is between the scorer and the rim, if they're within 3 feet it counts as a basket defended.

As a 4 man you are less likely to have to defend and lob dunks or put backs...ect...shots that have very high EFF FG% shots. The few shots Randle is facing at the rim are probably vs smaller 4's since there aren't that many traditional 4 man in the NBA anymore. So he shouldn't be having to really battle for size and positioning.

So just because Randle has similar FG% at the rim doesn't mean he's a better interior defender...they are going up against completely different size players.

1. I posted last 3 year stats so we can see KAT at PF. It's similar to Randle.
2. The opponent quality and their ability to finish is already taken into account.
3. I'm not saying Randle is better. They're about even. Both of them suck.

[E-Balla]

Team defense is way more important these days then just one shot blocker that roams the paint.

Both are needed to have a championship caliber defense as I showed you. Your example was literally a team with two great rim defenders on it.

The good teams have that floor spacing big that basically takes the guys like Gobert, Gafford, etc out of the paint. We have great wing defenders that can help cover. Plus we still have Mitch coming back so we can mix and match as needed.

Good teams? The best teams last year were Boston (they have KP and Al), Mavs (Lively/Gafford aren't spacing bigs), Denver (Jokic/DAJ and AG aren't spacing bigs), OKC (Chet is a spacing big but they're probably starting Hartenstein at C who isn't), and Minny (Gobert isn't a spacing big).

Every recent team had floor spacing bigs too. That was something we really needed. Randle at 30% from 3 + a non shooting C just wasnt going to be good enough.

So ideally we can play multiple different ways and can match up better against teams like the celtics.

No they didn't. Denver didn't. LA didn't. The Warriors didn't (Looney/McGee/Dray). Cleveland didn't (Thompson).

This is what you think, not objective reality. Reality shows unless you have KP/Horford (two of maybe 8 bigs in the league that both shoot and defend the rim along with JJJ, Wemby, Brook, Myles Turner, Embiid, and Chet) a shooting 5 without a rim defender behind him has never won ****.

The game is played on the court, not in your imagination and the lack of actual teams you can mention here says it all. Like you mentioned the Warriors as if Draymond and Kevon Looney weren't in their starting 5 lol.

He shot 26% from deep last year in the playoffs and Denver was last in 3 point attempts in 2023 and 26th last season. They aren't a shooting team and Jokic isn't a 3 point shooter.

[kNicksGmen]

Did Thibs play Precious the entire 2nd half...insanity!

I still think he fits better with the starters between Towns and OG at PF. Move Hart to the bench (with starter minutes) and a combo of Hart/Shamet/Deuce is a strong enough bench for things to work themselves out most games.

this. makes the team big and long - better defensively and makes up for some lost spacing (is it really that much trading precious for hart?).

Brunson
Bridges
OG
Precious
Towns

The negative to this is then you don't really have a backup big off the bench. Precious can slide there when Towns goes to the bench but if either he or Towns gets in foul trouble it's an issue.

I do think this starting 5 fits better against most teams compared to Hart starting.