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Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets

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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#381 » by E-Balla » Mon Oct 7, 2024 8:51 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:

so KATs best rim defending season in the last 3 years was when he played full time center....

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Nah his best was the first year Gobert got there he was holding opponents to -4.8% at the rim. Last year it was +0.4% so the last 2 year average is bad. He was -3.1% his last year at C. Good try tho.



oh so Randles 3rd year was just egregiously bad....I see...you need to be clearer with your breakdown of your numbers...

You mean KAT? And nah his other two years not far off Jules. Jules the last 3 seasons has been -5.7, +2.0, and -2.5. It varies year to year which is why I usually do 3 year averages and career averages. Overall since KAT moved to center he's over Jules, but that's mostly because of his injury last year (he was -2 before it).
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#382 » by mpharris36 » Mon Oct 7, 2024 8:52 pm

E-Balla wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:Jokic doesn't protect the rim at all and is one of the greatest offensive Centers in history.

Well yes. Denver plays a bunch of big ass players and do a rim protection by committee to cover for Jokic and it works.



He is waaaay more of an offensive C then defensive C. Teams need to cover him everywhere on the floor. Despite his 3 point percentage he is a major threat. Not even sure how that one is debatable.

It's debatable because I watched the playoffs and Olympics. The Wolves won because they started letting him take wide open 3s off the 4/5 PNR with Gordon and he shot 8/34 on open 3 pointers including 4/18 on wide open 3 pointers. It's literally why they lost, I posted a bunch of clips of how KAT and Gobert defended him in the part 2 thread of the KAT trade. Letting Jokic become a shooter, when he's not comfortable shooting, is by far the most proven way to defend him.


they play one elite big type player in Gordon...MPJ has size and is a great shooter I wouldn't call him an impact defender that would cover anything up.

KCP is a good wing defender.

I don't see how OG and Mikal couldn't make a similar impact as those two.
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#383 » by stuporman » Mon Oct 7, 2024 8:59 pm

To be fair...it didn't take great insight to see how bad scam rubbish was, there's no glory in that.
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#384 » by KnixinSix » Mon Oct 7, 2024 9:06 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:Jokic doesn't protect the rim at all and is one of the greatest offensive Centers in history.

Well yes. Denver plays a bunch of big ass players and do a rim protection by committee to cover for Jokic and it works.



He is waaaay more of an offensive C then defensive C. Teams need to cover him everywhere on the floor. Despite his 3 point percentage he is a major threat. Not even sure how that one is debatable.

It's debatable because I watched the playoffs and Olympics. The Wolves won because they started letting him take wide open 3s off the 4/5 PNR with Gordon and he shot 8/34 on open 3 pointers including 4/18 on wide open 3 pointers. It's literally why they lost, I posted a bunch of clips of how KAT and Gobert defended him in the part 2 thread of the KAT trade. Letting Jokic become a shooter, when he's not comfortable shooting, is by far the most proven way to defend him.


they play one elite big type player in Gordon...MPJ has size and is a great shooter I wouldn't call him an impact defender that would cover anything up.

KCP is a good wing defender.

I don't see how OG and Mikal couldn't make a similar impact as those two.


Hart, Bridges, OG are probably the most elite 2-4 defensive trio in the entire NBA. Then put them in a Thibodeau system and it will potentially be a thing of beauty once they all gel in the system and the coaches figure out the best Xs and Os..

Thibs will be evaluating the first part of the season and figuring out the best way to play both offensively and defensively. It may take a few games but the talent is there to succeed in a Thibs system especially.
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#385 » by KnixinSix » Mon Oct 7, 2024 9:10 pm

Knicksfan1992 wrote:I think a lot of the Towns discourse is getting muddied because a lot of people are acting as if this team is being built around him when it's not...

The team is being built around Brunson as he is the best player and a top 5-10 player in the league.

Knicks felt like they needed a stretch big more than they needed a downhill one in Randle next to Brunson to amplify his game IMO. The absence of Mitch for an extended period of time and loss of Hartenstein with no replacement probably played a factor as well but with all the smoke around KAT for years I think they've been targeting him regardless of any injury....

Positional designations aside it's clear the Knicks main 2 fulcrums of offense are going to be Brunson and Towns.

After that, they are clearly trying to target elite guys in Defensive EPM to surround their 2 water carriers offensively. Jeremy Cohen has alluded to this stat multiple times when talking about who the Knicks tend to target and I think he's on to something.. Take a look at the below players as far as percentile rankings of their defensive EPM in 2023-24

J Hart - 83rd percentile
OG Anunoby - 99th percentile
Mikal Bridges - 80th percentile
Precious - 74th Percentile
Hartenstein - 99th percentile

All Leon Rose acquisitions.

Other Leon Rose rumored/confirmed targets

Caruso - 99th percentile
Marcus Smart - 99th percentile
Kessler - 80th percentile

There's a trend I'm sensing...

Mitch is in the 95th percentile which may explain why he is the lone survivor so far from before Leon took over (I don't think for long but who knows)

Weirdly enough Cam Payne, who I think is a pretty good defender, was extremely low in D-EPM last year but he was a minimum signing... Obviously Shamet does not rank highly on D-EPM either but again minimum dart throw. Beggars can't be choosers at that price point and he provides another specialty skill with his shooting.

Point being it seems like the Knicks plan is to have 2 elite offensive guys surrounded by elite defensive role players who hopefully can give a little bit offensively as well. I don't think they are too concerned about whether KAT can play 4 or the 5 IMO. It's likely irrelevant to them as long as they have a stable of elite defenders around him and Brunson who can cover a multitude of positions.


Post of the offseason.

Whether they can execute on this strategy or not can be up for debate but this coaching staff/ front office deserves the benefit of the doubt at this point.
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#386 » by kNicksGmen » Mon Oct 7, 2024 9:12 pm

NoDopeOnSundays wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
mpharris36 wrote:

The sample size of Randle playing the five is basically nothing. I would not hold onto that having any credibility. We weren't going to survive with a 6'8 non shot blocking guy playing a bunch of minutes at the 5...especially one that really doesn't care about playing much defense. Now I'm not also saying KAT is some big time defender...he is not. He is just bigger and the hope is that Thibs can make him at least passable on that end until at least Mitch comes back.

He also played center on the Lakers a lot. All I know is that KAT is disastrous defensively at C and makes Randle look like Mitch. That’s how bad he is.



KAT had a 109.8 DRTG last season playing center, he's not DPOY level but he's good enough. There's not enough numbers on Randle playing C to say he's better at it or can do it full time, if he were good enough Tom would have tried it, like he did with OG guarding Embiid.

there's an obvious agenda in 3toheadmelo's posting. this statement "All I know is that KAT is disastrous defensively at C and makes Randle look like Mitch" - the opposite of that statement is far closer to the truth.
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#387 » by KnixinSix » Mon Oct 7, 2024 9:15 pm

Fat Kat wrote:
Read on Twitter


Defend- thats obvious under Thibs
Rebound - another obvious one
Share the ball- Randle gone , KAT much better here, Bridges excellent at this, you saw it in pre-season game 1
Attack the rim- the spacing will give us this ability and you saw it in preseason game 1
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#388 » by stuporman » Mon Oct 7, 2024 9:26 pm

Randle's 'bully ball' was always overrated, he routinely got bodied by smaller players when he tried to overpower them thinking he had a mismatch and would often push it too far letting it getting into his head leading to frustration fouls.
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#389 » by thebuzzardman » Mon Oct 7, 2024 9:53 pm

stuporman wrote:Randle's 'bully ball' was always overrated, he routinely got bodied by smaller players when he tried to overpower them thinking he had a mismatch and would often push it too far letting it getting into his head leading to frustration fouls.


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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#390 » by HarthorneWingo » Mon Oct 7, 2024 10:08 pm

Context wrote:
HarthorneWingo wrote:
Context wrote:I just got back from Philly.. What did some of you say about Towns?



excuse me?! Brunson to Towns :nod:
Lets go!!!!!

Towns drives to the rim :nod:

Appreciate the thought :D
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#391 » by MrDollarBills » Mon Oct 7, 2024 10:36 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
stuporman wrote:


Comparing Kolek to Mark Price is kinda racist now that I think about it :o

I'm not trying to get canceled before the season begins


True. Everyone knows he's Discount John Stockton.


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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#392 » by 3toheadmelo » Mon Oct 7, 2024 10:41 pm

ctorres wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
ctorres wrote:
Then make OG the 5 when they are playing together, problem solved! :lol:

After some of the great plays we saw with KAT yesterday, I can't believe all the doom and gloom I am seeing on here.

Randle had to work so freaking hard for his buckets. KAT makes it look so easy.

Issue is that if we play OG at the 5, he's gonna get way more banged up and the guy is pretty injury prone. I also don't like how he moved yesterday at all. I firmly believe we need Mitch or any other rim protecting C next to KAT for it to work like the Timberwolves did with Gobert.

I agree that KAT is a more natural scorer than Randle though. For sure. Not much complaints on that end. Would like to see him use the mid range more though like he did earlier in his career. I don't want KAT to mainly be just a 3 point specialist and driving to the rim. He has a whole bag in the mid post that he doesn't use that much anymore.


If this was the 90's, you'd see more mid range from KAT. We have never had a big who could shoot like him though. Compare him and Randle's shot charts from last season.

Image

Image

Why should KAT pull up from midrange when he has been blessed with Curry/Lillard level shooting range for a big man?

Edit: images didn't upload right, I gotta re-do them

The best scorers in the playoffs usually have a mid range game. Like Brunson. Curry/Dame also use the mid range too. You're much easier to guard if you're just shooting 3's.
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#393 » by 3toheadmelo » Mon Oct 7, 2024 10:44 pm

god shammgod wrote:the guy who built the current timberwolves is the guy who built the denver nuggets team with jokic. the timberwolves and the knicks have had similar periods of being inept over the last 2 decades. they just went further last year in a harder conference. we're in no place to criticize them.

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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#394 » by 3toheadmelo » Mon Oct 7, 2024 10:46 pm

Chanel Bomber wrote:
3toheadmelo wrote:
god shammgod wrote:
this place is just like everywhere else, this is discourse in this country nowadays. "i don't want to hear anything i don't fully agree with. and i want the people saying it gone if they don't stop saying it" :lol:

Yep, people can't have debates without being ignorant and disrespectful to the other side. It sucks.

I'm open to being wrong about KAT at the 5 and I'm sure you are too, but apparently if you think it's not gonna work you're just "trolling and rooting him to fail" :lol: like wtf?

I think you should be entitled to voicing your opinion even if it's inconvenient for the broader discourse around the Knicks.

Time will tell who was wrong and who was right, if either even happens in such a simplistic manner. Not that it matters to begin with. Nobody here has proven to be Jerry West.

Dialogue is rare nowadays and that's from all angles. It's regrettable. But dialogue requires listening and it's much easier to sit on one's high horse and judge, condemn, essentially dehumanize, than it is to risk engaging in an open discussion. When people call you "hater", "troll", that's what they essentially do. It's a way to strip you of your voice. You're no longer a rational actor and therefore your freedom of speech deserves to be revoked or punished. It's a totalitarian act.

Now I don't agree with the way you read some of the numbers around KAT, and I think you're decontextualizing his career too much, but that's just basketball talk.

Facts on the bolded.

I do think you are ignoring a lot of data though. Similar to how you hated Jrue Holiday and then he won the chip that same year on the bucks :o
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#395 » by prophet_of_rage » Mon Oct 7, 2024 10:58 pm

Brunson didn't even hit the rollman last year. He rarely passed to Mitch.

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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#396 » by stuporman » Mon Oct 7, 2024 11:12 pm

thebuzzardman wrote:
stuporman wrote:Randle's 'bully ball' was always overrated, he routinely got bodied by smaller players when he tried to overpower them thinking he had a mismatch and would often push it too far letting it getting into his head leading to frustration fouls.


It was like watching judo

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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#397 » by Iron Mantis » Mon Oct 7, 2024 11:21 pm

Deuce > Donte
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#398 » by Capn'O » Mon Oct 7, 2024 11:23 pm

stuporman wrote:To be fair...it didn't take great insight to see how bad scam rubbish was, there's no glory in that.


Right. That's why I chose to stick to obscenities with him rather than dive into the numbers. That **** guy. Drifter.
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#399 » by E-Balla » Mon Oct 7, 2024 11:25 pm

mpharris36 wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Deeeez Knicks wrote:Jokic doesn't protect the rim at all and is one of the greatest offensive Centers in history.

Well yes. Denver plays a bunch of big ass players and do a rim protection by committee to cover for Jokic and it works.



He is waaaay more of an offensive C then defensive C. Teams need to cover him everywhere on the floor. Despite his 3 point percentage he is a major threat. Not even sure how that one is debatable.

It's debatable because I watched the playoffs and Olympics. The Wolves won because they started letting him take wide open 3s off the 4/5 PNR with Gordon and he shot 8/34 on open 3 pointers including 4/18 on wide open 3 pointers. It's literally why they lost, I posted a bunch of clips of how KAT and Gobert defended him in the part 2 thread of the KAT trade. Letting Jokic become a shooter, when he's not comfortable shooting, is by far the most proven way to defend him.


they play one elite big type player in Gordon...MPJ has size and is a great shooter I wouldn't call him an impact defender that would cover anything up.

KCP is a good wing defender.

I don't see how OG and Mikal couldn't make a similar impact as those two.

OG and Mikal haven't had that impact to their point in their career and Thibs defensive system looked like his norm yesterday. It's a possibility, but certainly not a probability. Thibs already said he's ready for Mitch to be back doesn't look like that's the long term plan.
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Re: Postgame thread: Knicks @ Hornets 

Post#400 » by E-Balla » Mon Oct 7, 2024 11:28 pm

stuporman wrote:To be fair...it didn't take great insight to see how bad scam rubbish was, there's no glory in that.

I'm not special, I just watch a lot of basketball. :lol:

Don't take much to describe what you've seen with your own eyes.

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