Retro Player of the Year 1977-78 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[One_and_Done]

Kareem was healthy for 100% of the playoffs, whereas Walton was unhealthy or absent for 100%.

[Dr Positivity]

Also did I read right that someone had Elvin Hayes over Gilmore in defense?

I think at some point Gilmore becomes too slow to be top 3 caliber anymore, but not sure when. I'm less willing to give him benefit of the doubt on a lotto team, and Hayes D is really good.

[capfan33]

Kareem was healthy for 100% of the playoffs, whereas Walton was unhealthy or absent for 100%.

But their results were basically identical and it’s not like Kareem even played that well (by his standards). Moreover as I said it’s not entirely clear that Kareem was even a better player in a vacuum this year (ofc health is a major tiebreaker in his favor).

And otherwise an Engima pointed out, Walton’s regular season results were also more impressive. If Kareem had a run like he did in 79 I would prob go with him but as is I think Walton should be over him given the criteria of this project. Putting him 5th is not defensible.

Also Hayes may have been the best defender of the 70s, putting him above Gilmore shouldn’t be controversial at all even though Gilmore was an all-timer in his own right.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 2nd Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. Missed 20 games but when he was on the court he was undoubtedly the best player in the world and it wasn't close. He lost in the 1st round to the eventual West champs Sonics and 1979 NBA champions while playing very well. Averaged 25.8/12.9/4.3 on 58.9 %TS (+7.4 rTS) in the RS and then 27.0/13.7/3.7 on 52.6 %TS (+2.1 rTS) in the PS. Not the best season ever but this is a year with slim pickings and Kareem still feels like the cream of the crop.

2. Elvin Hayes - For some bizarre reason, Hayes didn't make any major accolade this year despite being 1st Team All-NBA in both the year prior and the year following. He also had a strong PS where he led the Bullets to a championship. You can pretty much pencil Hayes in for at least a 20/12 game with good defense and that archetype of big man is valuable. And unlike the next big guy on this list, you could count on Hayes to play in every game. He averaged 19.7/13.3/1.8 on 48.9 %TS (-2.6 rTS) in the RS and then 21.8/13.3/2.0 on 51.5 %TS (+0.5 rTS) in the PS. I just don't see him in the same tier as Kareem as a player so I can't put him #1 here as much as I'd like to.

3. George Gervin - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd in MVP voting. The Iceman has become a force in the NBA scoring at high volume with high efficiency and showed himself capable of anchoring an elite offense. The Spurs were the #2 offense in the league despite not too much offensive talent around their star. Gervin had a brilliant individual playoff run and took them to the ECF where they lost to the eventual champion Bullets. He averaged 27.2/5.1/3.7 on 59.4 %TS (+7.9 rTS) in the RS then 33.2/5.7/3.2 on 59.7 %TS (+9.3 rTS) in the PS.

4. Bill Walton - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. MVP. Walton was well on his way to an easy POY at the helm of a dominant Blazers team and then he got hurt. Really hurt. Not only did he miss 24 games but he couldn't make it much of a go in the postseason either and in fact his career as a superstar was finished. Really sad that he loses so much value (missing the PS is a big knock) but I still see him on the ballot upon further examination and decided he fits around here. Averaged 18.9/13.2/5.0 on 55.4 %TS (+3.9 rTS) in the RS.

5. Julius Erving - 1st Team All-NBA. The Sixers kept their amalgam of scorers and the results were ok with the #1 offense in the league led by the Doctor. The defense was disappointing and so their playoff run was uninspiring. Even the Doctor's individual numbers and impact numbers were subdued. Thanks to Harvey Pollack's Sixers Guide, we have his plus minus. He averaged 20.6/6.5/3.8 on 55.5 %TS (+4.0 rTS) in the RS with +4.6 ON +4.4 OFF +0.2 ON-OFF and then 21.8/9.7/4.0 on 53.3 %TS (+2.2 rTS) in the PS with +3.0 ON +11.1 OFF, -8.1 ON-OFF. He didn't look like a big impact player but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

HM: David Thompson - he could take Erving's spot.

OPOY

1. George Gervin - Crazy scoring especially in the playoffs.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3. Julius Erving - Good combo of scoring and playmaking.

DPOY

1. Elvin Hayes - Many more games played than Walton plus a strong playoff run beats Walton's greater impact.

2. Bill Walton

3. Bobby Jones - Not a high minutes player but super impactful on D.

[AEnigma]

Thanks to Harvey Pollack's Sixers Guide, we have his plus minus. He averaged 20.6/6.5/3.8 on 55.5 %TS (+4.0 rTS) in the RS with +4.6 ON +4.4 OFF +0.2 ON-OFF and then 21.8/9.7/4.0 on 53.3 %TS (+2.2 rTS) in the PS with +3.0 ON +11.1 OFF, -8.1 ON-OFF.

Do you have a resource for the postseason data? I have only ever seen it for either the regular season or in aggregate.

[Djoker]

Thanks to Harvey Pollack's Sixers Guide, we have his plus minus. He averaged 20.6/6.5/3.8 on 55.5 %TS (+4.0 rTS) in the RS with +4.6 ON +4.4 OFF +0.2 ON-OFF and then 21.8/9.7/4.0 on 53.3 %TS (+2.2 rTS) in the PS with +3.0 ON +11.1 OFF, -8.1 ON-OFF.

Do you have a resource for the postseason data? I have only ever seen it for either the regular season or in aggregate.

Both RS and PS numbers are from the 1978-79 Sixers Media Guide.

[AEnigma]

Thanks to Harvey Pollack's Sixers Guide, we have his plus minus. He averaged 20.6/6.5/3.8 on 55.5 %TS (+4.0 rTS) in the RS with +4.6 ON +4.4 OFF +0.2 ON-OFF and then 21.8/9.7/4.0 on 53.3 %TS (+2.2 rTS) in the PS with +3.0 ON +11.1 OFF, -8.1 ON-OFF.

Do you have a resource for the postseason data? I have only ever seen it for either the regular season or in aggregate.

Both RS and PS numbers are from the 1978-79 Sixers Media Guide.

Thanks. Would appreciate if you make a point of mentioning the postseason numbers going forward for applicable ballot players (or otherwise link a compilation of them).

[Djoker]

Do you have a resource for the postseason data? I have only ever seen it for either the regular season or in aggregate.

Both RS and PS numbers are from the 1978-79 Sixers Media Guide.

Thanks. Would appreciate if you make a point of mentioning the postseason numbers going forward for applicable ballot players (or otherwise link a compilation of them).

Unfortunately I don't have the other guides/screenshots until the 90's. There were a couple of posters on here (think ceiling raiser) that had all the guides. The Sixers Excel here...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZxRM9p2dFil5w6s21VEB4HnQZJymEY8_2vej-jREuUo/edit?gid=1591305361#gid=1591305361

...has all the RS numbers but not the PS numbers. For some reason those weren't calculated. If someone posted the screenshots I'd love to calculate the PS numbers for Sixers legends like Erving, Moses, Barkley...

[OhayoKD]

1. Bill Walton

Don't really care for Kareem's marginal advantage in terms of games/minutes played and am not to keen on penalizing for the timing of injuries. He has the best 1-/2-year signals of the decade, strongly resembles the guy who rightly dominated the last decade in poy voting and I'd need to have seen more from Kareem vs the sonics for his playoffs to sway me.

2. Kareem Abdul Jabbar

By default more than anything. Am tempted to go Hayes but I feel that would be more a matter of voter fatigue and rings than a genuine belief they are peers in terms of making teams better.

3. Elvin Hayes

In a weak year, a bit odd given this is post-merger, Hayes is leading the best team,is at least a secondary if not primary paint-protector, he scores 20, and had a historically impressive rookie signal before proceeded to basically never miss games. That is enough for third in my book.

4. George Gervin

27 points scored efficiently leading the third best team in the league. A few reservations voting someone who did not lead his team in minutes (only averaged 34) but in the postseason he averages 4 minutes more than anyone else and averages 33 on similar efficiency. No solid signals but the team going 2-4 without him the next years is at least a loose indicator of high impact.

5. David Thompson

Also averages 27 points on strong efficiency in the regular season but his scoring doesn't hold up in the playoffs and I imagine that contributes to the Nuggets not doing as well as the Spurs.

[falcolombardi]

Kareem who is your 1st pick played all of 4 more regular seasons games than walton and got all of 3 playoffs games played, what are we even doing here lol

The missed playoff games are meaningful to me and it helps that I rate him as a better player to begin with.

If your real reason is that you think kareem is better just say that

Bringing up how one played 1 game more in the playoffs just comes of as ridiculously arbitrary

[Narigo]

1.. Kareem Abdul Jabbar- missed a number of games but a clear 1 mostly due to impact

2. Bill Walton- slightly missed more games than Kareem and also missed the playoffs. Like Kareem there's a gap between him and the next best guy

3. Julius Erving- Just like 1977, he plays with other volume scorers so his stats does not look good like it in. ABA but he definitely makes Philly a better team

4. George Gervin- probably one of most underrated scorers ever. Has a efficient RS and then takes it up a notch in PS scoring 33ba game

5. David Thompson

[ShaqAttac]

WALTON
most impact and a 14 percent WOWY and he wins MVP. really good passer and maybe 2nd best D EVER

HAYES
wins the chip, great d and scores 20 too,

KAREEM
good rs but chokes in the first round.

GERVIN
almost beats the champs scoring alot and putting big numbers in rs and pos.

WESTPHAL
also puts up big numbers in the rs and pos.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 11 voters: Djoker, AEnigma, Dr. Positivity, Penbeast, One_and_Done, capfan33, ShaqAttac, OhayoKD, trex_8063, Narigo, and trelos. Penbeast, One_and_Done, OhayoKD, ShaqAttac, and Narigo abstained from voting for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1977-78 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — George Gervin

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. George Gervin  5   1   0    28    0.933
2. Paul Westphal   1   2   0   11    0.367
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  0   2   2    8   0.267
4. David Thompson   0   1   3    6    0.200
5. Julius Erving   0   0   1    1    0.033

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Bill Walton (2)

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Bill Walton    2   4   0    22    0.733
2. Elvin Hayes    3   1   1    19    0.633
3. Bobby Jones    1   0   1    6    0.200
4. Gar Heard    0   1   1    4    0.133
5. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  0   0   2    2   0.067
6. Marvin Webster    0   0   1    1    0.033

Retro Player of the Year — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (8)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 6 4 1 0 0   93   0.845
2. Bill Walton  5  3  0  1  1   75   0.682
3. George Gervin  0  0  5  6  0   43   0.391
4. Elvin Hayes  0  3  3  1  1   40   0.364
5. Julius Erving  0  0  2  3  1   20    0.182
6. Artis Gilmore   0  1  0  0  0   7   0.064
7. David Thompson   0  0  0  0  4   4   0.036
8. Paul Westphal  0  0  0  0  3   3   0.027
9. Bobby Jones   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.009

In the prior project, there were 16 votes, with Dr. Positivity overlapping. With his prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 26 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 13 6 5 1 1   201   0.773
2. Bill Walton  7  11  2  2  1   164   0.631
3. George Gervin  6  2  12  6  0   152   0.585
4. Elvin Hayes  0  4  3  1  4   50   0.192
5. David Thompson   0  1  1  10  6   48   0.185
6. Julius Erving  0  1  3  6  3   43    0.165
7. Artis Gilmore   0  1  0  0  0   7   0.027
8. Paul Westphal  0  0  0  0  3   3   0.012
8. Bob Lanier  0  0  0  0  3   3   0.012
10. Walter Davis   0  0  0  0  2   2   0.008
10. Bob McAdoo   0  0  0  0  2   2   0.008
12. Bobby Jones   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.004

1979 thread will open shortly.

[trex_8063]

.

Shucks.....looks like I just missed the deadline (unless you want to add this). fwiw, this was the voting post I was working on:


I think the two best players in the rs [by far] are Kareem and Walton. Both missed sort of significant rs games (Kareem 20, Walton 24).
Kareem has the more impressive individual numbers [kinda by far], Walton has the more impressive impact signals. Impact signals are there for both, however: the Lakers were on pace for nearly 49 wins when Kareem played, but <33 wins when he was out (that's despite Jamaal Wilkes missing a significant chunk of the games Kareem played in, while being present for most of those Kareem missed); the Blazers were on pace for nearly 68 wins when Walton played, and just over 34 wins when he was out.

In the playoffs, Kareem was healthy (though struggled slightly in their 3-game series), while Walton was not.


Gervin feels like the 3rd-best player in the rs, though guys like Thompson, Erving, +/- Hayes deserve a look. I like Ice-Man, though......while a bit turnover-prone, he averages a league-best ppg on outstanding shooting efficiency while anchoring the 2nd-best offense in the league. He then has a pretty amazing 6-game series against the eventual champs, while his team sort of underperformed. Gervin also didn’t miss a single game.

David Thompson has a very nice year, as well, though I peg him just a pinch below Gervin this year, based on a slightly lesser team ORtg (I don’t feel like Gervin had better offensive help, considering Thompson has Issel and Bobby Jones) and a lesser performance in the playoffs.

Hayes is my presumed primary anchor of the Bullet defense who also scores nearly 20 ppg (up to nearly 22 ppg on actual decent shooting efficiency in the playoffs, as part of a title run). So he gets serious consideration.

Paul Westphal has a very nice offensive year, and an awfully big showing in [ahem] 2 playoff games. Certainly will get consideration for OPOY (though the fact that the Suns had a mediocre offense between him and Walter Davis and Alvan Adams is a bit of a black mark).
Suns were a great defense; hard to parse out credit, I feel like it was a bit of an ensemble effort. Certainly Don Buse gets some: terrific defensive reputation, leads team in steals (2.3 in just 31 mpg, and opp TOV% was an area they excelled). Gar Heard is very solid (though only 26 mpg this year). I think Alvan Adams is a bit better than he’s generally credited for (maybe Westphal, too).

Erving of course in Philly; he has a nice playoff run, but the rest of his team does not. Gilmore in Chicago, too, though I think his defense is slowing down by this point. He’s much like Dwight Howard, imo, in that he relied heavily on his athleticism. But he’s just not as quick off the ground as he was a few years ago, which hurts if you’re not fundamentally sound defensively (which I’ve seen enough of Gilmore to suggest that he wasn’t: i.e. not consistently boxing out, leaving feet for one block attempt and landing under the basket and CAMPING there to try and time another block attempt rather than getting back into defensive position, etc).


OPOY
1. George Gervin
2. David Thompson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
HM: Westphal, Erving

DPOY
1. Bill Walton
2. Elvin Hayes
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
HM: Don Buse, Bobby Jones

Player of the Year
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Walton
3. George Gervin
4. Julius Erving
5. Elvin Hayes
HM: David Thompson, Paul Westphal

[AEnigma]

Shucks.....looks like I just missed the deadline. fwiw, this was the voting post I was working on:

Off by twenty minutes, you are fine. Will edit it in.