GT Preseason Game #1: Sun Oct 6th, Wizards vs Raptors in Montreal, 7:30pm ET, TSN 4/5

[ATLTimekeeper]

Personally I don't think the Raptors bought the pick because they believed in his vast potential, but rather bought it because he was a long-term development piece they could use to sell a rebuild with AND to make history as the first prospect taken out of the BAL (right from the city in the country of Masai's dictator buddy, where Masai has business development plans).

If the Raptors really thought they had something they would have taken him earlier. This is another Bruno experiment. We're back to teasing the fanbase. My judgement right now is based on the player he currently is, and if he shows impressive strides reading the game in the 905, then I'll start to feel better about his chances at eventually cracking a rotation. Right now the coaches and players are pretty much orchestrating his every move.

It doesn't have to be one thing or the other. It can be a pick that sells tickets (or stories) or meets some other strategic goal while also being a legit basketball pick. Masai has been guiding the development of African basketball for a long time, and he believes that in the coming years Africa will produce more and more good NBA players. Which seems to be happening. Of course he wants to encourage this, and also of course he is keen to be the one who takes most advantage of it. He has probably watched Chomche since he was a kid so why not take a flyer on him? Especially since Masai loves those long, fast, 2-way guys who can handle the ball. As for teasing the fan base, every 58th pick is a tease. Doesn't mean Chomche wasn't a perfectly good pick as far as any 58th pick can be.

Chomche is long and fast, but he isn't a two way guy that can handle the ball. You can see him relegated to pass only/dunk only when the ball is in his hands.

I'm not complaining that we spent the 58th pick on him, or that we bought a pick at all. I am stating the obvious. This is a flier at the end of the draft. You don't believe in those players. You take them and cut them a year later and no one notices or cares. There is a raw African dream scenario prospect in every draft, usually more than one. This is the one we're looking forward to. As a Raptor fan, I hope we luck out here. Masai has been in charge of the Raptors draft for a decade now, and he hasn't bothered to throw down the chump change to draft any of these prospects. I think he's drafted one player outside of the NCAA (Bruno).

[nikster]

Sorry, meant to say 2nd rounder. And for sure, the odds are heavily against him becoming a rotation player. I was just pushing back against the notion that he was only drafted because Masai wanted an African to hear his name. Don’t think that part is necessary to make the point you’re making, which is very valid.

I believe the difference between using a SRE (second round exception) vs part of the MLE in terms of contract.

He signed a 2 way contract, he could have done that as a udfa, there was no benefit contract wise in trading then drafting him, vs him going udfa.
(Benefit was getting his rights if he was going overseas, but with him signing no benefit)

Don't the rights give us leverage in signing a deal? If raptors want to sign him as an free agent then any team in the league could offer him a similar contract with no guarantee he comes here

[ForeverTFC]

I believe the difference between using a SRE (second round exception) vs part of the MLE in terms of contract.

He signed a 2 way contract, he could have done that as a udfa, there was no benefit contract wise in trading then drafting him, vs him going udfa.
(Benefit was getting his rights if he was going overseas, but with him signing no benefit)

Don't the rights give us leverage in signing a deal? If raptors want to sign him as an free agent then any team in the league could offer him a similar contract with no guarantee he comes here

Yes, though most players drafted mid to late 2nd round have already negotiated with the team they're going to join. So very likely, he had said he wanted to be here or else they wouldn't have drafted him.

With that said, there is no guarantee that 1) he would have signed with us an UDFA if he had more options and 2) he would have lasted until 58 if another team offered to draft him higher, even if he preferred us. We'll never know the full story. But it's very plausible that either he had other options as an UDFA OR that he preferred to be in Toronto but wanted to be drafted.

[Morse Code]

Having watched Carlson in summer league, I'm fairly comfortable going this direction. Koloko can't shoot, Carlson can. Not only that, but Koloko hasn't played in over a year and his problem could always come back.

Carlson is a year older but feels like less of a project that Koloko is. I see a role for him as a floor spacing big who does contest shots and is around the basket fighting for rebounds actively.

Koloko has zero touch offensively. At that point you'd better be a good rebounder and elite shot blocker...and I'm not sure I have seen any evidence of it despite his pre-draft billing.

Koloko had the best DRTG of any rookie IIRC in his rookie season and was getting 2.6 blocks per 36 (and was elite blocking shots in College). He was certainly projected to be a very, very good rim protector in the NBA.

Carlson is as much of a project as Koloko was. He has no where near the defensive abilities or profile, is a full year older, has less NBA experience, worse draft capital, etc. and does not really look like he is going to be a guy who can contest shots well nor is he projecting to be a good rebounder at the C position.

Carlsons path to NBA minutes is becoming an absolute sniper from 3. So far, that has not happened but he certainly has the form.

Obviously we have no idea the circumstances surrounding Koloko going to LAL, but if we had the option to bring him in and just didn't to keep a guy like Carlson that IMO is disappointing.

Disagree with all of this. Must be watching different games

Sent from my LG-H873 using RealGM mobile app

[YogurtProducer]

Carlson is a year older but feels like less of a project that Koloko is. I see a role for him as a floor spacing big who does contest shots and is around the basket fighting for rebounds actively.

Koloko has zero touch offensively. At that point you'd better be a good rebounder and elite shot blocker...and I'm not sure I have seen any evidence of it despite his pre-draft billing.

Koloko had the best DRTG of any rookie IIRC in his rookie season and was getting 2.6 blocks per 36 (and was elite blocking shots in College). He was certainly projected to be a very, very good rim protector in the NBA.

Carlson is as much of a project as Koloko was. He has no where near the defensive abilities or profile, is a full year older, has less NBA experience, worse draft capital, etc. and does not really look like he is going to be a guy who can contest shots well nor is he projecting to be a good rebounder at the C position.

Carlsons path to NBA minutes is becoming an absolute sniper from 3. So far, that has not happened but he certainly has the form.

Obviously we have no idea the circumstances surrounding Koloko going to LAL, but if we had the option to bring him in and just didn't to keep a guy like Carlson that IMO is disappointing.

Disagree with all of this. Must be watching different games

Sent from my LG-H873 using RealGM mobile app

Pretty mind blowing to think Carlson is a superior prospect to Koloko unless you think his sickness completely removed his ability to be mobile which seems unlikely.

But I agree - we are watching vastly different games if you think Carlson is a good prospect. He is about as replaceable of a pickup as you can possibly get in the NBA. A 25 year old undrafted rookie. Pretty much the definition of zero value.

[deck]

I am perfectly fine with the organization spending the non-cap dollars to buy the Chomche pick if for nothing more than to grow our relationship with NBA Africa Academy.

I really like Chomche as a prospect. He has legitimate size to play the centre position, has excellent agility and speed, and has good form on his jumper. He's a massive project, to be sure, but in two years he will still be younger than a lot of players drafted this year.

I think we should park him in the 905, let him train at OVO as a paid professional athlete, and see what our internal development can do with him.

[Shakril]

The same thing we do every night, Ninjabro.





Argue about tanking.

After the game against the Wizards any fantasy about tanking should be laid to rest. We wont outtank teams like the Wizards unless we dont play BBQ + Jak -> which is contraproductive to the development of BBQ.

The 3rd worst team still has the exact same odds of finishing with a top 4 pick that the worst team does. With the new lottery odds you don’t have to be the absolute worst team anymore.

We also don’t need Poeltl if the focus is on development. If we need a C that can screen, pass and bang with bigger bodies (to save our other guys) then we can just play Olynyk. If we didn’t have a backup C then I could see the reasoning for Poeltl (as far as development goes) but Olynyk can provide probably an even healthier offensive environment for BBQ with his floor spacing. Guys can still develop defensively as long as they make the right play, even if Olynyk might botch it on the backend. I’ve still never heard a good argument as to why we need Poeltl (for strictly development reasons). If we want to win we need him almost as much as anyone but if development is the plan then Olynyk is a fine stop gap.

You are missing my point.

I have not argued, that the Wizards will be worse than us. I have argued, that we will not be able to outtank tanking teams. Wizards, Blazers, Jazz, Nets, Pistons are just the top 5 i believe. We are not talking about if we finished 2nd or 3rd worst, we are argueing in the range of 7th to 14th worst. There the odds are much worse. Thats why i said, that every discussion about tanking is at this point just a sign of not understanding where we are. The only way to get better odds would be essentially sitting BBQ + Poeltl for many games and sabotaging every game just to lose. And that is contraproductive to the development of BBQ and pisses them off. It would just show them, that the organization does not trust them to be good.

Furthermore, It does matter if the screens are good or not, it does matter if you are a good passer or a simple passer, it does matter if you can trust your big on defense or not, it does matter if you are efficent on offense or not.
Reliability is actually one of the most important parts, if you want to develop Players. It gives those Players stability and security they should have to concentrate on their own game. It is not exactly good for development, if BBQ cant focus on their game, cause they have no reliable Big to anchor the defense.
At worst if Barnes is forced to play the 5 for example. Olynyk is nice from the bench, but he is far from a reliable Big that you can count on. Players develop better, when they have good Players around them.

[ConSarnit]

After the game against the Wizards any fantasy about tanking should be laid to rest. We wont outtank teams like the Wizards unless we dont play BBQ + Jak -> which is contraproductive to the development of BBQ.

The 3rd worst team still has the exact same odds of finishing with a top 4 pick that the worst team does. With the new lottery odds you don’t have to be the absolute worst team anymore.

We also don’t need Poeltl if the focus is on development. If we need a C that can screen, pass and bang with bigger bodies (to save our other guys) then we can just play Olynyk. If we didn’t have a backup C then I could see the reasoning for Poeltl (as far as development goes) but Olynyk can provide probably an even healthier offensive environment for BBQ with his floor spacing. Guys can still develop defensively as long as they make the right play, even if Olynyk might botch it on the backend. I’ve still never heard a good argument as to why we need Poeltl (for strictly development reasons). If we want to win we need him almost as much as anyone but if development is the plan then Olynyk is a fine stop gap.

You are missing my point.

I have not argued, that the Wizards will be worse than us. I have argued, that we will not be able to outtank tanking teams. Wizards, Blazers, Jazz, Nets, Pistons are just the top 5 i believe. We are not talking about if we finished 2nd or 3rd worst, we are argueing in the range of 7th to 14th worst. There the odds are much worse. Thats why i said, that every discussion about tanking is at this point just a sign of not understanding where we are. The only way to get better odds would be essentially sitting BBQ + Poeltl for many games and sabotaging every game just to lose. And that is contraproductive to the development of BBQ and pisses them off. It would just show them, that the organization does not trust them to be good.

Furthermore, It does matter if the screens are good or not, it does matter if you are a good passer or a simple passer, it does matter if you can trust your big on defense or not, it does matter if you are efficent on offense or not.
Reliability is actually one of the most important parts, if you want to develop Players. It gives those Players stability and security they should have to concentrate on their own game. It is not exactly good for development, if BBQ cant focus on their game, cause they have no reliable Big to anchor the defense.
At worst if Barnes is forced to play the 5 for example. Olynyk is nice from the bench, but he is far from a reliable Big that you can count on. Players develop better, when they have good Players around them.

Who cares if we don't trust them to be good? They haven't proven anything. If the entire thing falls apart because of getting rid of Poeltl then how good is BBQ in the first place? If they can't carry the team at some middling level then that only proves we need more high level help.

Almost everything you listed are things Olynyk does well: Screen. Pass. Scores Efficiently. And he can stretch the floor. Show me any evidence players need a defensive big behind them for development. Why would not having a reliable anchor on defense cause them not to be able to perform? Is there any evidence of player's overall play declining due to poor rim protection? How does it stop BBQ from performing their assigned roles on defense? Defense is about system and effort. Removing one piece of it is not an excuse for BBQ to slack and if they do then that brings about questions about their abilities/drive.

What about the benefits of having a 3pt shooting big? That is a bigger boost on offense for BBQ than anything Poeltl can provide. Barnes is going to have to play at the 5 some of the time. He's strong and he's a good rim protector and help defender. He's going to get some minutes there, even if it's just 5mpg. Otherwise Olynyk plays C and we can bring in a stopgap like Biyombo to play 12mpg.

The main point: if we were going to trade Poeltl it would not hurt the long term development of this team. Olynyk is the ideal stopgap C for a tanking team: puts your players in an optimized offensive environment, is a big body that can save Barnes from having to bang with big centers AND doesn't effect wins because he's bad defensively.

As for tanking and odds: it is still much better to be the 6th worst team than the 10th worst team. I would add that there is also no guarantee we are better than either the Blazers or Pistons. DET actually has a bunch of depth and POR isn't that far off from us depending on Scoot's development. I think there is a some chance (mind you not a great one) we finish below 1 of those teams (it's unlikely to be worse than both).

[Reeko]

Personally I don't think the Raptors bought the pick because they believed in his vast potential, but rather bought it because he was a long-term development piece they could use to sell a rebuild with AND to make history as the first prospect taken out of the BAL (right from the city in the country of Masai's dictator buddy, where Masai has business development plans).

If the Raptors really thought they had something they would have taken him earlier. This is another Bruno experiment. We're back to teasing the fanbase. My judgement right now is based on the player he currently is, and if he shows impressive strides reading the game in the 905, then I'll start to feel better about his chances at eventually cracking a rotation. Right now the coaches and players are pretty much orchestrating his every move.

It doesn't have to be one thing or the other. It can be a pick that sells tickets (or stories) or meets some other strategic goal while also being a legit basketball pick. Masai has been guiding the development of African basketball for a long time, and he believes that in the coming years Africa will produce more and more good NBA players. Which seems to be happening. Of course he wants to encourage this, and also of course he is keen to be the one who takes most advantage of it. He has probably watched Chomche since he was a kid so why not take a flyer on him? Especially since Masai loves those long, fast, 2-way guys who can handle the ball. As for teasing the fan base, every 58th pick is a tease. Doesn't mean Chomche wasn't a perfectly good pick as far as any 58th pick can be.

Chomche is long and fast, but he isn't a two way guy that can handle the ball. You can see him relegated to pass only/dunk only when the ball is in his hands.

I'm not complaining that we spent the 58th pick on him, or that we bought a pick at all. I am stating the obvious. This is a flier at the end of the draft. You don't believe in those players. You take them and cut them a year later and no one notices or cares. There is a raw African dream scenario prospect in every draft, usually more than one. This is the one we're looking forward to. As a Raptor fan, I hope we luck out here. Masai has been in charge of the Raptors draft for a decade now, and he hasn't bothered to throw down the chump change to draft any of these prospects. I think he's drafted one player outside of the NCAA (Bruno).

We saw in summer league that Chomche can handle the ball and even make good reads while handling it on the break. I don’t think that they are simply taking a flier on him with the intention of cutting him after a year or two. I think that he’s 18 years old and that although he’s still relatively new to the game he still has rare set of attributes that if fully developed and realized make him one of the most intriguing young centers in the league. I also don’t buy the notion that Masai just drafted him to be the first player drafted out of Africa.

[ATLTimekeeper]

It doesn't have to be one thing or the other. It can be a pick that sells tickets (or stories) or meets some other strategic goal while also being a legit basketball pick. Masai has been guiding the development of African basketball for a long time, and he believes that in the coming years Africa will produce more and more good NBA players. Which seems to be happening. Of course he wants to encourage this, and also of course he is keen to be the one who takes most advantage of it. He has probably watched Chomche since he was a kid so why not take a flyer on him? Especially since Masai loves those long, fast, 2-way guys who can handle the ball. As for teasing the fan base, every 58th pick is a tease. Doesn't mean Chomche wasn't a perfectly good pick as far as any 58th pick can be.

Chomche is long and fast, but he isn't a two way guy that can handle the ball. You can see him relegated to pass only/dunk only when the ball is in his hands.

I'm not complaining that we spent the 58th pick on him, or that we bought a pick at all. I am stating the obvious. This is a flier at the end of the draft. You don't believe in those players. You take them and cut them a year later and no one notices or cares. There is a raw African dream scenario prospect in every draft, usually more than one. This is the one we're looking forward to. As a Raptor fan, I hope we luck out here. Masai has been in charge of the Raptors draft for a decade now, and he hasn't bothered to throw down the chump change to draft any of these prospects. I think he's drafted one player outside of the NCAA (Bruno).

We saw in summer league that Chomche can handle the ball and even make good reads while handling it on the break. I don’t think that they are simply taking a flier on him with the intention of cutting him after a year or two. I think that he’s 18 years old and that although he’s still relatively new to the game he still has rare set of attributes that if fully developed and realized make him one of the most intriguing young centers in the league. I also don’t buy the notion that Masai just drafted him to be the first player drafted out of Africa.

We saw in summer league that he took the ball one time coast to coast in a straight line, but botched the dunk. That's not evidence of good ballhandling. Maybe courage? Speed?

As for his potential, again just think about all the players that come into the league from the second round. Think about how few of them succeed, and then think about the type of player that tends to succeed from the 2nd round (or UDFA). I think if Chomche played 2000 minutes in his career he'd be the first ever that inexperienced to do so. While I don't think the Raptors solely view Chomche as a PR selection, I think they also don't view him as one of the most intriguing young centers in the game. They would have had him a lot higher on their board and not risked someone else scooping him.

[YogurtProducer]

Who cares if we don't trust them to be good? They haven't proven anything. If the entire thing falls apart because of getting rid of Poeltl then how good is BBQ in the first place? If they can't carry the team at some middling level then that only proves we need more high level help.

.

Because this not NBA 2k. There are real people you are discussing with rational (or irrational) thoughts and feelings that you have to keep considering.

[Reeko]

Chomche is long and fast, but he isn't a two way guy that can handle the ball. You can see him relegated to pass only/dunk only when the ball is in his hands.

I'm not complaining that we spent the 58th pick on him, or that we bought a pick at all. I am stating the obvious. This is a flier at the end of the draft. You don't believe in those players. You take them and cut them a year later and no one notices or cares. There is a raw African dream scenario prospect in every draft, usually more than one. This is the one we're looking forward to. As a Raptor fan, I hope we luck out here. Masai has been in charge of the Raptors draft for a decade now, and he hasn't bothered to throw down the chump change to draft any of these prospects. I think he's drafted one player outside of the NCAA (Bruno).

We saw in summer league that Chomche can handle the ball and even make good reads while handling it on the break. I don’t think that they are simply taking a flier on him with the intention of cutting him after a year or two. I think that he’s 18 years old and that although he’s still relatively new to the game he still has rare set of attributes that if fully developed and realized make him one of the most intriguing young centers in the league. I also don’t buy the notion that Masai just drafted him to be the first player drafted out of Africa.

We saw in summer league that he took the ball one time coast to coast in a straight line, but botched the dunk. That's not evidence of good ballhandling. Maybe courage? Speed?

As for his potential, again just think about all the players that come into the league from the second round. Think about how few of them succeed, and then think about the type of player that tends to succeed from the 2nd round (or UDFA). I think if Chomche played 2000 minutes in his career he'd be the first ever that inexperienced to do so. While I don't think the Raptors solely view Chomche as a PR selection, I think they also don't view him as one of the most intriguing young centers in the game. They would have had him a lot higher on their board and not risked someone else scooping him.

Is that all you saw? You didn't see him lead the break and hit someone with a beautiful bounce pass?

Guys fall for different reasons. Maybe his inexperience scared teams off. Maybe teams knew he wanted to go to the Raptors. Or maybe other team's scouts just didn't see him enough to understand how good he might be with proper development. I think the organization has really high hopes for the kid, I know I do after seeing how he performed in summer league. We won't know what we have for at least another 2 or 3 seasons, but I'd be lying if I said that the flashes he showed on both ends of the floor don't have me very excited for his future.

[ATLTimekeeper]

We saw in summer league that Chomche can handle the ball and even make good reads while handling it on the break. I don’t think that they are simply taking a flier on him with the intention of cutting him after a year or two. I think that he’s 18 years old and that although he’s still relatively new to the game he still has rare set of attributes that if fully developed and realized make him one of the most intriguing young centers in the league. I also don’t buy the notion that Masai just drafted him to be the first player drafted out of Africa.

We saw in summer league that he took the ball one time coast to coast in a straight line, but botched the dunk. That's not evidence of good ballhandling. Maybe courage? Speed?

As for his potential, again just think about all the players that come into the league from the second round. Think about how few of them succeed, and then think about the type of player that tends to succeed from the 2nd round (or UDFA). I think if Chomche played 2000 minutes in his career he'd be the first ever that inexperienced to do so. While I don't think the Raptors solely view Chomche as a PR selection, I think they also don't view him as one of the most intriguing young centers in the game. They would have had him a lot higher on their board and not risked someone else scooping him.

Is that all you saw? You didn't see him lead the break and hit someone with a beautiful bounce pass?

Guys fall for different reasons. Maybe his inexperience scared teams off. Maybe teams knew he wanted to go to the Raptors. Or maybe other team's scouts just didn't see him enough to understand how good he might be with proper development. I think the organization has really high hopes for the kid, I know I do after seeing how he performed in summer league. We won't know what we have for at least another 2 or 3 seasons, but I'd be lying if I said that the flashes he showed on both ends of the floor don't have me very excited for his future.

I know I see more occasions where he has the ball and is afraid to put it on the floor. His handle is not good. He isn't a two way player, which is what I pushed back on. In two years, maybe?

The Raptors had high hopes for Bruno, and they dumped him after 2 and a half seasons for Malachi Richardson. Masai said he had to take him in the first round because he was afraid this guy that wasn't even on any top 60 draft boards would be taken before their second round selection. Chomche was the 4th guy the Raptors took. Maybe they have high hopes, but they didn't give him a long-term contract. They didn't give him a roster spot. I don't think I've heard Masai even mention him by name, and last year he was hyping up Jontay Porter as someone they were really excited about.

Anyway, I agree that the few highlights are exciting and offer a kind of dream scenario of it all panning out into something special. I'm just bringing up what happens with these prospects. As I said, if he hit 2000 career minutes he'd be making history with his profile out of the second round, and 2000 minutes is not a good career.

[ConSarnit]

Who cares if we don't trust them to be good? They haven't proven anything. If the entire thing falls apart because of getting rid of Poeltl then how good is BBQ in the first place? If they can't carry the team at some middling level then that only proves we need more high level help.

.

Because this not NBA 2k. There are real people you are discussing with rational (or irrational) thoughts and feelings that you have to keep considering.

Except nowhere along the line does management ever explicitly have to say "we don't trust you guys". The front office can doubt this team and it's core (if it's not clicking) and can trade Poeltl without ever having to publicly express doubt to any of BBQ. A Poeltl trade can be spun in any way. Hell, a Poeltl trade could materialize simply because someone made a good offer. Consider the alternative: keeping Poeltl just to appease BBQ, even if the season is going off the rails. If this season is in the tank early should we not trade Poeltl because it might hurt BBQ's feelings? No front office is ever going to come right out and say they don't trust their main guys. That's not the issue here. My position is that it is ridiculous to think we absolutely have to keep Poeltl or else we'll hurt the feelings of BBQ. If this team is failing the FO needs to make the best long term decisions for the team and that might include trading Poeltl and fully embracing a tank this season. We can't be keeping role players just to appease the core members of a bad team.

[YogurtProducer]

Who cares if we don't trust them to be good? They haven't proven anything. If the entire thing falls apart because of getting rid of Poeltl then how good is BBQ in the first place? If they can't carry the team at some middling level then that only proves we need more high level help.

.

Because this not NBA 2k. There are real people you are discussing with rational (or irrational) thoughts and feelings that you have to keep considering.

Except nowhere along the line does management ever explicitly have to say "we don't trust you guys". The front office can doubt this team and it's core (if it's not clicking) and can trade Poeltl without ever having to publicly express doubt to any of BBQ. A Poeltl trade can be spun in any way. Hell, a Poeltl trade could materialize simply because someone made a good offer. Consider the alternative: keeping Poeltl just to appease BBQ, even if the season is going off the rails. If this season is in the tank early should we not trade Poeltl because it might hurt BBQ's feelings? No front office is ever going to come right out and say they don't trust their main guys. That's not the issue here. My position is that it is ridiculous to think we absolutely have to keep Poeltl or else we'll hurt the feelings of BBQ. If this team is failing the FO needs to make the best long term decisions for the team and that might include trading Poeltl and fully embracing a tank this season. We can't be keeping role players just to appease the core members of a bad team.

Because again, these are human beings who are capable of having thoughts and feelings.

They are not stupid.

This is not 2k where you can just hold guys out for 2 years and tank and then go "ok guys! Now that we have our high draft picks hopefully you guys remember what it is like to play basketball again!".

You lose the locker room, development suffers, etc. It is why time and time you see teams who absolutely gut their teams end up in the gutter for a decade.

[ConSarnit]

Because this not NBA 2k. There are real people you are discussing with rational (or irrational) thoughts and feelings that you have to keep considering.

Except nowhere along the line does management ever explicitly have to say "we don't trust you guys". The front office can doubt this team and it's core (if it's not clicking) and can trade Poeltl without ever having to publicly express doubt to any of BBQ. A Poeltl trade can be spun in any way. Hell, a Poeltl trade could materialize simply because someone made a good offer. Consider the alternative: keeping Poeltl just to appease BBQ, even if the season is going off the rails. If this season is in the tank early should we not trade Poeltl because it might hurt BBQ's feelings? No front office is ever going to come right out and say they don't trust their main guys. That's not the issue here. My position is that it is ridiculous to think we absolutely have to keep Poeltl or else we'll hurt the feelings of BBQ. If this team is failing the FO needs to make the best long term decisions for the team and that might include trading Poeltl and fully embracing a tank this season. We can't be keeping role players just to appease the core members of a bad team.

Because again, these are human beings who are capable of having thoughts and feelings.

They are not stupid.

This is not 2k where you can just hold guys out for 2 years and tank and then go "ok guys! Now that we have our high draft picks hopefully you guys remember what it is like to play basketball again!".

You lose the locker room, development suffers, etc. It is why time and time you see teams who absolutely gut their teams end up in the gutter for a decade.

I'm not advocating we go back to the days of having zero centers. We have Olynyk who is stopgap in the meantime. Will the defense suffer? Yes. Will the offense suffer? Honestly, it probably gets better with his floor spacing.

If we for some reason trade Poeltl in December because we're 10-25 and these other guys shut it down then how can we count on them anyways? If this team is really bad with 4th year Barnes and 5th and 6th years Quickley and Barrett why are we so set on keeping them content? We're going to build a perennial 42 win ceiling team just so we don't upset one of BBQ? How does that make sense?

Again, I'm not advocating trading Poeltl now or if we start out looking good (let's say a 40 win pace team). If we start out really bad and a Poeltl deal becomes available we should not be turning down benefical long term trades for the sake of catering to a core of a bad team. I understand these guys are human beings but keeping guys "happy" is not a good enough reason to sacrifice potential long term, high upside success. Especially not with a core that hasn't proven anything. Is anyone going to be happy if we finish with the 9th worst record in the league but hey, we kept our core guys happy?

[ConSarnit]

Koloko had the best DRTG of any rookie IIRC in his rookie season and was getting 2.6 blocks per 36 (and was elite blocking shots in College). He was certainly projected to be a very, very good rim protector in the NBA.

Carlson is as much of a project as Koloko was. He has no where near the defensive abilities or profile, is a full year older, has less NBA experience, worse draft capital, etc. and does not really look like he is going to be a guy who can contest shots well nor is he projecting to be a good rebounder at the C position.

Carlsons path to NBA minutes is becoming an absolute sniper from 3. So far, that has not happened but he certainly has the form.

Obviously we have no idea the circumstances surrounding Koloko going to LAL, but if we had the option to bring him in and just didn't to keep a guy like Carlson that IMO is disappointing.

Disagree with all of this. Must be watching different games

Sent from my LG-H873 using RealGM mobile app

Pretty mind blowing to think Carlson is a superior prospect to Koloko unless you think his sickness completely removed his ability to be mobile which seems unlikely.

But I agree - we are watching vastly different games if you think Carlson is a good prospect. He is about as replaceable of a pickup as you can possibly get in the NBA. A 25 year old undrafted rookie. Pretty much the definition of zero value.

Also crazy to say that there hasn't been any evidence that Koloko could be an elite shot blocker. In the 1 season he played his blk% was 6.9%.

Rudy Gobert's career blk%: 5.8%

Dikembe Mutombo career blk%: 6.3%

If Koloko wasn't on the path to at least become a very good shot blocker than who ever was?

[YogurtProducer]

Except nowhere along the line does management ever explicitly have to say "we don't trust you guys". The front office can doubt this team and it's core (if it's not clicking) and can trade Poeltl without ever having to publicly express doubt to any of BBQ. A Poeltl trade can be spun in any way. Hell, a Poeltl trade could materialize simply because someone made a good offer. Consider the alternative: keeping Poeltl just to appease BBQ, even if the season is going off the rails. If this season is in the tank early should we not trade Poeltl because it might hurt BBQ's feelings? No front office is ever going to come right out and say they don't trust their main guys. That's not the issue here. My position is that it is ridiculous to think we absolutely have to keep Poeltl or else we'll hurt the feelings of BBQ. If this team is failing the FO needs to make the best long term decisions for the team and that might include trading Poeltl and fully embracing a tank this season. We can't be keeping role players just to appease the core members of a bad team.

Because again, these are human beings who are capable of having thoughts and feelings.

They are not stupid.

This is not 2k where you can just hold guys out for 2 years and tank and then go "ok guys! Now that we have our high draft picks hopefully you guys remember what it is like to play basketball again!".

You lose the locker room, development suffers, etc. It is why time and time you see teams who absolutely gut their teams end up in the gutter for a decade.

I'm not advocating we go back to the days of having zero centers. We have Olynyk who is stopgap in the meantime. Will the defense suffer? Yes. Will the offense suffer? Honestly, it probably gets better with his floor spacing.

If we for some reason trade Poeltl in December because we're 10-25 and these other guys shut it down then how can we count on them anyways? If this team is really bad with 4th year Barnes and 5th and 6th years Quickley and Barrett why are we so set on keeping them content? We're going to build a perennial 42 win ceiling team just so we don't upset one of BBQ? How does that make sense?

Again, I'm not advocating trading Poeltl now or if we start out looking good (let's say a 40 win pace team). If we start out really bad and a Poeltl deal becomes available we should not be turning down benefical long term trades for the sake of catering to a core of a bad team. I understand these guys are human beings but keeping guys "happy" is not a good enough reason to sacrifice potential long term, high upside success. Especially not with a core that hasn't proven anything. Is anyone going to be happy if we finish with the 9th worst record in the league but hey, we kept our core guys happy?

You are not following the conversation. This entire thing started by saying we won't be able to out tank the bottom 5ish teams without making moves to trade those guys now or start sitting them early in the year. If we are 10-25 that is a 23 win pace over the entire year that is already bottom 5 in the league.

The whole purpose of this conversation was to say we are likely to good to be that bad. And to be that bad, it would require sitting guys a lot - which goes back to my point about development, team morale, etc. So your point that "if we are 10-25" does not seem in reality, as I would be shocked if we were fully healthy and were a 23-win team.

[ConSarnit]

Because again, these are human beings who are capable of having thoughts and feelings.

They are not stupid.

This is not 2k where you can just hold guys out for 2 years and tank and then go "ok guys! Now that we have our high draft picks hopefully you guys remember what it is like to play basketball again!".

You lose the locker room, development suffers, etc. It is why time and time you see teams who absolutely gut their teams end up in the gutter for a decade.

I'm not advocating we go back to the days of having zero centers. We have Olynyk who is stopgap in the meantime. Will the defense suffer? Yes. Will the offense suffer? Honestly, it probably gets better with his floor spacing.

If we for some reason trade Poeltl in December because we're 10-25 and these other guys shut it down then how can we count on them anyways? If this team is really bad with 4th year Barnes and 5th and 6th years Quickley and Barrett why are we so set on keeping them content? We're going to build a perennial 42 win ceiling team just so we don't upset one of BBQ? How does that make sense?

Again, I'm not advocating trading Poeltl now or if we start out looking good (let's say a 40 win pace team). If we start out really bad and a Poeltl deal becomes available we should not be turning down benefical long term trades for the sake of catering to a core of a bad team. I understand these guys are human beings but keeping guys "happy" is not a good enough reason to sacrifice potential long term, high upside success. Especially not with a core that hasn't proven anything. Is anyone going to be happy if we finish with the 9th worst record in the league but hey, we kept our core guys happy?

You are not following the conversation. This entire thing started by saying we won't be able to out tank the bottom 5ish teams without making moves to trade those guys now or start sitting them early in the year. If we are 10-25 that is a 23 win pace over the entire year that is already bottom 5 in the league.

The whole purpose of this conversation was to say we are likely to good to be that bad. And to be that bad, it would require sitting guys a lot - which goes back to my point about development, team morale, etc. So your point that "if we are 10-25" does not seem in reality, as I would be shocked if we were fully healthy and were a 23-win team.

Did you actually read any of the posts between Shakril and I because I addressed all of this. My contention is yes, we actually could start out that bad given our schedule and possibly early injury issues like RJ's. There is a real world in which we go 6-19 to start the season. We play 3 teams that won less than 45 games last year in our first 25 games. I also argued that I do not think it is guaranteed that all of the perceived bottom 5 teams will be worse than us. You guys are just higher on this team than I am and are assuming my views are the same as yours. They aren't. I hope the team is better than I think it will be but even if we're the 8-9th worst team in the league it might not play out that way given our early schedule. And it's not far fall from 9th worst to 6th worst (I'll concede getting in the absolute bottom 5 is probably a stretch). This season could start extremely rocky, even with moderate health.

[raincityraptors]

I finally got around to watching the game.

RJ looks ready to take a leap to me.

Kelly looks much better than he did in the Olympics and I love the inverted pick and roll with him (even though this might not work in the regular season).

While Dick looks better he still can't hit a 3 and once the defense figured out how to go at him one on one he looked like a liability on the floor on that end.

Shead playing exactly the way he played in college and it's working! Once the NBA figures out how to guard him he won't be as effective. He is still the back up PG of my dreams.

Chomche looked stronger to me than Mogbo. Mogbo is so much better at this stage but I didn't expect Chomche to be this strong as a kid.

Mogbo couldn't hang with the bigs but man can he rebound and pass.

I like all of Carton, Ramsey and Mitchell. I love our guard rotation if we can find a way to keep them all.

I'm not sure Bruno or Boucher fit.

Ochai looked like a NBA player but I would rather have Ramsey or Battle personally.