Retro Player of the Year 1978-79 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

AEnigma · Post #1 » by **AEnigma** » Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:26 pm

General Project Discussion Thread

Discussion and Results from the 2010 Project

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 players and the top 3 offensive and defensive players of 1978-79.

Player of the Year (POY)(5) — most accomplished overall player of that season
Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)(3) — most accomplished offensive player of that season
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)(3) — most accomplished defensive player of that season

Voting will close sometime after 10:30AM PST on Sunday, October 13th. I have no issue keeping it open so long as discussion is strong, but please try to vote within the first three days.

Valid ballots must provide an explanation for your choices that gives us a window into how you thought and why you came to the decisions you did. You can vote for any of the three awards — although they must be complete votes — but I will only tally votes for an award when there are at least five valid ballots submitted for it.

Remember, your votes must be based on THIS season. This is intended to give wide wiggle room for personal philosophies while still providing a boundary to make sure the award can be said to mean something. You can factor things like degree of difficulty as defined by you, but what you can't do is ignore how the player actually played on the floor this season in favor of what he might have done if only...

You may change your vote, but if you do, edit your original post rather than writing, "hey, ignore my last post, this is my real post until I change my mind again.” I similarly ask that ballots be kept in one post rather than making one post for Player of the Year, one post for Offensive Player of the Year, and/or one post for Defensive Player of the Year. If you want to provide your reasoning that way for the sake of discussion, fine, but please keep the official votes themselves in one aggregated post. Finally, for ease of tallying, I prefer for you to place your votes at the beginning of your balloting post, with some formatting that makes them stand out. I will not discount votes which fail to follow these requests, but I am certainly more likely to overlook them.

Current Voter List

Spoiler:

Djoker · Post #2 » by **Djoker** » Thu Oct 10, 2024 6:10 pm

Kareem is #1. He had as strong of a year as 1980 just without the title. There is no one except Moses near his level individually and he had an even shorter and much worse playoff run. Pretty wacky that Houston is #1 on offense but #21 (last!) on defense behind the big guy. Still thinking Moses at #2 then Gervin, Hayes, and Erving in some order maybe.

Post #3 » by **penbeast0** » Thu Oct 10, 2024 6:38 pm

This year, instead of the Bullets being a low level playoff team all year then going on a big playoff run, they were the best team in the regular season but lost in a finals rematch with Seattle. Elvin Hayes's best offensive year, or close to it; Dandridge close behind him with more efficiency and passing, Unseld the glue guy. Seattle had the 2nd best record and the title with maybe the deepest team in the league but no one real standout, though Gus and DJ stepped up their games amazingly well in the playoffs. Phoenix was the other top RS team behind Westphal and Walter Davis again offensively and lost in 7 to Seattle in the WCF.

A level behind them were Kansas City (!) with Otis Birdsong as their main scorer and Sam Lacey doing a Wes Unseld imitation, the Spurs with Gervin, Denver who swapped Bobby Jones for McGinnis (22.6 pts, 11.4 reb) to go with David Thompson and Issel, Kareem in LA with Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes, and Adrian Dantley who were generally healthy but still not playing up to their talent, Philly where the Bobby Jones trade let Erving shine more (and brought their Drtg up to 2nd in the league), Houston with Moses, Atlanta, Portland where Walton didn't play a game, and the Clippers where World B Free got a chance to be the man. Everyone else had a losing record and no one player stands out that much.

I have a hard time voting for Kareem or Doc as their teams didn't play up to their talent but Kareem was still the most talented player in the league so he belongs in here somewhere.

1. Elvin Hayes
2. Gus Williams
3. Dennis Johnson
4. Kareem
5. Paul Westphal

HM: Moses, Walter Davis, Dandridge, Marques Johnson

AEnigma · Post #4 » by **AEnigma** » Thu Oct 10, 2024 7:30 pm

Offensive Player of the Year

1. Paul Westphal
2. Gus Williams
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Westphal repeats for me as the most consistently reliable playmaker in the league throughout the regular season, capped off with being the top playmaker in a conference finals against the playmaker I had as the overall playoff leader.

Speaking of: while the conference finals was a down series for Gus, and while his minutes were rather low during the regular season, when you are one of two players to ever outscore prime Kareem in a series, and you are the clear offensive leader for a comfortable title team, you have a pretty safe path to my top two in this era.

Plenty of candidates for third place, but with a full season of Kareem, I think he is the next most reliable source of team offence, with his post playmaking giving him the edge over Gervin in my eyes.

Defensive Player of the Year

1. Elvin Hayes
2. Dan Roundfield
3. Dennis Johnson

1979-83 is the toughest stretch for this award, with no truly all-time defensive campaigns. Hayes has been the official runner-up twice now; maybe this can be his year. I think Dandridge is now the Bullets’ best player, and that is reflected in their offensive leap as he seizes primacy, but Hayes remains the team’s defensive backbone, continues playing over 3000 minutes, and once again makes a deep playoff run built on the team’s defence.

Dennis Johnson deserves moderate recognition for what he achieved this season. I assess him as one of the two or three best guard defenders in league history, and here he wins Finals MVP largely because of his stupendous defensive effort. He averages a career high in blocks and block rate, and for what little it is worth, I suspect he would have won DPoY this year if the award existed.

However, DJ is also still just a guard, and no part of me believes he was legitimately one of the most impactful defenders in the league. In terms of voting share, I am fine with the implication that the second-best defensive big is three times as valuable as the best guard. The problem then is determining that other top defensive big.

Looking at Kareem, Sam Lacey on the Royals, Tree and Roundfield on the Hawks, and the Joneses on the 76ers.

EDIT: Going with Roundfield because I respect the tough series against the Bullets and comfortable handling of the Rockets, both of which speak more to Roundfield than to Tree imo.

Player of the Year

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. George Gervin
3. Julius Erving
4. Gus Williams
5. Paul Westphal

Kareem is the best and has no serious challenger, although I think we were completely excessive with that 1976-78 trio of awards to him.

I am sure many will notice one particular absence here, but regular season MVP is not any sort of automatic inclusion for me the way winning a title is (see also: 1954, 1969, and 2001), and a 0-2 exit to a generally forgettable Hawks team is not doing anything for his case as a truly relevant player this year. That applies even more to Marques Johnson, who may be a top three player this year (in an extremely weak field of candidates after Kareem) but does not make the postseason.

More later.

One_and_Done · Post #5 » by **One_and_Done** » Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:05 pm

Kareem is still going to be my #1. He might have some competition from Bird next year though.

kcktiny · Post #6 » by **kcktiny** » Thu Oct 10, 2024 8:59 pm

I'm a huge Dr.J. fan, but Marques Johnson was the best SF in the league that season. Scored and shot better than the Doctor, slightly better rebounder, committed far fewer turnovers, was a decent defender.

Ken D · Post #7 » by **Ken D** » Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:26 pm

AEnigma wrote:Dennis Johnson deserves moderate recognition for what he achieved this season. I assess him as one of the two or three best guard defenders in league history, and here he wins Finals MVP largely because of his stupendous defensive effort. He averages a career high in blocks and block rate, and for what little it is worth, I suspect he would have won DPoY this year if the award existed.

However, DJ is also still just a guard, and no part of me believes he was legitimately one of the most impactful defenders in the league. In terms of voting share, I am fine with the implication that the second-best defensive big is three times as valuable as the best guard. The problem then is determining that other top defensive big.

I agree with all of this regarding bigs and guards when it comes to DPOY. Do you think in this stretch from 1979-1984 where there is a smaller gap between the best defensive bigs, and we have say Dennis Johnson and then Sidney Moncrief as standout defensive guards and arguably a larger gap to the next best defensive guards, that an argument could be made for DJ or Moncrief being the most valuable defensive player when factoring in positional competition?

Just as a thought experiment for an example, all else being equal, would a team that had the 5th best defensive big and Dennis Johnson be better defensively than a team that had the best defensive big and the 5th best defensive guard during this stretch where we don't have a clear standout defensive big?

If so, could we make an argument that Dennis Johnson may not be in the top 5, or maybe even top 10 most impactful defensive players in the league, but could possibly be the most valuable defensive player due to the unique differing gaps in competition by position in this era?

AEnigma · Post #8 » by **AEnigma** » Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:55 pm

Ken D wrote:
AEnigma wrote:Dennis Johnson deserves moderate recognition for what he achieved this season. I assess him as one of the two or three best guard defenders in league history, and here he wins Finals MVP largely because of his stupendous defensive effort. He averages a career high in blocks and block rate, and for what little it is worth, I suspect he would have won DPoY this year if the award existed.

However, DJ is also still just a guard, and no part of me believes he was legitimately one of the most impactful defenders in the league. In terms of voting share, I am fine with the implication that the second-best defensive big is three times as valuable as the best guard. The problem then is determining that other top defensive big.

I agree with all of this regarding bigs and guards when it comes to DPOY. Do you think in this stretch from 1979-1984 where there is a smaller gap between the best defensive bigs, and we have say Dennis Johnson and then Sidney Moncrief as standout defensive guards and arguably a larger gap to the next best defensive guards, that an argument could be made for DJ or Moncrief being the most valuable defensive player when factoring in positional competition?

Just as a thought experiment for an example, all else being equal, would a team that had the 5th best defensive big and Dennis Johnson be better defensively than a team that had the best defensive big and the 5th best defensive guard during this stretch where we don't have a clear standout defensive big?

If so, could we make an argument that Dennis Johnson may not be in the top 5, or maybe even top 10 most impactful defensive players in the league, but could possibly be the most valuable defensive player due to the unique differing gaps in competition by position in this era?

Open to the thought but I think the issue there is that with offences being what they were, you had a limit on how much an average point guard could realistically drag down your team’s defence. However, on a team basis, I definitely think it becomes easier to frame guards like DJ or Moncrief as their team’s defensive MVP, even if in a literal “value” sense bigs like Sikma are still having a larger effect on opposing offences. And there are worst standards for a DPoY vote than “defensive MVP on title-winning #1 defence.”

trelos6 · Post #9 » by **trelos6** » Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:09 am

It feels like we are flying through this project, but then again, 1978-79 was 45 years ago.

We have some new candidates coming in next season, but for now, we’ll have to settle for Moses.

POY

1.Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. I still have Kareem at #1, with a +3.2 OPIPM, +2.76 DPIPM, overall PIPM of +5.97. 19.26 Wins Added. His scoring took a little dip at only 20.5 pp75, but his efficiency was still top tier at +8.2 rTS%. The Lakers were a top 5 offense, with a rOrtg of +2.3. Defensively, the Lakers were in the top half of the league. Kareem was still a dominant rim protector and shot blocker, with 4 blocks per game.

2.Moses Malone. +3.43 OPIPM. -0.17 DPIPM (though he made all defensive 2nd team. The Rockets were bad defensively 21st of 22). Overall PIPM +3.26. There’s just something about a guy who can get that many offensive rebounds, and score efficiently.

3.George Gervin. Too good of a scoring package to pass up at 3.

4.Gus Williams. The Wizard had a really great season, and while not as good as DJ defensively (who was), I think he was the better playmaker by far.

5.Marques Johnson. Terrific season despite his supbar team. They get better really quick though.

HM: Elvin Hayes. Terrific defender with some solid scoring on slightly sub par efficiency.

OPOY

1.George Gervin. With the absence of elite playmakers, Gervin is the best scorer in the league. 26.7 pp75, +6.1 rTS%, team oRtg of +3.3, good for 3rd in the league.

2.Moses Malone. 20.8 pp75, +7.4 rTS%. Team rOrtg was a +4.9 and league leading. Moses was up to 7.2 offensive rebounds a game, providing many second chance points.

3.Paul Westphal. Get’s the nod over Marques and Walter Davis for his playmaking. 24.4 pp75 on +5 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +1.9, good for 7th in the league. His efficiency took a hit in the playoffs, but still was effective as a scorer and playmaker. Arguably outplayed Gus Williams offensively in their 7 game series.

HM: Marques Johnson. 24 pp75 on +5.6 rTS%. Team rOrtg of +2.2, 6th in the league.

DPOY

1.Sam Lacey. Anchored the 4th best defense in the regular season, 2nd best in the playoffs. +2.45 DPIPM.

2.Jack Sikma. Anchored the leagues best D in the regular season. Top 4 defense in the playoffs.

3.Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Elite rim protection. 4 blocks a game, +2.76 DPIPM. I think he was better than guys like George Johnson, Tree Rollins, Robert Parish defensively, so I’ll give him the nod for his shot blocking.

HM: Philadelphia. I’m giving the entire Philly team my HM. Caldwell Jones, Bobby Jones, Dr. J, Dawkins, Mo Cheeks. They were a terrific defensive unit.

Djoker · Post #10 » by **Djoker** » Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:23 am

Gus Williams had a seriously great run for Seattle. I didn't expect any Sonics making my ballot coming into this year but he very well might. There aren't too many guards in history who matched his scoring over a championship run.

AEnigma · Post #11 » by **AEnigma** » Fri Oct 11, 2024 5:26 pm

I may be delayed in tallying ballots. Will work on concluding this for Sunday as scheduled at least with the winners of each category so we can move on to the next thread, but the full tallying may not be done until Monday or Tuesday.

70sFan · Post #12 » by **70sFan** » Fri Oct 11, 2024 7:40 pm

Player of the Year
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. George Gervin
3. Julius Erving
4. Moses Malone
5. Paul Westphal
HM: Gus Williams, Marques Johnson

Kareem is the easy choice, I don't see any credible opponent for the first spot. I don't really think Jabbar regressed on offensive end at all and he was spectacular in the playoffs. I also don't get the "underwhelming" PS results, Lakers were not really a well constructed team and we can actually watch the Sonics games - I don't know how you can blame Kareem.

The rest of the list is a bit messy. In most cases, I think Julius is a superior player overall than Gervin, but Iceman was extremely good in the playoffs and Julius had a down RS. Moses arguably was the best player in the RS, but he did basically nothing in the playoffs (though in such a small sample I don't hold it against him much either).

Gus vs Paul is an interesting discussion, but I just think that Westphal was a better offensive player and played better in the WCF. Not a massive gap in either way though, so I am open to change my mind.

OPOY
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. George Gervin
3. Paul Westphal
HM: Moses Malone

DPOY
1.Elvin Hayes
2. Dennis Johnson
3. Robert Parish
HM: Jack Sikma

DPOY is rough, but I don't find better candidates for now. I'm not even sure if Big E is the best choice, it's not like he didn't have considerable help and Bullets were far from ATG defense that season.

capfan33 · Post #13 » by **capfan33** » Sat Oct 12, 2024 2:35 am

POY
1. Kareem
2. George Gervin
3. Dr J
4. Gus Williams
5. Moses Malone

#1 is easy. While Dr. J was a better player, Gervin playoff performance gives him the edge for me. The best player on the title team should be on here and for 5, somewhat similar to the prior votes for players with abbreviated playoff series, Moses deserves to be on here with some penalty as I think he was probably the second best player in the league in a vacuum albeit I’m not sure of that.

DPOY
Elvin Hayes
Bobby Jones
Dennis Johnson

Weak field, which is partly why I’m voting for a guard this early in the games history. Surprised Bobby Jones isn’t getting more attention given the sixers essentially had the same defensive rating as the sonics even though he did have help.

OPOY
Kareem
Paul Westphal
George Gervin

kcktiny · Post #14 » by **kcktiny** » Sat Oct 12, 2024 4:57 am

no part of me believes he was legitimately one of the most impactful defenders in the league

Seattle was the best defensive team in the league that season, allowed just 98.9 pts/100poss. This despite the fact that they ranked just 18th in the league in turnovers forced (17.3 oppTO/100poss), and only 13th in shot blocking (4.6 bs/100poss).

Yet they were best in the league in lowest 2ptFG% allowed (46.3%), and the only Sonics player named to the all-defensive team was Dennis Johnson (all-defensive 1st team). That means in the eyes of the voters (NBA head coaches) the best defender on the league's best defensive team that season was Johnson. And the 6-4 D.J. was also the Sonics best shot blocker.

Same thing in 1979-80 - Seattle was 1st in the league in defense (99.9 pts/100poss allowed) and D.J was the only Sonic named to the all-defensive team.

Not only that but his 2 seasons in Phoenix (1980-81 and 1981-82) the Suns were the best team in the league defensively (99.8 pts/100poss allowed) and Johnson was the only Suns player named to the all-defensive team either season (all-defensive 1st team both years).

Dennis Johnson... I assess him as one of the two or three best guard defenders in league history

Hard to argue with that. He certainly has the defensive credentials.

OhayoKD · Post #15 » by **OhayoKD** » Sat Oct 12, 2024 5:08 am

kcktiny wrote:
no part of me believes he was legitimately one of the most impactful defenders in the league

Seattle was the best defensive team in the league that season, allowed just 98.9 pts/100poss. This despite the fact that they ranked just 18th in the league in turnovers forced (17.3 oppTO/100poss), and only 13th in shot blocking (4.6 bs/100poss).

Yet they were best in the league in lowest 2ptFG% allowed (46.3%), and the only Sonics player named to the all-defensive team was Dennis Johnson (all-defensive 1st team). That means in the eyes of the voters (NBA head coaches) the best defender on the league's best defensive team that season was Johnson. And the 6-4 D.J. was also the Sonics best shot blocker.

A guard can lead a team in blocks and still be below average at protecting the paint:

Spoiler:

Assuming a 6'4 player is the main reason a team has a low opposing 2 point percentage because of a high block average is dubious.

Not sure what the 1st-team ALL-NBA has to do with anything. ALL-NBA's are handed out by positions and Mr. Johnson played the least valuable position and competed with the least valuable defenders. That says about nothing regarding how he compares to bigger teammates.

One_and_Done · Post #16 » by **One_and_Done** » Sat Oct 12, 2024 9:49 am

My big takeaway for this year is that the MVP voting was just awful back then. Kareem 4th? Seriously? No votes for Dr J or Marques Johnson? World B. Free and his empty stats in 6th place? Comical stuff. The voting these days has improved a great deal thankfully.

1. Kareem

Easily still the best player in the league, with the most impact on winning. He’ll start to get some real competition from next year though, I might actually have to consider Bird over him (though too soon for Magic, who peaked later).

2. Erving

I’m not going to act like Ervin wasn’t better than Gervin or Gus Williams or Sikma, just because his team situation was a little dysfunctional still. The team was finally getting given back to Erving again. Unfortunately I do think he was slowed a bit by injuries at this stage. Not so much to put Gervin over him though.

3. Gervin.

Really stepped up his game to get the Spurs back to pre-Silas levels. If he’d had 1976 Silas this year, they likely win the title. Doesn’t feel like he was as sound all around (especially on D) as the doctor though.

4. Gilmore

He was still a great player on a garbage team. If you swapped him out for some of the guys getting votes, that team still isn’t making the playoffs.

5. Moses Malone

I think Moses is an overrated player historically and objectively, but in this era he was a top 5 player probably. I wanted to vote Marques Johnson, but it’s probably not quite time for him yet.

70sFan · Post #17 » by **70sFan** » Sat Oct 12, 2024 10:13 am

One_and_Done wrote:I’m not going to act like Ervin wasn’t better than Gervin or Gus Williams or Sikma, just because his team situation was a little dysfunctional still.

What exactly made his team situation dysfunctional at this point?

One_and_Done · Post #18 » by **One_and_Done** » Sat Oct 12, 2024 11:21 am

70sFan wrote:
One_and_Done wrote:I’m not going to act like Ervin wasn’t better than Gervin or Gus Williams or Sikma, just because his team situation was a little dysfunctional still.

What exactly made his team situation dysfunctional at this point?

They'd gotten rid of most of the bad fits, but it seems like the team wasn't being optimised around him as much as the next year.

Djoker · Post #19 » by **Djoker** » Sat Oct 12, 2024 11:00 pm

VOTING POST

POY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 2nd Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. Still the same Kareem we've seen for much of the decade except unlike the previous year, he's healthy all season and plays really well in the playoffs. No difference in his level of play between this season and 1980 except for the championship and in a year in which the other major candidates didn't win the title, he gets the #1 spot. Averaged 23.8/12.8/5.4 on 61.2 %TS (+8.2 rTS) in the RS then 28.5/12.6/4.8 on 63.6 %TS (+12.6 rTS) in the PS. Best player in the league by far.

2. Moses Malone - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd Team All-Defense. MVP. In the RS, Moses built a strong case to get the #1 spot here but his PS leaves much to be desired. Not only did he lose to a mediocre Hawks team (although 0-2 miniseries) but he played poorly in the process. He gets the #2 spot because of his individual dominance and his Rockets were the #1 offense in the league in no small part due to his rim scoring and historic offensive rebounding. I do believe him fouling out opposing C in direct matchups ala Shaq gave him extra value not seen in the box score. Putting back his own misses may well underrate his per possession efficiency too when looking at TS%. Averaged 24.8/17.6/1.8 on 60.4 %TS (+7.4 rTS) in the RS then 24.5/20.5/1.0 on 50.1 %TS (-4.2 rTS) in the PS.

3. George Gervin - 1st Team All-NBA. 2nd in MVP voting. Gervin put forward another great scoring season and he took the Spurs to the WCF where they lost to the more talented Bullets in 7 games. The Iceman could not be stopped. He averaged 29.6/5.0/2.7 on 59.1 %TS (+6.1 rTS) in the RS then 28.6/5.9/2.5 on 58.7 %TS (+7.7 rTS) in the PS.

4. Elvin Hayes - 1st Team All-NBA. Led the Bullets to the best record in the league with great two-way play and dominated individually up until the NBA Finals against the Sonics where both he and the Bullets had a subpar series and lost in last year's rematch. His efficiency scoring the ball was poor but his work on the boards and defensively gave him innate value. He averaged 21.8/12.1/1.7 on 52.3 %TS (-0.7 rTS) in the RS then 22.5/14.0/2.0 on 47.1 %TS (-4.9 rTS) in the PS.

5. Gus Williams - Had a ho-hum RS in which he didn't even make the All-Star game and then just exploded in the PS. Little guard with a lot of quickness and a good jumper. He was a pain to deal with. Averaged 19.2/3.2/4.0 on 53.4 %TS (+0.4 rTS) in the RS then 26.7/4.1/3.7 on 51.8 %TS (-0.3 rTS) in the PS. He had huge series against both the Lakers and the Bullets in the Finals and probably should have been the Finals MVP.

HM:

Marques Johnson - Very good RS but team didn't make the PS.

Julius Erving - Stronger RS than Gus but weaker PS.

OPOY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Historic scorer for a big and much better playmaker than Moses.

2. Moses Malone - Monster offensive rebounding supplements strong scoring. Weak playmaking. #1 offense.

3. George Gervin - Strong scoring.

DPOY

1. Jack Sikma - Anchored the #1 defense in the league in RS and terrific in the PS.

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Terrific paint protector. Kept the Lakers afloat despite poor defensive roster.

3. Elvin Hayes - Strong body of work including playoffs.

Post #20 » by **penbeast0** » Sun Oct 13, 2024 12:33 am

Question for you. IF you have the following team:

Norm Nixon (2.8/9.0/1.07)
Lou Hudson (1.8/1.8/9.8 in 21 minutes)
Adrian Dantley (5.7/2.3/17.4)
Jamaal Wilkes (7.4/2.8/18.6)
with Ron Boone, Don Ford, Jim Price, Kenny Carr, and Dave Robisch for a solid professional bench
good health with Dantley the only one missing more than 10 games (played 60 but healthy for playoffs)
and an above average but not great Jack Sikma/Sam Lacey/Tree Rollins caliber center.

Wouldn't you expect that to be a competitive playoff team with a winning record if not a true title contender? I would.

It's a bad fit around Kareem with a bunch of scorers everywhere and they play with little fire or enthusiasm outside Nixon. That's why I don't consider this a strong Kareem season. He's still the most talented player in the league but that's a lot of talent for not much result.