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Alex Sarr

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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#281 » by doclinkin » Tue Oct 1, 2024 12:57 am

payitforward wrote:In effect, the question I just posed amounts to asking whether you think Reed Sheppard would have been a better pick than Alex: I don't think anyone called for us to pick anyone else who went from 3 to 7 in place of Sarr.

Dillingham went at 8; maybe Dat would have taken a risk on him over Sarr...? But, I'm not sure of that. & maybe Zards would have taken Castle at 2?


Pretty sure I I liked that Castle guy too. I think I made a post or two about him. Settled on him at 2 if forced to pick. Wanted him on a trade down to also get Edey, but would have taken him at 2. Would have been okay with Reed, but given the front office's lean towards positional size I figured Castle fit their criteria.

Sarr was my 'do not draft' guy, but I am willing to be wrong. If he allows us to play a rim-defending/rebounding Big, I think we could have the outlines of something interesting. The pick-up of Valanciunas lets us experiment to see if my crackpot idea just might work. I'm trying to talk myself into his potential. Yes I will be pissed when Castle reaches the NBA all-defense team before Sarr does. Same way I'll be mad at every double double in Edey's stat sheet. But from Sarr I don't expect much. Early especially. So I feel like he can only outperform my expectations, and I will celebrate those flashes when he does.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#282 » by payitforward » Tue Oct 1, 2024 1:17 am

I was working off of memory -- I didn't look back at the thread. But, even with you settling on Castle (along w/ Zards & against some active negative responses around the gang here), I am pretty sure that overall the call was to pick either Sarr or Sheppard.

The only other opinion that pops back into my head was that of Dat, who I think might have said that he'd go for Dillingham -- I might well be misremembering.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#283 » by nate33 » Tue Oct 1, 2024 1:22 pm

payitforward wrote:As to Vukcevic -- I hope you're right to be optimistic about him. He hasn't shown much so far -- but it's no more than a handful of minutes, really. He'll get a good chance to show out this year. Obviously, we'd have been a lot smarter to have picked Trayce Jackson-Davis! :)

Trayce Jackson-Davis is more then 3 full years older than Vukcevic. I'm not so sure the verdict is in yet on that pick.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#284 » by nate33 » Tue Oct 1, 2024 1:43 pm

payitforward wrote:I was working off of memory -- I didn't look back at the thread. But, even with you settling on Castle (along w/ Zards & against some active negative responses around the gang here), I am pretty sure that overall the call was to pick either Sarr or Sheppard.

The only other opinion that pops back into my head was that of Dat, who I think might have said that he'd go for Dillingham -- I might well be misremembering.


I definitely had Sheppard over Sarr on Draft Day, but to be fair, I was understanding of the decision to draft Sarr based on the potential upside. I really soured on the Sarr pick after watching him in Summer League. His poor hands and aversion to contact really scares me. The comparison that just jumped to mind isn't Wiseman or Bagley, it's someone far worse... Jan Vesely. I hope it doesn't turn out to be that bad, but Vesely is the poster child for what happens if you are afraid of contact in the NBA.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#285 » by doclinkin » Tue Oct 1, 2024 7:41 pm

nate33 wrote:I definitely had Sheppard over Sarr on Draft Day, but to be fair, I was understanding of the decision to draft Sarr based on the potential upside. I really soured on the Sarr pick after watching him in Summer League. His poor hands and aversion to contact really scares me. The comparison that just jumped to mind isn't Wiseman or Bagley, it's someone far worse... Jan Vesely. I hope it doesn't turn out to be that bad, but Vesely is the poster child for what happens if you are afraid of contact in the NBA.


Except Vesely couldn't play defense, or dribble and stayed skinny his whole career. Even as a high flying dunker in Euroball he never bulked up or rebounded or ever added anything to his game. He averages .2 3FG attempts per game, even while he eventually ironed out his confidence problem at the FT line.

Okay so Sarr flinches away from contact under the basket, but even though I'm critical of his under-aggressive nature I appreciate his activity on defense outside of the paint. For all that he missed every shot he took (in that notable game in SL) he stayed ready and kept taking the shots. They missed, but they weren't all bad shots. Meanwhile he has added a bit of muscle. Seems to be working on the right things in skills practice. And no matter what he starts out a far better defender than Vesely who was both nailed to the floor as a perimeter defender AND scared of contact on the interior. The game does not move too fast for Sarr on defense. He instinctively backpedals and slides and cuts off angles. Defense is harder to learn than offense since you can't practice it alone in a gym. The fact that he is ahead of the game on this side of the ball is what gives him a chance to be playable. Even if his offense is stalled for a bit.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#286 » by DCZards » Tue Oct 1, 2024 8:23 pm

Yup…Castle was my guy but I consistently said that I preferred Sarr with the #2 pick. I liked what I saw on film from Sarr as a defender prior to the draft...and I saw enough from him on the defensive end during SL to believe he has the potential to be an elite defender. He’s a long, tall fluid athlete with the ability to guard 3-4 positions…sometimes on a single possession.

We'll have to wait and see how much better Sarr gets on the offensve end. Getting bigger and stronger (and more exprienced playing against grown a** men) should help. Sarr already has a pretty good handle for a big and a nice 3pt stroke. Might turn out that his real future is more as a PF rather than as a C.

Getting my other guy, Bub, along with Sarr, more than made up for not drafting Castle. :)
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#287 » by JAR69 » Wed Oct 2, 2024 3:10 am

Team Castle here, too. I would have taken him at 2 or traded down. I talked myself into being OK with drafting Sarr the same way I talked myself into being OK with drafting Davis. Concerning.

OTOH, watching film of Sarr working out over the summer, I was reminded of, actually, Deni. Deni used to finish so weakly at the rim. Flips and layups instead of power dunks. Hanging out in the corner (he was told to, I know), rarely demanding the ball, and hanging his head when others ignored him. But over three years, he became stronger, more aggressive, more confident. He learned how to be a winning NBA player. Is there a similar arc for Sarr? I don't know. But we need to give him a chance. Film from the Perth Wildcats and a bad summer league doesn't define him.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#288 » by payitforward » Wed Oct 2, 2024 6:17 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:As to Vukcevic -- I hope you're right to be optimistic about him. He hasn't shown much so far -- but it's no more than a handful of minutes, really. He'll get a good chance to show out this year. Obviously, we'd have been a lot smarter to have picked Trayce Jackson-Davis! :)

Trayce Jackson-Davis is more then 3 full years older than Vukcevic. I'm not so sure the verdict is in yet on that pick.

Definitely a good point. & anyway, it's arbitrary to compare them -- especially to pit one against the other. We could have had both guys easily enough!
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#289 » by payitforward » Wed Oct 2, 2024 6:23 pm

I liked Sarr's first SL game. But, good or bad, we know that SL doesn't yield anything substantial.

I don't know why, but I *like* Sarr. I just have a positive response when I watch him play, & he also seems smart, etc. It's all meaningless, I know, but somehow it gives me a positive slant on his future.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#290 » by doclinkin » Wed Oct 2, 2024 8:42 pm

payitforward wrote:
nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:As to Vukcevic -- I hope you're right to be optimistic about him. He hasn't shown much so far -- but it's no more than a handful of minutes, really. He'll get a good chance to show out this year. Obviously, we'd have been a lot smarter to have picked Trayce Jackson-Davis! :)

Trayce Jackson-Davis is more then 3 full years older than Vukcevic. I'm not so sure the verdict is in yet on that pick.

Definitely a good point. & anyway, it's arbitrary to compare them -- especially to pit one against the other. We could have had both guys easily enough!


Right and the real comparison is whether Poole + Baldwin are better than TJD, since apparently that was part of the deal. Clearly based on one day of preseason practice Baldwin is poised to have a breakout year in this his 3rd season in the league. So we will all be asking Trayce Who? and praising the PBJ over the TJD.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#291 » by payitforward » Wed Oct 2, 2024 8:48 pm

Well, if Baldwin has the year you semi-predict we'll all be happy.
Worth mentioning that I was in favor of the add-on trade that brought us Baldwin for the #57. Did I know TJ-D would excel? No, I didn't.

For that matter, obviously, any franchise that did envision his success would have nabbed him earlier. :)
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#292 » by closg00 » Thu Oct 10, 2024 1:13 pm

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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#293 » by nate33 » Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:11 pm

I didn't watch the Knicks preseason game yet, but the Sarr highlight reel looks terrific (as highlight reels often do):



I didn't love his shooting form in the NBL or in Summer League, but he looks a bit more crisp and confident in his delivery now. If this 3-point shooting is real, that's going to open up a very nice pick-and-pop game. It opens up the possibility that he could have an offensive impact something like Chet Holmgren in another year or two. (Remember, Holmgren sat out his draft year so he was a full 2-years older than Sarr in his rookie season.) Defensively, Sarr has the physical tools to be better than Holmgren, but it remains to be seen if he can develop Holmgren's instincts and fearlessness.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#294 » by closg00 » Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:05 pm

Alex Sarr discussion on the GB.
closg00 wrote:viewtopic.php?t=2403940
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#295 » by Dat2U » Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:37 pm

doclinkin wrote:
payitforward wrote:In effect, the question I just posed amounts to asking whether you think Reed Sheppard would have been a better pick than Alex: I don't think anyone called for us to pick anyone else who went from 3 to 7 in place of Sarr.

Dillingham went at 8; maybe Dat would have taken a risk on him over Sarr...? But, I'm not sure of that. & maybe Zards would have taken Castle at 2?


Pretty sure I I liked that Castle guy too. I think I made a post or two about him. Settled on him at 2 if forced to pick. Wanted him on a trade down to also get Edey, but would have taken him at 2. Would have been okay with Reed, but given the front office's lean towards positional size I figured Castle fit their criteria.

Sarr was my 'do not draft' guy, but I am willing to be wrong. If he allows us to play a rim-defending/rebounding Big, I think we could have the outlines of something interesting. The pick-up of Valanciunas lets us experiment to see if my crackpot idea just might work. I'm trying to talk myself into his potential. Yes I will be pissed when Castle reaches the NBA all-defense team before Sarr does. Same way I'll be mad at every double double in Edey's stat sheet. But from Sarr I don't expect much. Early especially. So I feel like he can only outperform my expectations, and I will celebrate those flashes when he does.


And I'm just the opposite. Castle was my 'do not draft' guy. Sarr was the extremely safe pick in my eyes based on his athleticism, length, IQ, defensive motor and success in the NBL where other prospects struggled. Rob Dillingham, who was right there in the same tier to me, would have been the flashy pick who compares favorably to Darius Garland.

Ron Holland & Reed Sheppard were 3 & 4. I liked Reed alot but I kept him at 4 because I did not view him as a guy capable of playing on the ball full time so being a undersized 6-2/6-3 SG made it tough for me to say take him at #2.

Post draft I'm still bearish on Castle. If he develops as you and Zards expect, it will go down as one of my bigger misses. At this level, to me it does not matter how well a guard defends or game manages if he does not have a reliable jumper or top 1% athleticism. Defenses will inevitably back off thusly screwing-up spacing and daring him to prove his shooting otherwise. You cannot be a PG if instead of putting pressure on defenses, teams back off and give you plenty of space... which takes away passing lanes and reduces driving lanes for others.

Even Marcus Smart - Castle's pre-draft doppleganger - IMO looked like a better shooter coming out. Multiple reporters have remarked since the summer that Castle has long stretches where he struggles badly in practice with his shot. A non-shooting guard or wing who isn't a freak of nature is destined to become an after thought. You can be all world defensively but if your mucking up the offense... coaches will look elsewhere and your reduced to being just a defensive specialist like Matisse Thybulle.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#296 » by Dat2U » Fri Oct 11, 2024 1:41 pm

In retrospect, the only thing I'd change is probably considering Reed a little more seriously and maybe moving Ron Holland down a notch or two.

I also think Edey will be really good too, better than Clingan as I suggested before the draft but time will tell.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#297 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 11, 2024 5:01 pm

Dat2U wrote:In retrospect, the only thing I'd change is probably considering Reed a little more seriously and maybe moving Ron Holland down a notch or two.

I also think Edey will be really good too, better than Clingan as I suggested before the draft but time will tell.

Sheppard's ability to get to his midrange pull-up and shoot it with high elevation on his jump is going to become a legit weapon. I think he will be a true offense-initiator running the pick and roll - at least against most teams that lack a switchable center. He may always have some trouble against matchups who have the ability to switch the high screen. I don't know if he will be able to score in isolation on a switch if he is facing a guy like Bam Adebayo or Chet Holmgren.

With the recent transition to more jumbo lineups to counter Jokic and Embiid, the environment may begin to favor guys like Sheppard.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#298 » by payitforward » Fri Oct 11, 2024 5:22 pm

Lot of ways to look at our picks & it'll be a long time before the verdict is in. It's easy to imagine having taken Sheppard at 2 & Kel'el Ware at 14 -- they both look great so far.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#299 » by AFM » Fri Oct 11, 2024 5:34 pm

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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#300 » by doclinkin » Fri Oct 11, 2024 5:38 pm

Dat2U wrote:And I'm just the opposite. Castle was my 'do not draft' guy. Sarr was the extremely safe pick in my eyes based on his athleticism, length, IQ, defensive motor and success in the NBL where other prospects struggled. Rob Dillingham, who was right there in the same tier to me, would have been the flashy pick who compares favorably to Darius Garland.

Ron Holland & Reed Sheppard were 3 & 4. I liked Reed alot but I kept him at 4 because I did not view him as a guy capable of playing on the ball full time so being a undersized 6-2/6-3 SG made it tough for me to say take him at #2.

Post draft I'm still bearish on Castle. If he develops as you and Zards expect, it will go down as one of my bigger misses. At this level, to me it does not matter how well a guard defends or game manages if he does not have a reliable jumper or top 1% athleticism. Defenses will inevitably back off thusly screwing-up spacing and daring him to prove his shooting otherwise. You cannot be a PG if instead of putting pressure on defenses, teams back off and give you plenty of space... which takes away passing lanes and reduces driving lanes for others.


I think Castle's 7-10 from the FT line and swiftly improving 3 are the things that make a guy like him viable on offense. Especially the FT totals. The piece I think many folks are missing is the re-emphasis on physical defense in the 2nd half of last year. If the league stays consistent on allowing teams to hack and pressure, so there is not quite the same discrepancy between playoff calls and regular season call, then every team is going to need the kind of player who can score through contact and force refs to send them to the line. I suspect you will see teams hunting for those Marcus Smart type players more than the Trae Young and Dame types.

Consider the Celts who play Jrue and White. They are on court for their stifling defense and in-game smarts more than their powerhouse offense. But without them Tatum plays soft, and Brown is publicly sour that he is not getting noticed. Big physical guards will come back, as they did when the league allowed teams to muck it up and play large. Antman will be the prototype, and as such you will need Antman counters. The little guys are sure to be swarmed and swallowed up. You want to recruit that swarm, especially if you have a tough player who can bounce off defenders and force fouls to be called when he gets loose on the interior. Pace and space is no longer the metagame. What you want are players who can score despite lacking space. You can get that from above the rim athleticism, but also from the solid cannonball types who score with leverage, angles and heads-up recognition.

Yes a three ball is nice, so is shot creation, I'm saying the stat we need to watch more carefully in tracking draft picks is FT attempts. Ideally And-1 chances, though there's no one tracking that in box scores. Guys who play physical and force the action will be the next 'lanky 3 & D' types that every team is hunting. Watch as 3FG attempts and percentages take a dip. Then find yourself the guy who forces that dip.

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