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Alex Sarr

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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#301 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 11, 2024 5:45 pm

doclinkin wrote:
Dat2U wrote:And I'm just the opposite. Castle was my 'do not draft' guy. Sarr was the extremely safe pick in my eyes based on his athleticism, length, IQ, defensive motor and success in the NBL where other prospects struggled. Rob Dillingham, who was right there in the same tier to me, would have been the flashy pick who compares favorably to Darius Garland.

Ron Holland & Reed Sheppard were 3 & 4. I liked Reed alot but I kept him at 4 because I did not view him as a guy capable of playing on the ball full time so being a undersized 6-2/6-3 SG made it tough for me to say take him at #2.

Post draft I'm still bearish on Castle. If he develops as you and Zards expect, it will go down as one of my bigger misses. At this level, to me it does not matter how well a guard defends or game manages if he does not have a reliable jumper or top 1% athleticism. Defenses will inevitably back off thusly screwing-up spacing and daring him to prove his shooting otherwise. You cannot be a PG if instead of putting pressure on defenses, teams back off and give you plenty of space... which takes away passing lanes and reduces driving lanes for others.


I think Castle's 7-10 from the FT line and swiftly improving 3 are the things that make a guy like him viable on offense. Especially the FT totals. The piece I think many folks are missing is the re-emphasis on physical defense in the 2nd half of last year. If the league stays consistent on allowing teams to hack and pressure, so there is not quite the same discrepancy between playoff calls and regular season call, then every team is going to need the kind of player who can score through contact and force refs to send them to the line. I suspect you will see teams hunting for those Marcus Smart type players more than the Trae Young and Dame types.

Consider the Celts who play Jrue and White. They are on court for their stifling defense and in-game smarts more than their powerhouse offense. But without them Tatum plays soft, and Brown is publicly sour that he is not getting noticed. Big physical guards will come back, as they did when the league allowed teams to muck it up and play large. Antman will be the prototype, and as such you will need Antman counters. The little guys are sure to be swarmed and swallowed up. You want to recruit that swarm, especially if you have a tough player who can bounce off defenders and force fouls to be called when he gets loose on the interior. Pace and space is no longer the metagame. What you want are players who can score despite lacking space. You can get that from above the rim athleticism, but also from the solid cannonball types who score with leverage, angles and heads-up recognition.

Yes a three ball is nice, so is shot creation, I'm saying the stat we need to watch more carefully in tracking draft picks is FT attempts. Ideally And-1 chances, though there's no one tracking that in box scores. Guys who play physical and force the action will be the next 'lanky 3 & D' types that every team is hunting. Watch as 3FG attempts and percentages take a dip. Then find yourself the guy who forces that dip.

Yeah, but he'll never be a Jaylen Brown or Derrick White on offense because he doesn't shoot well enough. Being the next Jrue is his best bet, but Jrue is an extreme outlier in being reasonably effective on offense without a reliable shot or first step. I think Marcus Smart is a better comparison. Smart was an interesting player, but one often wondered if his utility on defense was enough to offset his detriment on offense.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#302 » by doclinkin » Fri Oct 11, 2024 6:02 pm

nate33 wrote:Yeah, but he'll never be a Jaylen Brown or Derrick White on offense because he doesn't shoot well enough. Being the next Jrue is his best bet, but Jrue is an extreme outlier in being reasonably effective on offense without a reliable shot or first step. I think Marcus Smart is a better comparison. Smart was an interesting player, but one often wondered if his utility on defense was enough to offset his detriment on offense.


Yeah? He'll never shoot better than Jaylen Brown's 29% FT shooting in college or 65% from the FT line?
Or I guess Jrue's 30% 3FG and 72% from the line.

He's 19 years old. If we expect Sarr's jumper to improve, fair to give Castle the same grace. I think it's early to say how he tops out, but his 75% from the line in college suggests his shot will fall when he gets enough attempts. And the shots will be there. Wemby carries enough gravity that teams will surely sag off Castle to give him the wide open attempts to get confidence. He's still going to be a 6'6" lead guard, able to shoot over the heads of most of his defenders. Ok the Spurs no longer have shot guru Chip Engellund on squad, but I expect Castle's jumper is going to be fine when he works on it.

My read on Castle was if positional size and strength are the asset we are looking for, and if you 'are' the position you defend, then Castle at PG has a bigger advantage at his position than Sarr does as a 7' lean and under-physical F/C. Cross reference with the box scores to see if the guy has had success at the job you hired him for. Then project from stats that translate (assists and defensive boards translate to NBA defense; FT% translate to 3fg%).

I'm happy Sarr is growing up fast. I do expect him to fill out, and hopefully rebound with more tenacity as he realizes his own strength. I still won't count out Castle. Or Edey. Or in general any of the guys who have proven they can already do the job you have recruited them for.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#303 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 11, 2024 6:09 pm

doclinkin wrote:
nate33 wrote:Yeah, but he'll never be a Jaylen Brown or Derrick White on offense because he doesn't shoot well enough. Being the next Jrue is his best bet, but Jrue is an extreme outlier in being reasonably effective on offense without a reliable shot or first step. I think Marcus Smart is a better comparison. Smart was an interesting player, but one often wondered if his utility on defense was enough to offset his detriment on offense.


Yeah? He'll never shoot better than Jaylen Brown's 29% FT shooting in college or 65% from the FT line?
Or I guess Jrue's 30% 3FG and 72% from the line.

I think it's early to say how he tops out, but his 75% from the line in college suggests his shot will fall when he gets enough attempts. And the shots will be there. Wemby carries enough gravity that teams will surely sag off Castle to give him the wide open attempts to get confidence. He's still going to be a 6'6" lead guard, able to shoot over the heads of most of his defenders. Ok the Spurs no longer have shot guru Chip Engellund on squad, but I expect Castle's jumper is going to be fine when he works on it.

You are projecting tail-end-of-the-bell-curve type of improvement for him to become the player you expect him to be. Sure, it's possible, but it's not something I'm comfortable projecting as probable.

I do think Castle will be a useful player, but I see him as a 4th/5th starter type of role player, which is not something I'd take at #2 overall. San Antonio getting him at #4 isn't so bad in a weak draft. After all, Marcus Smart himself went 6th overall in a similarly suspect draft.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#304 » by doclinkin » Fri Oct 11, 2024 6:14 pm

nate33 wrote:You are projecting tail-end-of-the-bell-curve type of improvement for him to become the player you expect him to be. Sure, it's possible, but it's not something I'm comfortable projecting as probable.

I do think Castle will be a useful player, but I see him as a 4th/5th starter type of role player, which is not something I'd take at #2 overall. San Antonio getting him at #4 isn't so bad in a weak draft. After all, Marcus Smart himself went 6th overall in a similarly suspect draft.


Quoted before an edit. Darn.

Nope. I'm predicting that translatable stats will translate. And betting on the work ethic of a guy who is notably competitive with high BBIQ.

FT% tends to forecast 3FG% at the NBA level. A guy who is tall for his position will remain tall. And my read is that with the league getting more physical, physical players will succeed. Bigger and stronger will overtake faster and smaller. Steph is still Steph, but now the giants are all able to shoot as well.

As for #2. This was not a normal draft. We were drafting for the supporting cast of next year's stars. Me I'd take an all-defense role-player so the alpha wolf we recruit next year does not have to work so hard. Hopefully in Sarr we have done that. But to imagine him in that role we have to predict that he will begin to rebound with authority, in the way that he frankly hasn't at any level despite being tall since he was 'little' so to speak. A pro at age 15 in Spain and already nearly 7 feet. We will see. I like his start so far.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#305 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 11, 2024 7:07 pm

doclinkin wrote:
nate33 wrote:You are projecting tail-end-of-the-bell-curve type of improvement for him to become the player you expect him to be. Sure, it's possible, but it's not something I'm comfortable projecting as probable.

I do think Castle will be a useful player, but I see him as a 4th/5th starter type of role player, which is not something I'd take at #2 overall. San Antonio getting him at #4 isn't so bad in a weak draft. After all, Marcus Smart himself went 6th overall in a similarly suspect draft.


Quoted before an edit. Darn.

Nope. I'm predicting that translatable stats will translate. And betting on the work ethic of a guy who is notably competitive with high BBIQ.

FT% tends to forecast 3FG% at the NBA level. A guy who is tall for his position will remain tall. And my read is that with the league getting more physical, physical players will succeed. Bigger and stronger will overtake faster and smaller. Steph is still Steph, but now the giants are all able to shoot as well.

As for #2. This was not a normal draft. We were drafting for the supporting cast of next year's stars. Me I'd take an all-defense role-player so the alpha wolf we recruit next year does not have to work so hard. Hopefully in Sarr we have done that. But to imagine him in that role we have to predict that he will begin to rebound with authority, in the way that he frankly hasn't at any level despite being tall since he was 'little' so to speak. A pro at age 15 in Spain and already nearly 7 feet. We will see. I like his start so far.

I don't see him having the offensive chops to pan out as a guard. The nice thing about Castle is that he has the size to play SF, so if the guard thing doesn't work out, he still has a home at that position.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#306 » by DCZards » Fri Oct 11, 2024 8:41 pm

Castle says he models his game after Jrue Holiday. I believe he'll eventually display the unselfishness, winning pedigree and timely shooting/scoring that Holiday brought to the Bucks and Celts. On top of that, he'll easily be one of top defensive players in the NBA.

Stephon gets to learn under the Point Good--Chris Paul. It's going to be fun watching him prove his doubters wrong.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#307 » by AFM » Fri Oct 11, 2024 9:58 pm

AFM wrote:Little article in the athletic about Stoudemire Jr

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5835490/2024/10/11/alex-sarr-nba-scouts-evaluation/


Really good article if you have a NYT subscription

“Bigs have to have defensive versatility now to be impactful, and defensive versatility requires the ability to play multiple schemes in pick-and-roll coverage,” Scout B said. “He doesn’t have to just drop (for the team) to protect him. He can blitz a pick-and-roll. He can switch. Or he can drop. … I think defensively his ceiling is just enormous. He really could be someone that anchors one of the best seven defenses in the league.”
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#308 » by tontoz » Fri Oct 11, 2024 11:11 pm

AFM wrote:Little article in the athletic about Stoudemire Jr


You do realize that Sarr has very little in common with Amare, right? Amare wasn't known for defense at all, was frequently a bully on offense and loved the midrange shot
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#309 » by AFM » Fri Oct 11, 2024 11:59 pm

tontoz wrote:
AFM wrote:Little article in the athletic about Stoudemire Jr


You do realize that Sarr has very little in common with Amare, right? Amare wasn't known for defense at all, was frequently a bully on offense and loved the midrange shot

I'm willing it into existence
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#310 » by doclinkin » Sun Oct 13, 2024 1:05 pm

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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#311 » by nate33 » Sun Oct 13, 2024 1:55 pm

doclinkin wrote:

That's a pretty nice breakdown.

Defensively, Sarr is solid, though he makes mental lapses. He got beat in transition a bunch of times against Toronto but that should be easily correctable. He could be a neutral to positive defender on Day 1.

The offense is going to be tough because of the personnel we have around him. The narrator of this clip rightfully points out that Sarr isn't too far away from being a decent catch-and-shoot floor spacer if he can just get more decisive in attacking the closeout. The problem is, floor spacer is a role for a forward. (The center needs to be setting screens at the top of the key.) That means Sarr is going to have to play alongside JV or Bagley. And assuming Coulibaly is also in the lineup with his suspect handle, that's a lot of guys who can't handle the ball under pressure. Poole and Kuzma have to do all of the playmaking.

Basically, it's going to be real hard to play Coulibaly and Sarr together unless Sarr is at center, a position he isn't really ready to handle on offense.

I wonder if Keefe will get creative and play Kuzma as the center on offense, setting screens in the high post. That might work out okay because teams will be averse to switch with Kuzma because Kuzma is pretty good at bully balling smaller guards. If that works, then Sarr can play center on defense and forward on offense.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#312 » by closg00 » Sun Oct 13, 2024 2:10 pm

DCZards wrote:Castle says he models his game after Jrue Holiday. I believe he'll eventually display the unselfishness, same winning pedigree and timely shooting/scoring that Holiday brought to the Bucks and Celts. On top of that, he'll easily be one of top defensive players in the NBA.

Stephon gets to learn under the Point Good--Chris Paul. It's going to be fun watching him prove his doubters wrong.


I am really enjoying watching Castle, he is a smart player and will only get better.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#313 » by tontoz » Sun Oct 13, 2024 2:35 pm

I am not worried about his fit with other players at this point. I just think he isn't big/physical enough to play center and I doubt that changes. If he can make 3s consistently, which is a big if, then he can work as a 4.

I think that would be beneficial to the team because it would give us the chance to play a big front line with a lot of rim protection.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#314 » by Dat2U » Mon Oct 14, 2024 2:48 pm

DCZards wrote:Castle says he models his game after Jrue Holiday. I believe he'll eventually display the unselfishness, winning pedigree and timely shooting/scoring that Holiday brought to the Bucks and Celts. On top of that, he'll easily be one of top defensive players in the NBA.

Stephon gets to learn under the Point Good--Chris Paul. It's going to be fun watching him prove his doubters wrong.


I think Castle has more 'electricity' with the ball in his hands. Jrue was more polished offensively in college and the more accomplished albeit an inconsistent shooter. Castle can take advantage of mismatches and use his skill/strength to get all the way to the rim. There still is little in the way of a floater or mid-range game against the stronger defenders he'll see. He's shot well in a super small sample size from 3 but teams will let him fire it all day until he nails a few. The number of attempts will be important ... defenses are not worried about the guy that's only a threat to make one a game.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#315 » by closg00 » Wed Oct 23, 2024 5:44 pm

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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#316 » by AFM » Fri Oct 25, 2024 11:13 pm

The swag is insane.

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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#317 » by dckingsfan » Fri Oct 25, 2024 11:39 pm

tontoz wrote:I am not worried about his fit with other players at this point. I just think he isn't big/physical enough to play center and I doubt that changes. If he can make 3s consistently, which is a big if, then he can work as a 4.

I think that would be beneficial to the team because it would give us the chance to play a big front line with a lot of rim protection.

To add. I think it is great that they are playing the rookies substantial minutes.

I don't think that playing them out of position helps though. Your point about Sarr needing to play as forward now is spot on (IMO). He should be playing alongside Jonas.

But if you want to start Poole, Bub, Kuzma & Bilal. Well, that presents a problem, no?

Then again, if you are going for single digit wins this season - brilliant. But you may have a permanently broken player at the end.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#318 » by nate33 » Fri Oct 25, 2024 11:46 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
tontoz wrote:I am not worried about his fit with other players at this point. I just think he isn't big/physical enough to play center and I doubt that changes. If he can make 3s consistently, which is a big if, then he can work as a 4.

I think that would be beneficial to the team because it would give us the chance to play a big front line with a lot of rim protection.

To add. I think it is great that they are playing the rookies substantial minutes.

I don't think that playing them out of position helps though. Your point about Sarr needing to play as forward now is spot on (IMO). He should be playing alongside Jonas.

But if you want to start Poole, Bub, Kuzma & Bilal. Well, that presents a problem, no?

Then again, if you are going for single digit wins this season - brilliant. But you may have a permanently broken player at the end.

I think he should play 20 minutes at center on the second unit, while picking up a few extra minutes at PF alongside JV.

He just isn't capable of starting right now. Let him build some confidence against second-string competition. It was a mistake to start him on Day 1. Now, when he gets moved to the bench, it's going to feel like a demotion.
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#319 » by dckingsfan » Fri Oct 25, 2024 11:50 pm

nate33 wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:
tontoz wrote:I am not worried about his fit with other players at this point. I just think he isn't big/physical enough to play center and I doubt that changes. If he can make 3s consistently, which is a big if, then he can work as a 4.

I think that would be beneficial to the team because it would give us the chance to play a big front line with a lot of rim protection.

To add. I think it is great that they are playing the rookies substantial minutes.

I don't think that playing them out of position helps though. Your point about Sarr needing to play as forward now is spot on (IMO). He should be playing alongside Jonas.

But if you want to start Poole, Bub, Kuzma & Bilal. Well, that presents a problem, no?

Then again, if you are going for single digit wins this season - brilliant. But you may have a permanently broken player at the end.

I think he should play 20 minutes at center on the second unit, while picking up a few extra minutes at PF alongside JV.

He just isn't capable of starting right now. Let him build some confidence against second-string competition. It was a mistake to start him on Day 1. Now, when he gets moved to the bench, it's going to feel like a demotion.

Yep. Keefe was probably trying to do what the FO wanted but... a bit of a fail. :dontknow:
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Re: Alex Sarr 

Post#320 » by payitforward » Sat Oct 26, 2024 12:17 am

I like that idea, nate. OTOH, I am not worried about him feeling demoted.

I'm guessing that Keefe is presenting everything as "experimenting" right now. As long as he gets minutes he'll feel supported -- or so it seems to me.

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