Retro Player of the Year 1978-79 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[One_and_Done]

One thing worth noting is that Elvin Hayes had a terrible rep as a team mate.

[penbeast0]

One thing worth noting is that Elvin Hayes had a terrible rep as a team mate.

He did. Wes was always the face of the franchise, pretty much from when we traded Earl Monroe until today. But the Wiz made it work for that decade with Wes and Elvin as well as anyone else in the entire league more or less. I don't think they underperformed their talent; they just didn't have Kareem's level of ability (few ever have).

[Djoker]

Question for you. IF you have the following team:

Norm Nixon (2.8/9.0/1.07)
Lou Hudson (1.8/1.8/9.8 in 21 minutes)
Adrian Dantley (5.7/2.3/17.4)
Jamaal Wilkes (7.4/2.8/18.6)
with Ron Boone, Don Ford, Jim Price, Kenny Carr, and Dave Robisch for a solid professional bench
good health with Dantley the only one missing more than 10 games (played 60 but healthy for playoffs)
and an above average but not great Jack Sikma/Sam Lacey/Tree Rollins caliber center.

Wouldn't you expect that to be a competitive playoff team with a winning record if not a true title contender? I would.

It's a bad fit around Kareem with a bunch of scorers everywhere and they play with little fire or enthusiasm outside Nixon. That's why I don't consider this a strong Kareem season. He's still the most talented player in the league but that's a lot of talent for not much result.

The Lakers had scoring talent for sure but offense wasn't really their problem. They had a healthy +2.3 rORtg which was good for 5th in the league. The biggest problem was that, apart from Kareem, no one else on that roster really excelled on the defensive end except maybe Wilkes. They were -0.6 rDRtg which was 11th. The perimeter defense was non-existent which was why the Seattle trio of Gus, DJ and Freddie Brown lit them up like a Christmas tree in that series. And Seattle also destroyed them on the boards because no one apart from Kareem and Wilkes was a capable rebounder on the team.

[OhayoKD]

Question for you. IF you have the following team:

Norm Nixon (2.8/9.0/1.07)
Lou Hudson (1.8/1.8/9.8 in 21 minutes)
Adrian Dantley (5.7/2.3/17.4)
Jamaal Wilkes (7.4/2.8/18.6)
with Ron Boone, Don Ford, Jim Price, Kenny Carr, and Dave Robisch for a solid professional bench
good health with Dantley the only one missing more than 10 games (played 60 but healthy for playoffs)
and an above average but not great Jack Sikma/Sam Lacey/Tree Rollins caliber center.

Wouldn't you expect that to be a competitive playoff team with a winning record if not a true title contender? I would.

It's a bad fit around Kareem with a bunch of scorers everywhere and they play with little fire or enthusiasm outside Nixon. That's why I don't consider this a strong Kareem season. He's still the most talented player in the league but that's a lot of talent for not much result.

I don't really understand this bit. They were a 47-win team which means they were well above .500, and then won a playoff series vs another 47-win team before taking a game from the eventual champions in a series where the M.O.V was 4 points and 3 of the losses were in single-digits.

Where did the idea they were not a team with a winning record or competitive playoff team come from?

[70sFan]

Question for you. IF you have the following team:

Norm Nixon (2.8/9.0/1.07)
Lou Hudson (1.8/1.8/9.8 in 21 minutes)
Adrian Dantley (5.7/2.3/17.4)
Jamaal Wilkes (7.4/2.8/18.6)
with Ron Boone, Don Ford, Jim Price, Kenny Carr, and Dave Robisch for a solid professional bench
good health with Dantley the only one missing more than 10 games (played 60 but healthy for playoffs)
and an above average but not great Jack Sikma/Sam Lacey/Tree Rollins caliber center.

Wouldn't you expect that to be a competitive playoff team with a winning record if not a true title contender? I would.

It's a bad fit around Kareem with a bunch of scorers everywhere and they play with little fire or enthusiasm outside Nixon. That's why I don't consider this a strong Kareem season. He's still the most talented player in the league but that's a lot of talent for not much result.

I don't really understand this bit. They were a 47-win team which means they were well above .500, and then won a playoff series vs another 47-win team before taking a game from the eventual champions in a series where the M.O.V was 4 points and 3 of the losses were in single-digits.

Where did the idea they were not a team with a winning record or competitive playoff team come from?

The question was without Kareem.

[penbeast0]

More specifically, with an above average defensive/rebounding center but not one who could in any stretch of the imagination be called the best player in the league that year, would the team look significantly worse or do pretty much the same. With that particular mix of talent, I'd guess pretty much the same. FWIW.

[Dr Positivity]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: With him playing a full season hard to not pick the overall best player.

2. George Gervin - Moses didn't have a great playoffs and Gervin won as many games with less this year and almost made finals with worse team, and as primary offensive players I give Gervin the advantage.

3. Moses Malone - Weaker MVP for me than his others but still a force with efficient scoring and rebounding and I presume more defensive impact than some of the perimeter stars even if on a weaker team overall on that end.

4. Elvin Hayes - His efficiency is not as good in the playoffs but was relied on as volume scorer in tough finals run, and still has more two way impact than these guys

5. Paul Westphal - Superb mix of scoring and playmaking for this era, leads another good Suns team.

I went back and forth with Dr J but ultimately it's just not his best season and they play .500 without Collins despite having the 80s core forming like Cheeks, Jones and Cunningham and no McGinnis, and I couldn't convince myself that the defensive gap over Westphal was really that big and I prefer the latter on offense this year. Gus isn't close to these guys in the RS though has a nice playoffs.

Offensive player of the year

1. George Gervin
2. Paul Westphal
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Defensive player of the year

1. Bobby Jones
2. Elvin Hayes
3. Dennis Johnson

[Narigo]

1.Kareem Abdul Jabbar- Once again the best player in the game by a far margin

2.Marques Johnson- Best forward in the game this season. Didnt have a good support as this time so the Bucks missed the playoffs

3. George Gervin- Was an excellent scorer in the regular season and in the playoffs he was better

4. Moses Malone- Probably second or third best player in the regular season. But in the playoffs, he was not good in the scoring department. Could change my mind and put him at 5

5. Gus Williams- Best player on the Sonic's, he leads Sonic's to the title. Is fifth on my list regular season wise, but I might put him 4th because of postseason

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 9 voters: Djoker, AEnigma, Dr. Positivity, Penbeast, One_and_Done, capfan33, 70sFan, Narigo, and trelos. Penbeast, One_and_Done, and Narigo abstained from voting for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1978-79 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (5)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  3   0   2    17   0.567
2. George Gervin  2   1   2    15    0.500
3. Paul Westphal   1   2   2   13    0.433
4. Moses Malone   0   2   0    6    0.200
5. Gus Williams   0   1   0    3    0.100

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Elvin Hayes

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Elvin Hayes    3   1   1    19    0.633
2. Bobby Jones    1   1   0    8    0.267
2. Jack Sikma    1   1   0    8    0.267
4. Dennis Johnson    0   1   3    6    0.200
5. Sam Lacey    1   0   0    5    0.167
6. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  0   1   1    4   0.133
7. Dan Roundfield    0   1   0    3    0.100
8. Robert Parish    0   0   1    1    0.033

Retro Player of the Year — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (9)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 8 0 0 1 0   83   0.922
2. George Gervin  0  4  4  0  0   48   0.533
3. Moses Malone  0  2  1  2  2   27   0.300
4. Julius Erving  0  1  3  0  0   22   0.244
5. Gus Williams  0  1  0  3  2   18    0.200
6. Elvin Hayes   1  0  0  2  0   16   0.178
7. Marques Johnson   0  1  0  0  1   8   0.089
8. Dennis Johnson  0  0  1  0  0   5   0.056
9. Paul Westphal   0  0  0  0  4   4   0.044
10. Artis Gilmore   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.033

In the prior project, there were 14 votes, with Dr. Positivity and penbeast overlapping. With their prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 21 total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 19 0 1 1 0   198   0.943
2. George Gervin  1  12  6  1  0   127   0.605
3. Moses Malone  0  6  7  4  2   91   0.433
4. Julius Erving  0  1  5  5  1   48   0.229
5. Marques Johnson   0  1  1  3  2   23   0.110
6. Elvin Hayes   1  0  0  3  3   22   0.105
7. Gus Williams  0  1  0  3  2   18    0.086
8. Dennis Johnson  0  0  1  0  4   9   0.043
9. Paul Westphal   0  0  0  0  4   4   0.019
10a. Bob Dandridge   0  0  0  0  3   3   0.014
10b. Artis Gilmore   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.014

1980 thread will open shortly.

[DNice68]

1.Kareem Abdul Jabbar- Once again the best player in the game by a far margin

2.Marques Johnson- Best forward in the game this season. Didnt have a good support as this time so the Bucks missed the playoffs

3. George Gervin- Was an excellent scorer in the regular season and in the playoffs he was better

4. Moses Malone- Probably second or third best player in the regular season. But in the playoffs, he was not good in the scoring department. Could change my mind and put him at 5

5. Gus Williams- Best player on the Sonic's, he leads Sonic's to the title. Is fifth on my list regular season wise, but I might put him 4th because of postseason

Agree about this top 5 here. Don Nelson made the Bucks worse with his decisions. It doesn’t change the fact that Marques Johnson left every forward including Dr. J in the dust for the year!

[One_and_Done]

1.Kareem Abdul Jabbar- Once again the best player in the game by a far margin

2.Marques Johnson- Best forward in the game this season. Didnt have a good support as this time so the Bucks missed the playoffs

3. George Gervin- Was an excellent scorer in the regular season and in the playoffs he was better

4. Moses Malone- Probably second or third best player in the regular season. But in the playoffs, he was not good in the scoring department. Could change my mind and put him at 5

5. Gus Williams- Best player on the Sonic's, he leads Sonic's to the title. Is fifth on my list regular season wise, but I might put him 4th because of postseason

Agree about this top 5 here. Don Nelson made the Bucks worse with his decisions. It doesn’t change the fact that Marques Johnson left every forward including Dr. J in the dust for the year!

Don Nelson on the Bucks was one of the most underrated GMs of all-time.