2024 WNBA Awards Discussion Thread

[KembaWalker]

It’s not racist to observe how stupid and undeserving of a vote someone who’s job it is to cover the WNBA and voting for Angel Reese this season is.

It would have been just as stupid to vote for Chet Holgrem over Wemby. Of course, that didn’t happen. Pointing out other times voters were stupid is also a major whiff. Nobody ever said this was the first moronic vote in the history of voting. The men’s side has had some moronic ones recently, mostly revolving around Jokic. But that’s irrelevant to the point

Yall are embarrassing yourselves (again), badly. I guess that’s why everyone’s afraid to directly quote

[RSCD3_]

Tiffany Hayes 6MOY Winner, Leonie Fiebich was 2nd with 21 to Haye's 38 votes

[MrDollarBills]

Read on Twitter

[hermes]

that's an interesting trophy design, don't think i've seen one like that before

[Doctor MJ]

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Hello W Forummates!

With the WNBA Finals kicking off tonight, I wanted to make sure that people are aware of the Project I'm intending to run soon after the Finals end.

Over on the PC Board at the end of every NBA season I do an awards project where contributors are invited to vote for who they think deserved a variety of awards. I want us to now do this for the W too!

Some notes:

1. These projects are All-Season awards. Meaning they aren't just about the regular season, but also the playoffs. It's about who achieved the most - within the context of that award - over the entirety of that season.

2. The big award is the Player of the Year (POY) award. This is like the actual MVP - complete with 5-player ballots. Beyond that we'll have:

Offensive Player of the Year (OPOY)
Defensive Player of the Year (DPOY)
Rookie of the Year (ROY)
Most Improved Player (MIP)
6th Woman of the Year (6WOY)
Coach of the Year (COY)
Executive of the Year (EOY)

Each of these will be 3-person ballots.

3. To participate, the only requirement is that you have to do the POY vote. All other awards are optional.

4. To participate in any award, you'll need to complete a full ballot because our point system will depend on it.

5. If I included you in this post, you're invited to be on the panel, but please confirm to me via PM if you're interested.

6. If you're not included but your interested, let me know and make sure you have evidence of participation before the final buzzer sounds.

Please let me know if you have any questions,
Cheers,
Doc

[Colbinii]

One final petty shot from the women’s basketball “community”

Hmm. Now what do you mean by this?

You do realize that these awards aren't voted on by players, but by media and journalists right?

One journalist voted for Angel. What does that have to do with the women's basketball "community".

"Community". Hmm.

Very weird comment.

Thought I couldn’t have made that any more blatantly obvious by using the term “community” and not “players”

The only thing that’s weird is voting Angel Reese for ROTY. Well, that and Angel Reese getting on an MVP ballot. Incredibly weird. Award ballots aren’t a place for trolling. Name, shame, revoke

I assume you were crying on this forum when LeBron wasn't unanimous in 2013 as Carmelo Anthony of all people received 1 vote?

[KembaWalker]

Hmm. Now what do you mean by this?

You do realize that these awards aren't voted on by players, but by media and journalists right?

One journalist voted for Angel. What does that have to do with the women's basketball "community".

"Community". Hmm.

Very weird comment.

Thought I couldn’t have made that any more blatantly obvious by using the term “community” and not “players”

The only thing that’s weird is voting Angel Reese for ROTY. Well, that and Angel Reese getting on an MVP ballot. Incredibly weird. Award ballots aren’t a place for trolling. Name, shame, revoke

I assume you were crying on this forum when LeBron wasn't unanimous in 2013 as Carmelo Anthony of all people received 1 vote?

“Someone else made a dumb vote an entire decade ago therefore you can’t point out a dumb vote now!”

Wow brilliant take there thanks for the contribution

[bisme37]

Congrats!

Read on Twitter

[Sealab2024]

Congrats!

Read on Twitter

Just saw this. CC getting the 1st team by that much over Sabrina is a bit shocking. Like I get it, and her making the 1st team isn't overall surprising, but that's a very clear margin there.

[MrDollarBills]

Congrats!

Read on Twitter

*sees three Liberty players on the team*

*nods in approval*

[Doctor MJ]

Just saw this. CC getting the 1st team by that much over Sabrina is a bit shocking. Like I get it, and her making the 1st team isn't overall surprising, but that's a very clear margin there.

It makes sense given how votings have been going, but I continue to find it remarkable where Clark ended up stacking up in the consensus relative to Sabrina in particular, given that she was very much hyped to be the WNBA's next generation crossover star before her early pro stumbles (and she still has ad deals arguably beyond her station).

More generally: During the season, I did not realize that people were seeing Clark was having a Top 5 MVP season, and it really still feels out of place to me...but I also had Phee as MVP when none of them did, and wouldn't have even considered Arike over McBride.

In each case, the common thread seems to be that MVP voters love big box scores not just more than I do (which I'd expect), but beyond what I think NBA voters have ever been known for. It kinda feels like baseball reasoning.

(To be clear, I do think there's considerably more to it than that, but there are going to places where I'd diverge dramatically from them.)

[Sealab2024]

Just saw this. CC getting the 1st team by that much over Sabrina is a bit shocking. Like I get it, and her making the 1st team isn't overall surprising, but that's a very clear margin there.

It makes sense given how votings have been going, but I continue to find it remarkable where Clark ended up stacking up in the consensus relative to Sabrina in particular, given that she was very much hyped to be the WNBA's next generation crossover star before her early pro stumbles (and she still has ad deals arguably beyond her station).

More generally: During the season, I did not realize that people were seeing Clark was having a Top 5 MVP season, and it really still feels out of place to me...but I also had Phee as MVP when none of them did, and wouldn't have even considered Arike over McBride.

In each case, the common thread seems to be that MVP voters love big box scores not just more than I do (which I'd expect), but beyond what I think NBA voters have ever been known for. It kinda feels like baseball reasoning.

(To be clear, I do think there's considerably more to it than that, but there are going to places where I'd diverge dramatically from them.)

I think it comes down to how she finished relative to the start really, which is much of the reason I'm surprised she made 1st team at all. By the end of the year she was carrying that Indiana franchise for sure, but the beginning was not great. Same reason I couldn't give Wemby the DPOY last year, because he took 4 months to get to that point. Recency bias I'm sure has a lot to do with it along with the obvious fan appeal. At least Sabrina got love on the 2nd team.

[MrDollarBills]

I have zero issue with Clark making 1st team. She was the best PG in the league

[tmorgan]

Yeah, I don’t see an issue with CC by a wide margin over Sabrina at all. Sabrina’s a more polished player right now, obviously, but Clark creates a ton more offense as a vastly superior playmaker.

If Ionescu was a much better defender, sure, then there would be a debate. She’s not, she’s mediocre, as is Clark, but CC is going to get better on that end.

[MrDollarBills]

Yeah, I don’t see an issue with CC by a wide margin over Sabrina at all. Sabrina’s a more polished player right now, obviously, but Clark creates a ton more offense as a vastly superior playmaker.

If Ionescu was a much better defender, sure, then there would be a debate. She’s not, she’s mediocre, as is Clark, but CC is going to get better on that end.

I have one disagreement here. Sabrina has improved a lot as a defender from last year. She is way stronger and is no longer a liability. As the Aces discovered to their discontent.

Sabrina is more of a combo guard though that leans towards SG. CC is a pure PG. Their games are vastly different imo what do you think?

[Doctor MJ]

Yeah, I don’t see an issue with CC by a wide margin over Sabrina at all. Sabrina’s a more polished player right now, obviously, but Clark creates a ton more offense as a vastly superior playmaker.

If Ionescu was a much better defender, sure, then there would be a debate. She’s not, she’s mediocre, as is Clark, but CC is going to get better on that end.

Hmm, so on the bold, when you use the phrase "vastly superior playmaker" about Clark while calling Sabrina "more polished", it just doesn't make sense to me. Sabrina was Clark before Clark. She was specifically known for playing a helio type role until Stewie & co joined the team, and if Clark got put on a team with Stewie & co, she wouldn't be playing helio either.

I'm not really looking to insist Sabrina should be rated ahead of Clark for 2024, but I do think we need to keep in mind that the volume of Clark's production - especially in relation to assists - is primarily about role rather than unique greatness.

Let me also make clear: Clark as the new Sabrina was always a "new and improved version", and her WNBA journey from start-to-awesome has been far faster than Sabrina was. I'm not looking to argue against Clark as being the most impressive young guard in the W we've ever seen.

But Clark's not putting up these number on the Liberty, it's entirely possible the LIberty get worse with her in Sabrina's place, and Sabrina on the Fever in Clark's place probably ends up with a similar 2024 record.

[MrDollarBills]

Yeah, I don’t see an issue with CC by a wide margin over Sabrina at all. Sabrina’s a more polished player right now, obviously, but Clark creates a ton more offense as a vastly superior playmaker.

If Ionescu was a much better defender, sure, then there would be a debate. She’s not, she’s mediocre, as is Clark, but CC is going to get better on that end.

Hmm, so on the bold, when you use the phrase "vastly superior playmaker" about Clark while calling Sabrina "more polished", it just doesn't make sense to me. Sabrina was Clark before Clark. She was specifically known for playing a helio type role until Stewie & co joined the team, and if Clark got put on a team with Stewie & co, she wouldn't be playing helio either.

I'm not really looking to insist Sabrina should be rated ahead of Clark for 2024, but I do think we need to keep in mind that the volume of Clark's production - especially in relation to assists - is primarily about role rather than unique greatness.

Let me also make clear: Clark as the new Sabrina was always a "new and improved version", and her WNBA journey from start-to-awesome has been far faster than Sabrina was. I'm not looking to argue against Clark as being the most impressive young guard in the W we've ever seen.

But Clark's not putting up these number on the Liberty, it's entirely possible the LIberty get worse with her in Sabrina's place, and Sabrina on the Fever in Clark's place probably ends up with a similar 2024 record.

I feel like Sabrina and CC have vastly different games. Sabrina is more Steph like, CC makes me think of Nash and Kidd.

Clark is a superior playmaker in terms of facilitating. Again, she is one of the best passers i have ever seen play professionally and that goes for all genders. Excellent rebounder for a guard as well.

Sabrina qualifies to me as a 3 level scorer with her ability to deep space, her mid range floater and ability to finish at the cup.

Ball handle I think is equal, but I like Sabrina better in half court situations where CC is lethal in transition

[Doctor MJ]

Yeah, I don’t see an issue with CC by a wide margin over Sabrina at all. Sabrina’s a more polished player right now, obviously, but Clark creates a ton more offense as a vastly superior playmaker.

If Ionescu was a much better defender, sure, then there would be a debate. She’s not, she’s mediocre, as is Clark, but CC is going to get better on that end.

Hmm, so on the bold, when you use the phrase "vastly superior playmaker" about Clark while calling Sabrina "more polished", it just doesn't make sense to me. Sabrina was Clark before Clark. She was specifically known for playing a helio type role until Stewie & co joined the team, and if Clark got put on a team with Stewie & co, she wouldn't be playing helio either.

I'm not really looking to insist Sabrina should be rated ahead of Clark for 2024, but I do think we need to keep in mind that the volume of Clark's production - especially in relation to assists - is primarily about role rather than unique greatness.

Let me also make clear: Clark as the new Sabrina was always a "new and improved version", and her WNBA journey from start-to-awesome has been far faster than Sabrina was. I'm not looking to argue against Clark as being the most impressive young guard in the W we've ever seen.

But Clark's not putting up these number on the Liberty, it's entirely possible the LIberty get worse with her in Sabrina's place, and Sabrina on the Fever in Clark's place probably ends up with a similar 2024 record.

I feel like Sabrina and CC have vastly different games. Sabrina is more Steph like, CC makes me think of Nash and Kidd.

Clark is a superior playmaker in terms of facilitating. Again, she is one of the best passers i have ever seen play professionally and that goes for all genders. Excellent rebounder for a guard as well.

Sabrina qualifies to me as a 3 level scorer with her ability to deep space, her mid range floater and ability to finish at the cup.

Ball handle I think is equal, but I like Sabrina better in half court situations where CC is lethal in transition

Perfectly reasonable to come to the conclusion that Clark is a considerably better passer than Ionescu, but I think it's important to remember what these players were seen as out of college, because it seems like perception has since flipped.

Ionescu's primary thing was the triple double, and she holds therecord in women's NCAA more than doubling Clark (who comes in second).

Clark's primary thing was that 3-point shooting volume, where she led the NCAA in 3's 3 out of 4 years (while Ionescu never did).

Not denying that Clark had an outstanding rep as a passer in college because she certainly did, but first and foremost she was seen as the Steph of the women's game while Sabrina was a bit more Kidd/Westbrook.

(ftr, I do see Clark as closer to Nash than to Steph.)

[MrDollarBills]

Hmm, so on the bold, when you use the phrase "vastly superior playmaker" about Clark while calling Sabrina "more polished", it just doesn't make sense to me. Sabrina was Clark before Clark. She was specifically known for playing a helio type role until Stewie & co joined the team, and if Clark got put on a team with Stewie & co, she wouldn't be playing helio either.

I'm not really looking to insist Sabrina should be rated ahead of Clark for 2024, but I do think we need to keep in mind that the volume of Clark's production - especially in relation to assists - is primarily about role rather than unique greatness.

Let me also make clear: Clark as the new Sabrina was always a "new and improved version", and her WNBA journey from start-to-awesome has been far faster than Sabrina was. I'm not looking to argue against Clark as being the most impressive young guard in the W we've ever seen.

But Clark's not putting up these number on the Liberty, it's entirely possible the LIberty get worse with her in Sabrina's place, and Sabrina on the Fever in Clark's place probably ends up with a similar 2024 record.

I feel like Sabrina and CC have vastly different games. Sabrina is more Steph like, CC makes me think of Nash and Kidd.

Clark is a superior playmaker in terms of facilitating. Again, she is one of the best passers i have ever seen play professionally and that goes for all genders. Excellent rebounder for a guard as well.

Sabrina qualifies to me as a 3 level scorer with her ability to deep space, her mid range floater and ability to finish at the cup.

Ball handle I think is equal, but I like Sabrina better in half court situations where CC is lethal in transition

Perfectly reasonable to come to the conclusion that Clark is a considerably better passer than Ionescu, but I think it's important to remember what these players were seen as out of college, because it seems like perception has since flipped.

Ionescu's primary thing was the triple double, and she holds therecord in women's NCAA more than doubling Clark (who comes in second).

Clark's primary thing was that 3-point shooting volume, where she led the NCAA in 3's 3 out of 4 years (while Ionescu never did).

Not denying that Clark had an outstanding rep as a passer in college because she certainly did, but first and foremost she was seen as the Steph of the women's game while Sabrina was a bit more Kidd/Westbrook.

(ftr, I do see Clark as closer to Nash than to Steph.)

Yeah this is wild to think about how things have flipped since college. If you told me that Sabrina will rack a triple double any time soon, I wouldn't believe you.

[tmorgan]

Sorry, didn’t respond quickly.

Clark was a volume scorer in college because she backpacked that roster to deep tourney runs. She also spoon fed her teammates buckets via sensational passing, but the best shot was usually her taking it.

Ionescu lost more physical advantage in the pros than CC did, so she was no longer a rebounding threat most of the time.

I really enjoy watching Ionescu play, her offensive game is fully fleshed out and hard to stop. Clark has holes (mostly mid-range, and paint pull-ups or floaters) she needs to work on. But I strongly disagree about the outcome if they switched teams. Ionescu could not pull that Fever roster as far up as Clark did, and Caitlin could average something nutty like 18 and 12 on the Liberty with better spacing and better finishers. She’s just a better player, even now, and the gap should widen over the next couple of seasons.