Retro Player of the Year 1979-80 UPDATE — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[Djoker]

I still wonder if Magic had more impact than we realize because the Lakers did improve a lot from 1979 to 1980. Sure a large chunk of it was defensive improvement but we still can't discount Magic because sometimes teams change stylistically when a great player joins them. It's easy to say that defense improved because Dantley was replaced by Chones and Cooper came on but it could be Magic responsible for a brunt of that improvement too by allowing the Lakers to play more defensive guys (ex. Chones over Dantley) and still get better on offense. Also interesting that the Sonics improved quite a bit from their title year and yet they went from dispatching the Lakers in 5 to losing in 5 games to the Lakers although both series had close games. Undecided on who makes it -- Gervin vs. Earvin!

[AEnigma]

Defensive Player of the year

1 - Bob Lanier
2 - Moses Malone
3 - Kareem

Mind expanding on this? Especially if you see Moses as “an unknown,” this feels inexplicably laudatory.

[AEnigma]

I still wonder if Magic had more impact than we realize because the Lakers did improve a lot from 1979 to 1980. Sure a large chunk of it was defensive improvement but we still can't discount Magic because sometimes teams change stylistically when a great player joins them. It's easy to say that defense improved because Dantley was replaced by Chones and Cooper came on but it could be Magic responsible for a brunt of that improvement too by allowing the Lakers to play more defensive guys (ex. Chones over Dantley) and still get better on offense. Also interesting that the Sonics improved quite a bit from their title year and yet they went from dispatching the Lakers in 5 to losing in 5 games to the Lakers although both series had close games.

Yeah, the real shift is visible in the postseason, much like with Parish joining the Celtics next year. A healthy Magic is the difference between the Lakers being the league’s best postseason team and struggling within their own conference.

[AEnigma]

Going back through these starting from 79-80 forward. Reading threads, watching what players I can, and then posting what my votes would have been.

1. KAJ- Pretty clear-cut, easily the best player on the best team in the league. Top tier on both offense and defense. Agree with others from earlier in the thread that he probably should have been finals MVP even with the missed game 6.
2. DrJ- Kind of by default, Magic/Bird not quite there yet, and Moses had a bit of an off season.
3. Bird- Way ahead of Magic during the regular season, and he wasn't bad in the playoffs.
4. Magic- Probably not top 5 for regular season, but had a very good playoff run that'd probably leave him at #2.
5. Moses- Not much to say, great player, not his best season.

HM(in order):
Marques Johnson- Got booted out of the top 5 by Magic's great playoff run.
George Gervin- Great scorer, super one dimensional though.

Checking in because it has been a while since you voted. You wrote this in 2016. Anything you would change or retract?

[Dr Positivity]

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - Still the best player with very very efficient year and elite playoffs including what would've been his signature game if not overshadowed by Magic.

2. Julius Erving - Superstar in his prime and seems like he had to carry a big offensive load on this elite team.

3. Moses Malone - I'll go with the established MVP caliber star here over the two rookies with 26, 15 and probably more defensive impact than players like Gervin and Gus

4. Larry Bird - His stats are good not amazing, but hard to ignore the team impact.

5. Magic Johnson - Elite offensive player already, nice playoff end.

Offensive player of year

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Magic Johnson

Defensive player of the year

1. Kareem Adbul-Jabbar
2. Bobby Jones
3. Dave Cowens

I think Sikma and Roundfield are close to DJ and Rollins so not sure I should vote for any, and I don't know anything about Sam Lacey or whether he was a better defender than some perimeter guy, I'd rather just hypothesize that Cowens was still best Celtics defender as I'm not sure that team looks that great on that end 1-4.

[Djoker]

VOTING POST

POY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 1st Team All-NBA. 1st Team All-Defense. MVP. Should have been Finals MVP. Just the best player in the world and led his team to a dominating championship. Missing Game 6 takes a bit of lustre off of the season and prevents it from being maybe the GOAT big man season ever. Just a total monster. Averaged 24.8/10.8/4.5 on 63.9 %TS (+10.8 rTS) in the RS and then 31.9/12.1/3.1 on 61.1 %TS (+9.9 rTS) in the PS.

2. Julius Erving - 1st Team All-NBA. Really good all-around player. Led the Sixers to the #2 seed in the East and then outplayed Bird as the Sixers upset the Celtics in the ECF. Erving then followed it up with a really good Finals against the Lakers albeit in a losing effort. All in all, it was the Doctor's best RS in a Sixers uniform and he followed it it up with a terrific PS run as well. Averaged 26.9/7.4/4.6 on 56.8 %TS (+3.7 rTS) in the RS then 24.4/7.6/4.4 on 55.3 %TS (+3.6 rTS) in the PS.

3. Larry Bird - 1st Team All-NBA. Maybe the best all-around player in the NBA even as a rookie and he led a monumental improvement in Boston with his arrival taking the team from 29 wins and -4.78 SRS to 61 wins and +7.37 SRS. He had a particularly weak PS however in which he got ouplayed by the guy ahead of him. Averaged 21.3/10.4/4.5 on 53.8 %TS (+0.7 rTS) in the RS then 21.3/11.2/4.7 on 51.1 %TS (-1.2 rTS) in the PS.

4. Moses Malone - 2nd Team All-NBA. A ferocious scorer and rebounder and the 2nd best big man in the league after Kareem. Fouled out opposing bigs left and right and actually improved as a player since his MVP season in the previous year. Averaged 25.8/14.5/1.8 on 56.0 %TS (+2.9 rTS) in the RS and then 25.9/13.9/1.0 on 57.7 %TS (+4.5 rTS) in the PS.

5. Magic Johnson - I was mulling over it and the Magic man made my ballot at the end. I don't like the rookie jitters, the turnovers and the off court antics but the Lakers did improve a ton with his arrival and he did have a huge Game 6 to win the title. Yes it is one game but Gervin showed less in the PS considering his super short playoff run. Averaged 18.0/7.7/7.3 on 60.2 %TS (+7.1 rTS) in the RS then 18.3/10.5/9.4 on 59.6 %TS (+8.4 rTS) in the PS.

HM: George Gervin - 1st Team All-NBA. Legendary scorer. Averaged 33.1/5.2/2.6 on 58.7 %TS (+5.6 rTS) in the RS and then 33.3/6.7/4.0 on 57.3 %TS (+2.9 rTS) in the PS. Losing early in the playoffs means he just misses out for me. It was a very tough decision.

OPOY

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

2. Julius Erving

3. Larry Bird

The top guys on the POY are the top OPOY ballots too. This year isn't too strong for defense especially among the top scorers. Only Kareem is a really impactful defender.

DPOY

1. Bobby Jones - 1st Team All-Defense. Anchored the tied for #1 defense.

2. Caldwell Jones - Also on the same Sixers team. Fantastic defender at C.

3. Jack Sikma - Anchored the #3 Sonics defense.

[70sFan]

Player of the Year
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Julius Erving
3. Larry Bird
4. Moses Malone
5. Gus Williams
HM: George Gervin, Paul Westphal, Magic Johnson

I agree that it's quite offense-heavy year for top players. Let's make a short breakdown for each choice:

1. I don't see any reason to discuss Kareem's case here and I'm shocked that he won't be the unanimous choice for POY this season. Nobody came even close to him throughout the whole season, he was well-deserved RS MVP and was definitely the best player in the playoffs.

2. Erving vs Bird is slightly closer as you can argue that Larry had more impact in the RS with the massive Boston swing from the last season... but I just flat out disagree that Bird was the only reason why Celtics became so good. Some posters made a strong case that the lack of replicability of such signal in Bird's career doesn't support the idea that he was worth of such a massive leap. It's still reasonable to put Bird ahead for the RS, but Julius had a fantastic postseason run (very underrated one) and he outplayed Bird massively in the H2H series. The truth is that Bird's game early in his career wasn't that reliable as the clear main offensive option.

3. Moses didn't have a great success during that season, but I don't blame him for that. He played very well against the Spurs in the playoffs and although the Rockets got completely blown out by the Celtics, I don't think it's Moses fault. In a tougher year he could be even out of top 5, but I don't find the remaining candidates cases strong enough to put them ahead of Moses, who I consider to be clearly better than them in a vacuum.

4. Gus vs Gervin vs Westphal vs Magic is a very close battle. I decided to put a player that had overall the best postseason performance in my opinion. I could see Gervin finishing higher, as he might be the best player in a vacuum, but Spurs losing to the Rockets so badly hurts his case (even though his boxscore numbers seems fine). Magic had really high moments during the season, but people sometimes forget how unpolished he was at that point and how many times Kareem was forced to carry the Lakers in the playoffs.

OPOY
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Larry Bird
3. George Gervin
HM: Moses Malone, Julius Erving, Gus Williams

I still don't find Bird's case strong enough to compete with Kareem, but I give him the benefit of doubt to put him ahead of many great offensive players.

DPOY
1.Caldwell Jones
2. Dan Roundfield
3. Dennis Johnson
HM: Bobby Jones, Jack Sikma

Caldwell is well-deserved DPOY choice to me, Sixers relied on him heavily and he delievered. Very mobile, great length and solid rim protector. Of course he got abused by bigger Kareem in the finals, but Kareem abused Sikma the series before as well.

Roundfield was a fantasting all-around defender that doesn't get enough recognition historically. I know having Rollins behind him helps, but I find him to be a well-deserved candidate.

Dennis vs Sikma is probably one of the most interesting discussions about defensive impact for me in the whole history of the game. Sikma was a very solid all-around defender and I'm sure that the Sonics defense would struggle a lot without his presence. At the same time though, he wasn't elite defender while young DJ (not the one that got abused by Jordan, the athletic freak that played in the Sonics and the Suns) was one of the finest defensive guards in the league history. Maybe I am overreacting to his guard defense, but I find him to be more important for the Sonics.

I feel very bad for missing out Bobby Jones, who was per minute one of the best defenders ever, but I am very strict about players missing time or playing limited minutes.

[kcktiny]

but I just flat out disagree that Bird was the only reason why Celtics became so good

He wasn't.

Bird was the key reason the team improved as much as they did. But the other key reason was the addition of M.L. Carr.

They signed Carr as a free agent going into the 1979-80 season. He was a great defender and although he was just the team's 6th man and played only 24 min/g (compared to the 40 min/g he played the year prior with Detroit) he got both Bird and Dave Cowens to commit to playing great defense. Cowens had kind of lost his enthusiasm on that end of the floor the previous season (1978-79) and as Bird has said Carr got them re-invigorated on the defensive end.

Bird has been quoted as saying Dennis Johnson was the best player he ever played with. But he's also been quoted as saying M.L. Carr was the best teammate he ever had.

I feel very bad for missing out Bobby Jones, who was per minute one of the best defenders ever

From 1978-79 to 1983-84, the 76ers were the best defensive team in the league (just 100.9 pts/100poss allowed). Those 6 seasons Jones played the 3rd most minutes on Philadelphia (only Erving and Cheeks played more) but he was the key reason they were so good defensively (C.J. notwithstanding, but he was awesome defensively too, as was Cheeks).

[Dr Positivity]

Archibald had easily better season in 1980 though you can claim that Bird helped make him better.

[AEnigma]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 14 voters: Djoker, AEnigma, Ardee, B-Mitch 30, ILikeShaiGuys, ShaqAttac, Dr. Positivity, Penbeast, One_and_Done, ceoofkobefans, 70sFan, Narigo, trelos, and eminence*. Penbeast, One_and_Done, ShaqAttac, Narigo, and eminence* abstained from voting for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1979-80 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (6)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  7   1   0    38   0.844
2. Julius Erving  0   4   1    13    0.289
3a. Magic Johnson   1   1   2   10    0.222
3b. Larry Bird   0   2   4    10    0.222
5. George Gervin   1   0   1    6    0.133
6. Gus Williams   0   1   0    3    0.067
7. Moses Malone   0   0   1    1    0.022

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Caldwell Jones

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Caldwell Jones    3   1   1    19    0.422
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  2   0   2    12   0.267
3. Bobby Jones   1   2   0    11    0.244
4. Sam Lacey    1   1   1    9    0.200
5. Tree Rollins    0   2   2    8    0.178
6. Dennis Johnson    1   0   1    6    0.133
7. Bob Lanier    1   0   0    5    0.111
8. Dan Roundfield    0   1   0    3    0.067
8. Julius Erving    0   1   0    3    0.067
8. Moses Malone    0   1   0    3    0.067
11. Jack Sikma    0   0   1    1    0.022
11. Dave Cowens    0   0   1    1    0.022

Retro Player of the Year — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (10)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 13 1 0 0 0   137   0.979
2. Julius Erving  0  12  2  0  0   94   0.671
3. Larry Bird  1  1  10  2  0   73   0.521
4. Magic Johnson  0  0  1  6  4   27   0.193
5. Moses Malone  0  0  1  3  4   18    0.129
6. George Gervin   0  0  0  1  2   5   0.036
7a. Gus Williams   0  0  0  0  3   3   0.021
7b. Bob Lanier  0  0  0  1  0   3   0.021
7b. Paul Westphal   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.021
10. Marques Johnson   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.007

In the prior project, there were 22 votes, with Dr. Positivity and penbeast overlapping. With their prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 34* total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 33 1 0 0 0   337   0.991
2. Julius Erving  0  31  3  0  0   232   0.682
3. Larry Bird  1  1  21  10  1   153   0.450
4. Moses Malone  0  1  7  6  11   71    0.209
5. Magic Johnson  0  0  2  11  13   56   0.165
6. George Gervin   0  0  1  5  4   24   0.071
7a. Gus Williams   0  0  0  0  3   3   0.009
7b. Bob Lanier  0  0  0  1  0   3   0.009
7b. Paul Westphal   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.009
10. Marques Johnson   0  0  0  0  2   1   0.006

1981 thread will open shortly.

[ceoofkobefans]

Votes are tallied. I recorded 13 voters: Djoker, AEnigma, Ardee, B-Mitch 30, ILikeShaiGuys, ShaqAttac, Dr. Positivity, Penbeast, One_and_Done, capfan33, 70sFan, Narigo, trelos, and eminence*. Penbeast, One_and_Done, ShaqAttac, Narigo, and eminence* abstained from voting for Offensive and Defensive Player of the Year. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1979-80 Results

(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (6)

Code: Select all

Player       1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  7   1   0    38   0.844
2. Julius Erving  0   4   1    13    0.289
3a. Magic Johnson   1   1   2   10    0.222
3b. Larry Bird   0   2   4    10    0.222
5. George Gervin   1   0   1    6    0.133
6. Gus Williams   0   1   0    3    0.067
7. Moses Malone   0   0   1    1    0.022

(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — Caldwell Jones

Code: Select all

Player         1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. Caldwell Jones    3   1   1    19    0.422
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar  2   0   2    12   0.267
3. Bobby Jones   1   2   0    11    0.244
4. Sam Lacey    1   1   1    9    0.200
5. Tree Rollins    0   2   2    8    0.178
6. Dennis Johnson    1   0   1    6    0.133
7. Bob Lanier    1   0   0    5    0.111
8. Dan Roundfield    0   1   0    3    0.067
8. Julius Erving    0   1   0    3    0.067
8. Moses Malone    0   1   0    3    0.067
11. Jack Sikma    0   0   1    1    0.022
11. Dave Cowens    0   0   1    1    0.022

Retro Player of the Year — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (10)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 13 1 0 0 0   137   0.979
2. Julius Erving  0  12  2  0  0   94   0.671
3. Larry Bird  1  1  10  2  0   73   0.521
4. Magic Johnson  0  0  1  6  4   27   0.193
5. Moses Malone  0  0  1  3  4   18    0.129
6. George Gervin   0  0  0  1  2   5   0.036
7a. Gus Williams   0  0  0  0  3   3   0.021
7b. Bob Lanier  0  0  0  1  0   3   0.021
7b. Paul Westphal   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.021
10. Marques Johnson   0  0  0  0  1   1   0.007

In the prior project, there were 22 votes, with Dr. Positivity and penbeast overlapping. With their prior ballots removed, these are the aggregated results of the two projects across 34* total ballots:

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Player   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts  POY Shares
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 33 1 0 0 0   337   0.991
2. Julius Erving  0  31  3  0  0   232   0.682
3. Larry Bird  1  1  21  10  1   153   0.450
4. Moses Malone  0  1  7  6  11   71    0.209
5. Magic Johnson  0  0  2  11  13   56   0.165
6. George Gervin   0  0  1  5  4   24   0.071
7a. Gus Williams   0  0  0  0  3   3   0.009
7b. Bob Lanier  0  0  0  1  0   3   0.009
7b. Paul Westphal   0  0  0  1  0   3   0.009
10. Marques Johnson   0  0  0  0  2   1   0.006

1981 thread will open shortly.

You missed my vote

[AEnigma]

You missed my vote

I recorded it; the mistake there is that I wrote capfan33 in place of your name. Fixed.

[OhayoKD]

Since this is my first voting post, I think I should go over my criteria and what I look at. Unlike a lot of people here, I rely on box score stats, though I acknowledge they don’t capture the full picture of a player’s contributions. Offense-wise, this is less of a problem, but with defense, I try to supplement it by looking at how the player’s team performed overall in that regard. For offense, I tend to emphasize high volume scoring efficiency over other stuff.

High volume(and high quality) playmaking probably correlates better with offensive results